Thoughts on "Asbury Revival?"

Mole · February 21, 2023

7 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

A Matthew 25 gospel-based "revival" of Christianity would be, well, miraculous. And maybe there was/is a seed of that in this particular movement and moment. But the behemoth that is American Christofascism will either crush that seed or swallow it, graft it on to its poisonous tree, and use it to grow even more poisonous fruit. When you say "Christianity" in this country, the overwhelming dominant force is that of cruelty and domination; the Matthew 25 strain is but a tiny thread. I wish there was a Matthew 25 movement that stood a chance. But it doesn't.

A few semi-related and possibly contradictory points:

1. For some time, my hope has been a wave of repentance to sweep through the American church. Both personal repentance and corporate repentance. What a thing it would be to honestly see the harm I’ve personally caused and to change my life? And if that happened on a large scale? And then, what a thing it would be for churches to do the same — to reflect on the harm we’ve caused and change?

Everyone has a different idea of what we need to repentant from, and it’s usually mostly about what someone else or some other church needs to turn from — “they’re” too hateful, “they’ve” strayed from sound doctrine, but what would happen if Christians actually considered their own sins and their collective sins rather than the sins of others? Something about the log and the speck, or maybe straining out gnats.

If the gospel is true, all of it — the redemption and a spiritual enemy trying to undermine it — then surely the greatest way to undermine it is to turn Christians into selfish and self-righteous people no witness. The only way to combat that is massive and widespread repentance.

2. That being said, there’s a bit of an impossible situation here. Any movement or idea that gains enough traction will attract grifters and cynics. Take any movement that you support; the other side loves to point all of the hypocrisy because this or that shady person. Of course the grifters and Christian nationalists will try to glom onto this.

That doesn’t negate what may be happening any more than any other movement. That the Christian nationalists are trying to make this about themselves doesn’t mean the moment isn’t valid or that it’s being crushed. It’s just the typical noise found with any cultural phenomenon. They may be noisy, and they surely cause outsized harm, but they are still small and unimportant.

3. I appreciate how it seems like the Asbury leadership has handled this. Give space for it to happen, but keep it mostly for the kids. We need their voice. For as much as people complain about Gen Z, I’m a fan. They might just be the antidote to our present day madness.

NotActuallyALonghorn · February 21, 2023

This thread is the first I've heard about any of this, but I hope it continues to spread for the right reasons and that the inevitable grifters and Christian nationalists and anybody else who would seek to take advantage of this and twist it to fit their own agenda get flooded out by a wave of genuine people who actually want to live their lives as Christ intended. One of these days we need to wake up to the fact that Jesus only intended for there to be one Church, and while we might quibble on some of the finer points about what happens to the bread when we take communion, when the proper time to baptise someone is, what is the proper balance of grace vs works, whether you can ask a dead person to intercede on your behalf, etc...they all revolve around the same thing that almost every mainstream congregation says they agree on. Accept redemption and love your neighbor as yourself.

SHOOTER12 · February 21, 2023

On 2/19/2023 at 5:55 PM, Brisketexan said:

I fully expect this will simply end up being more "we are better than you, we should treat you like shit, all in the name of Christ, which shields us from any and all criticism because 'religious freedom.'"

I'd love to be wrong.

But I doubt that I will be.

I hope you're wrong also. If ANY of them fall into the "bolded" category, they, like so many before them, don't get it and never knew Jesus, or God in the first place.

BrickHorn · February 21, 2023

6 hours ago, NotActuallyALonghorn said:

while we might quibble on some of the finer points about what happens to the bread when we take communion

Here’s a question for you: can vegetarians take communion?

NotActuallyALonghorn · February 21, 2023

We talking Catholic vegetarians or Protestant vegetarians?

Edited February 21, 2023 by NotActuallyALonghorn

Samson's Wig · February 21, 2023

15 hours ago, Beau Vine said:

What about the Tube Steak Dinner?

That's only served in the sacristy, one helping at a time.

Beau Vine · February 21, 2023

13 hours ago, Mole said:

1. For some time, my hope has been a wave of repentance to sweep through the American church. Both personal repentance and corporate repentance. What a thing it would be to honestly see the harm I’ve personally caused and to change my life? And if that happened on a large scale? And then, what a thing it would be for churches to do the same — to reflect on the harm we’ve caused and change?

Everyone has a different idea of what we need to repentant from, and it’s usually mostly about what someone else or some other church needs to turn from — “they’re” too hateful, “they’ve” strayed from sound doctrine, but what would happen if Christians actually considered their own sins and their collective sins rather than the sins of others? Something about the log and the speck, or maybe straining out gnats.

If the gospel is true, all of it — the redemption and a spiritual enemy trying to undermine it — then surely the greatest way to undermine it is to turn Christians into selfish and self-righteous people no witness. The only way to combat that is massive and widespread repentance.

Brisketexan · February 21, 2023

12 hours ago, SHOOTER12 said:

If ANY of them fall into the "bolded" category, they, like so many before them, don't get it and never knew Jesus, or God in the first place.

Cool. I'm forcing you to go to Vegas and place your bet on how this turns out. You have to bet everything you own. How are you betting?

Brisketexan · February 21, 2023

13 hours ago, Mole said:

That the Christian nationalists are trying to make this about themselves doesn’t mean the moment isn’t valid or that it’s being crushed. It’s just the typical noise found with any cultural phenomenon. They may be noisy, and they surely cause outsized harm, but they are still small and unimportant.

"Christian Nationalism" is the dominant strain of Christianity in this country. They are not "small and unimportant." They are absolutely dominant, if not entirely in numbers (apathetic christians may well outnumber them), then absolutely in cultural and political domination and influence. American Jesus does one or more of the following things: rides a dinosaur, carries an AR, anoints Donald Trump as His successor here on earth, personally patrols the border to turn back brown people, spends all of His waking moments fighting the gays and trans, and backing the blue. Because American Christians STAND FOR THE FLAG AND KNEEL FOR THE CROSS, BY GOD!

You know that's true.

You also know that's why a shitload of Gen Z has not just turned its back on The Church, but has run away from it as fast as it can. They're savvy enough to realize that a faith that is supposedly based on "love God, and love everyone else," which actually spends all of its energy creating separation and pain, is a ginormous load of cruel bullshit that they want no part of.

The foundational, irrefutable message and mission of Christianity is in Matthew 25. American Christianity actively works AGAINST that message. This movement doesn't stand a chance, even if it is sincere.

SHOOTER12 · February 21, 2023

49 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Cool. I'm forcing you to go to Vegas and place your bet on how this turns out. You have to bet everything you own. How are you betting?

I don't bet cuz.....I suck at it.

HamsterHookah · February 21, 2023

Brisket, we get it. Point made, and taken. Thanks.

Brisketexan · February 21, 2023

Brisket, we get it. Point made, and taken. Thanks.

Kel Varnsen · February 21, 2023

.... casting of lots ...

Pig Bellmont · February 21, 2023

On 2/19/2023 at 8:45 PM, CooterBrown said:

If it’s on TikTok it’s 100% narcissistic attention whoring.

I’d like to say that this isn’t exclusive to TikTok - there are whole sects of Christianity that seem to be purely performative.

Honest question: How is this event different than any other organized religious participation? Because it seems like it comes with the same good and bad to me.

If Brisket is asking if this movement will have some powerful change or significant increase in participation in organized religion… it won’t.

GoPokes83 · February 21, 2023

Tell me how many people you see in the photos aren't white.
There's your answer.
It's Christian Nationalism. They're praying for Jesus to come save the United States.

I walked away from this comment but it’s such a douche take I came back to it. If this began at a historically black church would your opinion about it being somehow racist be the same?

Mole · February 21, 2023

https://relevantmagazine.com/faith/why-asbury-university-decided-to-end-revival-services-this-week/

Spoiler

CHURCH

Why Asbury University Decided to End Revival Services This Week

BY EMILY BROWN

FEBRUARY 21, 2023

Asbury University announced on Sunday that after 12 days of continual worship services, the Asbury Outpouring, as it’s become to be known, would be limited only to students under age 25, and by Friday, all outpouring-related services would be moved somewhere off campus.

University officials announced the new schedule Sunday night, allowing the public just one more day to visit campus to experience the outpouring for themselves.

Abby Laub, Asbury University’s director of strategic communications, told RELEVANT the age limitation was made to shift the focus back on ministering to Gen Z students.

“God has pressed Gen Z on our hearts, and He’s made that so clear,” Laub said. “This started with them, so we want to really do that justice and work with how we feel God leading us.”

The outpouring has been entirely student-led, with students leading worship services, speaking and sharing testimonies with thousands, even volunteering to hand out food and water to visitors waiting in lines. Officials have estimated that approximately 50,000 visitors have come through Wilmore, Kentucky — which has a population of 6,021 people — since February 8.

Laub also shared safety was a big factor into moving the outpouring off campus. University officials have worked closely with law enforcement and local government officials to maintain safety and help determine next steps.

“In our daily conversations, safety was a big issue,” Laub said. “With all the traffic coming in, new people coming to campus, there were conversations about how to keep students — particularly our girls — safe from all the new faces coming to campus. Even just the infrastructure of this town literally cannot sustain this.”

Students shared that while they felt honored to serve visitors, they were also ready to get back to some normalcy.

Alexandra Presta, editor for student publication The Asbury Collegian, said finding a balance between school, life and the ongoing services began to weigh on the students.

“We’re still all wrestling in that tension of recognizing what God is doing is so amazing — we’re literally in awe,” Presta said. “We’re blessed that we have been witnesses to it — but we do feel like our home had been invaded because there are people everywhere. That’s just an honest reality. The whole posture of this revival has been radical humility and loving people, and just loving in action, and so we’ve been trying to do that.

“But we don’t want people to remember us, and we don’t want people to remember Asbury,” she continued. “We just want people to remember Jesus. And now we’re in that transition of trying to obey the Bible and being commissioned to go out.”

Asbury’s decision to transition the movement off campus has been met with some negative feedback.

“People think, ‘Why would you wanna stop this?’ And I’m like, we’re not,” Presta said. “We want to expand it, but it just isn’t sustainable for our university to keep hosting. We don’t want to hoard it, because the Holy Spirit’s not limited to Hughes Auditorium. The Holy Spirit’s everywhere we go, and you can have a revival right in your living room if you’re willing to lean into His love and His grace.”

Asbury officials are still working on a solution and meeting place for future services. Laub said that the campus website would stay up-to-date with new information, but the current plan is to completely shift services away from the university by Friday.

“I don’t believe that God ever meant for Asbury to hold this,” Laub said. “I don’t believe it would be a true revival if He meant for it to just stay here in our little town. I like to picture a candle of the Holy Spirit and a flame. And Asbury has a flame that, I see as a little candle, and then the next church or the next school that comes to visit, they’ve tipped their candle and they’re taking their flame … And soon we’re all tipping the candle and just passing the flame.”

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Brisketexan · February 21, 2023

3 minutes ago, Mole said:

https://relevantmagazine.com/faith/why-asbury-university-decided-to-end-revival-services-this-week/

Hide contents

CHURCH

Why Asbury University Decided to End Revival Services This Week

BY EMILY BROWN

FEBRUARY 21, 2023

Asbury University announced on Sunday that after 12 days of continual worship services, the Asbury Outpouring, as it’s become to be known, would be limited only to students under age 25, and by Friday, all outpouring-related services would be moved somewhere off campus.

University officials announced the new schedule Sunday night, allowing the public just one more day to visit campus to experience the outpouring for themselves.

Abby Laub, Asbury University’s director of strategic communications, told RELEVANT the age limitation was made to shift the focus back on ministering to Gen Z students.

“God has pressed Gen Z on our hearts, and He’s made that so clear,” Laub said. “This started with them, so we want to really do that justice and work with how we feel God leading us.”

The outpouring has been entirely student-led, with students leading worship services, speaking and sharing testimonies with thousands, even volunteering to hand out food and water to visitors waiting in lines. Officials have estimated that approximately 50,000 visitors have come through Wilmore, Kentucky — which has a population of 6,021 people — since February 8.

Laub also shared safety was a big factor into moving the outpouring off campus. University officials have worked closely with law enforcement and local government officials to maintain safety and help determine next steps.

“In our daily conversations, safety was a big issue,” Laub said. “With all the traffic coming in, new people coming to campus, there were conversations about how to keep students — particularly our girls — safe from all the new faces coming to campus. Even just the infrastructure of this town literally cannot sustain this.”

Students shared that while they felt honored to serve visitors, they were also ready to get back to some normalcy.

Alexandra Presta, editor for student publication The Asbury Collegian, said finding a balance between school, life and the ongoing services began to weigh on the students.

“We’re still all wrestling in that tension of recognizing what God is doing is so amazing — we’re literally in awe,” Presta said. “We’re blessed that we have been witnesses to it — but we do feel like our home had been invaded because there are people everywhere. That’s just an honest reality. The whole posture of this revival has been radical humility and loving people, and just loving in action, and so we’ve been trying to do that.

“But we don’t want people to remember us, and we don’t want people to remember Asbury,” she continued. “We just want people to remember Jesus. And now we’re in that transition of trying to obey the Bible and being commissioned to go out.”

Asbury’s decision to transition the movement off campus has been met with some negative feedback.

“People think, ‘Why would you wanna stop this?’ And I’m like, we’re not,” Presta said. “We want to expand it, but it just isn’t sustainable for our university to keep hosting. We don’t want to hoard it, because the Holy Spirit’s not limited to Hughes Auditorium. The Holy Spirit’s everywhere we go, and you can have a revival right in your living room if you’re willing to lean into His love and His grace.”

Asbury officials are still working on a solution and meeting place for future services. Laub said that the campus website would stay up-to-date with new information, but the current plan is to completely shift services away from the university by Friday.

“I don’t believe that God ever meant for Asbury to hold this,” Laub said. “I don’t believe it would be a true revival if He meant for it to just stay here in our little town. I like to picture a candle of the Holy Spirit and a flame. And Asbury has a flame that, I see as a little candle, and then the next church or the next school that comes to visit, they’ve tipped their candle and they’re taking their flame … And soon we’re all tipping the candle and just passing the flame.”

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Yeah.....cool. Some practical common sense in there....along with so much expected gobbledygook. So what are they going to DO? What is their mission out into the world? What are the "works?" Or is it just more self-indulgent, feel-good proselytizing? Not a word about how they'll heed the (apocryphal) words of St. Francis of Assisi: “Preach the gospel everywhere. If necessary use words.” You know, this:

Quote

There's a wonderful legend about Saint Francis who one day informed his brethren that he planned to go into the nearby village on a preaching mission. He invited a novice to go along. On their way, they passed an injured man and Francis promptly stopped, saw to the poor fellow's needs and arranged medical care for him. They went on and soon passed a homeless man who was near starvation. Again, Francis stopped his journey and ministered to the hungry, homeless man. So it went, through the day: people in need, Francis lovingly caring for them as best he could until the sun was low in the sky. He told his novice friend it was time for them to return, now, to the monastery for evening prayers. But the young man said, "Father, you said we were coming to town to preach to the people." Francis smiled. Then he said, "My friend, that's what we've been doing all day."

When it comes to American Christianity, we should all be doubting Thomas's of the highest order.

Rimbo · February 22, 2023

3 hours ago, GoPokes83 said:

I walked away from this comment but it’s such a douche take I came back to it. If this began at a historically black church would your opinion about it being somehow racist be the same?

I don't know... has the experience of blacks in America been "somehow the same" as whites in America?

Fudge Nuggets · February 22, 2023

He's your god, they're your rules. You burn in hell.

sasquatch69 · February 22, 2023

Interesting topic and conversation here (for the most part).

I grew up in mainline churches as a church staff member's kid, sang in choirs all my life, etc. I'm really struggling with faith right now for a variety of reasons, most notably what Christianity has become for vast swaths of people - mainly, a cudgel to enforce dogma, cruelty, etc. For a long time, I was able to mostly push that aside because of my own experience: we belong to a midsize progressive church that does a lot to serve the community, welcome LGBTQ members without judgment, etc.

Being mostly away from the church for a year or so due to Covid - and seeing what it did to the congregation (and many others) in terms of engagement/attendance/you name it - has really impacted me. We're still active in terms of attendance/participation, but it just doesn't feel like home in the same way anymore.

Having said all that, two takeaways for me:
- I am rediscovering ancient ritual/liturgy as a (hopeful) way back. Evensong and compline services are quiet, contemplative, sensory, and don't require participation to still feel present (and feel some connection with the divine, however faint). Several Episcopal churches here in town offer them, among others, and I'm trying to find ways to make that part of a routine amid the craziness of family life.

- I echo the comments above about truly hoping the Asbury revival (or whatever it is) is a sign of some longing for simpler Christianity - a connection with God without the dogma, intwined politics and desire to profit off of it. I am also skeptical, and I'm trying really hard to tamp that down inside me and be hopeful, even for just a moment.

Pig Bellmont · February 22, 2023

18 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

We’re still all wrestling in that tension of recognizing what God is doing is so amazing — we’re literally in awe,” Presta said. “We’re blessed that we have been witnesses to it

I’m sorry- what is it that God is doing? God is actively intervening in lives of kids 25 and under and bringing them to your college for prayer?

If God is getting involved in our daily lives, boy, somebody should tell him there are bigger things that could use his attention

Patricio Swayze · February 22, 2023

I’m sorry- what is it that God is doing? God is actively intervening in lives of kids 25 and under and bringing them to your college for prayer?
If God is getting involved in our daily lives, boy, somebody should tell him there are bigger things that could use his attention

Well, not really. The Christian god is a egotistical narcissist.

KYHorn · February 22, 2023

47 minutes ago, sasquatch69 said:

Interesting topic and conversation here (for the most part).

I grew up in mainline churches as a church staff member's kid, sang in choirs all my life, etc. I'm really struggling with faith right now for a variety of reasons, most notably what Christianity has become for vast swaths of people - mainly, a cudgel to enforce dogma, cruelty, etc. For a long time, I was able to mostly push that aside because of my own experience: we belong to a midsize progressive church that does a lot to serve the community, welcome LGBTQ members without judgment, etc.

Being mostly away from the church for a year or so due to Covid - and seeing what it did to the congregation (and many others) in terms of engagement/attendance/you name it - has really impacted me. We're still active in terms of attendance/participation, but it just doesn't feel like home in the same way anymore.

Having said all that, two takeaways for me:
- I am rediscovering ancient ritual/liturgy as a (hopeful) way back. Evensong and compline services are quiet, contemplative, sensory, and don't require participation to still feel present (and feel some connection with the divine, however faint). Several Episcopal churches here in town offer them, among others, and I'm trying to find ways to make that part of a routine amid the craziness of family life.

- I echo the comments above about truly hoping the Asbury revival (or whatever it is) is a sign of some longing for simpler Christianity - a connection with God without the dogma, intwined politics and desire to profit off of it. I am also skeptical, and I'm trying really hard to tamp that down inside me and be hopeful, even for just a moment.

This reflects much of my experience over the past few years, and my general sentiments about the revival. Thanks for sharing.

Brisketexan · February 22, 2023

2 minutes ago, Patricio Swayze said:

Well, not really. The Christian god is a egotistical narcissist.

Yeah, that's always been a problem point for me as well. Worship you, or else I go to hell? Okay, Putin.

It's a counterpart to an other issue I've had with God, particularly the modern American Christian God. I remember in my younger days, letting out that I was pretty pissed with God, or how I wasn't on speaking terms with God at the moment. As pearl-clutching "Christians" would gasp, ask how can you say that, it's an unforgivable sin, my retort was "wait....you guys worship a God who is such a butthurt pussy that being on the outs with one random-ass dude gets him all bent out of shape? If God can't handle me being fucking pissed off, then He's not much of a God, is he?"

A shitload of our problems arise from the anthropomorphism of God (complicated by the actual Christian element of God actually becoming Man....but again, that is not inconsistent with trinitarian doctrine that God is also something else altogether). When we turn God just into another man, albeit a really powerful one with a long-ass beard and shit, then He has all the prejudices, failings, and foibles of man, which negates His divinity. If God is truly an omnipotent and omniscient presence, then God handles Brisket being pissed off at him about the same as Brisket handled it when his kids were 2-3 and would get pissed at him: let them have their feelings, and just stay steady. When they're done being pissed, I'm still there, same as I was before.

We've made God small enough for the smallest of minds to understand, and then built a box around Him and declared that God can't be anything more than what fits inside that box. And it's just a coincidence that the box has all the room necessary for all of our prejudices, hatreds, etc. Just SUPER convenient. American Christians don't worship God. They worship themselves, because that's who they imagine God to be -- exactly like them.

Patricio Swayze · February 22, 2023

Why would an omniscient and omnipotent being need, let alone want, the worship of inferior beings he created? And don’t give me this shit about how we can’t comprehend his plan (not you brisket, the Royal you).

Anyways, I’m not trying to derail y’all’s Jesus party. In fact, Jesus seems like a pretty cool dude. Likes whores, can build shit, is immortal. His dad seems like a righteous dickhead.

formermav43 · February 22, 2023

1 hour ago, Brisketexan said:

It's a counterpart to an other issue I've had with God, particularly the modern American Christian God. I remember in my younger days, letting out that I was pretty pissed with God, or how I wasn't on speaking terms with God at the moment. As pearl-clutching "Christians" would gasp, ask how can you say that, it's an unforgivable sin, my retort was "wait....you guys worship a God who is such a butthurt pussy that being on the outs with one random-ass dude gets him all bent out of shape? If God can't handle me being fucking pissed off, then He's not much of a God, is he?"

Just tell them to read Job and then get back to you.

Brisketexan · February 22, 2023

7 minutes ago, formermav43 said:

Just tell them to read Job and then get back to you.

Actually READ scripture? And try to understand it?

Bitch please. The only scripture I need to know is the part where it says if you don't believe in Jesus and have a personal relationship with him, then you're going to hell, and the part about how queers are the devil. I don't know what parts those actually ARE, I just know they're in my Bible somewhere:

BabaYaga · February 22, 2023

Well I don't believe that heaven waits
For only those who congregate
I like to think of God as love
He's down below, he's up above
He's watchin' people, everywhere
He knows who does and doesn't care
And I'm an ordinary man
Sometimes I wonder who I am

Brisketexan · February 22, 2023

Just now, BabaYaga said:

Well I don't believe that heaven waits
For only those who congregate
I like to think of God as love
He's down below, he's up above
He's watchin' people, everywhere
He knows who does and doesn't care
And I'm an ordinary man
Sometimes I wonder who I am

I maintain that "Lord, I hope this day is good" is a damn fine prayer. Personal, vernacular, relatable. Lotta f'n wisdom in the collected works of Don Williams. I still miss that sonofabitch.

Mole · February 22, 2023

Anger with God is the subject of many of the Psalms as well.

Psalm 10:

Why, Lord, do you stand far off? Why do you hide yourself in times of trouble? In his arrogance the wicked man hunts down the weak, who are caught in the schemes he devises. He boasts about the cravings of his heart; he blesses the greedy and reviles the Lord.

Patricio Swayze · February 22, 2023

formermav43 · February 22, 2023

8 minutes ago, Mole said:

Anger with God is the subject of many of the Psalms as well.

Psalm 10:

Why, Lord, do you stand far off? Why do you hide yourself in times of trouble? In his arrogance the wicked man hunts down the weak, who are caught in the schemes he devises. He boasts about the cravings of his heart; he blesses the greedy and reviles the Lord.

If you extend beyond anger to just generally questioning God-complaining, not understanding, feeling like he is not there, etc.-more than a third of the Psalms are laments. It’s the most common type.

The idea that you can’t ever question is unwarranted. Lord, I believe—help my unbelief!

Patricio Swayze · February 22, 2023

I need some of y’all Christian’s to start a “Satan: Am I Evil?” thread. From the outside looking in, he seems like he was largely misunderstood and really didn’t do much to get tossed from heaven. Why doesn’t he get a chance at forgiveness?

BabaYaga · February 22, 2023

2 minutes ago, Patricio Swayze said:

Why doesn’t he get a chance at forgiveness?

He created Oklahoma and College Station......

SydneyCarton · February 22, 2023

8 minutes ago, Patricio Swayze said:

I need some of y’all Christian’s to start a “Satan: Am I Evil?” thread. From the outside looking in, he seems like he was largely misunderstood and really didn’t do much to get tossed from heaven. Why doesn’t he get a chance at forgiveness?

Edited February 22, 2023 by SydneyCarton

Patricio Swayze · February 22, 2023

I also would have accepted Iron Maiden’s Number of the Beast.

Rimbo · February 22, 2023

2 hours ago, Patricio Swayze said:

Why would an omniscient and omnipotent being need, let alone want, the worship of inferior beings he created?

I mean, the question here isn't that so much as "Why do people think this is what God wants?"

The Bible itself is different perspectives from different people over different times. The idea of who God is, and what God wants people to do, changes as you go from book to book -- because the author and their audience changes.

One example of this is King David. In Samuel/Kings, after he defeats King Saul, it takes another seven years of bloody civil war before he unites all the tribes. This is the King David who murdered Uziah over his lust for his wife, whose hands were too bloody to build the Temple. But the David in Chronicles has Israel immediately unite behind him after Saul is defeated. No mention of Bathsheba. This is the David whose heart is closest to God's. Why the difference? Because the two stories were written at different times by different authors for different reasons. The first was written during the Babylonian captivity, where the theological question of the day was, "Why have we been chased from the Promised Land?" The second was written after Judah returned to Palestine under Cyrus of Persia; the goal here was to describe a model theocratic monarchy for the new settlers to follow.

In short, the Bible is a history of humans struggling, within the context of their culture and time, to define divinity. "An eye for an eye" was incredibly merciful and progressive by the standards of the day, when culture dictated 10 eyes for an eye, ten teeth for a tooth.

So what you're describing here is, like all of it, a justification given by men, not of God.

And once you look at it that way, it becomes immediately obvious why men would want things to be this way. Because of men's desire for power.

Despite all the changes in each book of the Bible, there are common themes. One of the loudest, from beginning to end, is the desire of church leaders to mislead their flocks for their own personal gain.

It was true then, and it's true now.

Rimbo · February 22, 2023

45 minutes ago, Patricio Swayze said:

I need some of y’all Christian’s to start a “Satan: Am I Evil?” thread. From the outside looking in, he seems like he was largely misunderstood and really didn’t do much to get tossed from heaven. Why doesn’t he get a chance at forgiveness?

I mean, this isn't wrong.

The only really prominent reference to Satan is in Job, and his role there is vastly different from the modern "embodiment of evil" understanding we have today. He's part of God's crew, and has an important role: Challenging men's faith, to prove themselves.

Basically, he's God's Attorney General.

of course, by comparing Satan to a lawyer, it's easy to see how we got from there to that "embodiment of evil" thing

Brisketexan · February 22, 2023

1 minute ago, Rimbo said:

I mean, the question here isn't that so much as "Why do people think this is what God wants?"

The Bible itself is different perspectives from different people over different times. The idea of who God is, and what God wants people to do, changes as you go from book to book -- because the author and their audience changes.

One example of this is King David. In Samuel/Kings, after he defeats King Saul, it takes another seven years of bloody civil war before he unites all the tribes. This is the King David who murdered Uziah over his lust for his wife, whose hands were too bloody to build the Temple. But the David in Chronicles has Israel immediately unite behind him after Saul is defeated. No mention of Bathsheba. This is the David whose heart is closest to God's. Why the difference? Because the two stories were written at different times by different authors for different reasons. The first was written during the Babylonian captivity, where the theological question of the day was, "Why have we been chased from the Promised Land?" The second was written after Judah returned to Palestine under Cyrus of Persia; the goal here was to describe a model theocratic monarchy for the new settlers to follow.

In short, the Bible is a history of humans struggling, within the context of their culture and time, to define divinity. "An eye for an eye" was incredibly merciful and progressive by the standards of the day, when culture dictated 10 eyes for an eye, ten teeth for a tooth.

So what you're describing here is, like all of it, a justification given by men, not of God.

And once you look at it that way, it becomes immediately obvious why men would want things to be this way. Because of men's desire for power.

Despite all the changes in each book of the Bible, there are common themes. One of the loudest, from beginning to end, is the desire of church leaders to mislead their flocks for their own personal gain.

It was true then, and it's true now.

Yet the part that is consistently ignored -- and OH, the irony that this is perhaps most ignored by "Christianity" -- is that he core message of the Gospels is the OPPOSITE of "gain and use earthly power." Jesus, and the overarching theme of the Gospels, is one of simplicity, humility, and having a servant's heart.

In the Gospels, Jesus, the "king of kings," doesn't sit on a throne and demand that people wash his feet because he is the Son of God. Instead, he acts and dresses as a slave might, and washes the feet of his disciples. The Gospels are not fucking subtle.

Yet the bulk -- and certainly the loudest -- of Christians view Jesus and Christianity as this dumbass did:

sidis · February 22, 2023

1 hour ago, formermav43 said:

Just tell them to read Job and then get back to you.

or they could just watch trading places featuring god as randolph duke, satan as mortimer duke, job as winthorpe, and the land of uz as rundown, shitty ass 1980's philadelphia.

as for asbury, performative nonsense elevated to an even greater level of superficial horseshit by virtue of being compelled by the ultimate actualization of shallow, attention-seeking, and virtue-signaling behavior...tiktok and instagram. "put your arms up like a cultish dickweed so i can get the picture/video with the chapel in the background so we can post it...then we can return to our upper-middle class lives while stepping around the actual needy on the way home to our 5,000 sqft gated house."

Brisketexan · February 22, 2023

3 minutes ago, Rimbo said:

of course, by comparing Satan to a lawyer, it's easy to see how we got from there to that "embodiment of evil" thing

I mean, as someone who bills by the hour, this whole "for all of eternity" thing has its attraction.....

Rimbo · February 22, 2023

46 minutes ago, SydneyCarton said:

Shit, man, if you're going to share that song, at least share the right version of it.

Brisketexan · February 22, 2023

Just now, sidis said:

as for asbury, performative nonsense elevated to an even greater level of superficial horseshit by virtue of being compelled by the ultimate actualization of shallow, attention-seeking, and virtue-signaling behavior...tiktok and instagram. "put your arms up like a cultish dickweed so i can get the picture/video with the chapel in the background so we can post it...then we can return to our upper-middle class lives while stepping around the actual needy on the way home to our 5,000 sqft gated house."

And a whole lot of this. "Faith without works is dead." And, gosh, if only the Gospels had something to say on making a show of your piety...oh yeah, they're directly on fucking point in Matthew: "And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men."

Ostentatious "shows" of faith, followed up by no/paltry "walking the walk" are perhaps the most devastating type of attack that can be launched against Christianity. It's not a fucking belief, or a faith. It's a WAY. You either walk it, or you don't (and BTW, even if you try to walk it, you fail a bunch, fall down, and try again).

Patricio Swayze · February 22, 2023

I have to reiterate and rephrase:

Goddamn, Christianity is weird.

(All Abrahamic religions really).

Brisketexan · February 22, 2023

13 minutes ago, Patricio Swayze said:

I have to reiterate and rephrase:

Goddamn, Christianity is weird.

(All Abrahamic religions really).

They all are.

Anything born of an era when man didn't understand shit about the universe is and will be. Insisting on being static, and not budging from beliefs about, literally, the nature of the universe that are 2,000 years old, is folly at best and insanity at worst. The only common theme is that we will never truly understand the nature of the universe. We'll understand parts of it. More than we did 2,000 years ago. But we're still just stardust, among infinite galaxies, and we don't know shit.

I'll suggests that judaism, and torah, actually has a better handle on it than the other abrahamic faiths (not necessarily as they SHOULD be held, but as they are held).

I am coalesced stardust. I am at once utterly insignificant, and singularly significant. That is, I am stardust, but when the story of the universe is written, and we read the chapter on the stardust that was me (and was many things before me, and will be many things after me), that story cannot be told without telling the story of me. My life is inextricably part of the life of the universe. A universe of power and laws of operation beyond our human capacity to comprehend. A universe with its own languages that transcend, and can be seen as divine. It is humbling. It is empowering. And it imposes a sense of obligation. I am but a moment in this universe, but I AM of this moment, and I should thus make it the best moment it can be. And that means doing so not just for me, but for all the other stardust as well. There's a reason that core truth is foundational in every faith; it is a universal truth, in the literal sense.

Shrinking down that vastness, that mystery, to an anthropomorphized God who shits on everyone who isn't of your "tribe" is the exact opposite of a transcendent, universal divinity. But, that's what humans do, because we mostly can't see shit beyond the end of our own nose.

Plus, jewish delis are awesome.

Edited February 22, 2023 by Brisketexan

Patricio Swayze · February 22, 2023

Well Brisket, what about my foreskin? I’m still pissed about that. I mean, no one even asked me if I wanted to keep it. Abraham can get fucked for going along with that shit.

Brisketexan · February 22, 2023

10 minutes ago, Patricio Swayze said:

Well Brisket, what about my foreskin? I’m still pissed about that. I mean, no one even asked me if I wanted to keep it. Abraham can get fucked for going along with that shit.

I KNOW you're not questioning the ways of the mohel. That wouldn't be.....kosher.

Pig Bellmont · February 22, 2023

2 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

I mean, as someone who bills by the hour, this whole "for all of eternity" thing has its attraction.....

Reminds me of a lawyer joke. An old attorney dies and God greets him at the gates of heaven “Wow, I just had to come in person to see the oldest man who ever lived.”

-“But God, I was only 78”

”Not according to the hours you billed”

formermav43 · February 23, 2023

33 minutes ago, Pig Bellmont said:

Reminds me of a lawyer joke. An old attorney dies and God greets him at the gates of heaven “Wow, I just had to come in person to see the oldest man who ever lived.”

-“But God, I was only 78”

”Not according to the hours you billed”

Well if we’re telling lawyer jokes about the afterlife, there’s the one about the guy who dies and goes to hell. He’s being given the tour-there’s the lake of fire, sulfurous pits, the shrieks and gnashing of teeth, you name it-when he happens upon his former attorney, locked in an embrace with a beautiful woman.

The guy protests. “Wait a minute! Why do I have to burn for all eternity, while that lawyer gets to spend it with a beautiful woman?”

The Devil turned and snarled, “Who are you to question her punishment?”

SydneyCarton · February 23, 2023

2 hours ago, Rimbo said:

Shit, man, if you're going to share that song, at least share the right version of it.

Yeah, sorry not sorry. I prefer the Metallica version. Probably because it’s what I heard first.

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