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Airborne toxic event

Zeus

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Herbie Hancock

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That was actually a good, even-handed breakdown.  Pos rep.  
 
What I don’t understand about this is why, in the age of cheap microelectronics, do we not have hotbox detectors on the cars themselves?  
While the video of the burning bearings is wild, it’s possible it didn’t go by a defect detector during that 20+ mile run before the axle sheered off.  Obviously stuff like dragging equipment and car counting needs to be done via trackside equipment, but hotbox should be relatively easy.  
 
I’m sure the answer is money


I’m not gonna say it’s not money because you and I both know the only factor in decision making for these large entities is the dollar, but the cost benefit analysis would have to be heavily in favor of more of them.

One of the few accurate things posted upthread were the profits that this industry produces. It is absolutely incredible. When a train derails, or in industry terms “hits the dirt”, the line owner instantly begins losing money at a staggering rate. Like 7 digits worth of loss every hour in the first four hours, and it begins to rapidly increase every hour after that. That’s just in lost revenue from trains being rerouted and the subsequent closure of that portion of track.

Now add in the cleanup, environmental remediation, reconstruction of track and so on and it is a huge number. I have actually seen them come in and lay new track around an active derailment in order to get the traffic moving again. That was absolutely not cheap, but it was cheaper than not doing it. I would have to think that would be the case with more of the Hotbox detectors. The potential cost savings those devices could produce would seemingly outweigh their operational cost by a huge margin.
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Aqua Buddha

Aqua Buddha 14596

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5 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

Anyone want to chime in on this video? What the fuck is up with that water? 

 

 

Why do all the alt-right people so suddenly care about corporations polluting the environment?  People in Flint still can't drink the water and they're unconcerned about that.  

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InkaUtexas

InkaUtexas 25940

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6 minutes ago, Aqua Buddha said:

Why do all the alt-right people so suddenly care about corporations polluting the environment?  People in Flint still can't drink the water and they're unconcerned about that.  

Dude, just asking a question. I agree with you. Flint is a national stain. We have lots of them when it comes to the environment. Was just curious since it looks like what you can see floating around boat docks. 

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TwiceHorn

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https://www.dep.pa.gov/OurCommonWealth/pages/Article.aspx?post=45

Quote

A sheen is "an iridescent appearance on the surface of the water." The iridescent, lustrous appearance could be caused by a petroleum spill finding its way into the water - or the sheen could be a naturally occurring result of iron bacteria. Iron bacteria are small living organisms which naturally occur in soil, shallow groundwater, and surface waters and are harmless to the environment. 

Article says if the sheen spot stays together after disturbance, it's oil, if it breaks up, it's probably not.

That looks to be iron bacteria.

Edited by TwiceHorn
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Herbie Hancock

Herbie Hancock 7348

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20 minutes ago, Herbie Hancock said:

Without looking anything up, pretty much every chemical that produces that kind of sheen on water is petroleum based. Hydrocarbons have a specific gravity of
In short: I’m not saying it’s not possible, but I have a lot more questions than can be answered by this video from Jack Posobiec

Fucking Immamac fix your shit. I posted and edited this three times and it still isn’t half of what I typed. I’ll try and retype below 

Without looking anything up, pretty much every chemical that produces that kind of sheen on water is petroleum based. Hydrocarbons have a specific gravity of < 1 meaning they float on water.  Vinyl chloride also has an SH of <  1. The chances that the chemicals in this derailment formed some sort of reaction that produced a chemical that is heavier than water is possible, but highly unlikely. 
 


In short: I’m not saying it’s not possible, but I have a lot more questions than can be answered by this video from Jack Posobiec

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Herbie Hancock

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There are on average 1000 derailments per year. Every train in the entire country carries hazardous materials. Less than 10% of the aforementioned derailments results in any leaks or spillage. The only reason you’re hearing about them now is because the national media has hyper focused on it because it is what gets clicks. It’s the flavor of the week

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Zeus

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10 minutes ago, Herbie Hancock said:

There are on average 1000 derailments per year. Every train in the entire country carries hazardous materials. Less than 10% of the aforementioned derailments results in any leaks or spillage. The only reason you’re hearing about them now is because the national media has hyper focused on it because it is what gets clicks. It’s the flavor of the week

I don't watch the news or do much on twatter, but I thought it was under reported if anything. Isn't everyone obsessed with UFOs right now? 

 

 

Supposedly a car in new England after some rain...

1676599895143005-pol.jpg

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Herbie Hancock

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I haven't really tracked this, but do I understand correctly that they thought the best response to a vinyl chloride spill was to set the thing on fire?

I haven’t and probably won’t read anything on this for a good while. The “news” and the white papers don’t usually jive with each other so forgive me for speaking in generalities if the question has already been answered. That being said, the consequences of all actions and inactions were weighed and a liquid flare was deemed the lesser of all evils given the situation. Everything was taken into account in regards to groundwater pollution, air pollution, etc.

The question that I have is were the townspeople given ample notice/warning of this flare before it was implemented.
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TexasHooch

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Motherfuckers.

https://www.newsnationnow.com/us-news/midwest/train-derailment-east-palestine-resident-refuses-sign-form/

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EAST PALESTINE, Ohio (NewsNation) — Just weeks after a train carrying toxic chemicals derailed in East Palestine, Ohio, some residents say they are being asked to sign contracts they fear could prevent them from suing later on.

Katlyn Schwarzwaelder and her boyfriend Chris Wells live just down the tracks from where the Norfolk Southern train derailed and released hazardous material.

Last week, Schwarzwaelder says, Norfolk Southern came by to test for toxins in her home. But before doing so, she was asked to sign a document.

“We were told they were an independent testing agency, they were escorted by the EPA,” Schwarzwaelder explained. “Before they could enter the premises, they handed us a contract. The contract was essentially to be able to get onto the property, but also at the bottom was a hold harmless agreement.” 

The document states that the landowner agrees to “hold harmless Unified Command” from “any and all legal claims, personal injury or property damage.”

Schwarzwaelder says she refused to sign it.

U.S. Sen J.D. Vance of Ohio is outraged.

“I talked to a woman this morning, she told me about an indemnification agreement she was asked to sign, and I looked at it and I was in disbelief,” said Vance. “We called Norfolk Southern and the excuse they gave, which is unbelievable, was that it was an accidental indemnification agreement.”

 

 

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Gengs1

Gengs1 2583

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15 hours ago, Herbie Hancock said:

There are on average 1000 derailments per year. Every train in the entire country carries hazardous materials. Less than 10% of the aforementioned derailments results in any leaks or spillage. The only reason you’re hearing about them now is because the national media has hyper focused on it because it is what gets clicks. It’s the flavor of the week

Maybe we should care about it and all, people lives on the line and would improve the supply chain if less train derailments but maybe the train companies would have to spend more $ on safety, maint etc but they won’t 

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atomheartbevo

atomheartbevo 89668

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20 hours ago, Zeus said:

Also, not to get cloak room but are all of these train derailments revenge for the NS pipeline sabotage?

Fuck off with the Russian propaganda.  The Russians were the only ones that benefitted from it being sabotaged, they publicly blamed England, and if Russia truly believed that England had attacked the pipeline, you would think they would actually try to do something, but they didn't, because they know they fucking did it.

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Zeus

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Neil Donahue, a professor chemistry at Carnegie Mellon University in nearby Pittsburgh, said he worries that the burning could have formed dioxins, which are created from burning chlorinated carbon materials.

“Vinyl chloride is bad, dioxins are worse as carcinogens and that comes from burning,” Donahue said.

Dioxins are a group of persistent environmental pollutants that last in the ground and body for years and have been one of the major environmental problems and controversies in the United States.

Dr. Lynn Goldman, dean of George Washington University's School of Public Health, agrees this is a possible risk, but is more concerned about uncombusted vinyl chloride vapors that could be lurking in the immediate vicinity.

"Until there has been a thorough assessment, the soot as well as any other materials should in my opinion be treated as contaminated by vinyl chloride and/or dioxins or other contaminants until proven otherwise,” she said.

https://www.wbal.com/article/603256/133/explainer-toxic-gases-connected-to-ohio-train-derailment

 

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freyguy

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Yeah, you took vinyl chloride, which is a monomer, applied a bunch of heat to it, thinking it was just going to magically burn up like gasoline into CO2 & H20. Instead, you're going to get every reaction between total combustion and polymerization. That in-between shit is really nasty....

 

Noone said, "but wait, Chlorine doesn't combust, it only reacts. What's it gonna turn in to?"

 

Instead, they went, "fuck it, let's blow it up like a Jerry Bruckheimer movie and see what happens"

 

I mean this is a 1960s solution to a chemical spill, what the hell?

 

 

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Captainant

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8 hours ago, freyguy said:

I mean this is a 1960s solution to a chemical spill, what the hell?

We'll we've rolled back most of the clean air and clean water acts that were put enacted in the 70s, so that makes sense. Hell, the trains carrying tons of highly explosive and toxic materials used a braking system that was designed during the civil war lol. The rail companies are loath to do ANYTHING that may hurt their ability to generate record profits and buy back ten billion bucks in shares while taking away sick leave from their rail workers 

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Herbie Hancock

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Yeah, you took vinyl chloride, which is a monomer, applied a bunch of heat to it, thinking it was just going to magically burn up like gasoline into CO2 & H20. Instead, you're going to get every reaction between total combustion and polymerization. That in-between shit is really nasty....
 
Noone said, "but wait, Chlorine doesn't combust, it only reacts. What's it gonna turn in to?"
 
Instead, they went, "fuck it, let's blow it up like a Jerry Bruckheimer movie and see what happens"
 
I mean this is a 1960s solution to a chemical spill, what the hell?
 
 




I may have the timeline fucked up, but wasn't the train already on fire and the fire was impinging on the VC cars? Polymerization began to occur leading to a rapid increase in pressure on several of the cars and the very real possibility of detonation? So instead of waiting for it to go boom, catch on fire anyways and spread shit everywhere, not to mention the ensuing blast damage that would also occur they decided to do a liquid flare as the lesser of two evils?
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Captainant

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man the more we learn, the worse it looks.

https://www.freightwaves.com/news/norfolk-southern-eliminated-key-maintenance-role-in-derailment-region-union-says

Three years ago, Norfolk Southern employed five “electronic leaders” that specialize in maintaining devices like hot-box detectors. Now they have zero in the operational region where the derailment happened. A derailment that was preceded by at least twenty miles of a car in a hot-box state, throwing heat and sparks up into a car with civil-war era brakes carrying highly toxic and explosive material.

But hey, at least NS was able to save a few hundred million on maintenance and pass it on to their shareholders! Profits be praised!

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TwiceHorn

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17 minutes ago, Captainant said:

man the more we learn, the worse it looks.

https://www.freightwaves.com/news/norfolk-southern-eliminated-key-maintenance-role-in-derailment-region-union-says

Three years ago, Norfolk Southern employed five “electronic leaders” that specialize in maintaining devices like hot-box detectors. Now they have zero in the operational region where the derailment happened. A derailment that was preceded by at least twenty miles of a car in a hot-box state, throwing heat and sparks up into a car with civil-war era brakes carrying highly toxic and explosive material.

But hey, at least NS was able to save a few hundred million on maintenance and pass it on to their shareholders! Profits be praised!

It's kind of interesting.  That white paper above, which touts one kind of "hotbox detector," declares that infrared wayside detectors don't work very well in the first place.  One of the reasons being that they're spaced too far apart.  According to that article, one of them functioned correctly but too late to avert the disaster.  Not clear whether the one 25 miles earlier functioned correctly or if the hotbox developed over the interval between detectors.

There seems to be a multitude of cost-driven decisions here.  What kind of detector to use, how many and how far apart should they be, and who should maintain them, if they're maintained at all.

It really does seem that an onboard detector associated with every bearing or axle is the best solution.

 

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bullzak

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48 minutes ago, Herbie Hancock said:

I can't imagine the decision to not have or utilize those detectors is cost related. The RR loses millions per hour when a line is closed. The cost benefit analysis is so one-sided I can't fathom anyone being that stupid as to discontinue/not implement the devices due to their price tag.

SWA just proved that kind of stuff is cost related. Wall St is driven by quarterly earnings. A lot of C-Suite people think nothing bad will ever happen and plan accordingly. Goes great until it doesn't. 

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Herbie Hancock

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SWA just proved that kind of stuff is cost related. Wall St is driven by quarterly earnings. A lot of C-Suite people think nothing bad will ever happen and plan accordingly. Goes great until it doesn't. 

Apples and onions. SWA had no incentive to improve their antiquated bullshit because the negative effects of it never really affected their profits unless the NTSB fines them, and even then it's nothing substantial. The EPA also has a lot more bite to go with their bark than the NTSB. Not to mention NS will be held responsible for everyone affected by this incident. Any victims from the SWA debacle getting made whole? No.

Even if none of the chemicals on that train had leaked, this event still would have still cost NS millions if not tens of millions. There are enough instances in the last two decades of spills from derailments costing 8-10 figures for there to be plenty of incentive for them to have those devices.
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Captainant

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17 minutes ago, Herbie Hancock said:


Apples and onions. SWA had no incentive to improve their antiquated bullshit because the negative effects of it never really affected their profits unless the NTSB fines them, and even then it's nothing substantial. The EPA also has a lot more bite to go with their bark than the NTSB. Not to mention NS will be held responsible for everyone affected by this incident. Any victims from the SWA debacle getting made whole? No.

Even if none of the chemicals on that train had leaked, this event still would have still cost NS millions if not tens of millions. There are enough instances in the last two decades of spills from derailments costing 8-10 figures for there to be plenty of incentive for them to have those devices.

Tell me you never work with know-nothing MBA holding execs, without telling me you never work with know-nothing MBA holding execs. To these idiots, any kind of corner cutting or taking on of technical debt is acceptable as long as is it makes next quarter more profitable. To hell with the quarter after that, that's future you's problem!

Also, I find it laughable that you think any victims of the NS toxic train will be made whole. You must not pay attention much, we don't expect corporations to make people whole when harmed - we only expect corporations to be made whole when a person harms them. Ain't shit gonna happen. Otherwise you're a damn commie pinko trying to kill jobs with regulations!

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TwiceHorn

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1 minute ago, Captainant said:

Tell me you never work with know-nothing MBA holding execs, without telling me you never work with know-nothing MBA holding execs. To these idiots, any kind of corner cutting or taking on of technical debt is acceptable as long as is make next quarter more profitable. To hell with the quarter after that, that's future you's problem!

Also, I find it laughable that you think any victims of the NS toxic train will be made whole. You must not pay attention much, we don't expect corporations to make people whole when harmed - we only expect corporations to be made whole when a person harms them. Ain't shit gonna happen. Otherwise you're a damn commie pinko trying to kill jobs with regulations!

Yeah, Lee Iacocca is holding on line 1.

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Herbie Hancock

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20 minutes ago, Captainant said:

Tell me you never work with know-nothing MBA holding execs, without telling me you never work with know-nothing MBA holding execs. To these idiots, any kind of corner cutting or taking on of technical debt is acceptable as long as is it makes next quarter more profitable. To hell with the quarter after that, that's future you's problem!

Also, I find it laughable that you think any victims of the NS toxic train will be made whole. You must not pay attention much, we don't expect corporations to make people whole when harmed - we only expect corporations to be made whole when a person harms them. Ain't shit gonna happen. Otherwise you're a damn commie pinko trying to kill jobs with regulations!

You're right I don't work with anyone with an MBA. I do, however, have quite a bit of hazmat experience and experience working with various railroads. Even been to a derailment or two in the last decade. I have seen them spend $20 million to save $1 million. 
 

Made whole wasn't the best choice of words because who is to say what someone's life/well-being is worth. I'm quite certain if there any that suffer any health issues from this incident they would say there is no amount of money that would make what they're experiencing worth it. What I should have said is there will be a lot of people that have a legitimate claim to compensation from NS and the dollar amount shelled out will be substantial. 

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Captainant

Captainant 27669

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32 minutes ago, Herbie Hancock said:

What I should have said is there will be a lot of people that have a legitimate claim to compensation from NS and the dollar amount shelled out will be substantial. 

100% agree that many people have a legitimate claim to compensation, but I really don't think the dollar amount is going to be even a fraction of what is needed to make things right.

The ENTIRE point of building a corporation is to limit liabilities and protect its shareholders from consequences or debts incurred by the corporation. I'm sure it'll cost NS a bucket a money to climb out of this pit, but none of its shareholders (that were enriched by cutting corners until they accidentally poisoned an entire geographical region) will feel any of that pain. They get to walk away and continue to extract profitability from future businesses at the cost of public health and safety. Privatized profits and socialized losses and all that.

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Captainant

Captainant 27669

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Oh great, Houston is getting in on the Ohio vinyl chloride water

https://www.khou.com/article/news/local/east-palestine-ohio-train-derailment-water-deer-park-texas/285-382ff001-a946-46a2-bcdf-e8388ef98de4

Just ship it down to Point Comfort and dump it, it'll probably improve the water quality at this point

 

edit: oh yeah and they're injecting the poisoned waste water into the Texas ground because O&G says "fuck you we got ours". God bless frackers.

Edited by Captainant
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Fudge Nuggets

Fudge Nuggets 19190

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On 2/16/2023 at 2:28 PM, Herbie Hancock said:

There’s also this really cool thing called a consist that is with the engineer at all times that tells how many cars are in the train, and it lists them in order from back to front. It has all of the information on the cargo in that car that you could ever need, the MSDS for that cargo, where it came from, where it’s going, and a whole bunch of other trivial details

How does that work when the train is engulfed in flames?

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