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Plastic bag ban struck down

jimmyjazz

By jimmyjazz
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South Austin

South Austin 52617

Posted
Posted
15 minutes ago, 1978horn said:

HEB charges .25 a bag if you don't have your own.  They have been doing it since the bag ban started.  Don;t know if the proceeds go anywhere, but they sell them...when they are open.

I thought they do that for the larger recyclable bags.  Would they do that if they bring back the smaller brown plastic bags?  If they think about charging for those, I'm sure their competitors will give them away for free now that they're not banned.

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1978horn

1978horn 896

Posted
Posted
1 minute ago, South Austin said:

I thought they do that for the larger recyclable bags.  Would they do that if they bring back the smaller brown plastic bags?  If they think about charging for those, I'm sure their competitors will give them away for free now that they're not banned.

Yeah, the big red ones.  Still plastic and still gets thrown away instead of being reused.

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GringoSalado

GringoSalado 1652

Posted
Posted
2 hours ago, bschoolprof said:

According to the court, the Texas Solid Waste Disposal Act.  “[a] local government . . . may not adopt an ordinance . . . to . . . prohibit or restrict, for solid waste management purposes, the sale or use of a container or package in a manner not authorized by state law”

Quote

Lets not forget Dude that keeping wildlife, um... an amphibious rodent, for... um, ya know domestic... within the city... that ain't legal either.

 

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bschoolprof

bschoolprof 6272

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, Huckleberry said:

You're missing the irony. "Lefties" are always in favor of a stronger central government. It's the "righties" that claim to be in favor of local control.

I don't think I missed it.  The OP is the typical leftist sentiment on this issue - I like the bag ban, so I don't like state law superseding local control here.  It cuts both ways.  

51 minutes ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

I'm skimming the ruling and although I am not an attorney and I am reading this while giving a presentation and leading discussion on a conference call I am deeply familiar with both the language of city ordances and the state law in this area.

Unless I'm missing something, the SC seems to believe that any container or package that winds up as solid waste is therefor a container or package used for a solid waste management purpose or the city ordinance has a solid waste management purpose in curtailing the container, and since a plastic bag is plainly a container, the state law preempts the city ordinance, despite the fact that the city has an interest in protecting other areas where bags wind up, such as the street and waterways.

That seems incredibly bizarre to me. Lawyers, read that and tell me I'm missing something.
 

I don't think it's that bizarre.  The political rhetoric around the ban - both before and after - has focused extensively on the amount of plastic in landfills.  Yes, the council had other objectives, but part of the reason for the ban was a policy argument related to solid waste disposal (i.e, landfills).  

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TwiceHorn

TwiceHorn 31538

Posted
Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

From my understanding the Federal vs State control are valid arguments since the Constitution addresses this question, and some believe the Feds have gone past the original intent or subsequent amendments.

However the Constitution doesn't continue the logic that local jurisdictions somehow take precedence over state, or federal.  In fact I thought it's not addressed at all therefore putting local authority completely at the mercy of the other 2.   The state can tell the locals how, what and why to act.  

There is a lot of truth to this.  There is an issue of federalism implicit in "local control" and the lost notion that the federal government should be limited in scope in deference to the states.

But, the ultimate politico-philosophical notion is that smaller local electoral groups ought to be paid more attention to than larger, less-local groups.

So, I think one can have strong opinions on federalism perhaps without endorsing the whole municipal > county > state issue, but if you really follow through, you have to favor the smaller, more local electoral group and their elected officials, and QED municipal > county > state.

In this particular instance, it seems that there is a state law that comprehensively addresses solid waste disposal and pollution and forbids local government from making laws in conflict with it (there's your local control issue), and it's preemptive of this local regulation.  I can't really quibble with the reasoning of the opinion.

Edited by TwiceHorn
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Rimbo

Rimbo 26125

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, Armybrat said:

We have about a dozen reusable bags. And wash them now & then for sanitary purposes.

I like them because we can carry a lot more heavy crap in them.

We got used to bringing our own bags to the store with us when we lived in China. They are these awesome thin nylon things that unfold into really quite large bags, but then roll up and snap shut into things about the size of a tennis ball.

Similar to these: https://smile.amazon.com/KINGMAS-Reusable-Eco-Friendly-Waterproof-Groceries/dp/B07CLM7LB1/ref=sr_1_10?ie=UTF8&qid=1529690700&sr=8-10&keywords=nylon+reusable+shopping+bag

Or these: https://smile.amazon.com/YUYIKES-Shopping-Reusable-Periodic-Recycling/dp/B073R8ZBNT/ref=sr_1_16?ie=UTF8&qid=1529690700&sr=8-16&keywords=nylon+reusable+shopping+bag

But much cheaper.

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TwiceHorn

TwiceHorn 31538

Posted
Posted
5 minutes ago, bschoolprof said:

I don't think I missed it.  The OP is the typical leftist sentiment on this issue - I like the bag ban, so I don't like state law superseding local control here.  It cuts both ways.  

I don't think it's that bizarre.  The political rhetoric around the ban - both before and after - has focused extensively on the amount of plastic in landfills.  Yes, the council had other objectives, but part of the reason for the ban was a policy argument related to solid waste disposal (i.e, landfills).  

Agreed. The "local interest" has nothing to do with it.  The lege was pretty clear that it was forbidding/preempting local regulation of solid waste disposal.  Now, it is possible that this is an unintended consequence of the sweeping language of the state law, but the legislature is perfectly capable of changing the law if that's what it wants to do.  If it fails to do so, then you have an issue of "local control," but this opinion only endorses state over local control in the very broadest sense, as you noted earlier.

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Bozo_Casanova

Bozo_Casanova 26569

Posted
Posted
10 minutes ago, bschoolprof said:

I don't think it's that bizarre.  The political rhetoric around the ban - both before and after - has focused extensively on the amount of plastic in landfills.  Yes, the council had other objectives, but part of the reason for the ban was a policy argument related to solid waste disposal (i.e, landfills).  

I get that, but the preempting language deals with containers used for solid waste management. The court seems to be saying that because the city is regulating a container that winds up as solid waste, the state law preempts. So does that mean I can put gas cans and paint buckets in the trash? Those are containers, after all. 

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Rimbo

Rimbo 26125

Posted
Posted

Anyway, point is, if you get the cheap-ass nylon bags like I linked to, they're super-convenient, and even if you treat 'em like shit and use them all the time, they'll last for decades.

Now here in Cali, what they did was -- instead of a ban -- they instituted a mandatory nickel-a-bag surcharge for plastic bags. Works great, because not only do I find myself saying "No I don't need a bag" even when I forgot the shopping bags, but when I do forget and have to buy a bag, the bags they give you are much better than they used to be. So you actually get, believe it or not, high-quality plastic bags.

It's a pretty good deal.

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TwiceHorn

TwiceHorn 31538

Posted
Posted (edited)
27 minutes ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

That is not either the intent or language of the state law as I read it. 

Have a look at Tex. Health & Safety Code 361.0961

 

Quote 


 

Sec. 361.0961. RESTRICTIONS ON AUTHORITY OF LOCAL GOVERNMENT OR OTHER POLITICAL SUBDIVISION. (a) A local government or other political subdivision may not adopt an ordinance, rule, or regulation to:

(1) prohibit or restrict, for solid waste management purposes, the sale or use of a container or package in a manner not authorized by state law;

(2) prohibit or restrict the processing of solid waste by a solid waste facility, except for a solid waste facility owned by the local government, permitted by the commission for that purpose in a manner not authorized by state law; or

(3) assess a fee or deposit on the sale or use of a container or package.

(b) This section does not prevent a local government or other political subdivision from complying with federal or state law or regulation. A local government or other political subdivision may take any action otherwise prohibited by this section in order to comply with federal requirements or to avoid federal or state penalties or fines.

(c) This section does not limit the authority of a local government to enact zoning ordinances.

So, no, it doesn't look like taxes or fees, at least charged by a local government, are permissible.

 

The case boils down to, basically, is a "bag" a "container or package."  I'd say the City attempted more hairsplitting than the Court.

 

There are certain instances where the judicial branch forbids action by a legislative body, as in ruling something "unconstitutional."  This is not one of those cases.  They simply ruled that local ordinances of this type conflict with state law, as written and as the Lege apparently intended.

 

The Lege is free to change it up and permit this going forward.

Edited by TwiceHorn
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PXTX

PXTX 1

Posted
Posted
3 hours ago, 52-80 said:

I don't really care do u

I for one care I much prefer not to see the trash, google is a decent source If you throw out the BS that does not have citiaionsts. If you want to witness it personally go fishing in Matagorda Bay. and observe the town Nobody knows my user name yet as I changed it after shaggy took a shit If anybody disagrees with my opinion please cite verifiable sources. However I wont bother to cite any sources  or open any PMs due to the fact that I don't give shit.

 

** sent from irrated old hippy that does really care about dissenting opions**

 

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TwiceHorn

TwiceHorn 31538

Posted
Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

That's the one - I don't read it that way. Clearly the supreme court disagrees with me, but I don't. 

 

It seems to me that this is pretty clearly directed to bottles and cans (just clap your hands), how are bags different?

Edited by TwiceHorn
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Gene Parmesan

Gene Parmesan 4015

Posted
Posted
5 minutes ago, PXTX said:

I for one care I much prefer not to see the trash, google is a decent source If you throw out the BS that does not have citiaionsts. If you want to witness it personally go fishing in Matagorda Bay. and observe the town Nobody knows my user name yet as I changed it after shaggy took a shit If anybody disagrees with my opinion please cite verifiable sources. However I wont bother to cite any sources  or open any PMs due to the fact that I don't give shit.

 

** sent from irrated old hippy that does really care about dissenting opions**

 

giphy.gif

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Neonmoon

Neonmoon 38130

Posted
Posted

Citizens and private companies will stop using plastic bags on their own. Laws won’t matter in the end. 

The same with how food consumption is changing.  Yes, crazy NY banned some things but eventually people will stop eating trans fats on their own, and companies stop serving them as a result. 

Same with plastic bags. Rights now only liberal cities have no bag policies. Eventually Target will say it doesn’t want to contribute to plastic pollution and will charge you if you need bags. Etc. 

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phdhorn

phdhorn 6224

Posted
Posted

Living out here in the Rightward conspiracy-theory terra which is Lakeway/Bee Cave, this doesn't change my life, because way out here we've never had the ban.  And I love it.  I use those plastic bags for then thousand things, they are excellent utilitarian items.  So I don't care all that much that the law affects Laredo (and might affect Austin), as long as they don't force us to abide by one.  By now, the people out here who prefer those bring-home bags have gotten accustomed to them, and I believe that in the areas that have had the ban, likewise.. most people will keep using them, and the people who never have won't.

Nevertheless, I like the fact that those who don't want to might not have to...again.

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Gene Parmesan

Gene Parmesan 4015

Posted
Posted
4 minutes ago, phdhorn said:

Living out here in the Rightward conspiracy-theory terra which is Lakeway/Bee Cave, this doesn't change my life, because way out here we've never had the ban.  And I love it.  I use those plastic bags for then thousand things, they are excellent utilitarian items.  So I don't care all that much that the law affects Laredo (and might affect Austin), as long as they don't force us to abide by one.  By now, the people out here who prefer those bring-home bags have gotten accustomed to them, and I believe that in the areas that have had the ban, likewise.. most people will keep using them, and the people who never have won't.

Nevertheless, I like the fact that those who don't want to might not have to...again.

What do you use them for?  With a family of 5 we probably reuse 4-5 a week, but accumulate 20+ a week.  Small trash can liners are really all we use them for.

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phdhorn

phdhorn 6224

Posted
Posted
47 minutes ago, Gene Parmesan said:

What do you use them for?  With a family of 5 we probably reuse 4-5 a week, but accumulate 20+ a week.  Small trash can liners are really all we use them for.

- cleaning up animal poop (stated above)
- putting stuff in when I do errands in the car and have a lot of little shit I need to carry
- carrying used lunchware (tupperware etc.) back home (wife does this a lot)
- keeping little bits of household items (e.g. packages of nuts/bolts, electrical stuff, tape, etc.) in one easy to see place so it all isn't loose in some drawer)
- carrying clothes etc. to Goodwill (4-5 bags easy to fill and carry vs. one big one)
- putting stuff into them to carry with me in rainy weather (yeah, right now that's not used much)
- lunch bags etc. when going on an outing etc.
- I even use 'em when travelling to put overnight change of clothes + toiletries if I'm e.g. staying overnight somewhere while taking a road trip)

more that I can think of right now...

Every week I take maybe 6-7 bags to recycling when I take my other stuff.  I have a large nylon laundry bag full of them.

Oh yeah, forgot one more thing... I keep a small supply in my car in case I go to HEB in Austin if I'm running errands.  Truth, actually. 😊

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Not that Bob

Not that Bob 739

Posted
Posted

I'm a "fat old person", so supposedly unteachable per Surly tribal knowledge. I always bring my own reusable bags. It's just not that difficult, Jesus! Plus they have a bitchin' Longhorn logo so I get to piss off parking lot aggies. I wish beer and soft drinks still came in returnable bottles. Again, it's just not that difficult.  

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Celery Man

Celery Man 21001

Posted
Posted

a) anything can be thrown away if you throw it away. Except the trash can itself.

b) the trick to not forgetting bags is to keep bags in your car, not to always remember to put them in before you leave (and always head to the store from your home)

Driving through McAllen a few years back it was like a western parody but sub plastic bags for tumbleweeds.

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LongestHorn

LongestHorn 759

Posted
Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, XYZ said:

Why are republicans celebrating this decision?

Rob Henneke of the Texas Public Policy Foundation, an influential conservative think tank in Austin, said the ruling had “everything to do with reining in lawless city governments” and “reaffirms the ancient principle that City’s [sic] may not pursue their policy goals by any means necessary.” Attorney General Ken Paxton said the ruling “sends the unambiguous message to all local jurisdictions in Texas that they do not get to simply ignore laws they don’t agree with.”

It isn't about the plastic bags.  It's the principle.

Edited by LongestHorn
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Hellraiser97

Hellraiser97 183

Posted
Posted
8 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

I'll bite . . . how so?

If I get unlazy, I'll dig it up the article I read about it, but essentially it goes like this:

 

1) You have to use those 'reusable' bags like you buy at HEB something like 250 times before the environmental impact of them is a net positive over the disposable ones.  It's like the Christmas tree real vs fake debate.  You need to use the fake one for 30 years before you're helping the environment.  People just aren't doing that.  You run to HEB and forget your bags or leave them in the car.  You tear them or just get them nasty and toss them out, well before the break even number.  I bet we've purchased 50 of them in the three years we've lived here, maybe more.

2) Instances of salmonella poisoning have increased significantly.  They technically can still give you the disposable ones for meat, but a lot of people use the reusable ones, or put the disposable one inside it.  

3) There was a much better solution that was completely ignored.  There's a plastic made from vegetable oil.  They use it at the AT&T conference center for the disposable drinking cups.  Once wet, it fully dissolves in something like 72 hours.  They can and do make disposable bags out of it., though they are more expensive of course than the traditional ones. If they had mandated using bags made from that for any disposable bags, points 1 & 2 are irrelevant, but that would have made too much fucking sense and didn't read as well with groups like the 'Campaign for the Environment.'

 

 

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South Austin

South Austin 52617

Posted
Posted
1 minute ago, LongestHorn said:

 Attorney General Ken Paxton said the ruling “sends the unambiguous message to all local jurisdictions in Texas that they do not get to simply ignore laws they don’t agree with.”

It isn't about the plastic bags.  It's the principal.

But what's the law that the plastic bag ban ignored? Thou shalt offer plastic bags at thy grocery store?  

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LongestHorn

LongestHorn 759

Posted
Posted
6 minutes ago, South Austin said:

But what's the law that the plastic bag ban ignored? Thou shalt offer plastic bags at thy grocery store?  

According to the Texas Solid Waste Disposal Act, local governments may not restrict or prohibit “the sale or use of a container or package.” The Laredo Merchants Association and other opponents of the local bans argued that the city’s ordinance violated this state law. Ultimately, the argument boiled down to whether a plastic bag can be considered a “container or package.” Attorneys with the city of Laredo argued that the law applied only to waste, not in the case of prohibiting bags before they become trash.

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Thetexashammer

Thetexashammer 1062

Posted
Posted
9 hours ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

That is not either the intent or language of the state law as I read it. 

From the ruling:

Quote

“Judges have no dog in this fight. Our duty is to apply the rules
fairly and equally to both sides.”5

Quote

The Texas Constitution states that city ordinances cannot conflict with state law.6 The Texas
Solid Waste Disposal Act (“the Act”) provides that “[a] local government . . . may not adopt an
ordinance . . . to . . . prohibit or restrict, for solid waste management purposes, the sale or use of a
container or package in a manner not authorized by state law”.7 The sharply contested issue here is
whether the Act preempts, and thus invalidates, a local antilitter ordinance prohibiting merchants
from providing “single use” plastic and paper bags to customers for point-of-sale purchases.8

Quote

The Ordinance declares that its purpose is to “reduce litter from discarded plastic bags” in order to
“help bring the City one step closer to being a trash-free city”.18 The Ordinance, in its words, “is not
a ban on plastic bags, but an incremental implementation plan towards a cleaner city”.19

You don't seem to read good. The ordinance itself declares its intent. 

 

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High Plains Drifter

High Plains Drifter 11052

Posted
Posted

 

9 hours ago, bschoolprof said:

I don't think I missed it.  The OP is the typical leftist sentiment on this issue - I like the bag ban, so I don't like state law superseding local control here.  It cuts both ways.  

 

True, both sides are for local control until they aren't. The difference is that its not the lefties who make "local control" a political talking point.

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zork

zork 629

Posted
Posted

These are great for shopping at ALDI or Sams since neither provides bags and the nearly always warm temperatures can affect your grocery item freshness.(wilting lettuce, melting ice cream, etc, etc)

0007874223551_A?$img_size_380x380$

https://www.samsclub.com/sams/shopper-tote-insulated-2-pk/prod21045351.ip?&source=ifpla&CAWELAID=730010300001935708&pid=_CSE_Google_PLA_1013571787&wl0=&wl1=g&wl2=c&wl3=260269102078&wl4=pla-297455083836&wl5=9027195&wl6=&wl7=&wl9=pla&wl10=1247713&wl11=online&wl12={productid}&wl13=&wl15=53139724443&wl17=1o1&veh=sem&kclid=0f9637fa-cc82-4e66-bc33-659e1ccceb88

 

We keep 2 or 3 in each vehicle and other bags inside them for boxed goods and the like.

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bolverk

bolverk 29727

Posted
Posted
12 hours ago, hayden_horn said:

remember when you used to see plastic bags littered everywhere? you probably don't, but get ready to see it again. when i travel outside of austin and see all the plastic bags everywhere, i am thankful for the bag ban.

3

 

8 hours ago, Celery Man said:

Driving through McAllen a few years back it was like a western parody but sub plastic bags for tumbleweeds.

 

Whenever I go out West Texas to see the folks, it's disheartening as hell to see all the plastic bags stuck in barbwire fences and mesquite. It always seems worse in winter when everything is dead and bare. The sight of those bags flapping in the wind is about the worst message a community could say about itself and always seems concentrated within a mile of a Walmart. Fucking sad.

How come you never see Walmart sponsoring a section of roadway to be cleaned up like other businesses?

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