Thoughts on "Asbury Revival?"

[Brisketexan 105,192]

This is getting much chatter in the protestant church circles these past few days.  Lots of articles on it on the googles, here's a short summary one, there are others that go into a lot more depth, theological study and commentary, etc.: https://www.cnn.com/2023/02/18/us/asbury-revival-christian-what-is-cec/index.html

Much of the talk has been how this revival is unique in that it is being driven mostly by Gen Z, and propagated and spread on social media.

Quote

Video clips have gone viral, and hundreds from near and far are streaming to the campus to join the gathering, which has alternately been dubbed “a revival,” “an awakening” and “an outpouring” of the Holy Spirit.

“Since the first day, there have been countless expressions and demonstrations of radical humility, compassion, confession, consecration, and surrender unto the Lord,” said Asbury University president Kevin J. Brown in a statement posted to the school’s website. “We are witnessing the fruit of the Spirit: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, generosity, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control.”

Is there something true, real, and genuinely Christian happening there?  Maybe.

But as as cynic who has seen plenty of modern Christianity, I doubt that will be the enduring takeaway.  My expectation is that whatever this "movement" is, it will quickly be entirely coopted for the purposes of cruel, divisive "Christian Nationalism."  The movement is already being embraced enthusiastically by dominionist leaders, Christian nationalist voices, and the like.  I fully expect this will simply end up being more "we are better than you, we should treat you like shit, all in the name of Christ, which shields us from any and all criticism because 'religious freedom.'"

I'd love to be wrong. 

But I doubt that I will be.

[Rimbo 26,033]

6 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Is there something true, real, and genuinely Christian happening there?

Tell me how many people you see in the photos aren't white.

There's your answer.

It's Christian Nationalism. They're praying for Jesus to come save the United States.

[Brisketexan 105,192]

Tell me how many people you see in the photos aren't white.
There's your answer.
It's Christian Nationalism. They're praying for Jesus to come save the United States.

I suspect you’re a whole lot more right than you are wrong.
Even some of the more “traditional” “Christian” voices have noted that it thus far seems very self-focused, and rather silent on being “works” focused. More navel-gazing “look at me-ism” from the TikTok generation (this has literally been characterized as a TikTok revival, as it’s got a big presence on that platform)? Seems likely.
Will it be used by Christian nationalists to argue “see, we’re a Christian nation [well, OUR brand of that “faith,” that is]!”? Almost certainly.
There’s no reason not to be completely cynical about anything American Christian at this point in time.

[Rimbo 26,033]

5 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

I suspect you’re a whole lot more right than you are wrong.
Even some of the more “traditional” “Christian” voices have noted that it thus far seems very self-focused, and rather silent on being “works” focused. More navel-gazing “look at me-ism” from the TikTok generation (this has literally been characterized as a TikTok revival, as it’s got a big presence on that platform)? Seems likely.
Will it be used by Christian nationalists to argue “see, we’re a Christian nation [well, OUR brand of that “faith,” that is]!”? Almost certainly.
There’s no reason not to be completely cynical about anything American Christian at this point in time.

I mean... the bit about Jesus saving the USA? That much, at least, has been leaked.

There's still some good elements of Christianity out there in the USA. Not much, but it's there. I could go on a bit about it. Go full CR, perhaps. In the end, the devil won. He won by getting churches and otherwise good people to insist on believing little lies. They seemed harmless at first, but once you can reject the evidence of your own eyes for dogma, you can be led to believe in all kinds of evil and call it "righteousness."

They know not who they pray to, or what they pray for.

[KYHorn 17,133]

I went to the seminary for my masters and my wife went to the university. We live nearby and are good friends with the pastor who was preaching in chapel that day. We also know the president of the university well. They are all humble and wise individuals. Absolutely not Christian nationalists. It started not really from the sermon, but from a student who got up and described issues he had been dealing with (confession), and then others did the same and the service hasn't ended since. 

 

My wife went to the service last week, but I haven't been able to and, frankly, have been a bit skeptical. It's also not really my scene anymore, but everyone I've spoken with who has been said it's just people singing together and quietly praying. Nothing real crazy or charismatic (in the theology of worship sense). I have greatly appreciated how the leaders have shepherded this movement so far. They've turned down every request from big name preachers, news organizations, and worship leaders who, well meaning or not, risked turning it into something other than a genuine movement.

 

However, it's turned into something massive and truly beyond much of their control. They have like 20k people descending on a small college town of a few thousand. So, will there be crazies? Yes, just like with any gathering this large. They don't even have enough chapels or sanctuaries in the entire town, so people are just worshipping in the green spaces at the university. We'll see what comes of it. I imagine there will be good and bad, but the bad will be more public and the good will be more in the everyday changes people make in their hearts, minds, and actions. I can just tell you that the way this started and the way the leaders have tried to keep it centered on something real and genuine is the most encouraging part.

I know they're basically saying they're going to wrap up the actual shutting down of the normal university schedule after next week, so that'll be another significant shift. 

Edited February 20, 2023 by KYHorn

[Rimbo 26,033]

9 minutes ago, KYHorn said:

However, it's turned into something massive and truly beyond much of their control.

Don't these things always? I remember this happening with Occupy Wall Street. Though in that case, the original organizers had hoped to manipulate what should have been common cause into something more self-serving from the get-go. In this case, it'll end up politicized -- by both sides -- eliminating whatever the truth of it was.

[Deej 76,876]

38 minutes ago, Rimbo said:

Tell me how many people you see in the photos aren't white.

There's your answer.

It's Christian Nationalism. They're praying for Jesus to come save the United States.

As long as Jesus doesn't come across our southern border.

[Guest]

20 minutes ago, KYHorn said:

 It started not really from the sermon, but from a student who got up and described issues he had been dealing with (confession)

He was probably working through an ontological argument and shared some of the details.

[Brisketexan 105,192]

As long as Jesus doesn't come across our southern border.

Yeah, the actual Jesus best get to bleaching his hair and getting some blue contacts, pronto.

[Patricio Swayze 17,058]

Religion is fucking weird.

[Deej 76,876]

6 minutes ago, Patricio Swayze said:

Religion is fucking weird.

This. Spent 8 years in Catholic school. Never gave religion another thought after that. 

[Brisketexan 105,192]

Discussing this a bit with my (ordained) wife. Her take is that she’s just…watching. She believes that what initially happened in the chapel was real and spontaneous. As for all that’s come after, we’ll see. Many of her classmates are paying even closer attention, some even addressed it in their sermons this Sunday.
As for me? My immediate and visceral reaction says a lot about me, and a lot about where “American Christianity” is. Will this “movement” be used to bring healing, or to inflict pain? Based on the recent track record of the “faith,” how could you bet on anything OTHER than the second option?
My wife observed that at least the initial moments were consistent with what she’s observed - that this generation in particular is hungry for an authentic spiritual experience, one that is NOT tainted by the bullshit of the most vocal elements of Christianity. These aren’t “nones” here, they are already at a religious school in chapel. But they share some things with the rest of their generation (both good and bad): they long for real ritual and authentic connection to a sincere faith experience…but they are also a “look at me on TikTok” generation.
Nadia Bolz-Weber had an interesting take on it (including railing against immediate cynicism like mine…point taken…but I still can’t shake it): https://open.substack.com/pub/thecorners/p/on-longing-and-the-asbury-revival?utm_source=direct&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web
We’ll see where it goes. But bet on Christian Nationalism focused on inflicting pain on the weak and marginalized. Because that’s what American Christianity does.

[CooterBrown 18,022]

If it’s on TikTok it’s 100% narcissistic attention whoring.

[Rimbo 26,033]

1 hour ago, Patricio Swayze said:

Religion is fucking weird.

It's just another version of human tribalism. Religion, politics, sports fandom, furries, your local HOA... it's all the same thing.

Edited February 20, 2023 by Rimbo

[Neonmoon 38,130]

People are hammers searching for a nail

[NWBuck 8,577]

My pastor commented this afternoon: "There's a lot more to revival than a bunch of white kids singing songs and skipping classes..." (She was kidding)

Here's a perspective from Christianity Today:

Quote

I also reminded my students that we were created to worship God together in unity and in communion with one another. Thus, the worship we are experiencing in the chapel must have real-life implications for our fellowship outside of it. This is especially important as we are currently working through difficult issues around race and ethnicity.

In previous revivals, there has always been fruit that has blessed both the church and society. For instance, even secular historians acknowledge that the Second Great Awakening was pivotal to bringing about the end of slavery in our country. Likewise, I look forward to seeing what fruit God will bring from such a revival in our generation.

Something I wrote in an email to friends earlier this week (which makes more sense given that today was Transfiguration Sunday in the Common Lectionary)

Quote

I find myself reflecting on the Transfiguration (recorded in all three Gospels)- Jesus and the disciples have a literal 'mountaintop' moment where God's power is tangibly made known. The disciples (particularly Peter, of course) want to stay in that place and live in that moment, but Jesus instead leaves and heads to a village where He continues the ministry of healing.

So, if a "revival" is primarily about reviving our hearts, our minds, our spirits... I'm all in favor of that. But it seems that "revival" should be about bringing the dead back to life, the dry bones of our churches and nation to be made flesh and blood so that healing can occur.

It's got to be more than just symbolism and pageantry (meant descriptively, not pejoratively)... there has to be substance to our (intentional pronoun) spirituality. Or, as the writer of James puts it in Chapter 2, "So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead." And it's from that death that we need to be revived.

And, of course, the Occam's Razor explanation: Report: Asbury University Revival Started Night Before Huge Group Project Was Due

 

 

[Brisketexan 105,192]

My pastor commented this afternoon: "There's a lot more to revival than a bunch of white kids singing songs and skipping classes..." (She was kidding)
Here's a perspective from Christianity Today:

I also reminded my students that we were created to worship God together in unity and in communion with one another. Thus, the worship we are experiencing in the chapel must have real-life implications for our fellowship outside of it. This is especially important as we are currently working through difficult issues around race and ethnicity.
In previous revivals, there has always been fruit that has blessed both the church and society. For instance, even secular historians acknowledge that the Second Great Awakening was pivotal to bringing about the end of slavery in our country. Likewise, I look forward to seeing what fruit God will bring from such a revival in our generation.

Something I wrote in an email to friends earlier this week (which makes more sense given that today was Transfiguration Sunday in the Common Lectionary)

I find myself reflecting on the Transfiguration (recorded in all three Gospels)- Jesus and the disciples have a literal 'mountaintop' moment where God's power is tangibly made known. The disciples (particularly Peter, of course) want to stay in that place and live in that moment, but Jesus instead leaves and heads to a village where He continues the ministry of healing.
So, if a "revival" is primarily about reviving our hearts, our minds, our spirits... I'm all in favor of that. But it seems that "revival" should be about bringing the dead back to life, the dry bones of our churches and nation to be made flesh and blood so that healing can occur.
It's got to be more than just symbolism and pageantry (meant descriptively, not pejoratively)... there has to be substance to our (intentional pronoun) spirituality. Or, as the writer of James puts it in Chapter 2, "So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead." And it's from that death that we need to be revived.

And, of course, the Occam's Razor explanation: Report: Asbury University Revival Started Night Before Huge Group Project Was Due
   
Yeah, I read the Christianity Today piece (thoughtful), and yours is far from the first reference to James I’ve seen in the discussion.
The problem is, the “works” of dominant American Christianity are, ummm, usually a negative.

[NWBuck 8,577]

4 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

 Yeah, I read the Christianity Today piece (thoughtful), and yours is far from the first reference to James I’ve seen in the discussion.
The problem is, the “works” of dominant American Christianity are, ummm, usually a negative.

True- But those "works" also inspired the Civil Right movement... so, fingers crossed??

Edited February 20, 2023 by NWBuck

[InkaUtexas 26,030]

Just follow Jah and everything will be alright. 

Damn you all did not smoke enough bud at UT. Time to change that. (And only slightly kidding)

[HamsterHookah 112]

There's a miracle in the works
I can feel it
There's revival in the church
I believe it
I believe it

Reignite us, reawaken
Breath of God, come breathe again
Like the dry bones started shaking
All that died will live again
Oh, the miracle You're making
The beginning not the end
Eternity is waiting
To see Your church alive again

[Mole 4,333]

Having watched their president speak at one of their services after this all started, he seems to be doing this for the right reasons. He seems like a humble, decent man. They are handling this as well as could be expected.

I’ve seen a few things where the nationalists have tried to use this, but nothing suggesting that they are actually involved in any meaningful way — just some sad sacks from a distance shouting, “look at me!” That’s to be expected, even with a genuine movement, and it shouldn’t detract from what’s happening. Perhaps the revival will lead the nationalists to repent from their wicked ideology? Or maybe God has already give them over to a depraved mind.

I get that “Jesus save America” has become the Christian nationalist thing, but it’s also pretty common among the rest of Christians. You don’t have to be a believer to recognize that our culture is deeply broken. There may be disagreements on what are the broken parts (the non-believers are more often right imo), but we all know that something is wrong.

If you believe that Jesus transforms hearts and minds, it seems like spiritual revival would be a good starting point — “Jesus, save America.” One problem with the nationalists is that they don’t actually believe that, so they use Jesus as a weapon for their own power. But hoping for a spiritual movement that will lead to Godly wisdom — pure, peaceable, gentle, open to reason, full of good works — well, Jesus save America. Revival starts with repentance, so there’s your test on who is being spiritually transformed and who is cynically using this.

Honestly, if we all took a few weeks off to sing songs together — even really terrible songs — and consider the needs of those around us we’d all be much better for it. If that’s all that happens here, that seems like a good thing.

[TwiceHorn 31,517]

11 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

Discussing this a bit with my (ordained) wife. Her take is that she’s just…watching. She believes that what initially happened in the chapel was real and spontaneous. As for all that’s come after, we’ll see. Many of her classmates are paying even closer attention, some even addressed it in their sermons this Sunday.
As for me? My immediate and visceral reaction says a lot about me, and a lot about where “American Christianity” is. Will this “movement” be used to bring healing, or to inflict pain? Based on the recent track record of the “faith,” how could you bet on anything OTHER than the second option?
My wife observed that at least the initial moments were consistent with what she’s observed - that this generation in particular is hungry for an authentic spiritual experience, one that is NOT tainted by the bullshit of the most vocal elements of Christianity. These aren’t “nones” here, they are already at a religious school in chapel. But they share some things with the rest of their generation (both good and bad): they long for real ritual and authentic connection to a sincere faith experience…but they are also a “look at me on TikTok” generation.
Nadia Bolz-Weber had an interesting take on it (including railing against immediate cynicism like mine…point taken…but I still can’t shake it): https://open.substack.com/pub/thecorners/p/on-longing-and-the-asbury-revival?utm_source=direct&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web
We’ll see where it goes. But bet on Christian Nationalism focused on inflicting pain on the weak and marginalized. Because that’s what American Christianity does.

I had to dig into this a bit.  I came across it from a Pence reference to a similar event held there, and that sent my antennae up.

As a lifelong Methodist, I had never heard of Asbury U despite the obvious reference to Bishop Francis Asbury, an early American Methodist bishop.  It is related to the Wesleyan/Methodist tradition of faith without works is dead.

Like brisket, my initial reaction to anything publicly religious these days is skeptical.

My sense, like many of you, is that Asbury U is a pretty inoffensive place with a religious bent, and this started authentically.  But, it is highly susceptible to being corrupted and used by the American ersatz-Christians.

[South Austin 52,541]

I’m a skeptic like Brisket, and am waiting for the Marjorie Taylor Greenes of this country to co-op this event and use it for political theater.

[KYHorn 17,133]

11 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

I had to dig into this a bit.  I came across it from a Pence reference to a similar event held there, and that sent my antennae up.

As a lifelong Methodist, I had never heard of Asbury U despite the obvious reference to Bishop Francis Asbury, an early American Methodist bishop.  It is related to the Wesleyan/Methodist tradition of faith without works is dead.

Like brisket, my initial reaction to anything publicly religious these days is skeptical.

My sense, like many of you, is that Asbury U is a pretty inoffensive place with a religious bent, and this started authentically.  But, it is highly susceptible to being corrupted and used by the American ersatz-Christians.

There is a history of revivals at Asbury. The one that occurred in 1970 was discussed frequently around both campuses while I was there. It also received fairly widespread news coverage and started as a chapel service that just didn't end. It was also sparked by confession. This one is longer lasting and much more far-reaching. That's not necessarily to detract from it's authenticity- just to provide historical and cultural context. Despite the conversations around past "revivals", it has only occurred every few decades. To be clear, this is all largely despite the administrators' attempts to limit publicity, fanfare, and spectators. They just announced that they're closing the service to anyone over 25 to help maintain the original character of the movement.

[lemonlime 5,503]

8 hours ago, NWBuck said:

True- But those "works" also inspired the Civil Right movement... so, fingers crossed??

Were southern based White churches involved in the Civil Rights movement, or more likely to be segregationist?  Weren't most of the churches involved in the Civil Rights movement, at least in places like small town Kentucky Black churches?

[KYHorn 17,133]

30 minutes ago, lemonlime said:

Were southern based White churches involved in the Civil Rights movement, or more likely to be segregationist?  Weren't most of the churches involved in the Civil Rights movement, at least in places like small town Kentucky Black churches?

I don't know about "more likely" or "most", as Kentucky was at a cultural crossroads in the civil war, but there was an ardent abolitionist movement in Kentucky that was tied to religion, including the founding of the first interracial college in the South by John Fee (a minister), as well as prominent abolitionists like Cassius M Clay, and Justice Harlan. They certainly faced resistance, but also found support. Transylvania Seminary (now Transylvania College) was also founded by abolitionists.

I also don't really know how vital this information is, one way or another, to determining whether the current events will lead to positive social change.

Edited February 20, 2023 by KYHorn

[Gengs1 2,583]

If Jesus came back and was a the darker side in skin color, those people would nail him to a cross for disrespecting the real Jesus 

[lemonlime 5,503]

20 minutes ago, KYHorn said:

I don't know about "more likely" or "most", as Kentucky was at a cultural crossroads in the civil war, but there was an ardent abolitionist movement in Kentucky that was tied to religion, including the founding of the first interracial college in the South by John Fee (a minister), as well as prominent abolitionists like Cassius M Clay, and Justice Harlan. They certainly faced resistance, but also found support. Transylvania Seminary (now Transylvania College) was also founded by abolitionists.

I also don't really know how vital this information is, one way or another, to determining whether the current events will lead to positive social change.

I guess I'm skeptical that this universally White group is going to lead to positive social change at a college that didn't admit it's first Black student until 1967.

[HamsterHookah 112]

3 hours ago, Mole said:

Having watched their president speak at one of their services after this all started, he seems to be doing this for the right reasons. He seems like a humble, decent man. They are handling this as well as could be expected.

I’ve seen a few things where the nationalists have tried to use this, but nothing suggesting that they are actually involved in any meaningful way — just some sad sacks from a distance shouting, “look at me!” That’s to be expected, even with a genuine movement, and it shouldn’t detract from what’s happening. Perhaps the revival will lead the nationalists to repent from their wicked ideology? Or maybe God has already give them over to a depraved mind.

I get that “Jesus save America” has become the Christian nationalist thing, but it’s also pretty common among the rest of Christians. You don’t have to be a believer to recognize that our culture is deeply broken. There may be disagreements on what are the broken parts (the non-believers are more often right imo), but we all know that something is wrong.

If you believe that Jesus transforms hearts and minds, it seems like spiritual revival would be a good starting point — “Jesus, save America.” One problem with the nationalists is that they don’t actually believe that, so they use Jesus as a weapon for their own power. But hoping for a spiritual movement that will lead to Godly wisdom — pure, peaceable, gentle, open to reason, full of good works — well, Jesus save America. Revival starts with repentance, so there’s your test on who is being spiritually transformed and who is cynically using this.

Honestly, if we all took a few weeks off to sing songs together — even really terrible songs — and consider the needs of those around us we’d all be much better for it. If that’s all that happens here, that seems like a good thing.

Yes. Yes. Yes.

[Macanudo 13,005]

5 hours ago, Mole said:

You don’t have to be a believer to recognize that our culture is deeply broken.

 

A very significant majority of what is broken is because of Christianity ans Christians in this country. 

That isn't going to change enough any time soon.

[BrickHorn 18,262]

I’m starting a business selling shirts that say “I spent two weeks praying for eternal salvation at Asbury University, and all I got was this lousy t-shirt.”

[Celery Man 20,984]

I'll pray that out of this comes a movement in American Christianity back towards following Christ and living the gospel, but I'm skeptical that this is what is happening.

[Henry Hill 3,156]

Does Asbury ask its congregation to tithe and yet still pays no taxes? If so, still a grift.

[Brisketexan 105,192]

A very significant majority of what is broken is because of Christianity ans Christians in this country. 
That isn't going to change enough any time soon.

Correct.
I think that American Christianity is beyond saving, and its only destiny is to be a force for domination, pain, cruelty, and Christofascism.
Any other fate will require a genuine, sincere, “living the gospels” revival of both a magnitude and commitment that I just don’t think our society has in it.
Would love to be proven wrong. But when it comes to predicting whether American society will choose shittiness or decency, those predictions have been no-brainers for quite a while now.

[Samson's Wig 3,194]

Young people are more disengaged, isolated, and afraid than they have been in generations.  Of course they're seeking something that makes them feel safe.  The time is ripe for cult leaders to go to work, not unlike the supposed 4th Great Awakening in the late sixties and early seventies. That was not really a revival either, nor was the one following WWII. Both were times when young people didn't like the world being handed to them by older generations and sought alternatives.  Wake me up when we have an authentic 18th or 19th-century style awakening (not likely ever to happen again).  Until then, it's just a continuation of the same circle jerk that gave us the Christian Coalition, Jerry Falwell, and all the rest of the complete bullshit of manipulating the intense feelings of youth for political and monetary gain.   I'm sure some genuine feelings and concerns were being addressed when this was kicked off, but c'mon, it's not going to amount to anything unless they can somehow attach this to the outrage over Rhiana's fully clothed super bowl performance and ride that wave to some more money in the coffers and weaponized religion in government.

We might see a genuine awakening of religion again in this country at some point, but I highly doubt it happens until we have massive societal collapse. Despite the media's best attempts to make us think that the country is falling apart, the reality is things are going pretty fucking well for the majority of people. Religion is not likely to see any kind of major growth as most people don't turn to it unless times are truly terrible.

The Asbury story won't move the needle one bit for culture at large. Not enough people care.

[HamsterHookah 112]

4 minutes ago, Samson's Wig said:

Young people are more disengaged, isolated, and afraid than they have been in generations.  Of course they're seeking something that makes them feel safe.  The time is ripe for cult leaders to go to work, not unlike the supposed 4th Great Awakening in the late sixties and early seventies. That was not really a revival either, nor was the one following WWII. Both were times when young people didn't like the world being handed to them by older generations and sought alternatives.  Wake me up when we have an authentic 18th or 19th-century style awakening (not likely ever to happen again).  Until then, it's just a continuation of the same circle jerk that gave us the Christian Coalition, Jerry Falwell, and all the rest of the complete bullshit of manipulating the intense feelings of youth for political and monetary gain.   I'm sure some genuine feelings and concerns were being addressed when this was kicked off, but c'mon, it's not going to amount to anything unless they can somehow attach this to the outrage over Rhiana's fully clothed super bowl performance and ride that wave to some more money in the coffers and weaponized religion in government.

We might see a genuine awakening of religion again in this country at some point, but I highly doubt it happens until we have massive societal collapse. Despite the media's best attempts to make us think that the country is falling apart, the reality is things are going pretty fucking well for the majority of people. Religion is not likely to see any kind of major growth as most people don't turn to it unless times are truly terrible.

The Asbury story won't move the needle one bit for culture at large. Not enough people care.

User name checks out? Or doesn't? I don't know, haven't read Judges 16 in a while.

['stache 21,827]

18 hours ago, Patricio Swayze said:

Religion is fucking weird.

I seriously cannot fathom how the vast majority of the 8 billion humans, with all of our cognitive abilities, insist on believing ancient tales as absolute truth, and that their sect's interpretations are the only correct interpretation, all without a single shred of tangible proof. I find religion fascinating from a historical perspective, going back to the first of our ancestors to worship the sun or the moon or the water. But that so many believe things like the ark story as literal truth is just incomprehensible to me. It is impossible that the story is real, it makes a lot more sense if taken for the artistic conveyance of a story, even in the context of religion. It is impossible as a literal historical event. Grow up already.

Edited February 20, 2023 by 'stache

[Brisketexan 105,192]

1 hour ago, Samson's Wig said:

Young people are more disengaged, isolated, and afraid than they have been in generations.  Of course they're seeking something that makes them feel safe.  The time is ripe for cult leaders to go to work, not unlike the supposed 4th Great Awakening in the late sixties and early seventies. That was not really a revival either, nor was the one following WWII. Both were times when young people didn't like the world being handed to them by older generations and sought alternatives.  Wake me up when we have an authentic 18th or 19th-century style awakening (not likely ever to happen again).  Until then, it's just a continuation of the same circle jerk that gave us the Christian Coalition, Jerry Falwell, and all the rest of the complete bullshit of manipulating the intense feelings of youth for political and monetary gain.   I'm sure some genuine feelings and concerns were being addressed when this was kicked off, but c'mon, it's not going to amount to anything unless they can somehow attach this to the outrage over Rhiana's fully clothed super bowl performance and ride that wave to some more money in the coffers and weaponized religion in government.

Again, far be it from me to derail your pessimism -- I share it.

But there IS an interesting undercurrent here with how younger people are interacting with and practicing faith.  They have been my wife's core ministry group for over 20 years now: the "spiritual but not religious," the nones, the "nones and dones," people who grew up in but were hurt by "the church," etc.  These are people who 1) hunger for ritual and a faith connection, 2) often believe sincerely in the core gospel messages (you know, the ones where Jesus said love people, and treat the least of us with kindness, as opposed to American Jesus, who wants us to carry ARs, be cruel to anyone different, etc.), and 3) absolutely loathe what American Christianity has become (Christofascist cruelty).  I have to think that there's a similar group that also exists within faith communities as well, without the "we've left The Church" part.

A Matthew 25 gospel-based "revival" of Christianity would be, well, miraculous.  And maybe there was/is a seed of that in this particular movement and moment.  But the behemoth that is American Christofascism will either crush that seed or swallow it, graft it on to its poisonous tree, and use it to grow even more poisonous fruit.  When you say "Christianity" in this country, the overwhelming dominant force is that of cruelty and domination; the Matthew 25 strain is but a tiny thread.  I wish there was a Matthew 25 movement that stood a chance.  But it doesn't.

[Brisketexan 105,192]

17 minutes ago, 'stache said:

I seriously cannot fathom how the vast majority of the 8 billion humans, with all of our cognitive abilities, insist on believing ancient tales as absolute truth, and that their sect's interpretations are the only correct interpretation, all without a single shred of tangible proof. I find religion fascinating from a historical perspective, going back to the first of our ancestors to worship the sun or the moon or the water. But that so many believe things like the ark story as literal truth is just incomprehensible to me. It is impossible that the story is real, it makes a lot more sense if taken for the artistic conveyance of a story, even in the context of religion. It is impossible as a literal historical event. Grow up already.

Religion as you describe it -- absolutely.

Religion as allegory to aid in human understanding of an incredible universe, which has (and this is MY belief, but I know I'm not alone) the divine woven into it?  That makes lots of sense.  "God" is that great power that is and will remain beyond our human ability to fully grasp and understand.  And when we see the laws of the universe -- physics, mathematics, which go layers deep, and then layers deeper, as we continue to peel them back and get the barest of understandings -- we see the divine.  If the language of the divine is physics, and math, then this great mystery takes on a level of profound beauty.  And yes, among the most basic laws are those that apply when some of that matter achieves consciousness: be kind.  That's part of why I loved Everything, Everywhere, All at Once.  That's the universe it posited.  But I am also humble enough to know that I don't understand, won't ever understand, and may be not just a little bit but actually entirely wrong.

I believe that matter that has achieved consciousness carries a spark of the divine.  And thus, as my coalesced stardust interacts with your coalesced stardust, I should treat you as if you are divine.  Because you are.  Which, by the way, is Matthew 25, re-written with a better understanding of modern physics and the nature of the universe than mankind had 2000 years ago.  Which is also any number of spiritual texts written with that same modern understanding.  

Sectarianism, and using religion for separation, is the exact opposite of the role of the divine in the universe.  And I see us, especially modern American Christian us, as fully committed to that path.  And I can't tell you how much I hate it, and how much it angers me.  To make it simpler, my wife has had a magnet on our fridge for the past several years that says "Jesus would slap the shit out of you."  I'm down with that.

[South Austin 52,541]

26 minutes ago, 'stache said:

But that so many believe things like the ark story as literal truth is just incomprehensible to me. It is impossible that the story is real, it makes a lot more sense if taken for the artistic conveyance of a story, even in the context of religion. It is impossible as a literal historical event. Grow up already.

Were you there?

[TwiceHorn 31,517]

2 minutes ago, South Austin said:

Were you there?

Pix or it didn't happen.

[Celery Man 20,984]

i bet they started out with more than two pigs

[Brisketexan 105,192]

5 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

Pix or it didn't happen.

I mean, I googled the first humans, and.....if you keep clicking the links, it led to some pretty good pics.

[Armybrat 40,862]

19 hours ago, Deej said:

This. Spent 8 years in Catholic school. Never gave religion another thought after that. 

I did a total of 9 years hard time in Catholic schools.

Got married in the Catholic Church, but soon lapsed. Mrs. Brat has carried on however, and is very devout. I admire her for her strong faith.

 

[RDCanecutter 26,462]

It's cool that they've been praying for 2 weeks and all, but it ain't a sermon until the snake handlin starts up.

[Brisketexan 105,192]

Just now, RDCanecutter said:

It's cool that they've been praying for 2 weeks and all, but it ain't a sermon until the snake handlin starts up.

And it isn't a FULL white protestant service until the bland casseroles are set out in the Fellowship Hall.

CSB: quite a few years back, our pretty white, affluent W. Austin church did a joint MLK day service with the fine folks at Ebenezer Baptist.  After, we had a joint potluck.  The delta in the quality/gloriousness of the contributions was on par with a hypothetical football matchup between Asbury University and Alabama.  And I'll never forget when I went back for seconds (because you're goddamned right I did), I was going to get the last scoop of the magical cheese grits someone from Ebenezer had brought....until our pastor saw me coming, jumped in front, took 'em for himself, and smiled at me as he did so.  I had to respect that sonofabitch - he was a good N. Carolina man, and he knew what was up.

[Pescado_Rojo 19,427]

1 hour ago, South Austin said:

Were you there?

NAME 3 SONGS!!

[NWBuck 8,577]

2 hours ago, RDCanecutter said:

It's cool that they've been praying for 2 weeks and all, but it ain't a sermon until the snake handlin starts up.

"You want signs? Well... Here's the proof Jesus gave us!" 

Obligatory:

 

[Beau Vine 54,341]

3 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

And it isn't a FULL white protestant service until the bland casseroles are set out in the Fellowship Hall.

What about the Tube Steak Dinner?

[Gatorubet 30,280]

23 hours ago, Deej said:

As long as Jesus doesn't come across our southern border. - Herod

fify