Religion, weaponized religion, and the separation of church and state

[Patricio Swayze 17058]

It feels like more and more we are headed towards theocracy in this country. At the very least, the right are determined to commingle church and state much more. This goes for all religions, but since we are in the US, that mostly means Christianity. They weaponize it for whatever cause and policy they are trying to push on the country.

 

As a father, I am concerned about indoctrination of my kids. I have said it before, but I feel like most religions, including Christianity, are a net negative for humanity. Not only would I be worried my kids could be sexually assaulted, I have daughters and am very worried about how all this bullshit might affect their bodily autonomy and health. Now with all the destruction and take over of the education system, it sometimes feels like soon I will have to explain to my girls that the world isn’t 6,000 years old. I know I am not the only one who feels this way.

 

How is this stopped?

Why do y’all on the right insist on pushing your beliefs onto others in the form of policy and law?

['stache 21825]

36 minutes ago, Patricio Swayze said:

 

It feels like more and more we are headed towards theocracy in this country. At the very least, the right are determined to commingle church and state much more. This goes for all religions, but since we are in the US, that mostly means Christianity. They weaponize it for whatever cause and policy they are trying to push on the country.

 

As a father, I am concerned about indoctrination of my kids. I have said it before, but I feel like most religions, including Christianity, are a net negative for humanity. Not only would I be worried my kids could be sexually assaulted, I have daughters and am very worried about how all this bullshit might affect their bodily autonomy and health. Now with all the destruction and take over of the education system, it sometimes feels like soon I will have to explain to my girls that the world isn’t 6,000 years old. I know I am not the only one who feels this way.

 

How is this stopped?

Why do y’all on the right insist on pushing your beliefs onto others in the form of policy and law?

No, it's only Christianity. In Oklahoma, the governor wants vouchers to take money from public schools to give to private schools. If you honestly believe for a second he would allow it to one of the Islamic private schools, you're crazy. In fact, the new attorney general just reversed a determination from the prior attorney general that said it was okay by pointing out that the prior decision would allow public funds to all religions and that the people would not be okay if it went to a religious school which which they disagree. Thankfully, the rural representatives in the legislature have refused to pass the plan, but if it did, I can assure you it would exclude  the Muslim schools, and there is a distinct possibility that SCOTUS would allow the limitation. 

Edited March 21, 2023 by 'stache

[Patricio Swayze 17058]

I imagine Texas politicians would do something similar. However, Houston and Dallas are extremely diverse cities, so that would be an interesting battle.

My oldest daughter recently has asked me about Jesus and religion recently. I tell her many people have many different beliefs, but myself, I don’t believe in those abrahamic ideas (I didn’t word it like that haha, she is 8). I want her to have an open mind. It’s way to early to even bring up the political component of this bullshit to her. But I will eventually.

I do like to see people’s reaction ms when they find out that my kids aren’t baptized. I tell them that I was baptized against my will (and my body mutilated as well).

['stache 21825]

My kids haven't asked much about it, but I'll probably say something similar. Before COVID I started attending a Unitarian church from time to time because I kind of miss some of the ceremonial stuff from my Catholic upbringing. Might start going again soon, I like their approach, including that they have a "Humanitarian Hour" on Sunday mornings that is pretty transparent as an appeal to atheist's and agnostics. I enjoy reading about religion from a historical perspective, but it always astonishes me that to this day that more than half the world's population believes the stories as literal or enough so to dedicate their lives to them, makes no sense whatsoever.

Edited March 21, 2023 by 'stache

[Patricio Swayze 17058]

My kids haven't asked much about it, but I'll probably say something similar. Before COVID I started attending a Unitarian church from time to time because I kind of miss some of the ceremonial stuff from my Catholic upbringing. Might start going again soon, I like their approach, including that they have a "Humanitarian Hour" on Sunday mornings that is pretty transparent as an appeal to atheist's and agnostics. I enjoy reading about religion from a historical perspective, but it always astonishes me that to this day that more than half the world's population believes the stories as literal or enough so to dedicate their lives to them, makes no sense whatsoever.

I am always shocked when I hear educated people say that the Bible is the literal word of god. Many of these people have read it, which further confuses me because there is some straight up crazy, weird, sickening stuff in that book.

This country doesn’t need Christianity as a moral compass when making laws.

[HamsterHookah 112]

Are you seriously asking for a discussion and conversation when you ask this? Because in my experience, even with measured tone and reasoned responses, responding to questions like the below tends to just be bait to neg-bombed by the usual suspects for cathartic release.

Quote

Why do y’all on the right insist on pushing your beliefs onto others in the form of policy and law?

 

 

Edited March 21, 2023 by HamsterHookah

[Patricio Swayze 17058]

Are you seriously asking for a discussion and conversation when you ask this? Because in my experience, even with measured tone and reasoned responses, responding to questions like the below tends to just be bait to neg-bombed by the usual suspects for cathartic release.

Why do y’all on the right insist on pushing your beliefs onto others in the form of policy and law?
 

 

I don’t neg people who have good faith discussions. I even engaged fatty many times about gun laws, despite many saying it was foolish. But I didn’t neg him. Trillin, bigotry…yeah, I’ll neg. So feel free to jump in, or don’t. It’s still somewhat of a free country.

[Nivek 16949]

Religion is already politicized and has been for a long time.  The tax exemption is bullshit.

[wildcat09 29360]

3 hours ago, Patricio Swayze said:

Why do y’all on the right insist on pushing your beliefs onto others in the form of policy and law?

They do it because they believe that what they view to be "normal" (a racially hierarchical, patriarchal society) is ordained by God and that secularism and diversity are affronts to God's will.  Most of them won't exactly explain it that way to themselves, but that's why. The other reasons they tend to dress that up with are just rationalizations to cover up what they're too ashamed to admit are their true beliefs.

[F250 28805]

2 hours ago, Patricio Swayze said:

I do like to see people’s reaction ms when they find out that my kids aren’t baptized. I tell them that I was baptized against my will (and my body mutilated as well).

 

[Patricio Swayze 17058]

 

Basically. I can see the cogs moving in their head and know they are imaging me throwing my kids into a fire pit from the top of a Mayan pyramid.

[F250 28805]

1 minute ago, Patricio Swayze said:

Basically. I can see the cogs moving in their head and know they are imaging me throwing my kids into a fire pit from the top of a Mayan pyramid.

Well, the body mutilation with a forced baptism sounds pretty crazy.

[Patricio Swayze 17058]

Well, the body mutilation with a forced baptism sounds pretty crazy.

It does. Imagine explains to some alien civilization that some cut part of your dick off because of some bizarre covenant between a dude thousands of years ago and a perverted god.

[Poe It Up 126]

56 minutes ago, HamsterHookah said:

Are you seriously asking for a discussion and conversation when you ask this? Because in my experience, even with measured tone and reasoned responses, responding to questions like the below tends to just be bait to neg-bombed by the usual suspects for cathartic release.

 

He’s proselytizing and doesn’t even know it. 

[Patricio Swayze 17058]

He’s proselytizing and doesn’t even know it. 

As always, thank you for your enlightening contribution.

[Poe It Up 126]

20 minutes ago, Patricio Swayze said:

It does. Imagine explains to some alien civilization that some cut part of your dick off because of some bizarre covenant between a dude thousands of years ago and a perverted god.

I don’t know man, showing them an uncircumcised penis may scare the aliens off. 

[wildcat09 29360]

21 minutes ago, Patricio Swayze said:

It does. Imagine explains to some alien civilization that some cut part of your dick off because of some bizarre covenant between a dude thousands of years ago and a perverted god.

Well, if you were raised Christian in America, the reason why you were circumcised is actually much weirder than that.

Edited March 21, 2023 by wildcat09

[David Dennison 18941]

18 minutes ago, Poe It Up said:

He’s proselytizing and doesn’t even know it. 

Orwellian.

“War is peace. Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength.” 

 

Edited March 21, 2023 by David Dennison

[Poe It Up 126]

1 minute ago, Patricio Swayze said:

As always, thank you for your enlightening contribution.

You’ve supplanted religion with politics. I see it a lot in those that leave the church.  

[David Dennison 18941]

1 minute ago, Poe It Up said:

You’ve supplanted religion with politics. I see it a lot in those that leave the church.  

What do expect after the right supplants politics with religion?

[Patricio Swayze 17058]

You’ve supplanted religion with politics. I see it a lot in those that leave the church.  

Incorrect, as usual. Science over religion.

[Zepol87 9189]

Religion is fucked and private school is super fucked. Private school shit is nothing more than keep those poors away

[Poe It Up 126]

24 minutes ago, Patricio Swayze said:

Incorrect, as usual. Science over religion.

Can you point me to the science that shows there’s no God?

[StassneyHorn 6624]

Oh shut the fuck up

[Patricio Swayze 17058]

Can you point me to the science that shows there’s no God?

Exactly. Can you point to the science that proves there is a god?

There is absolutely nothing wrong with saying “I don’t know”. But people have a big problem doing that.

Daughter: daddy, is there a god?
Me: I don’t know. There are many, many different ideas about that, but I don’t know.

Not hard at all.

But what I ABSOLUTELY know is that god and religion should not be part of government or the basis of law.

[smuggs 9353]

40 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

What do expect after the right supplants politics with religion?

The third reconciliation of the last of the McKetrick supplicants.

[Poe It Up 126]

9 minutes ago, Patricio Swayze said:

Exactly. Can you point to the science that proves there is a god?

There is absolutely nothing wrong with saying “I don’t know”. But people have a big problem doing that.

Daughter: daddy, is there a god?
Me: I don’t know. There are many, many different ideas about that, but I don’t know.

Not hard at all.

But what I ABSOLUTELY know is that god and religion should not be part of government or the basis of law.

I have faith that there is a god, which science can’t disprove. So saying science over religion doesn’t make any sense to me. 

[tx 3 putt 77258]

 

this is what they want 

[Patricio Swayze 17058]

I have faith that there is a god, which science can’t disprove. So saying science over religion doesn’t make any sense to me. 

So laws should be based on faith in your God rather than science that is tangible and empirical?

Sounds about right.

[WhatTheBuck 28794]

58 minutes ago, Patricio Swayze said:

Incorrect, as usual. Science over religion.

He doesn’t know what science is. 

[Satchel 6939]

As a person of faith, I feel there’s not a place for me in this discussion because I’m not a right winger.

[Patricio Swayze 17058]

As a person of faith, I feel there’s not a place for me in this discussion because I’m not a right winger.

There absolutely is. You can show your brothers in Christ that your religion shouldn’t be the basis of law for everyone. You can be part of the solution.

[Born to Run 6569]

Religion is fucked and private school is super fucked. Private school shit is nothing more than keep those poors away

I actually know several families that left LTISD for private school so thier kids could actually make a sports team.

[HamsterHookah 112]

1 hour ago, Zepol87 said:

Religion is fucked and private school is super fucked. Private school shit is nothing more than keep those poors away

This is a broad generalization and certainly not the top reason we private school, but curious even if it were, what is inherently wrong with this in your view?

[WhatTheBuck 28794]

 

 

[cactusflinthead 27601]

18 minutes ago, Satchel said:

As a person of faith, I feel there’s not a place for me in this discussion because I’m not a right winger.

You're not the only one. I don't get in the middle of these conversations very often. Because it usually devolves into a lot of hollering. 

But, I can see Swayze's point about speaking up. 

[Zepol87 9189]

6 minutes ago, HamsterHookah said:

This is a broad generalization and certainly not the top reason we private school, but curious even if it were, what is inherently wrong with this in your view?

I went from public school to private school then back to public school in my years. The parents in East Dallas definitely decided private school was the only option because of the "issues" on our side of town. It was loudly stated and even after our school got caught up with a father looking for young boys it was better than being around those people and was stated many times. This isn't some random shit I just heard, parents were talking about this at our confirmation and parties after. Anyone saying private school is anything else is a fucking liar I know many

11 minutes ago, HamsterHookah said:

This is a broad generalization and certainly not the top reason we private school, but curious even if it were, what is inherently wrong with this in your view?

Lol keep the poors away is ok? Thanks for being Christian

[HamsterHookah 112]

7 minutes ago, Zepol87 said:

I went from public school to private school then back to public school in my years. The parents in East Dallas definitely decided private school was the only option because of the "issues" on our side of town. It was loudly stated and even after our school got caught up with a father looking for young boys it was better than being around those people and was stated many times. This isn't some random shit I just heard, parents were talking about this at our confirmation and parties after. Anyone saying private school is anything else is a fucking liar I know many

Lol keep the poors away is ok? Thanks for being Christian

Weird and interesting history/life experience there. Can't say I'd think differently than you do if that were my story too. Thanks for sharing.

[Bama Chick 28596]

I have faith that there is a god, which science can’t disprove. So saying science over religion doesn’t make any sense to me. 

I have faith your head is full of rancid shit and evil sludge runs through your veins.

I’d be willing to let a scientist remove your blood and cut out your brain to disprove my faith.

[Zepol87 9189]

7 minutes ago, HamsterHookah said:

Weird and interesting history/life experience there. Can't say I'd think differently than you do if that were my story too. Thanks for sharing.

I will say my life experiences are a bit different than most of surly 

Edited March 21, 2023 by Zepol87

[Satchel 6939]

44 minutes ago, Patricio Swayze said:

There absolutely is. You can show your brothers in Christ that your religion shouldn’t be the basis of law for everyone. You can be part of the solution.

You don’t think there are millions of us in various faith communities around the world who don’t do that?

[tx 3 putt 77258]

18 minutes ago, Bama Chick said:

I have faith your head is full of rancid shit and evil sludge runs through your veins.

I’d be willing to let a scientist remove your blood and cut out your brain to disprove my faith.

[Patricio Swayze 17058]

You don’t think there are millions of us in various faith communities around the world who don’t do that?

I don’t know honestly. I would hope so. But maybe it’s not enough or as much as you think because we are heading towards theocracy here in the US, some states more than others.

I am sure you agree. And I am certainly not saying it’s your fault, but that is your community of faith.

[Brian Fantana 6690]

15 minutes ago, Satchel said:

You don’t think there are millions of us in various faith communities around the world who don’t do that?

The millions of you don't make a shit compared to the religious extremists we currently have in office/on the supreme court. Sorry, it's just the truth. Your voice isn't loud enough to counter theirs.

[formermav43 4606]

20 minutes ago, Patricio Swayze said:

There absolutely is. You can show your brothers in Christ that your religion shouldn’t be the basis of law for everyone. You can be part of the solution.

If only it were that easy.

I am one of those oddballs discussed in the first few posts who is both educated and religious (though I’m not a paedobaptist, so no funny looks from me about not baptizing your kids). I would be considered to be theologically conservative. I obviously have a completely different worldview from you (and most posters on this board). 

But I’m also not part of the “religious right” because I try my best to take what Jesus said seriously. So there’s a lot of elements that go along with Republican politics or even just a “right wing” worldview that I cannot abide: pursuing wealth above all else, not taking care of the earth, the idolatry of American nationalism, the use of violence…I could go on and on.

More fundamentally, I don’t believe Christians should pursue worldly power, because we are called to serve rather than to use force. It’s antithetical to our mission and the methods we should use. I agree with you that Christianity should not be the basis for law; I believe in the separation of church and state. Not only because I don’t believe in coercing you or others, but because I’m concerned with protecting the church, too, whether from questions about whose version of Christianity is enshrined in law (“I’d give the Devil benefit of law for my own safety’s sake” as Moore says in A Man for All Seasons), or from becoming corrupted in pursuing power and destroying its witness…which, you know, look around. That ship has sailed.

I have been in a position to talk about this with others, to speak on it publicly, to write about it for well over a decade now, to audiences made up largely (though not exclusively) of Republican types, because I’ve been concerned about this from the Christian perspective long before Trump was ever a thing. At best, it’s treated as a sort of eccentricity of mine; at worst, it gets people angry (mostly because they agree with the premises, and then refuse to accept the conclusion).
 

Basically no one is receptive, because their worldview isn’t really Christian, either. They worship the flag, they think America is God’s Chosen People-look even at the language of soldiers making a sacrifice, the “altar of freedom,” the capitol as the “temple of democracy” etc. The earliest Christians died rather than burn incense to the Emperor;  these people would like to have the State punish those who don’t stand for the national anthem. 

You can’t show people that “your religion shouldn’t be the basis of law for everyone” when that IS their religion. 

 

[gyroprotagonist 2594]

feel about the same as OP.  The (mostly fake) zealot politicians are pumping theocracy ideas to win votes.  Just saying 'Bible' is the justification to start taking away rights/protections form groups that differ from them.  the party of small government is dead set on legislation to forcibly enact their set of minority beliefs on the majority of Americans.

Raised in the church, baptized of my own free will during the fervor of a summer church camp at like 11 or 12 think.  Cruised along going semi-regularly to church; moreso after the kids were born.  Really, the rise of Trumpkins using religion to further bigotry, handmaid tales shit and now all the blatant calls for a no-shit theocracy have caused me to do a complete 180 on religion and cringe away from wanting to associate with it.  heck, i really liked the First United Methodist church we fell into.  very progressive, embracing every community (lol at all the FUMC churches splitting off 'cause they hate gays).  

We sorta mock all the stupid religious shit we see and our kids pick up on it.  I am sure their grandparents are praying for their souls and have even had the in-laws trying to sway the kids into asking that we take them to church every Sunday.  We tend to go on Easter/Christmas and a few other times a year.   don't quite tithe, but still give a decent chunk each year to the church. 

It just boils down to 'How hard is it to just worship what you want to without using your religion to restrict my freedoms?'  There never was a WAR OF CHRISTMAS but it looks like there needs to be a war on Christians to keep a theocracy from happening. 

[WhatTheBuck 28794]

1 hour ago, Patricio Swayze said:

There absolutely is. You can show your brothers in Christ that your religion shouldn’t be the basis of law for everyone. You can be part of the solution.

 

27 minutes ago, Satchel said:

You don’t think there are millions of us in various faith communities around the world who don’t do that?

Quite the contrary. I do think there are millions of you in various faith communities around the world who don’t do that, particularly here in the American Christian community. 

[HamsterHookah 112]

Surprise surprise that religions and religious institutions are wicked and full of sin (because they are made up of people who are preternaturally so). 

So even in religion and religious institutions you see a spectrum: far right theocrats and extremists to the far left loons of women preachers with rainbow pride robes, and everything in between.

Get in where you fit in and worry about the plank in your own eye first, is my motto. I care less about what drag shows are going on in society than I do with what I'm doing to lead my kids and family in the home. If I do my job correctly, God willing, the rest will work itself out. Though of course that's not necessarily a guarantee, God's will be done, and proverbs are principles and not promises...

But that leads to the best life lesson for the short sojourn we have on this planet until we go to our real home: we are in control of nothing really, so just do what you think is best, in the present, one day at a time.

And love those who you disagree with. Maybe even more than you do those who make it easy to love.

I love you all, especially you usual suspects.

Edited March 21, 2023 by HamsterHookah

[Satchel 6939]

27 minutes ago, Patricio Swayze said:

I don’t know honestly. I would hope so. But maybe it’s not enough or as much as you think because we are heading towards theocracy here in the US, some states more than others.

I am sure you agree. And I am certainly not saying it’s your fault, but that is your community of faith.

It’s the noisy, theologically ignorant, arrogant, spiritually immature who insist on using Christianity as a cudgel. 
When Christians are instructed in Scripture to be fishers of people, great care is taken to make sure we understand our obligation is to fish. It is not to change or clean the fish we catch because it is understood that our human condition would make us  want to remake the fish in our image. These noisy, in your face people bragging about being Christian, don’t understand this very simple teaching.

[Patricio Swayze 17058]

If only it were that easy.
I am one of those oddballs discussed in the first few posts who is both educated and religious (though I’m not a paedobaptist, so no funny looks from me about not baptizing your kids). I would be considered to be theologically conservative. I obviously have a completely different worldview from you (and most posters on this board). 
But I’m also not part of the “religious right” because I try my best to take what Jesus said seriously. So there’s a lot of elements that go along with Republican politics or even just a “right wing” worldview that I cannot abide: pursuing wealth above all else, not taking care of the earth, the idolatry of American nationalism, the use of violence…I could go on and on.
More fundamentally, I don’t believe Christians should pursue worldly power, because we are called to serve rather than to use force. It’s antithetical to our mission and the methods we should use. I agree with you that Christianity should not be the basis for law; I believe in the separation of church and state. Not only because I don’t believe in coercing you or others, but because I’m concerned with protecting the church, too, whether from questions about whose version of Christianity is enshrined in law (“I’d give the Devil benefit of law for my own safety’s sake” as Moore says in A Man for All Seasons), or from becoming corrupted in pursuing power and destroying its witness…which, you know, look around. That ship has sailed.
I have been in a position to talk about this with others, to speak on it publicly, to write about it for well over a decade now, to audiences made up largely (though not exclusively) of Republican types, because I’ve been concerned about this from the Christian perspective long before Trump was ever a thing. At best, it’s treated as a sort of eccentricity of mine; at worst, it gets people angry (mostly because they agree with the premises, and then refuse to accept the conclusion).
 
Basically no one is receptive, because their worldview isn’t really Christian, either. They worship the flag, they think America is God’s Chosen People-look even at the language of soldiers making a sacrifice, the “altar of freedom,” the capitol as the “temple of democracy” etc. The earliest Christians died rather than burn incense to the Emperor;  these people would like to have the State punish those who don’t stand for the national anthem. 
You can’t show people that “your religion shouldn’t be the basis of law for everyone” when that IS their religion. 
 

feel about the same as OP.  The (mostly fake) zealot politicians are pumping theocracy ideas to win votes.  Just saying 'Bible' is the justification to start taking away rights/protections form groups that differ from them.  the party of small government is dead set on legislation to forcibly enact their set of minority beliefs on the majority of Americans.
Raised in the church, baptized of my own free will during the fervor of a summer church camp at like 11 or 12 think.  Cruised along going semi-regularly to church; moreso after the kids were born.  Really, the rise of Trumpkins using religion to further bigotry, handmaid tales shit and now all the blatant calls for a no-shit theocracy have caused me to do a complete 180 on religion and cringe away from wanting to associate with it.  heck, i really liked the First United Methodist church we fell into.  very progressive, embracing every community (lol at all the FUMC churches splitting off 'cause they hate gays).  
We sorta mock all the stupid religious shit we see and our kids pick up on it.  I am sure their grandparents are praying for their souls and have even had the in-laws trying to sway the kids into asking that we take them to church every Sunday.  We tend to go on Easter/Christmas and a few other times a year.   don't quite tithe, but still give a decent chunk each year to the church. 
It just boils down to 'How hard is it to just worship what you want to without using your religion to restrict my freedoms?'  There never was a WAR OF CHRISTMAS but it looks like there needs to be a war on Christians to keep a theocracy from happening. 

Thanks both of y’all. These are great contributions to a discussion.