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Patrick Mahomes

ztejas

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SpiralOut

SpiralOut 1818

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If Andy and Kelce hang around for another few years, Mahomes could easily have a fistful of rings and still potentially have 10+ years of a career left.  

Unless a career ending injury happens or Reid dips out now and the Chiefs completely bungle the transition, he's going to be the GOAT.  

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Make em eat Taco Bell

Make em eat Taco Bell 1549

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suppose the mediocre Jimmy G doesn't miss the bomb in Q4 of the SB a few years ago and the Niners win. Suppose Hurts doesn't fumble 6.  PM is 0-3 in the big game and this high praise evaporates, or doesn't exist at all.  Give it another 3-5 years before this becomes a serious talk. Joe Burrow might bring the gold in the meantime.  It's a long way to go. 

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Bevo

Bevo 13590

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2 hours ago, Make em eat Taco Bell said:

suppose the mediocre Jimmy G doesn't miss the bomb in Q4 of the SB a few years ago and the Niners win. Suppose Hurts doesn't fumble 6.  PM is 0-3 in the big game and this high praise evaporates, or doesn't exist at all.  Give it another 3-5 years before this becomes a serious talk. Joe Burrow might bring the gold in the meantime.  It's a long way to go. 

He could be my wingman anytime.

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BurntOrange&White

BurntOrange&White 39934

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5 hours ago, shadow_operative said:

ryan clark said on espn that he has him in his top 3 with brady and montana.

After last night I tend to agree with that but I'm not sure I'd put him at 3 just yet though.

 

1. Brady

2. Montana

3. Manning

4. Mahommes

5. Take your pick of Elway, Favre, Brees, or Marino here.

 

I think that would be my top 4/5 right now. I think we will need to see his longevity now.

Edited by BurntOrange&White
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DigglerontheHoof

DigglerontheHoof 21207

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9 hours ago, Make em eat Taco Bell said:

2 sb wins exactly

Bart Starr, Roger Staubach, Bob Griese, Jim Plunkett, Ben R.,  and John Elway.  I think that's it. 

 

9 hours ago, ztejas said:

I think Mahomes is pretty clearly better than all of those guys. 

More athletic than most of them?  Perhaps, but Staubach and Elway were both great athletes and used their legs in an era when the QB wasn't protected like a crown jewel.  Hell, Staubach played/ran in an era when a QB was red meat for the defense.

Mahomes will definitely be one of the top 5 or even top 2 or 3 when all is said and done.  But IMO any QB who has the bulk of their career after 2000 needs to be graded differently b/c not only are the QBs more protected but so are the receivers.  And the old-school QBs played in an era where the running game was much more of a focus and never had four receivers and a TE regularly go out in patterns. 

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13 minutes ago, Uncle Nate said:

I am as big of a Mahomes fan as there is, but I do think we should wait until he's at least old enough for that next big car insurance discount before we start hiring the Mt. Rushmore of Football sculptors.

 

That's where I am at too.  He is easily my favorite player in the league today, both for football and his alma-mater.  At our SuperBowl watch party, of course similar discussions were happening and I'm like, "Why don't we just enjoy it for what it is?  His work ( hopefully) is far from complete, but regardless, it has been and might continue to be one hell of a ride."  I tell my kids that watching PMIII is the closest thing I've seen in football to watching Jordan in hoops or Gretzky in hockey*, but then last night (drunkass) people are saying Aikman is better or Montana was.  Fuck, why does it matter today?

*just saying the game watching experience is similar when he takes over.

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tbone_

tbone_ 14134

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Impossible to answer the question without a qualifier. Are we judging best career, or who was the best in their prime?

Because he’s nowhere near Brady, and closer but still not to the level of Montana or Bradshaw when it comes to career yet. Aikman has 3. A whole bunch of other dudes have two. But he’s obviously still playing so that’s not even a question.

I always like the question of who would you take in their prime. In other words, who was the best when at their best. You could straight up make an argument for Mahomes here.

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BonzoMontreaux

BonzoMontreaux 1061

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11 hours ago, Doze said:

Joe Montana had Jerry Rice and all them. 

mon.jpg

Nope.  Montana had Rice for 2 championships.  In fact during the 80's 49ers had a total of 5 players that were on all 4 championship teams.  Contrasting that with Pittsburgh teams of the 70s that had like 30 dudes with 4 rings.  As others have mentioned it was a different game when Montana and Bradshaw played too.  Just watch old Super Bowl highlights and the difference between now and then is stark.

Back to Mahomes...

I literally said 'What the Fuck' when I saw him get picked based on his time at Tech.  It's definitely like a Brady and Belichek pairing with him and Reid.  They were made for one another.  Mahomes and these young guys that are rolling in have made Pro Football fun to watch again, at least for me.  That game last night was Montana-esque for sure but let's see if he can keep it clean and win when it is on the line again.  Montana never lost a Super Bowl and never tossed an interception... and yes, I am a giant Montana homer.  Chiefs management and coaching have done a great job managing the roster around Mahomes too.  They have 1 starting OL from the last Super Bowl win.  Philadelphia lines were getting all the love but KC's revamped OL kept Mahomes clean.  Chiefs have the makings of a dynasty with everything they have right now.

 

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Had Enough

Had Enough 2083

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Back to Mahomes...
I literally said 'What the Fuck' when I saw him get picked based on his time at Tech.  It's definitely like a Brady and Belichek pairing with him and Reid.  They were made for one another.  Mahomes and these young guys that are rolling in have made Pro Football fun to watch again, at least for me.  That game last night was Montana-esque for sure but let's see if he can keep it clean and win when it is on the line again. 
 


The Chiefs will have a difficult time winning more because there’s better competition and more playmaking QBs. AFC and NFC both have quality. Their division helps, but it’s not devoid of much talent like the Pats division was for a number of years.

I’m not sure Mahomes didn’t play better when they lost to the Bucs. The difference was the totality of his team. They blocked. They didn’t drop passes. Special teams and D contributed.

Montana won them and that’s what you want, but the AFC competition was somewhat weak. There’s also the game ending pick dropped by Billups I believe. But he did live thru the era of anything goes against the QB. That’s massive as I’d assume all QBs played through multiple concussions.

If we are saying who’s the best based on their peak, it is Mahomes. He simply makes plays that others can’t. He’s pretty consistent. If you base it on Super Bowl wins or compiled stats, then obviously not him. Super Bowl wins he won’t get. Stats, we’ll see.
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BurntOrange&White

BurntOrange&White 39934

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3 minutes ago, Had Enough said:

The Chiefs will have a difficult time winning more because there’s better competition and more playmaking QBs. AFC and NFC both have quality. Their division helps, but it’s not devoid of much talent like the Pats division was for a number of years.

I'll be interested to see how Denver does with Payton as the helm. If the Chargers ever get a coach worth a shit they'll be pretty dangerous and have a lot of talent.

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PTINS

PTINS 3472

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Mahomes has led KC to 5 straight AFC Championship games, going to the 3 Super Bowls and winning 2 of the 3.  He has clearly been less than 100% for the past 3 games, but still made amazing plays down the road to lead his team to big wins.  

His is fortunate to play for Andy Reid, who finally has the QB he always wanted. Patrick is still in his 20's. He still has some time to mature and grow up before he finds his place among the NFL greats, but the group is getting smaller.

 

 

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BurntOrange&White

BurntOrange&White 39934

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5 minutes ago, Had Enough said:

If we are saying who’s the best based on their peak, it is Mahomes. He simply makes plays that others can’t. He’s pretty consistent. If you base it on Super Bowl wins or compiled stats, then obviously not him. Super Bowl wins he won’t get. Stats, we’ll see.

If he can get to the point of 4 super bowl trophies then I think there will be a really close argument between him and Brady. If he continues to play like he has he will crush every yardage and touchdown metric currently. 

Brady

89,215 yards passing and 649 passing touchdowns.

 

Mahommes 

24,241 yards passing and 192 passing touchdowns. 

He's on pace to break those records, it will come down to longevity.

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gernblansten

gernblansten 3197

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He's currently the best, or one of the best, passers in a pass happy league that gives offenses every advantage and bubble wraps QBs. Seems premature to put him in the top 3, 5 or 10 all time after 5 years. IMHO, seemingly disrespects a number of past QBs and the NFL in which they played. He's a great player. His place in history is still to be determined.

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PTINS

PTINS 3472

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Mahomes has the luxury of playing for KC, an organization that personifies that word. They have been that way since the day one, a really long time ago.

The Hunt's have never made this about them, always standing behind the scenes.  So rare in professional sports.

Andy Reid has always wanted a QB like Mahomes to run his offense, and he will continue to thrive in that offense.

The organization, coaches, and star QB all fit the same mold. It's hard not to like that.

Great place for Bijan to hang his hat.

 

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BonzoMontreaux

BonzoMontreaux 1061

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12 minutes ago, Had Enough said:

 


The Chiefs will have a difficult time winning more because there’s better competition and more playmaking QBs. AFC and NFC both have quality. Their division helps, but it’s not devoid of much talent like the Pats division was for a number of years.

I’m not sure Mahomes didn’t play better when they lost to the Bucs. The difference was the totality of his team. They blocked. They didn’t drop passes. Special teams and D contributed.

Montana won them and that’s what you want, but the AFC competition was somewhat weak. There’s also the game ending pick dropped by Billups I believe. But he did live thru the era of anything goes against the QB. That’s massive as I’d assume all QBs played through multiple concussions.

If we are saying who’s the best based on their peak, it is Mahomes. He simply makes plays that others can’t. He’s pretty consistent. If you base it on Super Bowl wins or compiled stats, then obviously not him. Super Bowl wins he won’t get. Stats, we’ll see.

 

Good points...

Agree on the AFC competition back in the 80s up to 2000 - NFC was 16-4 from 81 - 2000.  But you still have to play the game...

I also agree whole heartedly on Mahomes play making ability.  Montana had the ability to stay clean in the pocket because he could move.  He could have played PG at the College Level.  Mahomes has some other worldly vision and knack to make plays out of nothing.

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Uncle Nate

Uncle Nate 2097

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Speaking of the level of competition, and how different the game is today vs. the past when QB's weren't so protected, I would like to offer up a possible counterpoint:

The defensive players of today are way, way, way more athletic than the defensive players of 30-40 years ago.  The linebackers are so much bigger and faster, as are the d-lineman. They are literally freaks of human nature.

If you took a time machine back to the 70's and 80's, and even early 90's, and told them that in today's NFL you have defensive lineman and linebackers who are just as big or bigger running 4.4 40's, they would tell you that you are either insane or everyone is on dope.  Meanwhile, the OL have gotten bigger and more athletic, but not near to the same level as their defensive counterparts.

So yes, today's QB and offense as a whole is way more protected than in the past, but the defenses today seem way more athletic, faster, and stronger.

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Trojan Man

Trojan Man 429

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16 minutes ago, gernblansten said:

He's currently the best, or one of the best, passers in a pass happy league that gives offenses every advantage and bubble wraps QBs. Seems premature to put him in the top 3, 5 or 10 all time after 5 years. IMHO, seemingly disrespects a number of past QBs and the NFL in which they played. He's a great player. His place in history is still to be determined.

The era argument goes both ways.  Yeah, it's easier to play offense today than it was 30+ years ago.  That also means it's easier for opposing teams to rack up more points on your defense, putting more pressure on your QB and your offense to keep pace.  The Chiefs don't win yesterday if their offense doesn't score on every second half possession they had.  How many Super Bowls did Troy Aikman or Joe Montana have to score every single time they touched the ball in the second half to win it?

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Had Enough

Had Enough 2083

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I'll be interested to see how Denver does with Payton as the helm. If the Chargers ever get a coach worth a shit they'll be pretty dangerous and have a lot of talent.

Yes, the Chargers have some talent. But they just feel like the Chargers - never getting over the hump and being what they could be.

The Broncos D is pretty solid and some offensive parts too. Not sure why anyone would hire a Hackett to run things.

The Raiders also seem to get in their own way.

It’s not the hardest division, but there are some tough games there too.
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Hank Chinaski

Hank Chinaski 6315

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2 minutes ago, Uncle Nate said:

Speaking of the level of competition, and how different the game is today vs. the past when QB's weren't so protected, I would like to offer up a possible counterpoint:

The defensive players of today are way, way, way more athletic than the defensive players of 30-40 years ago.  The linebackers are so much bigger and faster, as are the d-lineman. They are literally freaks of human nature.

If you took a time machine back to the 70's and 80's, and even early 90's, and told them that in today's NFL you have defensive lineman and linebackers who are just as big or bigger running 4.4 40's, they would tell you that you are either insane or everyone is on dope.  Meanwhile, the OL have gotten bigger and more athletic, but not near to the same level as their defensive counterparts.

So yes, today's QB and offense as a whole is way more protected than in the past, but the defenses today seem way more athletic, faster, and stronger.

That’s fair, though I always kind of feel like the “increased athleticism” idea applies to all players - offense and defense. So it all sort of offsets, right?

Point is, it’s tough to compare across eras. Pure passing statistics don’t work because of all that has been mentioned here (different rules, different offensive philosophies, evolution of the game, etc).

I just feel like SB wins as a stand-alone metric of how good a QB is doesn’t make that much sense because there are too many variables that determine that (not unlike pitcher wins in baseball). 

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Uncle Nate

Uncle Nate 2097

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2 minutes ago, Hank Chinaski said:

That’s fair, though I always kind of feel like the “increased athleticism” idea applies to all players - offense and defense. So it all sort of offsets, right?

Point is, it’s tough to compare across eras. Pure passing statistics don’t work because of all that has been mentioned here (different rules, different offensive philosophies, evolution of the game, etc).

I just feel like SB wins as a stand-alone metric of how good a QB is doesn’t make that much sense because there are too many variables that determine that (not unlike pitcher wins in baseball). 

I agree completely.

But I will contend that the OL have not made the same gains in athleticism and speed that their defensive counterparts have.  Of course, defenders aren't allowed to even breathe heavily on a QB these days, so the only way they get to have a sack is if they chase the QB from behind it seems.

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Helobious

Helobious 9464

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6 hours ago, Make em eat Taco Bell said:

suppose the mediocre Jimmy G doesn't miss the bomb in Q4 of the SB a few years ago and the Niners win. Suppose Hurts doesn't fumble 6.  PM is 0-3 in the big game and this high praise evaporates, or doesn't exist at all.  Give it another 3-5 years before this becomes a serious talk. Joe Burrow might bring the gold in the meantime.  It's a long way to go. 

You can play “what if” with anyone all day long. What if Carroll doesn’t go full retard on the goaline, there goes a ring for Brady. 

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gernblansten

gernblansten 3197

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8 minutes ago, Trojan Man said:

The era argument goes both ways.  Yeah, it's easier to play offense today than it was 30+ years ago.  That also means it's easier for opposing teams to rack up more points on your defense, putting more pressure on your QB and your offense to keep pace.  The Chiefs don't win yesterday if their offense doesn't score on every second half possession they had.  How many Super Bowls did Troy Aikman or Joe Montana have to score every single time they touched the ball in the second half to win it?

You might want to step back and consider that in response to my post opining only 5 years into a career is too early to put Mahomes in the top 3, 5, or 10 QBs in the entire history of the NFL, that you focused solely on one half of one football game that occurred last night.

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Had Enough

Had Enough 2083

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That’s fair, though I always kind of feel like the “increased athleticism” idea applies to all players - offense and defense. So it all sort of offsets, right?
Point is, it’s tough to compare across eras. Pure passing statistics don’t work because of all that has been mentioned here (different rules, different offensive philosophies, evolution of the game, etc).
I just feel like SB wins as a stand-alone metric of how good a QB is doesn’t make that much sense because there are too many variables that determine that (not unlike pitcher wins in baseball). 

I tend to agree here. I’m curious about repetitions. Perhaps it’s bias, but I grew up in what I call the shittiest era of football. Late 80s to early 90s. Stiff as board athletes that may be hard to move off spots, but agility/mobility were of little concern. I wouldn’t call most of them incredibly physical either. I’m not a Cowboys fan, but that was the Jimmy Johnson influence to an extent, on defense anyway, that transitioned to a nimble defense. This also was about the time people questioned why Texas developed so few QBs. And now look. Offenses started to open up and boom QBs develop. Perhaps in addition to my bias, I’m also a bitter aging fart.

I’d say QBs today have thousands more reps, more pointed coaching and for those that are advanced more developed training methods. I’d also think more QBs of old were two way players thru high school that slowed development relative to todays guys.

Yes, guys are bigger, faster, stronger but as you said so are their teammates. And their pass catchers also have the reps and training methods.

Generally speaking as a player for whatever level it may be, I’d prefer to play in todays game and have the options of today than what I grew up with. That’s any position but maybe more so at QB.
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Trojan Man

Trojan Man 429

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2 minutes ago, gernblansten said:

You might want to step back and consider that in response to my post opining only 5 years into a career is too early to put Mahomes in the top 3, 5, or 10 QBs in the entire history of the NFL, that you focused solely on one half of one football game that occurred last night.

It's a reasonable assumption that somebody using the phrases "pass happy league that gives offenses every advantage" and "bubble wrapped QB" is making a "back in my day we walked uphill both ways to get to school" argument about how the sport was much more difficult back in the day.  I'm pointing out that the changes to the sport making certain parts of the game easier for QBs also make other parts of the game harder.  Again, how often were legendary QBs of the past in a situation where they had to score every time they had the ball in the second half to win the Super Bowl?  A lot of Super Bowl lore is built around one clutch drive winning the game.  Mahomes had to play an entire clutch second half to win.

You're right, 5 years into a career means his story is far from over.  However, Mahomes' age should be seen as a point in his favor rather than against.  At this point in Mahomes' career he is outpacing everyone not named Tom Brady, and if Mahomes wins one more ring in the next decade that catches him up with Brady at the same points in their careers.  It's football so the possibility of an injury that ends his career or turns him into a much less effective player always exists, but short of that worst case scenario I have a hard time seeing Mahomes not winning a few more rings.  I don't think he'll get to 7 rings, but given what kind of player Mahomes is and how well his franchise is run 4-5 rings feels more likely than not.

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Irieguy

Irieguy 1059

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56 minutes ago, PTINS said:

Mahomes has the luxury of playing for KC, an organization that personifies that word. They have been that way since the day one, a really long time ago.

The Hunt's have never made this about them, always standing behind the scenes.  So rare in professional sports.

Andy Reid has always wanted a QB like Mahomes to run his offense, and he will continue to thrive in that offense.

The organization, coaches, and star QB all fit the same mold. It's hard not to like that.

Great place for Bijan to hang his hat.

 

There’s 0% chance Bijan slides to 32. 

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Vic Mackey

Vic Mackey 47091

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Been a starter for 5 years now. 5 straight AFC championship game appearances. All at home (so his teams were very good every year). 3 Super Bowl appearances and 2 wins. He won't be 28 until later this year. He already has a Hall of Fame career if he never plays another down. He lost Tyreek Hill and the sexy opinion was their offense would take a hit. Casually goes out there and gets the 1 seed and puts up MVP numbers. He was able to adjust without the homerun hitting Hill and just shredded defenses in a different way. Seemed like all we heard about was Buffalo and Cincy going into the playoffs. 'Burrowhead'. What he did in the 2nd half last night reminded me of what Brady did against Seattle and Atlanta. Shredded their defense. This was an Eagles defense regarded as maybe the best in football.

Brady was the standard his career. He's retired and Mahomes is now the new standard. But he's now taking on the villain role. Early in his career, the Chiefs were beloved as he was new and they hadn't won in decades. And he was the team who could overtake Brady and the Pats. But with any team or athlete who keeps winning, the public perception for whatever turns on them and they become hated. But not sure how you can be a football fan and watch him and just hate him. Mahomes is fun as hell to watch and what he's able to do.

Going into next year, they are the favorites once again to win the West. They should be at the top or near the top of the AFC in general. Not sure when this run slows down. Cincy with Burrow is definitely a team who can slow them down and somewhat the Bills (don't believe Allen is on the level of Mahomes or Burrow, though). We will see how Lawrence and the Jags evolve. Herbert and the Chargers are an even lesser version of Dallas. Can't really count the Ravens as a threat with Lamar until they can prove they can win consistently and he can stay on the field when it matters. Will Payton turn around Denver and Russell Wilson?

I think Mahomes vs Burrow can be the next Brady vs Manning rivalry and I think it's already begun. The NFL is in good hands with the QBs they have, especially in the AFC.

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Disclaimer: I don't do the Xs and Os too in-depth, but what has always stood out to me is that KC seems to play offense like a college team. And I think that's such a huge part of their success (along with Mahomes, who makes it run).

For so long it seemed that everyone said college offenses would never make it in the NFL. It never made sense to me. Now you are seeing it spread everywhere in the league. Remember when there used to be a question about a QB because they didn't play under center in college? How many plays do you see either team run under center last night apart from QB sneaks? 

 

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Vic Mackey

Vic Mackey 47091

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And both his Super Bowl wins, he has had to put the team on his back and get the win. Sure, he had moments of help like the SF super Bowl where the defense got a key pick of Jimmy G. Long punt return last night to set up their TD to go up 8. But every time adversity hit in both his SB wins, he answered back with excellence. Scored on every single 2nd half possession and needed to. Wasn't just putting up garbage stats and scores. He needed all those scores to cut that deficit and then keep up when Philly tied the game. That final drive was as clutch as it gets, especially that long run to get deep in Philly territory. 

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