London-Paris First Timer

[Lechuza 31]

Thinking about a summer trip with the wife an two teenagers.  I've never been to Europe.  The only condition I have to this trip is that I want to take a D-Day tour of Normandy. Also want to see Stonehenge.  Other than that, I don't really care what we go see.

I have no idea how to best plan out a trip like this, so the wife went to a travel agent and she put together an 8 night trip for us for $24,876.80.  4 nights in London, 4 in Paris.  Also includes various day trips/tours.  Now, I am not a seasoned traveler by any means, but this seems expensive as fuck.  So, using my interweb skillz, I came across a website called tripmasters.com and put together a 10 night trip (5 in London, 5 in Paris) which includes various tours for $15,400.  The London hotel is Park Plaza Victoria London Hotel and the Paris hotel is the Windsor Opera Hotel.  I can still change these.  Also includes the Eurostar from London to Paris.

Anyone familiar with this tripmasters.com site?  I see good reviews online. Is there any other resource for booking a trip like this that is relatively turn-key?  I don't want to spend hours researching this shit, I just want to book it and go (without getting it up the ass as far as cost).  Was the travel agent quote we got for this trip unreasonable?  What should be the ballpark cost of such a trip?  Any advice you could provide my unseasoned traveling ass would be appreciated.

[hornbri 1396]

Never heard of that website but you need to see a breakout of costs to understand it. 

Are flights included in that? Super easy to book yourself. So is eurostar. 

You can get plenty of recommendations for hotels from people on here if you let us know more what you want to be close to (or hell what you want to do). 

[Surly Bevo 24908]

Avoid the Defarge Wine Shop....it'll really take your head off.

[Lechuza 31]

Yeah, that includes flights.  Pretty much includes everything except food as far as I can tell.  Looking at AA.com, those exact flights would cost about $6500.

The travel agent's itinerary did not include any breakdown of the costs.  Just a bottom line total for the trip.

[CooterBrown 18004]

I personally would not pay for tours or day trips. There’s so much to do in both cities, you don’t need to and you’ll end up paying way more for things that are either free or cheap. For example, all museums in England are free. You don’t need a tour. The Louvre is €9 and you don’t need a tour to see all the big items.

What I would do is just pick 2 attractions to see per day and in between just wander around, grab meals and drinks in places that look interesting. Don’t over think it. Both cities are fantastic just for meandering and discovering stuff to see and do.

[Spankytoes 1739]

I despise tours, so I can’t help you there. I like to be in control of where I go, how long I stay and when I need a change of venue. The only tour that I’d recommend is the Yeoman’s tour of the Tower of London. I don’t know your hotels, but you’re on the right track with regards to area. I always stay in those areas in London and Paris. I really like the Opera area in Paris as the Louvre is a short walk away. In London, you’re close to Hyde Park which is cool. 
 

Never been to Stonehenge because it doesn’t appeal to me. If you are doing Normandy, make time for Mont-St. Michael. I would take a train out of London and Paris and pickup a car outside the city. A lot less stress that way. 

[Neonmoon 38129]

Download Get Your Guide App

Book tours through it. No travel agent needed 

[Mo Horn 8831]

Rick Steves books FTW. I've planned multiple European trips using his books, and internet sites

[PenelopeWitherspoon 19100]

14 hours ago, Lechuza said:

Thinking about a summer trip with the wife an two teenagers.  I've never been to Europe.  The only condition I have to this trip is that I want to take a D-Day tour of Normandy. Also want to see Stonehenge.  Other than that, I don't really care what we go see.

I have no idea how to best plan out a trip like this, so the wife went to a travel agent and she put together an 8 night trip for us for $24,876.80.  4 nights in London, 4 in Paris.  Also includes various day trips/tours.  Now, I am not a seasoned traveler by any means, but this seems expensive as fuck.  So, using my interweb skillz, I came across a website called tripmasters.com and put together a 10 night trip (5 in London, 5 in Paris) which includes various tours for $15,400.  The London hotel is Park Plaza Victoria London Hotel and the Paris hotel is the Windsor Opera Hotel.  I can still change these.  Also includes the Eurostar from London to Paris.

Anyone familiar with this tripmasters.com site?  I see good reviews online. Is there any other resource for booking a trip like this that is relatively turn-key?  I don't want to spend hours researching this shit, I just want to book it and go (without getting it up the ass as far as cost).  Was the travel agent quote we got for this trip unreasonable?  What should be the ballpark cost of such a trip?  Any advice you could provide my unseasoned traveling ass would be appreciated.

I can help you put together a good plan for less than that.  I go to London and Paris all the time.  Both are cities it is relatively easy to plan for.  I also always recommend booking directly instead of with a third party.  Too much shit can go wrong.

Feel free to message me.  For a first time, I think 5-6 nights in both Paris and London are the right amount of time.

On Stonehenge, you cannot get close to it, unless you do a sunrise or sunset tour, and you need to put in for that NOW.  You do that directly with English Heritage.  https://www.english-heritage.org.uk/visit/places/stonehenge/things-to-do/stone-circle-access-visits/

On Normandy, I did this with my parents.  We trained out to Caen, rented a car, drove to Mont Saint-Michel, then back to La Pointe du Hac.  We did this in late November, so days were shorter, so in the summer, it should definitely be doable.  

For flights, if you have flexility, look at Google flights.  6500 for 4 seems high, unless that is a mix or business/prem economy.  For four coach flights, that is definitely high.  

For where to stay, with two adults and two teenagers, I would look at AirBnB vs. hotels.  You need more space.  Some search tips, though.  Always look for properties with a number of reviews.  And preferably, you go for the AirBnB Superhosts.  For both, you want to be relatively central.  In London, I recommend Westminster, Bloomsbury, Holburn, or Farringdon.  Those areas are central and will be less $$$ than Mayfair, Convent Garden, or Soho.  Bermondsey, Southwark, and Islington are a little further out, but very cool to stay in.

In Paris, I usually stay in the 1st, but The 3rd, 5th and 6th are very, very good places as well.  You can get better pricing if you are willing to go 9th, 10th, or 11th, and those areas are very, very cool.  I also like the 14th and 15th, as there are areas that are very central, but also more residential areas so less $$$.

 

 

[Captain Ron 12871]

23 minutes ago, PenelopeWitherspoon said:

I can help you put together a good plan for less than that.  I go to London and Paris all the time.  Both are cities it is relatively easy to plan for.  I also always recommend booking directly instead of with a third party.  Too much shit can go wrong.

Feel free to message me.  For a first time, I think 5-6 nights in both Paris and London are the right amount of time.

On Stonehenge, you cannot get close to it, unless you do a sunrise or sunset tour, and you need to put in for that NOW.  You do that directly with English Heritage.  https://www.english-heritage.org.uk/visit/places/stonehenge/things-to-do/stone-circle-access-visits/

On Normandy, I did this with my parents.  We trained out to Caen, rented a car, drove to Mont Saint-Michel, then back to La Pointe du Hac.  We did this in late November, so days were shorter, so in the summer, it should definitely be doable.  

For flights, if you have flexility, look at Google flights.  6500 for 4 seems high, unless that is a mix or business/prem economy.  For four coach flights, that is definitely high.  

For where to stay, with two adults and two teenagers, I would look at AirBnB vs. hotels.  You need more space.  Some search tips, though.  Always look for properties with a number of reviews.  And preferably, you go for the AirBnB Superhosts.  For both, you want to be relatively central.  In London, I recommend Westminster, Bloomsbury, Holburn, or Farringdon.  Those areas are central and will be less $$$ than Mayfair, Convent Garden, or Soho.  Bermondsey, Southwark, and Islington are a little further out, but very cool to stay in.

In Paris, I usually stay in the 1st, but The 3rd, 5th and 6th are very, very good places as well.  You can get better pricing if you are willing to go 9th, 10th, or 11th, and those areas are very, very cool.  I also like the 14th and 15th, as there are areas that are very central, but also more residential areas so less $$$.

 

 

You better listen to her, she's in premed.

 

To be fair, I was going to say do nothing until Penelope chimes in.

Edited March 13, 2023 by Captain Ron

[Lechuza 31]

45 minutes ago, PenelopeWitherspoon said:

I can help you put together a good plan for less than that.  I go to London and Paris all the time.  Both are cities it is relatively easy to plan for.  I also always recommend booking directly instead of with a third party.  Too much shit can go wrong.

Feel free to message me.  For a first time, I think 5-6 nights in both Paris and London are the right amount of time.

On Stonehenge, you cannot get close to it, unless you do a sunrise or sunset tour, and you need to put in for that NOW.  You do that directly with English Heritage.  https://www.english-heritage.org.uk/visit/places/stonehenge/things-to-do/stone-circle-access-visits/

On Normandy, I did this with my parents.  We trained out to Caen, rented a car, drove to Mont Saint-Michel, then back to La Pointe du Hac.  We did this in late November, so days were shorter, so in the summer, it should definitely be doable.  

For flights, if you have flexility, look at Google flights.  6500 for 4 seems high, unless that is a mix or business/prem economy.  For four coach flights, that is definitely high.  

For where to stay, with two adults and two teenagers, I would look at AirBnB vs. hotels.  You need more space.  Some search tips, though.  Always look for properties with a number of reviews.  And preferably, you go for the AirBnB Superhosts.  For both, you want to be relatively central.  In London, I recommend Westminster, Bloomsbury, Holburn, or Farringdon.  Those areas are central and will be less $$$ than Mayfair, Convent Garden, or Soho.  Bermondsey, Southwark, and Islington are a little further out, but very cool to stay in.

In Paris, I usually stay in the 1st, but The 3rd, 5th and 6th are very, very good places as well.  You can get better pricing if you are willing to go 9th, 10th, or 11th, and those areas are very, very cool.  I also like the 14th and 15th, as there are areas that are very central, but also more residential areas so less $$$.

 

 

Thanks for the info.  We'll be flying from a smaller regional airport to DFW then direct to London.  Same on the way back.  I've priced flights leaving and returning to San Antonio, Houston, and Austin, and they may be a little cheaper, but not cheap enough to make me want to drive to and from that airport.  The flights I am looking at is through AA.  "Basic Economy" is $5,864 and "Main Cabin" is $6,544.  In looking at their fare description, I doubt the "main cabin" actually results in better seating.  With main cabin, you get "free seat selection, extra legroom for a free, priority boarding for a fee, and free ticket changes (possible fare difference).  Sounds like a bargain.  Lol.  

[PenelopeWitherspoon 19100]

Which small regional?  Killeen?  Waco?  You can send me a message with that if you do not want to DOX yourself.  LOL.  

Be careful with Basic Economy.  You likely DO NOT get a carry on or a checked bag, even on an intercontinental flight.  

Are you trying to price in three leg flights, or just round trip London or Paris?  

All these are variables you can play with.  

[RollLeft 5040]

My brother has used tripmasters.com several times and liked it.  That said, he and his wife are big-picture people and don't like fretting over any details.  It's not for me.

[52-80 19147]

Seems way fucking expensive. 

A reasonable baseline cost is $1000/head for flight in coach and $250/room/night. This brings you to $8000 minimum. 

Against $24k that is a hell of a lot of surplus for intermediate transport and cost of admissions. 

Theres a wide zone between backpacking it, and fully hands-off travel.  Lots of consolidated one stop sites to help minimize your research:

-wikitravel/wikijourney great for ultra-high level overview of all tourist aspects
-eater.com great for food planning (if so inclined)

-tripadvisor and airbnb both have bookings of accomodations AND experiences

so basically, first use the wiki to scan what you might like to see or do.  and if you want to see/do them in a guided manner, use tripadvisor/airbnb to book them as tours/“experience”.  they’re often private or semiprivate and flexible enough to accomodate transport for you. 
 

Within 1 hour you can book 7 daytrips to fill up bulk of your time, and meander around for the remainder. With a smartphone and internet, no need for 80s style agent and doing everything blind. 

Edited March 13, 2023 by 52-80

[CooterBrown 18004]

I’d recommend at least premium economy for the overnight to London. You’ll want the extra space and recline for trying to sleep. The flight back is during the day so economy is fine since you’ll just watch 5 movies in a row.

[po elvis 2070]

4 hours ago, PenelopeWitherspoon said:

For where to stay, with two adults and two teenagers, I would look at AirBnB vs. hotels.  You need more space. 

If you go the apartment route, I would also check out Booking.com. When we got to Europe, it ended up being our go to site over Airbnb to find apartments for a few days. But we were winging it, usually booking a place for that afternoon or the next day. They seemed to have great very last minute deals.

[52-80 19147]

Caution for non travelers or impatient travelers that booking apartment/private/abnb often require negotiating a check-in time, and dont have daily housecleaning. 
 

Searching for serviced-apartments is a good compromise of larger space with formalized service

[closetojumping 62565]

Listen, I often don't give a shit about the cost of things when I travel, but both prices you quoted are expensive as hell, and I've done London + Paris multiple times and each unattached to the other multiple times. There are a lot of good recs here already. If you're interested in doing the non-hotel route for both places, LMK because my wife has booked with local services that are better than AirBnB for both places multiple times and we travel with 4 kids and sometimes my in-laws. I can promise that this route is not only likely less expensive, it's a better fit for your family. We stayed in a penthouse apartment in Paris in the 7th arrondisement with another couple during Christmas time in 2021 and the total expense was under $5k for 6 nights. You could do something less ridiculous and with less space for 5 nights likely in the $2500-$3K range.

We did the trip to Normandy. Did not do Mont-St.-Michel, unfortunately. We scheduled a tour guide to meet us at Bayonne (I think? It's a B-city near Normandy on the Parisian train line) getting off the train. He took us to Pointe du Hoc, then to the American cemetary/monument area where we saw them bring the flags down while playing "Taps" and then he took us to Omaha Beach and we were on the frigging beach. I despise tours like the others, but this is one I would recommend because the dude was extremely informative and the stops were pertinent and well-timed. 

Once upon a time, my wife and I and our 3 (at the time) little kids were going from London to Torquay and we decided to stop and see Stonehenge. My expectations were low. Wife is half-British and spent much of early life in England and was like "you don't know shit and you are going to love this." She was right. I can't explain it, but it resonated and was the most quintessential British historic thing I have encountered, even after many trips. This was pre-pandemic, so it sounds like things have gotten harder in terms of visiting it, but I stand by the notion that it is worth it. 

60-120 minutes of research and conversation with your wife will have you mapping out all of the landmarks and museums of both cities and isn't worth paying anyone else for, IMO. 

The coolest shit in London that are tourist traps and still worth it are: Westminster Abbey (don't miss this and buy tickets ahead) and walking around Big Ben/The Eye/Parliament (especially if they're in session); The Tower of London; Greenwich by boat and the Prime Meridian; Buckingham Palace and walking towards Trafalgar Square; The British Imperial War Museum; numerous parks and pubs. 

The famous shit to avoid in London that are tourist traps or touristy things: Fish and chips; The British Museum - I have been to the fucking BM multiple times - dragged there - and it is a giant nothingburger of old pottery, old money, mummies, a few statues and, if you're really lucky, the Rosetta Stone (they didn't have this out the last time I had to go there in December of 2022) - and I love museums; the crown jewels at The Tower, and the Tate Modern. 

The coolest shit in Paris that are tourist traps and still worth it are: The Eiffel Tower (yes, fucking go to this), The Louvre, Musee D'Orsay, Jardin des Tuileries, Notre Dame, pick any of the better known brasseries and they're still worth it. Also, stop at every pattisserie you see if you like sweets. They've all got different things going on and they're usually top notch or they wouldn't be in business.

The famous shit to avoid in London that are tourist traps or touristy things: Les Champs-Elysees (this area was designed with dumb Americans, Brits, and Asians in mind, I swear); Arc de Triomphe (next to Champs-Elysees and a general waste of time unless you want to walk up hundreds of stairs in non-air-conditioned heat without ventilation to see a bird's eye view of the Champs. drive by in a taxi or uber instead and check it off.); and, far and away, the Palace of Versailles, which is one of the most boring, tedious, stuffy wastes of time in the entirety of my adulthood travels. 

Hope that helps. 

[Damor 1236]

5 hours ago, Lechuza said:

Thanks for the info.  We'll be flying from a smaller regional airport to DFW then direct to London.  Same on the way back.  I've priced flights leaving and returning to San Antonio, Houston, and Austin, and they may be a little cheaper, but not cheap enough to make me want to drive to and from that airport.  The flights I am looking at is through AA.  "Basic Economy" is $5,864 and "Main Cabin" is $6,544.  In looking at their fare description, I doubt the "main cabin" actually results in better seating.  With main cabin, you get "free seat selection, extra legroom for a free, priority boarding for a fee, and free ticket changes (possible fare difference).  Sounds like a bargain.  Lol.  

I'm not the travel expert that others on this thread are (I can't say I've seen London, haven't been to Paris in 20 years, and I ain't never seen no Queen in her damned undies as the feller says), but airline fare pricing is weird, so try some weird things.

For example, we are flying to Maui this summer, and it was 20-30% cheaper to fly from AUS/GRK/ACT-->DFW -->OGG than it would have been to drive up to DFW and take that same direct flight to OGG.

Spend some time playing around with it on Google Flights and set up a bunch of price watches, the more specific the better.

And subscribed to this thread for great info for future travel, thanks.

[jimmyjazz 45891]

That's insanely expensive.  As others have said, don't go through a 3rd party, just book your flights and your hotel + car (if you want one) and wing it from there.  

[CycleTex87 2967]

My wife and I stayed in a friend’s apartment outside London back in 1997 on our first trip to England. It was walking distance to the train station which we took into town each day.  Think Airbnb in 2023 terms. It was a great experience.  We bought train passes.  Our only constraint was the timing of the last train out at night. 

[Lechuza 31]

Many thanks to PenelopeWitherspoon for helping me out planning this trip. Got the flights and London and Paris AirBnb”s booked with her expert help.  

[Ghost of LL 15531]

On 3/13/2023 at 2:24 PM, closetojumping said:

Listen, I often don't give a shit about the cost of things when I travel, but both prices you quoted are expensive as hell, and I've done London + Paris multiple times and each unattached to the other multiple times. There are a lot of good recs here already. If you're interested in doing the non-hotel route for both places, LMK because my wife has booked with local services that are better than AirBnB for both places multiple times and we travel with 4 kids and sometimes my in-laws. I can promise that this route is not only likely less expensive, it's a better fit for your family. We stayed in a penthouse apartment in Paris in the 7th arrondisement with another couple during Christmas time in 2021 and the total expense was under $5k for 6 nights. You could do something less ridiculous and with less space for 5 nights likely in the $2500-$3K range.

We did the trip to Normandy. Did not do Mont-St.-Michel, unfortunately. We scheduled a tour guide to meet us at Bayonne (I think? It's a B-city near Normandy on the Parisian train line) getting off the train. He took us to Pointe du Hoc, then to the American cemetary/monument area where we saw them bring the flags down while playing "Taps" and then he took us to Omaha Beach and we were on the frigging beach. I despise tours like the others, but this is one I would recommend because the dude was extremely informative and the stops were pertinent and well-timed. 

Once upon a time, my wife and I and our 3 (at the time) little kids were going from London to Torquay and we decided to stop and see Stonehenge. My expectations were low. Wife is half-British and spent much of early life in England and was like "you don't know shit and you are going to love this." She was right. I can't explain it, but it resonated and was the most quintessential British historic thing I have encountered, even after many trips. This was pre-pandemic, so it sounds like things have gotten harder in terms of visiting it, but I stand by the notion that it is worth it. 

60-120 minutes of research and conversation with your wife will have you mapping out all of the landmarks and museums of both cities and isn't worth paying anyone else for, IMO. 

The coolest shit in London that are tourist traps and still worth it are: Westminster Abbey (don't miss this and buy tickets ahead) and walking around Big Ben/The Eye/Parliament (especially if they're in session); The Tower of London; Greenwich by boat and the Prime Meridian; Buckingham Palace and walking towards Trafalgar Square; The British Imperial War Museum; numerous parks and pubs. 

The famous shit to avoid in London that are tourist traps or touristy things: Fish and chips; The British Museum - I have been to the fucking BM multiple times - dragged there - and it is a giant nothingburger of old pottery, old money, mummies, a few statues and, if you're really lucky, the Rosetta Stone (they didn't have this out the last time I had to go there in December of 2022) - and I love museums; the crown jewels at The Tower, and the Tate Modern. 

The coolest shit in Paris that are tourist traps and still worth it are: The Eiffel Tower (yes, fucking go to this), The Louvre, Musee D'Orsay, Jardin des Tuileries, Notre Dame, pick any of the better known brasseries and they're still worth it. Also, stop at every pattisserie you see if you like sweets. They've all got different things going on and they're usually top notch or they wouldn't be in business.

The famous shit to avoid in London that are tourist traps or touristy things: Les Champs-Elysees (this area was designed with dumb Americans, Brits, and Asians in mind, I swear); Arc de Triomphe (next to Champs-Elysees and a general waste of time unless you want to walk up hundreds of stairs in non-air-conditioned heat without ventilation to see a bird's eye view of the Champs. drive by in a taxi or uber instead and check it off.); and, far and away, the Palace of Versailles, which is one of the most boring, tedious, stuffy wastes of time in the entirety of my adulthood travels. 

Hope that helps. 

I think this is generally right on.  To point out a couple things in particular, I think the tour of Parliament was one of the most interesting things we did on our last trip to London.  It's helpful to register ahead of time, as it reserves your spot and cuts down on the security clearance time. I would also echo the Buckingham Palace tour.  They open it every summer--or at least they did while the late Queen was in Scotland for the summer.  It was really shockingly cool.

And while I broadly will agree with Spanky on his dislike of tours, I would absolutely get a private tour if you want to do Versailles.  We did that when we went in 2019, and it was great.  The tour guide allowed us to bypass all the lines, and moved us quickly through the palace.  The absolutely best part was him physically and aggressively shoving through the masses of Chinese tourists.  At first, I thought it was intensely rude.  Fifteen minutes, I concluded it was necessary and entirely appropriate.

To add a few sights that I think are worthwhile:

London: Churchill War Rooms, the Royal Mews (i.e., where they keep the royal carriages and horses)

Paris: Catacombs, Sainte Chappelle

All of these things should be booked ahead of time, to the extent possible.

I'm glad @PenelopeWitherspoon was able to help with some of the particulars.  There are a number of people on this thread (myself included) that can plan a pretty step-by-step and day-by-day itinerary for you.  Feel free to DM people here and we're happy to help out.  

But I'm also going to tell you that probably the happiest day in Paris was the day on which we had nothing planned and did nothing in particular.  We went to the local grocery store near our hotel and grabbed a bottle of wine, some soft drinks for the kids, a baguette, some cheese, and some cold cuts.  We then went over to the Tulleries Garden and had a picnic.  My daughter took a nap while my son fed the pigeons.  Then we got some scooters and rode down to Ile de la Cite and walked around shopping for souvenirs and art and street crepes.  And by the end of the day we were in some bistro eating duck and drinking more wine.  So while I think we can plan every day if you want, I'd encourage you to leave some time to just let the game come to you.

[956 Worldwide 34703]

Glad you’re getting tips because yes, that is expensive as hell. And in both those cities, you don’t want to have every minute planned for you. 
 

Second the recommend for booking.com. It’s my go-to all over Europe and you can get great apartments and houses for much less hassle than AirBnB. And they do have frequent deals last minute. 
 

Also agree that Westminster and the Yeoman Warder’s tour at the Tower are the touristy things that are totally worth it in London. Recommend being at the Tower early if possible for that tour, I did it for the first tour of the day and it was great. 
 

For France— do you see yourself going back? If not, I’d consider getting out of Paris for two nights. The Loire Valley is a favorite of mine and it’s close and you feel like you went to deep France. Highly recommend it, it’s a short drive and a rental car would be best so you can pick your chateaux.

Edit: Just re-read and saw that you want to do Normandy. I’d just stay in Normandy a few days for sure. 

Edited March 17, 2023 by 956 Worldwide

[PenelopeWitherspoon 19100]

1.  I echo Ghost of LL and others who said go to the Palace of Westminster (Parliament).  When I took my folks in 2017, we did this, and it is absolutely great.  In one day, we did Parliament, Westminster Abbey, and then watched the changing of the guards at Horse Guards (which I loved).  Those are all in Westminster, so easy to do in one day.  

2.  In London, my favorite tourist site is the Tower of London.  I mean, it has been there for SO LONG.  

3.  Definitely spend time in Borough Market.  London has an underrated food scene for sure.  

4.  40 Maltby is amazing, and in Bermondsey, which in and of itself is a cool area.  If there on a Sunday, do a Sunday Roast.  Definitely fish and chips.  Sweeting's is a place that has long been on my list.  

[CooterBrown 18004]

I’ll echo that Tower of London is great. For museums, the Imperial War Museum is beyond fantastic.

Borough Market is great. There’s a chorizo sandwich and beer special for £10 at the edge of the market that I’d recommend.

You’re also not far from the Bermondsey Beer Mile. It’s a bunch of micro breweries under the railroad arches. It’s a good way to spend an afternoon.

[Damor 1236]

Ignorant question:  What is Paris like this time of year for visiting?  Next year is our 20th anniversary, and if we wanted to do a trip, I just wondered what to expect. 

[Spankytoes 1739]

On 3/13/2023 at 3:24 PM, closetojumping said:

Listen, I often don't give a shit about the cost of things when I travel, but both prices you quoted are expensive as hell, and I've done London + Paris multiple times and each unattached to the other multiple times. There are a lot of good recs here already. If you're interested in doing the non-hotel route for both places, LMK because my wife has booked with local services that are better than AirBnB for both places multiple times and we travel with 4 kids and sometimes my in-laws. I can promise that this route is not only likely less expensive, it's a better fit for your family. We stayed in a penthouse apartment in Paris in the 7th arrondisement with another couple during Christmas time in 2021 and the total expense was under $5k for 6 nights. You could do something less ridiculous and with less space for 5 nights likely in the $2500-$3K range.

We did the trip to Normandy. Did not do Mont-St.-Michel, unfortunately. We scheduled a tour guide to meet us at Bayonne (I think? It's a B-city near Normandy on the Parisian train line) getting off the train. He took us to Pointe du Hoc, then to the American cemetary/monument area where we saw them bring the flags down while playing "Taps" and then he took us to Omaha Beach and we were on the frigging beach. I despise tours like the others, but this is one I would recommend because the dude was extremely informative and the stops were pertinent and well-timed. 

Once upon a time, my wife and I and our 3 (at the time) little kids were going from London to Torquay and we decided to stop and see Stonehenge. My expectations were low. Wife is half-British and spent much of early life in England and was like "you don't know shit and you are going to love this." She was right. I can't explain it, but it resonated and was the most quintessential British historic thing I have encountered, even after many trips. This was pre-pandemic, so it sounds like things have gotten harder in terms of visiting it, but I stand by the notion that it is worth it. 

60-120 minutes of research and conversation with your wife will have you mapping out all of the landmarks and museums of both cities and isn't worth paying anyone else for, IMO. 

The coolest shit in London that are tourist traps and still worth it are: Westminster Abbey (don't miss this and buy tickets ahead) and walking around Big Ben/The Eye/Parliament (especially if they're in session); The Tower of London; Greenwich by boat and the Prime Meridian; Buckingham Palace and walking towards Trafalgar Square; The British Imperial War Museum; numerous parks and pubs. 

The famous shit to avoid in London that are tourist traps or touristy things: Fish and chips; The British Museum - I have been to the fucking BM multiple times - dragged there - and it is a giant nothingburger of old pottery, old money, mummies, a few statues and, if you're really lucky, the Rosetta Stone (they didn't have this out the last time I had to go there in December of 2022) - and I love museums; the crown jewels at The Tower, and the Tate Modern. 

The coolest shit in Paris that are tourist traps and still worth it are: The Eiffel Tower (yes, fucking go to this), The Louvre, Musee D'Orsay, Jardin des Tuileries, Notre Dame, pick any of the better known brasseries and they're still worth it. Also, stop at every pattisserie you see if you like sweets. They've all got different things going on and they're usually top notch or they wouldn't be in business.

The famous shit to avoid in London that are tourist traps or touristy things: Les Champs-Elysees (this area was designed with dumb Americans, Brits, and Asians in mind, I swear); Arc de Triomphe (next to Champs-Elysees and a general waste of time unless you want to walk up hundreds of stairs in non-air-conditioned heat without ventilation to see a bird's eye view of the Champs. drive by in a taxi or uber instead and check it off.); and, far and away, the Palace of Versailles, which is one of the most boring, tedious, stuffy wastes of time in the entirety of my adulthood travels. 

Hope that helps. 

Echo your feelings on Versailles. If you like tapestries, wait in that long line. If you just want to say you’ve been there, rent a golf cart and self-tour the gardens. IMO, the outside and gardens are where it’s at. With kids, Disneyland isn’t too far away either. My teen (at the time) had a good time there. They have golf at the resort too. (I want to say it was a Hyatt?)

We picked up our rental in Caen too. (Couldn’t think of the city) Rental car companies are within walking distance of the train station IIRC.

Hotels near Normandy are at a fishing village. We stayed right on the canals, which was cool to walk around at dusk. Not a lot of eateries nearby, so we stocked up on groceries in Paris and brought them with us on the train. Would do that again.

Don’t know if Notre Dame is open again, but there are stairs. You’ll see…

[msbesq 385]

For Normandy and Paris— use Viator.com, they offer a number of Normandy tours. Most involve taking the train to Bayeux, a nice two hour ride through the countryside. Walk the Latin Quarter, it’s lively and fun with a bunch of nice bistros, chocolatiers and shops. The Musee d’Orsay is lighter, brighter and a nicer experience than the Louvre. Takes tour on the Seine. Bayeux Parisians offers a number of price and time options. So much more. We love Paris.

[Neonmoon 38129]

3 hours ago, Spankytoes said:

Echo your feelings on Versailles. If you like tapestries, wait in that long line. If you just want to say you’ve been there, rent a golf cart and self-tour the gardens. IMO, the outside and gardens are where it’s at. With kids, Disneyland isn’t too far away either. My teen (at the time) had a good time there. They have golf at the resort too. (I want to say it was a Hyatt?)

We picked up our rental in Caen too. (Couldn’t think of the city) Rental car companies are within walking distance of the train station IIRC.

Hotels near Normandy are at a fishing village. We stayed right on the canals, which was cool to walk around at dusk. Not a lot of eateries nearby, so we stocked up on groceries in Paris and brought them with us on the train. Would do that again.

Don’t know if Notre Dame is open again, but there are stairs. You’ll see…

Agree. Inside Versailles is packed and sucks. Outside Versailles is beautiful and great. 

Les Invalides is underrated. 

[Ghost of LL 15531]

7 hours ago, Damor said:

Ignorant question:  What is Paris like this time of year for visiting?  Next year is our 20th anniversary, and if we wanted to do a trip, I just wondered what to expect. 

It's springtime in Paris.  April is nicer than March.  But there's a reason people wax poetic about springtime in Paris.

If you go the second week in April, you miss the Americans who are visiting over Spring Break.  And you also miss a lot of European tourists who have an extended Easter break and then another break over May 1.

[Chopper 17230]

Common rookie mistakes -

In both London and Paris, the 1st floor is what we in the States call the 2nd floor. Our 1st floor is their Ground Floor.

In both London and Paris, unless it's a large hotel you can't assume the building you're staying in will have a lift.

In both the UK and France, it's not month/day/year, it's day/month/year.

In Paris, the shopkeepers will greet you with 'Bonjour' as you enter and you're expected to greet them similarly. In London they'll ignore you and think you're a knob if you do otherwise, unless you have a question for them.

In the Paris thread a couple weeks ago I posted a NYT article with a list of food recs in each arrondisement.

Edited March 18, 2023 by Chopper

[RamjetFDO 10575]

If you like tapestries, wait in that long line.

[burntorangebongos 10710]

You can rent Golf carts in the gardens of Versailles??? Holy fuck, that sounds awesome. I love botanical gardens so if I went to Versailles I'd wouldn't leave the gardens the place is famous for. 

[Chopper 17230]

22 hours ago, burntorangebongos said:

You can rent Golf carts in the gardens of Versailles??? Holy fuck, that sounds awesome. I love botanical gardens so if I went to Versailles I'd wouldn't leave the gardens the place is famous for. 

The golf carts are new and would definitely make getting to both the park and town possible. I can see a trip to the Palace at Versailles being a long, miserable day if it's crowded and you maybe don't gaf about gardens. But I was there on a weekday in the Spring when there were less than 200 visitors, and the gardens were absolutely amazing. The palace was nice but not particularly memorable. I loved the smaller buildings built at the discretion of Marie Antoinette. I understand they've recently restored the small theater she had built. I'd love to see it. We wandered around those gardens for a good couple of hours and practically had them to ourselves. The town of Versailles has a bunch of interesting places to see, as well.

[PenelopeWitherspoon 19100]

19 hours ago, Chopper said:

The golf carts are new and would definitely make getting to both the park and town possible. I can see a trip to the Palace at Versailles being a long, miserable day if it's crowded and you maybe don't gaf about gardens. But I was there on a weekday in the Spring when there were less than 200 visitors, and the gardens were absolutely amazing. The palace was nice but not particularly memorable. I loved the smaller buildings built at the discretion of Marie Antoinette. I understand they've recently restored the small theater she had built. I'd love to see it. We wandered around those gardens for a good couple of hours and practically had them to ourselves. The town of Versailles has a bunch of interesting places to see, as well.

The golf carts were there when I was there in 2017.  I was there in April, and it was crowded.  The palace is nice to see, but it does get very crowded in there.  They have banned selfie sticks, which is nice. The gardens are absolutely amazing as is the Hameau de la Reine and the Petit Trianon.  

 

[CooterBrown 18004]

I don't think you can take the golf carts off the palace property. I only saw them in the gardens and there weren't that many of them. I probably only saw a dozen total. 

[PenelopeWitherspoon 19100]

More info here...

https://en.chateauversailles.fr/plan-your-visit/facilities/small-electric-vehicles#opening-hours-and-access

[Chopper 17230]

30 minutes ago, CooterBrown said:

I don't think you can take the golf carts off the palace property. I only saw them in the gardens and there weren't that many of them. I probably only saw a dozen total. 

You are likely correct. I'm just saying, the carts are new since I last visited. Also the palace sits in between the town and the park, and it's a 20 minute walk to get from from the palace to the beginning edge of the park. So the convenience of a cart for a non-mobility challenged person is that you could theoretically spend some time in the Park, gardens and palace, as well as the town, in one go without it taking up your entire day.

[Litig8r 414]

We did that same trip several years ago as a springbreak trip.  As everyone said, the price you got was high AF.  We booked on our own way back before the interweb was so easy and didn't have a problem.  One thing we did that was really worthwhile was hire a private tour guide for London.  You will have fun, it's not difficult.  Do your homework and you should be fine

[McCroskey 1504]

Ignorant question:  What is Paris like this time of year for visiting?  Next year is our 20th anniversary, and if we wanted to do a trip, I just wondered what to expect. 

Unlikely to be “hot” which is nice because many airbnb’s don’t have A/C. Most likely this time of year it will be mild and nice, but has potential to be cold and miserable as fuck. Just be sure to check the forecast leading up till when you leave so you can pack for contingencies.

I went late March 2018 and it was very nice, sunny with highs between 15-20 Celsius (60-68 F). Just about perfect weather for walking many miles per day (which we preferred). Zero bugs in that climate.

Went back last year over a ~10 day period late March to early April, and it was everything from the same mild and sunny all the way down to one day when it fucking snowed, sleeted, wind was howling, and that was in Paris. Apparently Paris hadn’t had snow in years. When we went to Normandy the next day and got to pointe du hoc the wind was blowing 35mph with 50+ gusts and we got sprayed from the crashing waves…which oh btw are at the top of 100+ foot high cliffs. Temps were about 5 Celsius before wind chill factored in.

Awesome place though and worth it no matter the weather. I love France.

[McCroskey 1504]

I’ll say this about the Champs-elysees…one of the things I recommend most in Paris is hiking to the top of the Arc de Triomphe.

As mentioned it’s a brutally long spiral staircase where you’ll pass a lot of frenchies with smoker lungs on the way up, but on a nice day the the views are just incredible.

[lemonlime 5503]

Any suggestions for what to do with 1-2 days in London?  I've been there before, and have been to many of the touristy things like the Tower and Westminster, but it's been many years.  About to leave on a business trip there, and I'll have maybe a day or so at the end of free time.

[Chopper 17230]

21 minutes ago, lemonlime said:

Any suggestions for what to do with 1-2 days in London?  I've been there before, and have been to many of the touristy things like the Tower and Westminster, but it's been many years.  About to leave on a business trip there, and I'll have maybe a day or so at the end of free time.

Some of my ideas: British Museum, Tate Modern, Imperial War Museum, Churchill War Rooms, National Gallery, the British Library, Hampton Court Palace (Henry VIII's castle) was my favorite in London, Kew Gardens

Also I understand the view from the Shard is much easier to access than the London Eye ferris wheel if you want a view of the city.

Parks are one of the other things the Brits do very well and there are several world class parks in London - St James Park near Buckingham Palace, Regents Park, and Hyde Park come to mind. 

[closetojumping 62565]

10 hours ago, lemonlime said:

Any suggestions for what to do with 1-2 days in London?  I've been there before, and have been to many of the touristy things like the Tower and Westminster, but it's been many years.  About to leave on a business trip there, and I'll have maybe a day or so at the end of free time.

 

10 hours ago, Chopper said:

Some of my ideas: British Museum, Tate Modern, Imperial War Museum, Churchill War Rooms, National Gallery, the British Library, Hampton Court Palace (Henry VIII's castle) was my favorite in London, Kew Gardens

Also I understand the view from the Shard is much easier to access than the London Eye ferris wheel if you want a view of the city.

Parks are one of the other things the Brits do very well and there are several world class parks in London - St James Park near Buckingham Palace, Regents Park, and Hyde Park come to mind. 

Chopper makes really good suggestions other than the British Museum, which is absolute garbage. I had an extra half day on many British business trips in the middle of the last decade. My favorite use of it was the British Imperial War Museum. It’s at the end of one of the tube lines and that even makes for a less crowded ride to and from. 

[PenelopeWitherspoon 19100]

The British Museum is full of stuff looted from Egypt and Greece.  I enjoyed it the first time I went.  The second time I went, I was angry.  I prefer to go to Athens and Egypt to see those things.

I second Hampton Court.  The grounds are gorgeous, and the kitchens are fascinating.  it is also really cool becuase you can see some remnants of Anne Boleyn (they are hidden).

On 3/20/2023 at 7:08 PM, McCroskey said:

I’ll say this about the Champs-elysees…one of the things I recommend most in Paris is hiking to the top of the Arc de Triomphe.

As mentioned it’s a brutally long spiral staircase where you’ll pass a lot of frenchies with smoker lungs on the way up, but on a nice day the the views are just incredible.

There is an elevator that you can take, I believe.

[Chopper 17230]

Damn, unexpected disagreement over the British Museum. A couple of interesting points. I will say the place is absolutely massive and it would be easy to wander into one of the areas that's not your cup of tea and be disappointed. 

First, Penelope's comment was timely af. https://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/eye-british-museum-greece-welcomes-back-ancient-art-98104642

Quote

Associated Press
March 24, 2023

Greece on Friday welcomed the return of ancient artifacts from the Acropolis, furthering a campaign to press the British Museum to hand back a collection of sculptures taken from the ancient site in Athens more than 200 years ago.

Culture Minister Lina Mendoni led a ceremony Friday for the repatriation of three sculpture fragments — representing a horse and two male heads — from the Parthenon temple on the Acropolis which had been kept at the Vatican Museums.

“Initiatives like these show the way, how the pieces of the Parthenon can be reunited, healing the wounds caused by barbaric hands so many years ago,” Mendoni said.

I doubt there's another museum in the world that holds as many artifacts in one site for public display. My personal favorites were the early and Medieval Europe galleries and the Sutton Hoo ship/burial site artifacts of some undetermined Anglo Saxon King (discovered on British soil). Also the building/museum itself has an amazing history - built in the early 20th century, all the original stonework and granite flooring is in place and it was one of the first buildings in London to be electrically lit.

Edited March 25, 2023 by Chopper

[PenelopeWitherspoon 19100]

Paris is my favorite city in the world.  2020 and 2021 were the first years I did not go to Paris since 2015 thanks to COVID.  So far, this year, I am not heading over there, but in the back half of the year, I will have another business trip or two that I can try and fit a weekend in, though I might wait until the latter half of 2024 after the Olympics.  I have found from my experience with London in 2012 that that is an amazing time to go to the host city.

As far as recommendations in Paris, I have done most of the stuff that you can imagine.  I love the Jardin du Luxembourg and the Jardins des Tuileries.  In the Jardin du Luxembourg, the area around the Medici Fountain is exceptionally beautiful.  

Montmartre is a great place to walk around and get a real feel for a Paris village.  Definitely take a day, do a tour, and then just wander around.  The last time I was there, my friend and I spent hours drinking wine, people watching, and making friends, at La Mere Catherine in the Place du Tetre. 

[whereiend 26]

I also hated the British museum; it's a bunch of random artifacts from other places that the British looted during the colonial era. I prefer museums that have more of a consistent narrative. One that I did enjoy was the museum of London.

[PenelopeWitherspoon 19100]

2 hours ago, whereiend said:

I also hated the British museum; it's a bunch of random artifacts from other places that the British looted during the colonial era. I prefer museums that have more of a consistent narrative. One that I did enjoy was the museum of London.

Museum of London is very cool.

I'm in town now.  Some random photos from my walk yesterday.