More Students Are Turning Away From College and Toward Apprenticeships

[HamsterHookah 112]

Here are a few good visuals to help those who don't inherently know the difference (like I didn't):

[52-80 19159]

a degree from MIT is more likely to put you in the luxury box than one from Missouri Tech. no point in pretending theyre gonna give you access to same seat at the ballpark. 

higher education *is* a privilege. you need a certain level of merit to access it. 

k-12 is your basic education. beyond that is where you carve the path of your life. for a high school graduate, if theres distinction in the financial calculus of trade school vs university, why should that calculus disappear within the colleges of the university ?

[YGIFS 19450]

Your last point is a good one.  I think of the religious studies course I took at a (then) baptist university in the Deep South.  It was compulsory for my scholarship, certainly not within my major.  And there was, and still is, a whole 'Religious/Theological Studies' School at this University, though they divested themselves from the baptist church.  There are taxpayer/UTIMCO/endowment supported departments in religious/theological studies at several public universities across all 8 Texas higher ed systems.  They graduate several hundred students a year.  Who hardly go on to high-paying jobs, many of whom rely on debt forgiveness and taxpayer subsidies to support them as they take on incredibly low-paying jobs in the religious fields.  Why is that acceptable?  

[HamsterHookah 112]

13 minutes ago, 52-80 said:

a degree from MIT is more likely to put you in the luxury box than one from Missouri Tech. no point in pretending theyre gonna give you access to same seat at the ballpark. 

higher education *is* a privilege. you need a certain level of merit to access it. 

k-12 is your basic education. beyond that is where you carve the path of your life. for a high school graduate, if theres distinction in the financial calculus of trade school vs university, why should that calculus disappear within the colleges of the university ?

Sure, but the point is, if you solely base criteria around ROI and time to value, you are going to have consequences like cultural studies and arts and humanities being dominated by the privileged class. Which is bad for society, it is argued.

Beyond that, it might be only the most privileged (Ivy and/or expensive privates vs state schools) who get to study these expensive, less-lucrative degree paths. Here is a good, but long, read on the death of the English major I posted last month which investigates that with some hard numbers thrown in. It's long but worth the read if you are serious about the discussion of what higher education is and should be in our society.: https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2023/03/06/the-end-of-the-english-major

[SydneyCarton 48106]

1 hour ago, wildcat09 said:

So more student debt, basically.

This is such an annoying discussion. We figured out how to provide for public schooling over a century ago. It wasn't perfect but it worked pretty damned well and was free for most and affordable for all. At worst, someone would have to work in the summer to pay their tuition.  The current situation is a problem we created because everything has to involve markets and finance and because boomers decided they didn't want to pay for schools, just like they didn't want to pay for anything else that didn't immediately and directly benefit them.

I've got a quick and easy solution that would piss everyone off:

(1) eliminate like 70% of administrative positions. Your school probably shouldn't even have a rec center, it certainly doesn't need a separate department with tons of administrators making over $100k each for doing nothing while actual professors are making poverty wages.

(2) qualifying students don't get to pick where they go but are admitted into a state university lottery and are randomly assigned to different universities across the state. You can pay extra so that your kid doesn't have to go to aggy or Tceh. This would help dilute the radicalization that going to a place like aggy has on most aggy.  Of course, actual born-and-bred aggy are too stupid so none of them would qualify for UT, protecting UT's purity.

(3) states actually fund their universities.

(4) boomers get dumped on those melting glaciers in the arctic that have starving polar bears stuck on them. 

I've only really thought about #1 and #4 (mostly #4), so I reserve the right to refine these positions, change my mind entirely on one or more of them, or come up with funnier vaguely ironic ways to get rid of the boomers. 

I'm just glad to see you've learned your lesson regarding Quick and Easy, simple, etc. 

[CHIEF 5088]

27 minutes ago, HamsterHookah said:

Sure, but the point is, if you solely base criteria around ROI and time to value, you are going to have consequences like cultural studies and arts and humanities being dominated by the privileged class. Which is bad for society, it is argued.

Beyond that, it might be only the most privileged (Ivy and/or expensive privates vs state schools) who get to study these expensive, less-lucrative degree paths. Here is a good, but long, read on the death of the English major I posted last month which investigates that with some hard numbers thrown in. It's long but worth the read if you are serious about the discussion of what higher education is and should be in our society.: https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2023/03/06/the-end-of-the-english-major

I tend to think that those majors are already dominated by the privileged class. 30 years ago, those degrees were rather "cheap" to get. You could get out of college with little or no debt, and have a career that just required a degree, and you got to study something of interest. Now, with so many people going to college, there aren't as many of those type of jobs available. You need to get a degree that is specialized, and can put food on the table, or have a high GPA in those studies to get into post graduate schools.

CHIEF

[52-80 19159]

32 minutes ago, HamsterHookah said:

Sure, but the point is, if you solely base criteria around ROI and time to value, you are going to have consequences like cultural studies and arts and humanities being dominated by the privileged class. Which is bad for society, it is argued.

I dont think its bad that people value and pursue different things, without the “distortion” of that value by an indiscriminate money source.  

Its worse for society to have fewer economically-productive people than fewer people who happen to know the Iliad really well…and are also heavily indebted. 

[ABSR 5312]

19 hours ago, Celery Man said:

Art History is harder than finance.

But isn't it really a major in Barista with a minor in Art History?

[Spaulding Smails 1552]

As the owner of a trade-based business, this topic is very near and dear to my heart.  The comments about an aging workforce are very real, and in the 10 years we've been in business, the demand for trades has far outpaced the supply of skilled labor during the entirety of that stint.  It has lead to a massive uptick in wages which I feel is more of a correction of value rather than an over-reaction to demand.  I get on my soapbox often at work imploring recruitment of younger folks to join the trades.  But, it's difficult, hot, sweaty, dirty work, and it's not very enticing if you don't see the big picture.  

I'd love to see a continued push towards apprenticeship programs.  College isn't for everyone.  And, with a little direction, the trades can be a wonderful way to give people some direction and purpose.  I have dozens of stories of people who got their life on track because of the trades.  If we could find investment for grants and scholarships for the trades similar to what is put forth towards higher education, it may create an incredible amount of value to the workforce as a whole and help to curb cost of living over the long haul (though that's a completely different topic).  Additionally, the majority of these trades (especially the licensed ones) have defined apprenticeship programs that create a clear career path.   So, the ROI on those investments should be equal to or more than the investment associated with a grant or scholarship to a university.  

For plumbers in Texas specifically, the culmination of that career path is a Responsible Master Plumber (RMP) designation.  This is a step beyond a Master Plumber certification, and includes a fair amount of business basics.  There's still a huge amount of great tradespeople who are shitty at running a business.  In my eyes, if someone can couple a business degree with a license in the trades, they are almost guaranteeing a six figure income by the time they're 30 with the upside to make significantly more than that.    

All that being said, there's still so much value in a higher education.  I'd just like to see more diverse offerings that provide an equitable solution that solves problems and meets the needs of more people entering the workforce by providing them with viable skills that are marketable for the entirety of their life. 

[YGIFS 19450]

I know you're being half-sarcastic but there are some schools that are actively doing that.  We're calling it, just as a working title term, "The Aldi Model."  They're not so much stripping away resources and assets, but just not building them/hiring them as a way to contain costs and now using that as a recruiting tool to students and parents.  Their biggest issue though is you tour a school like that and then tour 4 more in the arms race, you may appreciate the lack of on-campus sun deck pools...but you'll start to wonder if they skimped on labs or research centers.  

I think of the engineering facilities at UT and other STEM Buildings.  The last 3 new engineering buildings delivered are fucking insane.  I have no any idea what any of the shit in the labs is, but the EER and the ENS and the other new one down that way, are mind bottling.  And you need that to stay competitive.  To think we got as high ranked as we did in STEM with shitholes like the ECJ and RLM are beyond reason.  On the other hand, walk through Rowling Hall next time you're on campus.  Every other room is labeled 'Experiential Classroom.'  And it's just tables, chairs, a screen, and a whiteboard.  What makes it the most expensive 'Experiential' building in any business school in America?  I have no fucking idea, it seems to be another place and listen to someone else do a power point presentation.  

[Murfdogg21 4412]

1 hour ago, HamsterHookah said:

Sure, but the point is, if you solely base criteria around ROI and time to value, you are going to have consequences like cultural studies and arts and humanities being dominated by the privileged class. Which is bad for society, it is argued.

Beyond that, it might be only the most privileged (Ivy and/or expensive privates vs state schools) who get to study these expensive, less-lucrative degree paths. Here is a good, but long, read on the death of the English major I posted last month which investigates that with some hard numbers thrown in. It's long but worth the read if you are serious about the discussion of what higher education is and should be in our society.: https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2023/03/06/the-end-of-the-english-major

Summary: Poor people should be not be discouraged from pursuing low ROI college majors/degrees with fewer lucrative job prospects so they can continue to be poor. 

[HamsterHookah 112]

24 minutes ago, Spaulding Smails said:

As the owner of a trade-based business, this topic is very near and dear to my heart.  The comments about an aging workforce are very real, and in the 10 years we've been in business, the demand for trades has far outpaced the supply of skilled labor during the entirety of that stint.  It has lead to a massive uptick in wages which I feel is more of a correction of value rather than an over-reaction to demand.  I get on my soapbox often at work imploring recruitment of younger folks to join the trades.  But, it's difficult, hot, sweaty, dirty work, and it's not very enticing if you don't see the big picture.  

I'd love to see a continued push towards apprenticeship programs.  College isn't for everyone.  And, with a little direction, the trades can be a wonderful way to give people some direction and purpose.  I have dozens of stories of people who got their life on track because of the trades.  If we could find investment for grants and scholarships for the trades similar to what is put forth towards higher education, it may create an incredible amount of value to the workforce as a whole and help to curb cost of living over the long haul (though that's a completely different topic).  Additionally, the majority of these trades (especially the licensed ones) have defined apprenticeship programs that create a clear career path.   So, the ROI on those investments should be equal to or more than the investment associated with a grant or scholarship to a university.  

For plumbers in Texas specifically, the culmination of that career path is a Responsible Master Plumber (RMP) designation.  This is a step beyond a Master Plumber certification, and includes a fair amount of business basics.  There's still a huge amount of great tradespeople who are shitty at running a business.  In my eyes, if someone can couple a business degree with a license in the trades, they are almost guaranteeing a six figure income by the time they're 30 with the upside to make significantly more than that.    

All that being said, there's still so much value in a higher education.  I'd just like to see more diverse offerings that provide an equitable solution that solves problems and meets the needs of more people entering the workforce by providing them with viable skills that are marketable for the entirety of their life. 

Great post.

Would like to get your thoughts on this, because I agree with you, but one of the reasons I still push for my children to get a college education versus an apprenticeship (if they had the desire to go straight into that) is because a lot of what you mentioned about being able to run the business. Maybe most importantly, it's easier to pivot and make a wholesale career change if you want to if you have a college degree.

A plumber with only plumbing experience who hates plumbing can't wake up one day and go into corporate marketing or selling cybersecurity or be an associate accountant in a firm, whereas I can go start a plumbing company tomorrow because I can manage a business, I understand the basics around AR and AP and working capital and can be dangerous with an SMB version of QuickBooks in a matter of hours. I don't know maybe it's the chicken or the egg, because you obviously need field training and knowledge as well.

 

Edited March 20, 2023 by HamsterHookah

[Da Fino 2783]

10 hours ago, fattyflattie said:

Art history rekt me.  I spent so much time studying for that shit. Unfortunately, I don’t believe any of it took. 

The only class I ever failed in my entire life was art history. 

[HamsterHookah 112]

6 minutes ago, Murfdogg21 said:

Summary: Poor people should be not be discouraged from pursuing low ROI college majors/degrees with fewer lucrative job prospects so they can continue to be poor. 

 

1 hour ago, 52-80 said:

I dont think its bad that people value and pursue different things, without the “distortion” of that value by an indiscriminate money source.  

Its worse for society to have fewer economically-productive people than fewer people who happen to know the Iliad really well…and are also heavily indebted. 

I think the problem is you two are being colorblind as well.

When we talk about the Arts & Letters degree paths being dominated by the privilege class in a world where education is only looked at through the speed to value and ROI it can bring to the capital markets, we are saying that the Arts & Letters will continue to be dominated by the "Pale, Male & Yale" demographic. Didn't y'all read my review on Netflix's treatment of DeLillo's "White Noise"? Do we really need more of the 80's cultural scene? I'm joking because I think YFGIS would relate, but I'm serious.

When you make it to where only the elite can study disciplines and crafts that aren't directly tied to a production KPI the minute you leave the campus, you are marginalizing poor (and people of color, especially) in defining and curating what is cultural relevant, through our macro, shared aesthetic (via directly in what books get published, what movies get made, what art gets galleried, etc. through indirect as this is communicated and trickled down).

[YGIFS 19450]

Wait, what do I have to do with Yale and Don DeLillo?  

[millhouse 2607]

2 hours ago, 52-80 said:

a degree from MIT is more likely to put you in the luxury box than one from Missouri Tech. no point in pretending theyre gonna give you access to same seat at the ballpark.

Hahaha I went to grad school there and I think @jimmyjazzdid undergrad there. If you picked a random state + "tech" combo you some how managed get two of us

And I am not in a luxury box, but it has had a very good ROI

[jimmyjazz 45957]

4 minutes ago, millhouse said:

Hahaha I went to grad school there and I think @jimmyjazzdid undergrad there. If you picked a random state + "tech" combo you some how managed get two of us

And I am not in a luxury box, but it has had a very good ROI

Yeah, not "MO-Tech" but close.  Outstanding engineering school.  Just ask McDonnell-Douglas (Boeing).

[HamsterHookah 112]

15 minutes ago, YGIFS said:

Wait, what do I have to do with Yale and Don DeLillo?  

When I think of people who peaked in the 80's a la Bonfire of the Vanities, I think of you, is all.

[YGIFS 19450]

Well I was 11 when the book came out, so that's both harsh and kinda creepy dude.  I did get my first NES though that same year.

[Spaulding Smails 1552]

1 hour ago, HamsterHookah said:

Would like to get your thoughts on this, because I agree with you, but one of the reasons I still push for my children to get a college education versus an apprenticeship (if they had the desire to go straight into that) is because a lot of what you mentioned about being able to run the business. Maybe most importantly, it's easier to pivot and make a wholesale career change if you want to if you have a college degree.

A plumber with only plumbing experience who hates plumbing can't wake up one day and go into corporate marketing or selling cybersecurity or be an associate accountant in a firm, whereas I can go start a plumbing company tomorrow because I can manage a business, I understand the basics around AR and AP and working capital and can be dangerous with an SMB version of QuickBooks in a matter of hours. I don't know maybe it's the chicken or the egg, because you obviously need field training and knowledge as well.

Spot on.  That's a great question about the chicken and the egg.  And to your point, how many of us know exactly what we want to do for the rest of our lives when we're 19?  If my kids go that route, I would agree that the preferred sequence would be college then the trades.  Plus, I think there's value in the overall college experience, the social aspects, and everything that goes along with that point in your life when you can be a little carefree without too many obligations.  I think going back to school after a 5 year stint in the trades would be really tough and require a ton more discipline.   

Unless the degree is specific to a job like a computer programmer or chemical engineer, the value in my eyes from the sheepskin on the wall is more about learning how to learn, how to manage your time, and finishing what you started.  Heck, I got my degree from UT in Chemistry, and I'm running a plumbing / electrical / HVAC business.  The skills I use from my time at the 40 acres (personal discipline, time management, presenting in front of a crowd plus the obvious math and logic) are key, and I can honestly say I honed them during those four years on campus and they pay huge dividends every day.  

[52-80 19159]

1 hour ago, HamsterHookah said:

 

I think the problem is you two are being colorblind as well.

When we talk about the Arts & Letters degree paths being dominated by the privilege class in a world where education is only looked at through the speed to value and ROI it can bring to the capital markets, we are saying that the Arts & Letters will continue to be dominated by the "Pale, Male & Yale" demographic. Didn't y'all read my review on Netflix's treatment of DeLillo's "White Noise"? Do we really need more of the 80's cultural scene? I'm joking because I think YFGIS would relate, but I'm serious.

When you make it to where only the elite can study disciplines and crafts that aren't directly tied to a production KPI the minute you leave the campus, you are marginalizing poor (and people of color, especially) in defining and curating what is cultural relevant, through our macro, shared aesthetic (via directly in what books get published, what movies get made, what art gets galleried, etc. through indirect as this is communicated and trickled down).

You’re leapfrogging a few steps on the hierarchy of societal needs aren’t you. 

All those things are great and all, but the pressing issue in America isn’t a lack of relevant tastemakers promoting intersectional native american lesbian art, it’s a generation of graduates saddled with debt and lacking marketable skills. 

I wish I learned more of the liberal arts during school. I really do.  But my primacy was learning something to ensure a comfortable future living, which I’d rather have, than to be able to comfortably discuss Hegel with a customer….from behind a hotel bar. Fine with me if all the rich kids have that to themselves. 

[Jkwellborn 6702]

Spot on.  That's a great question about the chicken and the egg.  And to your point, how many of us know exactly what we want to do for the rest of our lives when we're 19?  If my kids go that route, I would agree that the preferred sequence would be college then the trades.  Plus, I think there's value in the overall college experience, the social aspects, and everything that goes along with that point in your life when you can be a little carefree without too many obligations.  I think going back to school after a 5 year stint in the trades would be really tough and require a ton more discipline.   
Unless the degree is specific to a job like a computer programmer or chemical engineer, the value in my eyes from the sheepskin on the wall is more about learning how to learn, how to manage your time, and finishing what you started.  Heck, I got my degree from UT in Chemistry, and I'm running a plumbing / electrical / HVAC business.  The skills I use from my time at the 40 acres (personal discipline, time management, presenting in front of a crowd plus the obvious math and logic) are key, and I can honestly say I honed them during those four years on campus and they pay huge dividends every day.  

Plenty of successful businesses like yours are being ran by people that hardly made it out of high school though.

[sidis 9828]

On 3/19/2023 at 9:32 AM, 52-80 said:

How many people working in finance have an art history degree tho

not that anyone actually gives a shit...but i am an owner in an economic consulting firm doing a significant amount of finance and i have a bfa in art history...along with a degree in economics, astronomy, and an mba...all from ut.  my required five semesters of fucking foreign language for the bfa thanks you for your consideration.

doing it all over again, all in on music theory.  in fact, seriously thinking about registering for a few courses soon.

college costs are obviously way too expensive.  i also agree that colleges have invested far too much in administrative elements of running a resort instead of focus on being an academic institution.  ignoring the importance to society of well-rounded educational frameworks including areas of study that you may find as inconsequential is silly and an enormous potential detriment to that society.  however, assuming equivalent economic outcomes regardless of focus/area of study and ignoring the demand for certain disciplines versus others in the marketplace is also very silly.  ou sucks.  can't remember what other systemic problems i need to solve here.

[HamsterHookah 112]

43 minutes ago, 52-80 said:

You’re leapfrogging a few steps on the hierarchy of societal needs aren’t you. 

All those things are great and all, but the pressing issue in America isn’t a lack of relevant tastemakers promoting intersectional native american lesbian art, it’s a generation of graduates saddled with debt and lacking marketable skills. 

But doesn't the data bear out that the "underwater basketweaving" degrees and "lesbian afro-diaspora art poetry" degrees that are maligned, are actually not the problem in that they constitute a low-percentage of degrees? 

Quote

I wish I learned more of the liberal arts during school. I really do.  But my primacy was learning something to ensure a comfortable future living, which I’d rather have, than to be able to comfortably discuss Hegel with a customer….from behind a hotel bar. Fine with me if all the rich kids have that to themselves. 

The bold above is commendable and pragmatic, and I'm not trying to be condescending when I say this, but that is because you are not of the Male, Pale and Yale privilege class who has the luxury of such things (which is not to say even if you did have the luxury, maybe you'd still enjoy learning about finance or banking or whatever would earn an upper middle class salary quickly). If memory serves you are Asian and likely a second or third degree American, which fits into exactly what that New Yorker article was saying:

Quote

"It also happens that low-access or first-generation college students are likeliest to be underrepresented in, and nudged toward, stem fields. If they do wander into a humanities course when they arrive, they can feel—like Kim—that the milieu is red-shifted away from them....

Quote

Kim concurred. “When I first joined the English department, I felt seen, but I also felt, Maybe I don’t belong,” she said. She’d gone to a magnet public school in New Jersey and felt a step behind the sanguine private-school kids in knowing how to perform her interest in the classroom. That kind of sorting is often invisible at first. “It definitely is a very specific community in the humanities,” Rebecca Cadenhead, an upperclassman from Westchester County, told me. “People in this group are usually from the Northeast, are usually upper middle class, are usually white, honestly, and are a certain way.” That way had a fashion element: chunky statement shoes (Doc Martens, Blundstones), baggy trousers (mostly Carhartt), and vintage sweaters. “There are many people of color and many low-income people in the humanities, but in general it’s people with that vibe, and we all know each other.”

Quote

 

"Sazi Bongwe, a Harvard freshman from Johannesburg, collaborated with three friends in high school during the pandemic on a magazine called Ukuzibuza. On arriving in Cambridge, he had to consider that the F1 visa, for international students, allows for a stay of a year in the U.S. after graduation—except for majors in a stem field, in which case one year of grace becomes three. Bongwe had come to Harvard with thoughts of a humanities major. But, like several international students with whom I spoke, he worried that the choice would be naïve.

“Am I just putting myself in a position where, in four years’ time, I’m going to be earning significantly less money than people I went to school with?” he asked. For students maintaining ties to countries with struggling economies—where the dollar goes far, and where their arrival at places like Harvard or A.S.U. carries the hopes of their communities—the moral and financial calculi are more than personal."

 

 

Edited March 20, 2023 by HamsterHookah

[Mrs Whiggins 13050]

29 minutes ago, 52-80 said:

You’re leapfrogging a few steps on the hierarchy of societal needs aren’t you. 

All those things are great and all, but the pressing issue in America isn’t a lack of relevant tastemakers promoting intersectional native american lesbian art, it’s a generation of graduates saddled with debt and lacking marketable skills. 

I wish I learned more of the liberal arts during school. I really do.  But my primacy was learning something to ensure a comfortable future living, which I’d rather have, than to be able to comfortably discuss Hegel with a customer….from behind a hotel bar. Fine with me if all the rich kids have that to themselves. 

Ok. I don't have a degree in the classics/classical studies, but this is getting a little hyperbolic don't you think? I mean Anthony Fauci got a classical studies degree and went somewhere with it, so even if one considers him an outlier, it's not like holders of such degrees are illiterate. I mean, I think Yale (not his alma mater) only graduated 9 seniors in classical studies two years ago so they are really stressing the job market with that high number....

Seriously, for every liberal arts major (and that is a broad broad category) would you like to address the numbers of students who are in no danger of becoming professional athletes but are majoring in degrees in kinesiology and sports? Again, I actually have no issue with this if it is part of a well-rounded degree plan, but again, how many will get into professional school, how many will become personal trainers, and so on? I am not trying to disrespect the major, but in what way is that career path less risky than the general liberal arts degree? No LA undergraduate degree that I've ever read about gets down as specific as you did in your example, so I'm going with a general bachelor's degree such as English, or History, or Gender Studies, and what have you. IMO either of those types of majors if, again, follow a well-rounded plan can qualify one to become a teacher (in many states) and that is actually a decent fall back plan, because the last time I checked, that field has some of the lowest unemployment numbers anywhere because so many have retired or left because it's a hard gig. I will add, though, the KINE major has an upside for females--they often go into physical therapy and raise the average salary for the major as a whole, because they earn more as PTs than do other careers within that field.

It's what you do with yourself while you're earning the degree, what opportunities unknown you're willing to consider, and how hard you're willing to work for it to make it happen. Critical thinking, planning, writing, breadth and foundation followed by depth. Skills that will take you far.

[BabaYaga 15298]

On 3/18/2023 at 2:09 PM, YGIFS said:

Ah yes, the "pointless degrees" argument.  Every one of those punchline, talking point, anecdotal degrees we use to make an argument is less than 5% of all college graduates.  And yet, elected and appointed officials use them to craft ALL higher education policy/funding nowadays.  That would be like Lupus dictating our entire health care model.  I'm glad people want to learn a trade.  You can do both, you can be licensed/skilled and also be a well-rounded citizen with critical thinking skills.  It's not fucking binary, because neither is the human brain.  

Yes, at some point in your life...somebody with an Art History degree made you coffee.  That's not the foundation for public policy, that just means you need to make your own fucking coffee at home for less money.  Half the folks in work with in finance don't have finance degrees.  You can learn to read a balance sheet in a few hours.  You can't learn critical thinking in a few hours, it takes exposure to many different fields.  Everybody conveniently fucking forgets that MOST, the MAJORITY, of your college credit hours were in something other than your technical field.  

Policies crafted around the loud minority?  Do tell....

[Spaulding Smails 1552]

9 minutes ago, Jkwellborn said:

Plenty of successful businesses like yours are being ran by people that hardly made it out of high school though.

Absolutely.  There's thousands of them out there.  But, there's also thousands that aren't as successful as they could be because of the lack of business acumen.  And, there's plenty that enjoy their trade and make great (but not amazing) money because they don't want to deal with the business side.  They want to work 8 hours and make a solid living, and there's nothing wrong with that at all.  I have four license holders that were former business owners that work for me that decided the juice wasn't worth the squeeze to be a business owner.  

My argument was simply that the blend of a college degree and a license in the trades is damn near a golden ticket.  I'm not a license holder in any trade, so I'm 100% reliant on the talented tradespeople around me.  Again, there's plenty that have made it big without a college degree, but I do think it's a significant value add when you can combine the two.

One of the things that I've noticed is that there's a sweet spot for the ones that are good (but not great) at the business side, whether you have a degree or not.  They can typically run 6-8 employees without any issues.  They can touch most of their jobs and effectively manage their people without the need of middle management.  Maybe one office manager or a bookkeeper.  Anything less than that, and they have to be swinging a hammer or turning a wrench to make it work.  Anything more than that, and they get to the point where they need help running the business, so they need to almost double in size to substantiate the added overhead.  Growth is plateaued, not linear, and many are content with staying small and not having the headaches that come along with a growing business.  

[Mrs Whiggins 13050]

3 hours ago, longhornmatt said:

There should be a reverse resort university arms race at this point.  A SALT Treaty disarmament. "No, we don't have a rec center.  You know you can get a gym membership for like $30 a month, right?  This way you don't have to pay an extra $5,000 in tuition just to have an on campus gym you won't use!   Also, instead of a division of community engagement with 10 assistant vice presidents, we're trying a new thing where you just ... engage the community yourself. Like an adult.  We cut back on $1,500,000 in annual salaries, and replaced it with this $1.00 brochure from the United Way!"

This is good, rep to you. The resort university and the Marketing Of The College Experience. The latter drives me crazy. I mentioned a page or so ago about my spouse accompanying one of our children to the orientation. He was so pissed. Instead of practical information, it was all sales. He was like wth, these kids are already admitted and you're wasting our time; but that was what it was. I guess since so much is available at the touch of a smartphone, the officials assume that students will be able to locate what they need at point of crisis. Which is weird, because even though my children are capable and fairly intelligent, they appreciate a friendly heads up when trying to separate the useful nuggets from the clickbait.

Double yes on the resort gyms, the dorms that are fancier than my home, and so on. Even with the dorms built on leased land (owned by the state system but leased to the developer) I'd like to know who ends up with the aging building in twenty years time. These places may look fancy on the inside with their laminate wood floors and granite countertops, but they don't seem like they're built well overall.

I am also a little shocked that tuition at TAMU Commerce is not too much less than tuition at UT. I picked Commerce as I knew it wasn't that large and is a system school, but it's over $4000 dollars a semester if I read the webpage right.

 

 

 

[HamsterHookah 112]

34 minutes ago, Mrs Whiggins said:

This is good, rep to you. The resort university and the Marketing Of The College Experience. The latter drives me crazy. I mentioned a page or so ago about my spouse accompanying one of our children to the orientation. He was so pissed. Instead of practical information, it was all sales. He was like wth, these kids are already admitted and you're wasting our time; but that was what it was. I guess since so much is available at the touch of a smartphone, the officials assume that students will be able to locate what they need at point of crisis. Which is weird, because even though my children are capable and fairly intelligent, they appreciate a friendly heads up when trying to separate the useful nuggets from the clickbait.

Double yes on the resort gyms, the dorms that are fancier than my home, and so on. Even with the dorms built on leased land (owned by the state system but leased to the developer) I'd like to know who ends up with the aging building in twenty years time. These places may look fancy on the inside with their laminate wood floors and granite countertops, but they don't seem like they're built well overall.

I am also a little shocked that tuition at TAMU Commerce is not too much less than tuition at UT. I picked Commerce as I knew it wasn't that large and is a system school, but it's over $4000 dollars a semester if I read the webpage right.

 

 

 

Yikes.

There was a guy saying UTD where he sent his son was $40k/year.

[52-80 19159]

47 minutes ago, HamsterHookah said:

But doesn't the data bear out that the "underwater basketweaving" degrees and "lesbian afro-diaspora art poetry" degrees that are maligned, are actually not the problem in that they constitute a low-percentage of degrees?

Let's reset it to the problem: burgeoning student debt.  What portion of those suffocated by it are in medicine and engineering vs something else?  I sympathize a bit for graduates the something else category, because they've paid the same price for something less marketable, and it's not obvious to me the schools are incentivized to adjust to this dynamic.  (I could be wrong, these non-lucrative departments could be operating hand-to-mouth...)

 

42 minutes ago, Mrs Whiggins said:

Ok. I don't have a degree in the classics/classical studies, but this is getting a little hyperbolic don't you think? I mean Anthony Fauci got a classical studies degree and went somewhere with it, so even if one considers him an outlier, it's not like holders of such degrees are illiterate. I mean, I think Yale (not his alma mater) only graduated 9 seniors in classical studies two years ago so they are really stressing the job market with that high number....

Seriously, for every liberal arts major (and that is a broad broad category) would you like to address the numbers of students who are in no danger of becoming professional athletes but are majoring in degrees in kinesiology and sports? Again, I actually have no issue with this if it is part of a well-rounded degree plan, but again, how many will get into professional school, how many will become personal trainers, and so on? I am not trying to disrespect the major, but in what way is that career path less risky than the general liberal arts degree? No LA undergraduate degree that I've ever read about gets down as specific as you did in your example, so I'm going with a general bachelor's degree such as English, or History, or Gender Studies, and what have you. IMO either of those types of majors if, again, follow a well-rounded plan can qualify one to become a teacher (in many states) and that is actually a decent fall back plan, because the last time I checked, that field has some of the lowest unemployment numbers anywhere because so many have retired or left because it's a hard gig. I will add, though, the KINE major has an upside for females--they often go into physical therapy and raise the average salary for the major as a whole, because they earn more as PTs than do other careers within that field.

It's what you do with yourself while you're earning the degree, what opportunities unknown you're willing to consider, and how hard you're willing to work for it to make it happen. Critical thinking, planning, writing, breadth and foundation followed by depth. Skills that will take you far.

Fauci holds an MD.

I'm not lionizing any one discipline.  (A technocratic society full of nerds probably isnt great).  I'm just reflecting the realities of society.  To solve a problem at scale, you have to look at things in aggregate.  So while I agree that all of these individual factors drive personal outcome, en masse, society simply values one degree far more than another.  And my point is that the prices of these degree should better mirror that. 

An 18 year old given the same size check no matter what they study maybe won't make the most rational decision.... one that they'll grow to regret 

 

 

[sidis 9828]

6 minutes ago, 52-80 said:

Let's reset it to the problem: burgeoning student debt.  What portion of those suffocated by it are in medicine and engineering vs something else?  I sympathize a bit for graduates the something else category, because they've paid the same price for something less marketable, and it's not obvious to me the schools are incentivized to adjust to this dynamic.  (I could be wrong, these non-lucrative departments could be operating hand-to-mouth...)

 

Fauci holds an MD.

I'm not lionizing any one discipline.  (A technocratic society full of nerds probably isnt great).  I'm just reflecting the realities of society.  To solve a problem at scale, you have to look at things in aggregate.  So while I agree that all of these individual factors drive personal outcome, en masse, society simply values one degree far more than another.  And my point is that the prices of these degree should better mirror that. 

An 18 year old given the same size check no matter what they study maybe won't make the most rational decision.... one that they'll grow to regret 

 

 

no art history, eh...

[52-80 19159]

2 minutes ago, sidis said:

no art history, eh...

art historians aren't even allowed a ZipRecruiter account.

[HamsterHookah 112]

11 minutes ago, 52-80 said:

Let's reset it to the problem: burgeoning student debt.  What portion of those suffocated by it are in medicine and engineering vs something else?  I sympathize a bit for graduates the something else category, because they've paid the same price for something less marketable, and it's not obvious to me the schools are incentivized to adjust to this dynamic.  (I could be wrong, these non-lucrative departments could be operating hand-to-mouth...)

The better question, versus just the nominal amount of debt held at graduation, would be to factor in income and ability to service debt. So maybe a look at the debt held at n+interest after 10 years or something like that? E.g. a Pre-med/med school student loan obligation of $300k is different than an Education student loan of $120k.

That said, the data I did find shows that the median debt load is manageable and serviceable (from 2023): https://educationdata.org/student-loan-debt-by-major

E.g. RTF types are graduating with $26k (privilege?) where jobs as a gaffer are probably $40k. 

[Mrs Whiggins 13050]

21 minutes ago, HamsterHookah said:

Yikes.

There was a guy saying UTD where he sent his son was $40k/year.

The yearly rate there (tuition and fees only) was about $10,000/year. The ~4000 number was when someone enrolled in 12 hours. So $40K total for four years not including housing etc.--that adds a lot.

18 minutes ago, 52-80 said:

Let's reset it to the problem: burgeoning student debt.  What portion of those suffocated by it are in medicine and engineering vs something else?  I sympathize a bit for graduates the something else category, because they've paid the same price for something less marketable, and it's not obvious to me the schools are incentivized to adjust to this dynamic.  (I could be wrong, these non-lucrative departments could be operating hand-to-mouth...)

 

Fauci holds an MD.

I'm not lionizing any one discipline.  (A technocratic society full of nerds probably isnt great).  I'm just reflecting the realities of society.  To solve a problem at scale, you have to look at things in aggregate.  So while I agree that all of these individual factors drive personal outcome, en masse, society simply values one degree far more than another.  And my point is that the prices of these degree should better mirror that. 

An 18 year old given the same size check no matter what they study maybe won't make the most rational decision.... one that they'll grow to regret

I understand Fauci has an MD, but his bachelor's degree was classics, and thus a start for an opportunity which he took on to medical school and beyond.

Your chart regarding the regret--does it say to which major the respondent would've selected? What if an English major wanted to switch to Political Science, for example?

Edited March 20, 2023 by Mrs Whiggins

[Mrs Whiggins 13050]

Wait. I think I understand now. Found an article from WaPo that discussed the topic. It wasn't the major they regretted as much as the debt incurred in achieving a degree in that field. That is problematic because, as you infer, how does one achieve the degree in the field to which they are perhaps best suited and happiest for the best price? Is that what you mean?

[52-80 19159]

7 minutes ago, HamsterHookah said:

That said, the data I did find shows that the median debt load is manageable and serviceable (from 2023): https://educationdata.org/student-loan-debt-by-major

E.g. RTF types are graduating with $26k (privilege?) where jobs as a gaffer are probably $40k. 

If that takeaway is true, then all the chirping in popular news about runaway schooling costs is overstated, and we're left with only a Problem of the Few....which is cud not worth chewing

https://www.brookings.edu/research/ed-depts-college-scorecard-shows-where-student-loans-pay-off-and-where-they-dont/

Overall, the data show that many students are successful after graduation, accrue debts that are modest relative to their earnings, and thrive because of their educational investments.

But clearly not all succeed—some borrow to attend programs like cosmetology or associate’s degrees in liberal studies that don’t lead to high-paying jobs. Others borrow large amounts that far exceed typical earnings in their field (like master’s degrees in arts like music, drama, or film).

 

[Guest]

4 hours ago, HamsterHookah said:

Great post.

Would like to get your thoughts on this, because I agree with you, but one of the reasons I still push for my children to get a college education versus an apprenticeship (if they had the desire to go straight into that) is because a lot of what you mentioned about being able to run the business. Maybe most importantly, it's easier to pivot and make a wholesale career change if you want to if you have a college degree.

A plumber with only plumbing experience who hates plumbing can't wake up one day and go into corporate marketing or selling cybersecurity or be an associate accountant in a firm, whereas I can go start a plumbing company tomorrow because I can manage a business, I understand the basics around AR and AP and working capital and can be dangerous with an SMB version of QuickBooks in a matter of hours. I don't know maybe it's the chicken or the egg, because you obviously need field training and knowledge as well.

 

You describe a situation in the second paragraph that is tantamount to the entire discussion:  education and post-graduate degrees aren't necessarily good because of directly paying off in higher income.  Options/ choices are fucking good in life and are  highly underrated.

[tx 3 putt 76958]

@Mrs Whiggins I 100% believe that uti is predatory, but they put out a more polished student than the vast majority colleges. UTI is an automotive mechanic school, here’s a short list of companies you’ll see at their career fair - multiple branches of Exxon, Shell, Oxy, Conoco, BP, many midstream companies, multiple service companies - schlumberger, Halliburton, baker, multiple rotating equipment oem’s and every automotive group you can name.

every engineering college would love to have that list hiring at their university.

afrer we started hiring there, it was nothing for our booth to have a line of 100+ students wanting to give us their resume and talk with us. 

Edited March 20, 2023 by tx 3 putt

[TwiceHorn 31472]

On 3/19/2023 at 9:32 AM, 52-80 said:

How many people working in finance have an art history degree tho

I guess he's not working in finance anymore, but Michael Lewis.

I think there's a pretty bizarre assortment of undergrads with high-end MBAs working on Wall Street.

[Pancho 44804]

I’ve been both a professor and now an administrator in higher ed. I can give you some perspective. 

But know this—tuition increases because funding from states is less and less each year. This isn’t the politics board, so we won’t go into that. Also, paying for just basic stuff costs a ton of money—IT infrastructure, keeping a campus clean and maintained, the damn light bills, lawsuits, faculty COLA (which sometimes doesn’t even apply to administrators), plus other stuff I don’t think many people think about when it comes to just running the actual institution. Some of those jobs, institutions can’t even fill because they either don’t pay well, aren’t hybrid, or don’t allow for a good work/home balance. 

When I taught, I had a ton of Workforce students who were in my Public Speaking and Interpersonal Communications classes. Most of them didn’t understand why they had to take my class, but after the first few lectures, you could see it click. One Workforce guy was getting his certificate for being an electrician, I believe, and he told me after class that my class was the only one he looked forward do and he didn’t even want to be an electrician. His dad was making him do that. 

I haven’t caught up on the entire thread, so the topic may have changed a bit. From my research over the last few years, yes the tuition price tag and not wanting debt has a factor in why enrollment has declined since 2019, but that’s not the most major reason. Other factors include mental health, having to take care of their families, and needing to work to pay bills. These students still want a degree, but they don’t think they can do it because of those reasons. 

And Black and Latino Males have the lowest completion, success, and persistence rates at pretty much every college, community college, and university in the country. 

[52-80 19159]

17 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

I guess he's not working in finance anymore, but Michael Lewis.

I think there's a pretty bizarre assortment of undergrads with high-end MBAs working on Wall Street.

He broke in the industry with a graduate degree in econ, after realizing art alone doesn't pay.

The LA undergrad as a stepping stone seems great.  Broad background with a "useful" specialization. 

Popular news and media makes it seem as if there's an epidemic of highly indebted students with *only* unattractive education.  I usually lean towards Caveat Emptor, but can see how the flow of e.g. Stafford loans might encourage a teenager to act in ways that are not so economic.

HamsterHookah's links argues the above (portrayed in media) isn't actually pervasive or acute.  So maybe this is all moot.

[Mrs Whiggins 13050]

1 hour ago, tx 3 putt said:

@Mrs Whiggins I 100% believe that uti is predatory, but they put out a more polished student than the vast majority colleges. UTI is an automotive mechanic school, here’s a short list of companies you’ll see at their career fair - multiple branches of Exxon, Shell, Oxy, Conoco, BP, many midstream companies, multiple service companies - schlumberger, Halliburton, baker, multiple rotating equipment oem’s and every automotive group you can name.

every engineering college would love to have that list hiring at their university.

afrer we started hiring there, it was nothing for our booth to have a line of 100+ students wanting to give us their resume and talk with us. 

If your hires are happy doing what they do and you're happy with your hires, then I'd say that's a win-win. Some schools could stand to have an ethics reckoning with respect to transparency but I do think there has been some progress made in that direction (regarding financial aspects), and it also speaks to @Pancho's post regarding the course on Public Speaking/Communication. Schools involved in applied learning, learning such as automotive mechanics, having a few requirements in foundational broader topics that help in areas that may not, at first, be obvious to the student are such an asset. They provide, what Slorch and Hamster were saying: opportunities. The student who is quite adept with the mechanical side may also discover through a class such as Pancho's that with a little practice and training they can pivot to a related area where their knowledge and expertise combined with the communication skill is a desirable additional reward that they can keep in their back pocket until need or desire arises.

Edited March 21, 2023 by Mrs Whiggins
contraction mishap.

[Hook1997 5354]

A competent Plummer or electrician with a bit of business knowledge could make a very comfortable living running a business in most small to medium size cities in Texas right now from what I’ve seen and heard people talking about.  All I hear about from people is how it’s a long wait for both and a lot of the older ones are at retirement age.  The problem is finding good employees I'm sure.  

[Schulz2.0 28951]

39 minutes ago, Hook1997 said:

All I hear about from people is how it’s a long wait for both and a lot of the older ones are at retirement age.  The problem is finding good employees I'm sure.  

That's pretty much every business right now. A family friend on my wife's side runs a restaurant. He can't hire enough waiters, dishwashers, and bus boys. My wife's uncle runs custodial services for a school district in the Midwest. He can't find people for those jobs. I working skilled labor. We've been short as more boomers retire. My wife works in construction QA/QC. They're short of people.

We're short of working age people, period. There's a pretty strong argument to be made for immigration, but...

[HamsterHookah 112]

Stat: Getting into an Ivy League school is hard, but paying for it may be harder. The cost of attending classes in a Gothic building is approaching $90,000 per year, according to Bloomberg. While ~50% of students at these institutions receive financial aid (enough that one economist said the price of attendance has gone down for students from households making less than $125k), it still puts the sticker price for becoming someone people roll their eyes at when you name-drop your school above the annual income of many US families.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-03-28/how-much-is-ivy-league-school-education-costs-are-nearing-90-000-a-year

[MonkeyDoughnut 10235]

5 minutes ago, HamsterHookah said:

Stat: Getting into an Ivy League school is hard, but paying for it may be harder. The cost of attending classes in a Gothic building is approaching $90,000 per year, according to Bloomberg. While ~50% of students at these institutions receive financial aid (enough that one economist said the price of attendance has gone down for students from households making less than $125k), it still puts the sticker price for becoming someone people roll their eyes at when you name-drop your school above the annual income of many US families.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-03-28/how-much-is-ivy-league-school-education-costs-are-nearing-90-000-a-year

Not surprised seeing their tuition rise too when many went test optional. Makes the rich get richer a little easier not having to deal with SAT/ACT "issues".  Note that staggering number of 50% paying full price.  I'm betting a large portion of the other 50% paying close to that as well.

[Jkwellborn 6702]

That's pretty much every business right now. A family friend on my wife's side runs a restaurant. He can't hire enough waiters, dishwashers, and bus boys. My wife's uncle runs custodial services for a school district in the Midwest. He can't find people for those jobs. I working skilled labor. We've been short as more boomers retire. My wife works in construction QA/QC. They're short of people.
We're short of working age people, period. There's a pretty strong argument to be made for immigration, but...

I don’t think it’s necessarily short of working age people, working willed people is different.

[Schulz2.0 28951]

10 minutes ago, Jkwellborn said:

I don’t think it’s necessarily short of working age people, working willed people is different.

Peter Zeihan talks constantly about demographics and has mentioned the difference in the incoming workers and retiring workers is around -400,000 and is going to expand to -900,000 over the next decade. 

I'm 40 and I remember plenty of people growing up that sat on their asses and didn't work. Seems like every generation thinks the ones coming after them just don't want to work hard like they did.

[Brothahorn 10087]

Jim Fish, chief executive of Waste Management Inc., described the situation this way: “We can’t hire a truck driver to drive a trash truck for $90,000 in Houston, Texas, but I can hire an M.B.A. from a small school for $60,000, and I can get them all day long.”

“The world seems to have flipped on its head,” Mr. Fish says.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/jobs-new-college-graduates-2023-labor-market-openings-7195e28

[Nice Guy Eddie 13512]

12 minutes ago, Brothahorn said:

Jim Fish, chief executive of Waste Management Inc., described the situation this way: “We can’t hire a truck driver to drive a trash truck for $90,000 in Houston, Texas, but I can hire an M.B.A. from a small school for $60,000, and I can get them all day long.”

“The world seems to have flipped on its head,” Mr. Fish says.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/jobs-new-college-graduates-2023-labor-market-openings-7195e28

That a very interesting post and observation by him. Thanks for posting.

Many young men, especially those with some college if not a grad, who would turn their nose up at driving a trash truck. Regardless of the pay. Or there might be young men would jump at the chance but they're unaware of the opportunity. 

Not that the CEO of WM is asking my opinion but how about hiring that MBA and part of the training involves driving a truck to learn the entire business before moving up in the mgmt ranks. Didn't UPS require their new mgmt hires start as a driver, at least in the past?