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4 US Citizens Kidnapped in Matamoros

Incredulity

By Incredulity
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SL Xpress

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4 minutes ago, Gatorubet said:

Growing up in Florida I was aware that the Cuban community did not view Mexicans in a favorable manner - and would take great offense if you suggested that a Cuban was a Mexican. 

Odd isn’t it? I mean, I can understand being pissed if someone learned about my Nordic heritage and accused me of being Norwegian. Some things are just insulting.

 

Might as well assume a Belgium Flemish speaker is French. Some things are worth fighting for. 

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It’s long past time that we go full “Clear and Present Danger” on the cartels.

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DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt
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Sounds like we agree your initial idea makes for a good book but wouldn't do anything to actually solve the problems. Obviously if our demand for drugs remain sky high, there's always going to be

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SL Xpress

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1 minute ago, Helobious said:

Nothing in any of those rap sheets screams “let’s drive 2000 miles to buy drugs from a cartel” to me. Seems like small time stuff. The family did say that McGee had been to Matamoros before apparently. If they had done something to piss off a cartel there’s just no way any of them would’ve survived.

Maybe so.

I just see the woman's 8 year old daughter testing positive for a variety of drugs because social welfare required a test on a follicle of her hair - and shit had to get really bad to get to that point in the first place - and my level of sympathy went out the window, whether that's fair or not. 

The whole thing seemed weird from the get go. 4 people rent a mini van from North Carolina to drive across the border bringing over $5k in cash with them. Maybe it is a tummy tuck. But it's tough for me to give them the benefit of the doubt right now. 

Doesn't mean they deserve what happened to them, and it doesn't mean Mexican cartels are good guys just trying to protect their business interests. But the rap sheets on those four definitely represented a significant plot twist for me. It's easier for me to imagine they asked the wrong people the wrong kind of questions and got the wrong kind of attention because of it, than it is that this was a completely random hit in an effort to collect ransom money. 

But I'm not pretending I know anything. 

I had a couple of experiences going across the border in the 80s/early 90s. One in Laredo and one in Tijuana. I was a complete and utter idiot in both circumstances. Especially in Tijuana. Just no real cognizance of when I'm putting myself in terrible danger. Not adventure seeking. Not being terribly daring. Just a complete and utter blithely unaware idiot. 

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HenryJames

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3 minutes ago, SL Xpress said:

I had a couple of experiences going across the border in the 80s/early 90s. One in Laredo and one in Tijuana. I was a complete and utter idiot in both circumstances. Especially in Tijuana. Just no real cognizance of when I'm putting myself in terrible danger. Not adventure seeking. Not being terribly daring. Just a complete and utter blithely unaware idiot. 

Losin' It (1982)

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Nueces River Rat

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12 minutes ago, Helobious said:

Nothing in any of those rap sheets screams “let’s drive 2000 miles to buy drugs from a cartel” to me. Seems like small time stuff. The family did say that McGee had been to Matamoros before apparently. If they had done something to piss off a cartel there’s just no way any of them would’ve survived.

I think it really was mistaken identity. I imagine whoever gave the go ahead for the attack is missing their head right now, as it did bring some unnecessary heat down.

Could've been mistaken identity.   But how many newer model mini vans do you see in any city in Mexico much less Matamoros with North Carolina plates.?   It would be easier to suspect mistaken identity  it had Texas plates.   

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Nueces River Rat

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10 minutes ago, SL Xpress said:

 

 

 

I had a couple of experiences going across the border in the 80s/early 90s. One in Laredo and one in Tijuana. I was a complete and utter idiot in both circumstances. Especially in Tijuana. Just no real cognizance of when I'm putting myself in terrible danger. Not adventure seeking. Not being terribly daring. Just a complete and utter blithely unaware idiot. 

Most of us who were young back in those days were all the same.   I always tried and for the most part kept my alcohol consumption in check when I went because I had it burned in my mind from the many first hand stories from  older friends and family members getting in trouble with the law in the other side.  Back then it was dealing with corrupt Federales and local police deciding to pick on you for public intoxication or starting a fight with a local.   They figured if you tried to pay them off with something big at the start, you were like an ATM machine and they would try to bleed you dry while you sat in a jail cell until they decided you had no more cash and let you go home.  Rule number one in Mexico when they arrest you for something like that, do not throw them money right away.

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SL Xpress

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5 minutes ago, Nueces River Rat said:

Most of us who were young back in those days were all the same.   I always tried and for the most part kept my alcohol consumption in check when I went because I had it burned in my mind from the many first hand stories from  older friends and family members getting in trouble with the law in the other side.  Back then it was dealing with corrupt Federales and local police deciding to pick on you for public intoxication or starting a fight with a local.   They figured if you tried to pay them off with something big at the start, you were like an ATM machine and they would try to bleed you dry while you sat in a jail cell until they decided you had no more cash and let you go home.  Rule number one in Mexico when they arrest you for something like that, do not throw them money right away.

Well, I was sober (sort of) both times. First one we did a road trip with half an ounce of marijuana with four of us in the car. Shrooms, too. I drove. I didn't drink. Laredo was the standard Boys Town back then. It was dumb to take drugs across the border. The real stupid part was getting high in the car on the way back. Lo and behold, there's a border security check point 20 miles or so in. Didn't know about that. We rolled up looking like the van in Fast Times at Ridgemont High. I ended up confessing the weed was mine (it wasn't) and tossed it all into the toilet in the guardhouse and flushed. I know they had bigger fish to fry, but I was extremely grateful that one didn't end up on anyone's record. It was simply a judgement call by the guys on duty. 

Second time was while I was in the Navy. Siouxsie and the Banshees were playing in Tijuana. No one else had a huge interest in alternative rock on my ship so I went down there by myself. Don't know Spanish. High and tight military haircut. Tijuana, so people knew I was a sailor on sight. Took the light train to the border, walked to the club. At one point found myself walking through an abandoned city block with rubble all around. Looked straight out of Bakhmut. Noticed there were people sleeping in alcoves all over the place, with a fire burning in the middle of it. Got the hell out of there.

Went to the show. It was amazing. Walked back. It's like 1am in the morning. That city block was ablaze with an inferno with fire trucks all around it trying to put it out. I've vowed ever since then to report anything which looks like it might be dangerous, even if they probably have dozens of calls on it already. You never know. 

But the whole thing was idiotic on my part. The concert was fantastic, though. 

Guys used to hit the beaches at Rosarito just south of there without thinking a thing about it on the regular. But Tijuana was a different story even back then. 

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SL Xpress

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18 minutes ago, YGIFS said:

Nice callback.  Did those guys ever end up doing any other movies about life near the border?

One hit wonders. 

One of my favorite type of movies are comedies disguised as something else. I was laughing my ass off at the movie theater when this came out, but I was the only one. It's basically a screwball classic mistaken identity type comedy done with a film noir theme using horror film camera work. They have so many amazing movies, but I still think their first one is criminally underrated.

There's one scene where the protagonist buries a body in the middle of a field, but he left his headlights on so he could see what he was doing. He goes to start his car and it won't turn over. I'm rolling in the aisle with laughter, and people are looking at me like I'm the sickest person on the planet. I mean, they're not wrong, but I knew at that moment I was "getting" the filmmakers and their intent in a way that no one else was, so fuck them. 

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Nice Guy Eddie

Nice Guy Eddie 13521

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My understanding is that the woman in the group has claimed to have several cosmetic procedures in Laredo or Matamoros in the past. There's some healthy skepticism that this has only been a cover story.  Even to the point that she "advertised" to her friends on FB when she was going to Matamoros for her tummy tuck. That could have been letting them know to place their medication orders. 

Other weird elements on the internet but perhaps just rumors:

  • There was another woman on the trip but she left her ID in SC so she didn't cross into Mexico
  • The doctor's office says this person did not have an appointment, and that they do not perform that procedures on Fridays as it requires an overnight stay. 
  • One of the guys on the trip didn't even tell his wife back in SC that he was going to Mexico.
  • Why was it necessary for 5 people to make this trip?
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RDCanecutter

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13 hours ago, texasdago said:

Jimmy Fallon Shock GIF by The Tonight Show Starring Jimmy Fallon

Funny though how when I speak Spanish to Latin Americans they're always trying to figure out my accent and then we get along because I'm from Italy 

A few years back there were a slew of telenovelas with side-characters who were from Italy. If they include you in telenovelas, you're family.

I mean, it's only in the US where we decided that people from where they invented Latin are not Latino. I blame all those OCD wretches in HR.

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RDCanecutter

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2 hours ago, Gatorubet said:

Growing up in Florida I was aware that the Cuban community did not view Mexicans in a favorable manner - and would take great offense if you suggested that a Cuban was a Mexican. 

Odd isn’t it? I mean, I can understand being pissed if someone learned about my Nordic heritage and accused me of being Norwegian. Some things are just insulting.

 

So with you, take the whole "Italian when they hear the music from Rocky," and substitute "ABBA?"

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RDCanecutter

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2 hours ago, Nueces River Rat said:

Could've been mistaken identity.   But how many newer model mini vans do you see in any city in Mexico much less Matamoros with North Carolina plates.?   It would be easier to suspect mistaken identity  it had Texas plates.   

I didn't take notes, but driving around Mexico I saw US tags from lots of states. I think lots of returning roofers and chicken-plant guys just drive home with whatever they bought stateside. Not to mention that cars that would be "totaled" in the US can become drivable in Mexico after about $700 worth of local hammer-work.

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Nueces River Rat

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10 minutes ago, RDCanecutter said:

I didn't take notes, but driving around Mexico I saw US tags from lots of states. I think lots of returning roofers and chicken-plant guys just drive home with whatever they bought stateside. Not to mention that cars that would be "totaled" in the US can become drivable in Mexico after about $700 worth of local hammer-work.

Oh for sure.   That mini van or SUV was a newer model however.   You also can't rule out some people do take rentals into Mexico which I bet this was one since it had North Carolina plates and they were South Carolina residents.   Whomever was on that rental contract if it was rental might be on the hook for the cost of that vehicle because most insurance stops at the US/Mexico border and it says on the contract you can't take it into Mexico.  That's if he or she is one of the two that made it out alive. 

Edited by Nueces River Rat
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RDCanecutter

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12 minutes ago, Nueces River Rat said:

Oh for sure.   That mini van or SUV was a newer model however.   You also can't rule out some people do take rentals into Mexico which I bet this was one since it had North Carolina plates and they were South Carolina residents.   Whomever was on that rental contract if it was rental might be on the hook for the cost of that vehicle because most insurance stops at the US/Mexico border and it says on the contract you can't take it into Mexico.  That's if he or she is one of the two that made it out alive. 

Oh yeah. I missed the rental part. Once I rented a car in Waco to drive to Laredo. Rental dude's asshole was clenching buttons off the seat of his chair when I mentioned that. But I assured him the car would be in the parking garage above the Greyhound station all safe and sound.

People do odd things. Maybe they were afraid of flying, or somehow got a rental almost free. Can't imagine they thought they'd sneak something back across in it, but who knows.

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hayden_horn

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7 minutes ago, MissingInAction said:

If I walk into any "ethnic" restaurant and see a bunch of white fatties I do a 180 and GTFO.

ha was traveling last week in Barcelona in the Gothic quarter with a colleague. he's mostly strict halal, so we wander around and find a cool looking place. we go in and he looks at me says "sorry too many white people" and we ended up eating at a place with hookahs. goddamn that place was fucking great. 

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TwiceHorn

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6 hours ago, SL Xpress said:

Kind of. 

It's more like it's a critical part of how we're hardwired from an evolutionary perspective. Being able to point out a person or a group of people who are different can be an extremely effective bonding mechanism for those who view things similarly. It's natural to us. We do it for a ridiculous array of topics. Of course we're going to do it for things like how a person speaks, how a person looks, and where they're from. 

The good news is our brains are remarkable things and we can consciously choose to override our hardwiring. But it's not easy and takes a lot of conscious effort. If someone doesn't put in that effort they're going to be prejudiced. No doubt about it. Also, depending on our tribal affiliations, many affiliations end up taking a priority for us over race. My favorite example of this is Dave Chappelle talking about seeing one white guy in a gang, and saying that's the guy you have to really worry about, because no telling what he's done to be a part of their group. 

Then on the other side you have people of color who adopt every talking point of a preponderantly white group, who are then at least ostensibly accepted as "one of us."

I have a Costa Rican friend who looks down upon Mexican Americans in brutal ways. "They come here and make their neighborhoods look like Little Mexico. If they want to do that so bad, why don't they stay in Mexico?" Uh...okay? 

I don't disagree.

But the instinctive need to discriminate among groups to preserve safety just doesn't apply much anymore, and so should be overcome by higher order thinking more often than not.

But if you personally or your cohort feels insecure and inferior, as opposed to actually physically threatened by "other," then that's a great excuse to indulge the old id just to make yourself feel better.  That, rather than the ancient need for physical security, is a primary driver of discrimination and racism these days.

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SL Xpress

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1 minute ago, TwiceHorn said:

I don't disagree.

But the instinctive need to discriminate among groups to preserve safety just doesn't apply much anymore, and so should be overcome by higher order thinking more often than not.

But if you personally or your cohort feels insecure and inferior, as opposed to actually physically threatened by "other," then that's a great excuse to indulge the old id just to make yourself feel better.  That, rather than the ancient need for physical security, is a primary driver of discrimination and racism these days.

Well, the first thing I should say is I appreciate the discussion. I don't agree with you, but that's okay. 

I don't think it's necessarily about physical security. I think it goes deeper than that. It's on a very instinctual level. The main thing is the difference in how we act as individuals versus how we act when we've identified with a tribe. Plenty of stories in the historical record of people who once considered themselves friends with one another became something other than that when important tribal identification required it. 

Then there's the whole gamut of personality collections embedded in our DNA. Not human DNA. Some kind of precursor that goes way back. The pleasers. The worker bees. The contrarians. The curious. They've found similar personality traits among a wide variety of animals, so it developed extremely far up the evolutionary ladder. And then you have the psychopaths, which we automatically think of in negative connotations, but has survived in our collective DNA for a reason. It's like the trial attorney you think is a complete asshole, but when he's representing you successfully in a hostile tort, he's your asshole, and you're glad to have him.

If you have two tribes competing for limited resources, but your psychopath is more clever, resourceful, and ruthless than their psychopath, you're glad to be on his team. Which is part of why so many CEOs are psychopaths. 

Well, people who crave power and the extra freedom that comes with it and who are really good at obtaining it know instinctually in many cases how to exploit that identification with "the other" to grab power, maintain it, and extend it. That's why we're never getting rid of racism completely. It's part of the programming, and the programming has a new chance to be exposed with every new generation. It's also why it's so important to be aware of when the veneer of civilization is being broken down, from what quarter it's coming from.

For decades I've had people tell me that children don't know anything about racism. It's taught to them by their parents. And while I wouldn't say that's completely wrong, if you're around children enough you know how good they are at identifying an other, or others. May not be along racial lines, but it will be something. Could be someone perceived to be a weak link in the herd. Could be a rival. Regardless, it happens ubiquitously. And the most successful way I've seen to combat it is when the people identified as others form their own tribe as basically a fuck you to the people who discriminated in the first place. But of course then you have inherent friction and conflict. 

And so it goes. 

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ztejas

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45 minutes ago, George said:

All good. The cartel apologized. 
 

 

The larger cartels are virtually state actors - and fairly competent ones at that. It isn't nothing for them to acknowledge the incident. They are plenty aware that killing Americans isn't good for business. That, of course (and as evidenced), doesn't make it safe in those places. I mean, we still have American cops killing Americans. 

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chainsaw

chainsaw 9873

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55 minutes ago, ztejas said:

The larger cartels are virtually state actors - and fairly competent ones at that. It isn't nothing for them to acknowledge the incident. They are plenty aware that killing Americans isn't good for business. That, of course (and as evidenced), doesn't make it safe in those places. I mean, we still have American cops killing Americans. 

it used to be that way. but now i think they are a mix of reckless gen z and millennials who aren't as good at providing for the communities they claim to "protect"

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closetohumping

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1 hour ago, hayden_horn said:

ha was traveling last week in Barcelona in the Gothic quarter with a colleague. he's mostly strict halal, so we wander around and find a cool looking place. we go in and he looks at me says "sorry too many white people" and we ended up eating at a place with hookahs. goddamn that place was fucking great. 

My brother is in Barcelona now.  As is a coworker of mine.   Allegedly great place

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Saint Tacky

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On 3/6/2023 at 3:41 PM, YGIFS said:

I'm starting to think maybe the felony scheduling of a buncha drugs is having a negative effect on Mexico AND the United States?  Just a hunch.  

That is exactly what has happened to the Baja. Cabo San Lucas and San Jose were two of the safest destinations in Mexico until it became extremely difficult for anyone not named Walter White to cook meth. 30-years ago any local in San Lucas caught fucking with a gringo was given three choices, go to jail, accept a one-way ticket to the mainland, or dig your own hole out in the desert. It's still safer than most resort destinations in Mexico, but not nearly as safe as it was.

When I was a kid I traveled to or through Matamoros quite often with my parents and grandparents. Always stopped at Garcia's for drinks and The Drive Inn for dinner. Went dove hunting outside Ciudad de Victoria once a year since I was able to pick up a shotgun. At some point on a trip across the border during Spring Break, I realized it probably wasn't worth it and began going to Cabo with friends and my family. I do miss hunting and fishing trips down there.

 

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jdhorn92

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In all this Mexican (no racist) road trip madness, surprised we haven't had a Fandango reference.  Maybe the board has gone young on me.  Us olds will remember the B movie breakout for Kevin Costner and Judd Nelson as graduating Texas Fijis making one last hurrah for ol' Mexico just after UT graduation and before the Vietnam war draft.  IIRC they are in search of buried treasure of tequila. 

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South Austin

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2 minutes ago, jdhorn92 said:

In all this Mexican (no racist) road trip madness, surprised we haven't had a Fandango reference.  Maybe the board has gone young on me.  Us olds will remember the B movie breakout for Kevin Costner and Judd Nelson as graduating Texas Fijis making one last hurrah for ol' Mexico just after UT graduation and before the Vietnam war draft.  IIRC they are in search of buried treasure of tequila. 

Great movie, until the end at the wedding scene when a cartel barged in and murdered the Groovers. 

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BabaYaga

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5 minutes ago, jdhorn92 said:

In all this Mexican (no racist) road trip madness, surprised we haven't had a Fandango reference.  Maybe the board has gone young on me.  Us olds will remember the B movie breakout for Kevin Costner and Judd Nelson as graduating Texas Fijis making one last hurrah for ol' Mexico just after UT graduation and before the Vietnam war draft.  IIRC they are in search of buried treasure of tequila. 

They were looking for "DOM"

A buried bottle of champagne.  Dom Perignon.  Agreed, fantastic movie and one of my favorites.

"How about margaritas at Chatta Ortega's? We could see the Donkey Lady!"

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jdhorn92

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1 minute ago, BabaYaga said:

They were looking for "DOM"

A buried bottle of champagne.  Dom Perignon.  Agreed, fantastic movie and one of my favorites.

"How about margaritas at Chatta Ortega's? We could see the Donkey Lady!"

Dom, that's right, not Cuervo.  Been a minute since I watched it last.  Classic.

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BabaYaga

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42 minutes ago, Saint Tacky said:

That is exactly what has happened to the Baja. Cabo San Lucas and San Jose were two of the safest destinations in Mexico until it became extremely difficult for anyone not named Walter White to cook meth. 30-years ago any local in San Lucas caught fucking with a gringo was given three choices, go to jail, accept a one-way ticket to the mainland, or dig your own hole out in the desert. It's still safer than most resort destinations in Mexico, but not nearly as safe as it was.

When I was a kid I traveled to or through Matamoros quite often with my parents and grandparents. Always stopped at Garcia's for drinks and The Drive Inn for dinner. Went dove hunting outside Ciudad de Victoria once a year since I was able to pick up a shotgun. At some point on a trip across the border during Spring Break, I realized it probably wasn't worth it and began going to Cabo with friends and my family. I do miss hunting and fishing trips down there.

 

Been going to Cabo for years now.  We used to hit the Eastern side more but going into town surrounded by federales in full body armor spooked the wife.  Cabo is fantastic.  Usually go with other families, stay on the resort, and drink until I see Jesus.  

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RollLeft

RollLeft 5045

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8 hours ago, SL Xpress said:

I have a Costa Rican friend who looks down upon Mexican Americans in brutal ways. "They come here and make their neighborhoods look like Little Mexico. If they want to do that so bad, why don't they stay in Mexico?" Uh...okay? 

 

4 hours ago, Gatorubet said:

Growing up in Florida I was aware that the Cuban community did not view Mexicans in a favorable manner....

 

It is known and the nuance is not a surprise among Hispanics.  

I grew up with many Asians and it is my experience that they also, within their own communities, openly speak of a perceived hierarchy among themselves.  I think if you ask the average Asian who, within their community, claims superiority most would point to the Chinese.  That is my experience in talking with Thai, Vietnamese, Koreans, and Japanese etc. friends.  I've also noticed that Filipinos will sometimes identify as Chinese Flip as opposed to just saying Filpino.  

Common generalizations/criticisms that I have heard, even recently among the Latin community, includes viewing Cubans as complainers and having a poor work ethic due to decades of minimal work experience.  Contrast that to Cubans who have grown up here.  Boricuas (Puerto Ricans) and Colombians often have the gift of the gab but one should think twice or at least be careful if doing business with them as they are not the most trustworthy and are more talk than substance.  Venezuelans, who once thumbed their nose at the Colombians, now are the butt of Colombian jokes.  Hondurans and Guatemalans are hard workers but not the sharpest tools in the shed, also they're short. Just give an Argentinian a few minutes to remind you that they are more European than they are Latin, lol;) also, their women are crazy.  No one really discusses Costa Ricans except Bolivians. Is Brazil even Latin?  They don't even speak Spanish.  All joking aside they are unique and are the only economy that can is larger than Mexico, but the language barrier is just that a barrier.  Mexicans are often discussed mainly because they get they represent the largest group in the U.S. and have a long history of being in the news for southern border issues, hence it is obvious why these groups trying to distinguish themselves from Mexicans.

Even among Mexicans the infighting and claim to superiority is known. If not because of class/fairness in skin color, as others have mentioned,  Regios(Monterrey) will go to their grave as superior to Chilangos (MxCity).  Both tell those from SSHihuahua to SSHutup and simply have more daughters.  The Sinaloans are the Guatemalans of Mexico as they are not so bright.  Oaxacans are the Iowans/Nebraskans of the group.  Sonorans/Coahuilans are the ranchers of the bunch etc...And everyone in Mexico and I mean EVERYONE knows that those from TaTaTaTamaulipas are a different breed.  Damn! (Don't get me started on defining the differences/contributions to the menu of Mexican food.  For example, Trompo or Al Pastor?  Whats the difference.  Depends on the region.  You would think it is obvious quesadillas, have cheese.  NOT so fast!  Ask a chilango. )

Individual differences among the Latin community is vast.  I giggle when I hear leaders of the black/latino community say if only we could unite the black and Hispanic voice.  Thats not the tie that binds.  If only there were some good ideas that are.        

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blacklab

blacklab 11943

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21 minutes ago, RollLeft said:

I grew up with many Asians and it is my experience that they also, within their own communities, openly speak of a perceived hierarchy among themselves.  I think if you ask the average Asian who, within their community, claims superiority most would point to the Chinese.  That is my experience in talking with Thai, Vietnamese, Koreans, and Japanese etc. friends.  I've also noticed that Filipinos will sometimes identify as Chinese Flip as opposed to just saying Filpino.

I was at a poker table one time and was the only white person, everyone else was Asian. Someone else noticed it as well and started asking around where their families were from. I think we had Chinese, Korean, Vietnamese and Filipino. The Filipino said "We are the Mexicans of Asia"

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