More Students Are Turning Away From College and Toward Apprenticeships

[CHIEF 5094]

I talked to my son about scholarships and grants for vocational training/ apprenticeships vs. college funds available. He is about to graduate college with an ME. He is adamant that there is a ton more money available for vocational training than for college, and it isn't even close. I asked him to show his work, but good luck with that. He said his buddies that went that route had jobs already lined up when they started their training, and that there are a shitload of companies that will pick up the tab, if the trainees are willing to sign some kind of contract. These are good jobs that pay high five figure and low six figure salaries, and they won't ding you for footing the bill on the education. 

One of my best friends from college dropped out of ME and went to TSTC in Waco to get an associate in automation engineering. He has been working for Chemlime for 35 years, automating their lime plants. He has worked at the Schertz plant, and the Clifton plant, when he wanted to move back home. He has been making six figures for, at least, 30 of those years. It's mainly been an office job, with occasional field work for the install. 

When you look at the cost analysis, it is easy to see why it is the better route for a lot of young men.

CHIEF

[Brisketexan 105184]

50 minutes ago, Brothahorn said:

Jim Fish, chief executive of Waste Management Inc., described the situation this way: “We can’t hire a truck driver to drive a trash truck for $90,000 in Houston, Texas, but I can hire an M.B.A. from a small school for $60,000, and I can get them all day long.”

“The world seems to have flipped on its head,” Mr. Fish says.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/jobs-new-college-graduates-2023-labor-market-openings-7195e28

 

10 minutes ago, CHIEF said:

I talked to my son about scholarships and grants for vocational training/ apprenticeships vs. college funds available. He is about to graduate college with an ME. He is adamant that there is a ton more money available for vocational training than for college, and it isn't even close. I asked him to show his work, but good luck with that. He said his buddies that went that route had jobs already lined up when they started their training, and that there are a shitload of companies that will pick up the tab, if the trainees are willing to sign some kind of contract. These are good jobs that pay high five figure and low six figure salaries, and they won't ding you for footing the bill on the education. 

One of my best friends from college dropped out of ME and went to TSTC in Waco to get an associate in automation engineering. He has been working for Chemlime for 35 years, automating their lime plants. He has worked at the Schertz plant, and the Clifton plant, when he wanted to move back home. He has been making six figures for, at least, 30 of those years. It's mainly been an office job, with occasional field work for the install. 

When you look at the cost analysis, it is easy to see why it is the better route for a lot of young men.

CHIEF

The bolded is correct. But the top post is incomplete.

25 yr old truck driver: $90k.

25 yr old MBA: $60k.

Pretty good deal for the truck driver.  But let's go forward in time....

40 yr old truck driver: $105k

40 yr old MBA: $200k

The GENERAL truth remains: if you can manage it, and have the aptitude for it, a marketable degree (esp. postgrad degree) will provide a better lifetime earning potential than NOT having such a degree.  But that also doesn't mean that a well-trained, skilled, non-degreed guy can't make a plenty good living and have a plenty good life.  I mean, I have a postgrad degree, and make damn good money....but I bet the guy driving the truck for WM gets to go fishing WAY more often than I do, and he doesn't take his work home with him every night and on the weekends.  My path has its upsides and downsides.  The truck driver path has its upsides and downsides.

Know who you are, and what will work best for you, and make the decision that's right for you.  It's good that options are out there, but go into ANY of them with eyes wide open as to the risk-reward.  Guys with postgrad degrees making lots of cash don't get to bitch about pressure or long hours -- we chose that.  Guys who drive a truck who don't have to take their worries home with them don't get to bitch that the 40 yr old MBA is making twice what the do -- he chose that.

Edited March 31, 2023 by Brisketexan

[Nice Guy Eddie 13515]

3 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

 

The bolded is correct. But the top post is incomplete.

25 yr old truck driver: $90k.

25 yr old MBA: $60k.

Pretty good deal for the truck driver.  But let's go forward in time....

40 yr old truck driver: $105k

40 yr old MBA: $200k

Great point that long term, the MBA should easily catch and pass the compensation of the truck driver.

It's still odd that WM can neither find nor train 25 year olds willing to make 90K as a truck driver. Perhaps WM doesn't want to train someone for the job.

[HamsterHookah 112]

37 minutes ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

Great point that long term, the MBA should easily catch and pass the compensation of the truck driver.

It's still odd that WM can neither find nor train 25 year olds willing to make 90K as a truck driver. Perhaps WM doesn't want to train someone for the job.

@Brisketexanpost is smack-on. Agree completely.

That said, on your post, and as someone who has done a lot of consulting work for WM-- they are a mess of an organization who has grown through acquisition and at one point had one of the worst SG&A's in the G2k-- so I have no doubt they would have bled money to hire, train and then pay a 25 year old rookie $90k to drive a trash truck at one point. Certainly not today in this environment, though.

[HamsterHookah 112]

For those thinking community college is an answer:

Quote

 

Community colleges are far cheaper than four-year schools. Published tuition and fees last year averaged $3,860, versus $39,400 at private and $10,940 at public four-year universities, with many states making community college free.

Yet consumers are abandoning them in droves. The number of students at community colleges has fallen 37% since 2010, or by nearly 2.6 million, according to the National Student Clearinghouse Research Center.

“The reckoning is here,” said Davis Jenkins, senior research scholar at the Community College Research Center at Teachers College, Columbia University. (The Hechinger Report, which produced this story, is an independent unit of Teachers College.)

Those numbers would be even more grim if they didn’t include high school students taking dual-enrollment courses, according to the Community College Research Center. High school students make up nearly a fifth of community college enrollment.

 

Quote

 

Yet even as these colleges serve fewer students, their already low success rates have by at least one measure gotten worse.

While four out of five students who begin at a community college say they plan to go on to get a bachelor's degree, only about one in six of them actually manages to do it. That's down by nearly 15% since 2020, according to the clearinghouse.

Two-year community colleges have the worst completion rates of any kind of university or college. Only slightly more than 40% finish within six years.

These frustrated wanderers include a disproportionate share of Black and Hispanic students. Half of all Hispanic and 40% of all Black students in higher education are enrolled at community colleges, the American Association of Community Colleges says.

The spurning of community colleges has implications for the national economy, which relies on their graduates to fill many of the jobs in which there are shortages. Those include positions as nurses, dental hygienists, emergency medical technicians, vehicle mechanics and electrical linemen, and in fields including information technology, construction, manufacturing, transportation and law enforcement.

 

Lastly and most importantly:

Quote

Employers, meanwhile, are unimpressed with the quality of community college students who manage to graduate. Only about a third agree that community colleges produce graduates who are ready to work, according to a survey released in December by researchers at the Harvard Business School.

https://www.dallasnews.com/news/education/2023/04/03/us-community-colleges-are-reeling-from-plummeting-enrollment-the-reckoning-is-here/

Edited April 4, 2023 by HamsterHookah

[RPM 26329]

[HamsterHookah 112]

On 3/20/2023 at 2:28 PM, 52-80 said:

You’re leapfrogging a few steps on the hierarchy of societal needs aren’t you. 

All those things are great and all, but the pressing issue in America isn’t a lack of relevant tastemakers promoting intersectional native american lesbian art, it’s a generation of graduates saddled with debt and lacking marketable skills. 

I wish I learned more of the liberal arts during school. I really do.  But my primacy was learning something to ensure a comfortable future living, which I’d rather have, than to be able to comfortably discuss Hegel with a customer….from behind a hotel bar. Fine with me if all the rich kids have that to themselves. 

Quote

 

In a 1966 booklet called “College Admissions and the Public Interest,” B. Alden Thresher, the first ever director of admissions at MIT, laid out two approaches to higher education: the “poetic” and the “utilitarian.” While “utilitarian” students were “impelled by practical considerations,” their “poetic” counterparts took “innate pleasure” in learning.

Well, Harvard poets are now few and far between: As of 2022, more than forty percent of working seniors go into either consulting or finance. That number jumps to 58 percent when you add in the technology sector. By comparison, employment in the nonprofit or public service sector sits below four percent.

 

Read this and thought it was interesting: https://api.thecrimson.com/article/2023/4/21/barton-harvard-graduate-consulting-finance/

[Beau Vine 54322]

On 3/18/2023 at 11:03 AM, Sawbonz said:

The world needs Lacey's nipples.

[52-80 19207]

29 minutes ago, HamsterHookah said:

Read this and thought it was interesting: https://api.thecrimson.com/article/2023/4/21/barton-harvard-graduate-consulting-finance/

I found it nauseating. 

When I was going through grade school, higher education was promoted as the great societal equalizer. It's been just that for many people, immigrants especially.  Now this article thinly suggests those people are still unequal on the woolly basis of academic sophistication?  Because their "pecuniary" approach is tantamount to "selling out" to McKinsey, which represents an "abstract pall"? 

I can smell the condescension from here.  Thanks Aden Barton '24, good luck with your blog.

(And if I misread the tenor of his article, it's because I'm just one of those cavemen prole)

[Helobious 9464]

On 3/31/2023 at 12:14 PM, Brisketexan said:

 

The bolded is correct. But the top post is incomplete.

25 yr old truck driver: $90k.

25 yr old MBA: $60k.

Pretty good deal for the truck driver.  But let's go forward in time....

40 yr old truck driver: $105k

40 yr old MBA: $200k

 

40 yr old truck driver will be making $0 because that’s not going to be a profession anymore by then. MBA guy might be fucked too but will at least have more options probably.

[Schulz2.0 28995]

1 hour ago, Helobious said:

40 yr old truck driver will be making $0 because that’s not going to be a profession anymore by then. MBA guy might be fucked too but will at least have more options probably.

Yes, yes. Just the way trains have been replaced.

[HamsterHookah 112]

3 hours ago, 52-80 said:

I found it nauseating. 

When I was going through grade school, higher education was promoted as the great societal equalizer. It's been just that for many people, immigrants especially.  Now this article thinly suggests those people are still unequal on the woolly basis of academic sophistication?  Because their "pecuniary" approach is tantamount to "selling out" to McKinsey, which represents an "abstract pall"? 

I can smell the condescension from here.  Thanks Aden Barton '24, good luck with your blog.

(And if I misread the tenor of his article, it's because I'm just one of those cavemen prole)

Also because you take the utilitarian bend as a recent-enough immigrant to not have the privilege of the truly upper class America (as most of us here lack as well, or else we would be posting on YalieBulldog.com instead of having slummed it up at UT).

Liberal Arts is increasingly the bastion of the lucky and the privileged, is my takeaway. And I’m not sure how generative AI will help.

But I also thought the article read like a college student wrote it and it was Try-Hardy.

Edited April 25, 2023 by HamsterHookah

[Jkwellborn 6715]

40 yr old truck driver will be making $0 because that’s not going to be a profession anymore by then. MBA guy might be fucked too but will at least have more options probably.

The fuck?

[tx 3 putt 77245]

On 3/31/2023 at 12:06 PM, CHIEF said:

I talked to my son about scholarships and grants for vocational training/ apprenticeships vs. college funds available. He is about to graduate college with an ME. He is adamant that there is a ton more money available for vocational training than for college, and it isn't even close. I asked him to show his work, but good luck with that. He said his buddies that went that route had jobs already lined up when they started their training, and that there are a shitload of companies that will pick up the tab, if the trainees are willing to sign some kind of contract. These are good jobs that pay high five figure and low six figure salaries, and they won't ding you for footing the bill on the education. 

One of my best friends from college dropped out of ME and went to TSTC in Waco to get an associate in automation engineering. He has been working for Chemlime for 35 years, automating their lime plants. He has worked at the Schertz plant, and the Clifton plant, when he wanted to move back home. He has been making six figures for, at least, 30 of those years. It's mainly been an office job, with occasional field work for the install. 

When you look at the cost analysis, it is easy to see why it is the better route for a lot of young men.

CHIEF

 

san jac has a millwright program, those kids are normally 100% sponsored by a company with a job waiting upon graduation 

[DalTxHornFan 3109]

3 hours ago, Helobious said:

40 yr old truck driver will be making $0 because that’s not going to be a profession anymore by then. MBA guy might be fucked too but will at least have more options probably.

Until today, I had no idea that Elon posted on Surly.

[YGIFS 19452]

I think maybe he's talking about autonomous driven trucks?  I've been wondering myself IRL since I deal in trucking, but that has to be what he means.  He just didn't amplify his response.  It's a whole other conversation for another thread, but yeah...long haul and deadheads...that will be plurality driven by autonomous cabs by the end of the decade.  But the whole industry from drayage to last mile to LTL to specialized, that won't be for a long while.  Costs are coming down and people don't want those jobs anymore, it's more a function of how our roads and logistics infrastructure are built is all.  Long story.  

[Jkwellborn 6715]

 
san jac has a millwright program, those kids are normally 100% sponsored by a company with a job waiting upon graduation 

A buddy of mine went through some diesel mechanic program in Corsicana. John Deere paid for it and he went to work at a dealer for several years.

Pretty sure a lot of the automotive schools allow dealer sponsors and stuff.

[tx 3 putt 77245]

7 minutes ago, Jkwellborn said:

A buddy of mine went through some diesel mechanic program in Corsicana. John Deere paid for it and he went to work at a dealer for several years.

Pretty sure a lot of the automotive schools allow dealer sponsors and stuff.

 

UTI job fair - every auto dealership, exxon, bp, oxy, shell, every OF service company you can name, every chem plant you can name, every company that does business with chem plants. when i was on the hiring team at their job fair, those kids knew they could make $100k+ within 12 of hiring on. we'd have a line of 50 kids waiting to talk with us. 

[Helobious 9464]

1 hour ago, Jkwellborn said:

The fuck?

 

1 hour ago, DalTxHornFan said:

Until today, I had no idea that Elon posted on Surly.

https://www.atbs.com/post/self-driving-trucks-are-truck-drivers-out-of-a-jo
 

YGIFS knew what I meant. You’ll rarely see humans in driving semis in 5 years and it’s straight up foolish to choose that as a career path right now.

[NotActuallyALonghorn 4976]

Lol, you didn't even read the article you posted.

[Guest]

On 3/31/2023 at 11:51 AM, Nice Guy Eddie said:

That a very interesting post and observation by him. Thanks for posting.

Many young men, especially those with some college if not a grad, who would turn their nose up at driving a trash truck. Regardless of the pay. Or there might be young men would jump at the chance but they're unaware of the opportunity. 

Not that the CEO of WM is asking my opinion but how about hiring that MBA and part of the training involves driving a truck to learn the entire business before moving up in the mgmt ranks. Didn't UPS require their new mgmt hires start as a driver, at least in the past?

My employer does that too, although it has become vastly decreased because the noobs don't like it much. (ewwww. It's work!!!)  It was 12 weeks when I started.  Now it's 4 and they are debating shortening it more. The line of thought has been that it builds a better understanding of  what your frontline people face, so that you may manage and lead better through obstacles and everyday processes.

The best ones get out there in the field and immerse themselves in better understanding anyway. Others hide in the office crunching numbers.  They usually aren't leading people very long.

[DalTxHornFan 3109]

11 minutes ago, NotActuallyALonghorn said:

Lol, you didn't even read the article you posted.

That article pretty much blows the premise of eliminating humans anytime soon.  Most commercial jets are semi-autonomous these days, too.  I don't see the commercial pilots going away anytime soon.

[YGIFS 19452]

Good point about the planes.  It’s been largely automated for decades.  Tony Seba talked about how it’s largely psychological for us.  We need to see that there’s one of us in the cockpit or hear them at least or we freak the hell out up there.  
 

truck drivers make mistakes, they get tired, they sneeze, they get angry, they get complacent.  Autonomous trucks don’t do those things.  Within a few years, nobody will psychological need to know there’s a human in that.  The only person that will miss truck drivers is Thomas J Henry. 

[Hermanator 7124]

7 hours ago, Helobious said:

 

https://www.atbs.com/post/self-driving-trucks-are-truck-drivers-out-of-a-jo
 

YGIFS knew what I meant. You’ll rarely see humans in driving semis in 5 years and it’s straight up foolish to choose that as a career path right now.

Quote

If you’re a truck driver worried about your job being lost to an autonomous truck, we hope this update puts your mind at ease and makes you at least a little bit excited about the future of the trucking industry. Truck drivers will continue to be extremely important in the industry, even if there are self-driving trucks on the freeways.

[DalTxHornFan 3109]

2 minutes ago, YGIFS said:

 The only person that will miss truck drivers is Thomas J Henry. 

Not so fast, my friend.  Never, ever underestimate the creativity of contingency fee plaintiff lawyers! 

[Jkwellborn 6715]

https://www.atbs.com/post/self-driving-trucks-are-truck-drivers-out-of-a-jo
 
YGIFS knew what I meant. You’ll rarely see humans in driving semis in 5 years and it’s straight up foolish to choose that as a career path right now.

You’ll see humans driving semis in 20yrs.

[CHIEF 5094]

3 hours ago, Jkwellborn said:

You’ll see humans driving semis in 20yrs.

Yeah, I don't know what automated process can determine that a load has shifted and needs to be restrapped and can perform that function. Vans and reefers, no problem. But items on flatbeds and lowboys shift all the time. If anything, the self driving trucks will still be used in conjunction with drivers, as drivers do more than just drive. We will probably see driver manifests go away, along with restricting the hours a driver can be on the road. A six hour nap while the truck does the driving.

CHIEF

[Schulz2.0 28995]

11 hours ago, tx 3 putt said:

 

UTI job fair - every auto dealership, exxon, bp, oxy, shell, every OF service company you can name, every chem plant you can name, every company that does business with chem plants. when i was on the hiring team at their job fair, those kids knew they could make $100k+ within 12 of hiring on. we'd have a line of 50 kids waiting to talk with us. 

To be fair, the $100k+ involves you working 60-70 hours a week. Some people want to have a life outside of work and see their family.

[tx 3 putt 77245]

33 minutes ago, Schulz2.0 said:

To be fair, the $100k+ involves you working 60-70 hours a week. Some people want to have a life outside of work and see their family.

with my old company, it was working 84 hr weeks for 2 to 3 weeks. Week off or so, then back at it. Work 94, get paid for 112. Lot of hours but good if you have $20k in student loans 

[Homercles 10206]

[Jkwellborn 6715]

1-800-551-8900. Diesel Driving Academy. The road starts here.

[Nice Guy Eddie 13515]

17 minutes ago, Homercles said:

In hindsight, Goose should have called.

[YGIFS 19452]

12 minutes ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

In hindsight, Goose should have called.

Why call the truck driving school?  His naval aviator career was going through the roof! 

[Schulz2.0 28995]

2 hours ago, tx 3 putt said:

with my old company, it was working 84 hr weeks for 2 to 3 weeks. Week off or so, then back at it. Work 94, get paid for 112. Lot of hours but good if you have $20k in student loans 

It works for some people. I work at a refinery. A lot of the older guys, and management, don't seem to comprehend that most of the employees 40 and under aren't particularly interested in living at work regardless of the money.

[HornOnTheBayou 8942]

44 minutes ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

In hindsight, Goose should have called.

Edited April 25, 2023 by HornOnTheBayou