Religion, weaponized religion, and the separation of church and state

[Patricio Swayze 17058]

Surprise surprise that religions and religious institutions are wicked and full of sin (because they are made up of people who are preternaturally so). 
So even in religion and religious institutions you see a spectrum: far right theocrats and extremists to the far left loons of women preachers with rainbow pride robes, and everything in between.
Get in where you fit in and worry about the plank in your own eye first, is my motto. I care less about what drag shows are going on in society than I do with what I'm doing to lead my kids and family in the home. If I do my job correctly, God willing, the rest will work itself out. Though of course that's not necessarily a guarantee, God's will be done, and proverbs are principles and not promises...
But that leads to the best life lesson for the short sojourn we have on this planet until we go to our real home: we are in control of nothing really, so just do what you think is best, in the present, one day at a time.
And love those who you disagree with. Maybe even more than you do those who make it easy to love.
I love you all, especially you usual suspects.

Do you vote for republicans like Abbott? I ask because while you say you are essentially live and let live, and let god sort it out, I see these fascists pushing theocracy on everyone. If you truly love this way and believe this way, I can’t see how you could vote for most republicans in this day and age. Please don’t give me this tax and small government nonsense. That ship has sailed a long time ago.

[BrickHorn 18259]

Religion results from a package of Darwinian optimal traits. It’s one of those blinds spots in human reason that prevails because it benefits our genes. Being correct is not always optimal. Sometimes it’s better to be skittish, tribal, and violent. But that doesn’t make it any less stupid.

Edited March 21, 2023 by BrickHorn

[Satchel 6939]

28 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

The millions of you don't make a shit compared to the religious extremists we currently have in office/on the supreme court. Sorry, it's just the truth. Your voice isn't loud enough to counter theirs.

Your point is a valid one. It many ways, it is the very nature of the Christian witness to sermonize with our hands and feet more than our mouths. The chest beating Christians have a built in advantage because the confrontational style of their messaging is a draw for media. Case in point: several years ago, a gay couple in their 80’s who had been together for decades and had served faithfully in their local church for a similar amount of time, decided to get married. Their pastor, who had known them for years, was very supportive of their plan to marry. When reporting on this story, local media in DFW took a pass on interviewing their pastor and instead, sought out gay hating Robert Jeffress to tell the viewing audience about these men and their ungodly plans. 
When progressive Churches  certify teachers to teach the AP Black History Class outlawed by Desantis in their churches, not much is made of that effort. Short shrift is also given to The Poor People’s Campaign and other like minded initiatives all over the country that seek to train, empower and elevate the least of these. It’s in this milieu, that the term “woke” was born. Social holiness is a real thing most of you never hear about.

[Patricio Swayze 17058]

Your point is a valid one. It many ways, it is the very nature of the Christian witness to sermonize with our hands and feet more than our mouths. The chest beating Christians have a built in advantage because the confrontational style of their messaging is a draw for media. Case in point: several years ago, a gay couple in their 80’s who had been together for decades and had served faithfully in their local church for a similar amount of time, decided to get married. Their pastor, who had known them for years, was very supportive of their plan to marry. When reporting on this story, local media in DFW took a pass on interviewing their pastor and instead, sought out gay hating Robert Jeffress to tell the viewing audience about these men and their ungodly plans. 
When progressive Churches  certify teachers to teach the AP Black History Class outlawed by Desantis in their churches, not much is made of that effort. Short shrift is also given to The Poor People’s Campaign and other like minded initiatives all over the country that seek to train, empower and elevate the least of these. It’s in this milieu, that the term “woke” was born. Social holiness is a real thing most of you never hear about.

You are not wrong. The media has also been weaponized. Maybe it always was.

[atomheartbevo 89770]

51 minutes ago, gyroprotagonist said:

It just boils down to 'How hard is it to just worship what you want to without using your religion to restrict my freedoms?'  There never was a WAR OF CHRISTMAS but it looks like there needs to be a war on Christians to keep a theocracy from happening. 

While it seems like the hardcore evangelical "restrict my freedoms" types are large, they happen to just be very noisy, and they vote, or give that appearance of voting, enough to make the Republican politicians take note.

This is very anecdotal, but it feels like such groups like the Baptists are either in decline, or have a serious demographic issue.  My wife bailed on a large Baptist church here in Austin (long story why she was a member, but basically close by and music-related stuff) and switched to a Presbyterian church last year, and it's night-and-day.  The previous Baptist church seems like it was shedding younger families left and right (and their management and lack of catering to young families really sucked), even before covid, and you go there now, it's mostly white hairs in attendance.  The pastor was not quite the hate-mongering pastor that a lot of Baptist churches have, but the members, particularly the older members could give off the hate vibe, and plenty of Trump supporters who let you know it.

When switching to the new church, my wife brought several families over, and they are all much happier - none of the MAGA types at the new church, and lots of working with young families/children.  Previous church, decisions about activities for kids were being made by people in their 60s and 70s and it showed.  They focused on their older membership (probably for financial reasons), but neglecting the younger families/members is not a good long-term strategy.

I look at people like Beth Moore leaving, and as much as she was trashed by certain Baptist groups, a whole lot of people looked at why she left and have followed suit as well.

Anyways, I'm only familiar with a handful of Baptist churches (ones my relatives/friends attend, our previous), and I definitely notice an uptick in the percentage of olds vs younger folks.

 

 

[Biff Tannen 45697]

3 hours ago, HamsterHookah said:

This is a broad generalization and certainly not the top reason we private school, but curious even if it were, what is inherently wrong with this in your view?

[YChang 3455]

So even if you assume positive about wanting to reverse population decline. But the intent of this bill's author, a former pastor is kind of... out there.  

Have more babies! Buttttt... only if you're straight and white please.

Actual bill 

From the article, the former minister added a biblical admonition: With this bill,” he said, “Texas will start saying to couples: ‘Get married, stay married, and be fruitful and multiply."

[WhatTheBuck 28794]

18 minutes ago, Satchel said:

It many ways, it is the very nature of the Christian witness to sermonize with our hands and feet more than our mouths.

The Bible says otherwise.

Mark 16:15-16

15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

A great many Christians believe that their scripture instructs them to proselytize and to spread their faith by word of mouth. A great many of them follow that instruction. They believe it’s their duty.

Of course, the Bible also says:

Matthew 6:5-8

5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. 6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

But that’s concerning prayer, not preaching the gospel. And from what I’ve seen, the Christians who follow that instruction are in the minority. 

[Mole 4333]

The issue of the proper response of the non-fascist part of America Christianity has been brought up. Since this so much of this board claimed to be reformed Bush republicans, I presume that a good number of this board was saying the same stuff about moderate Muslims during the height of the War on Terror.

It can be a fair question to ask, but as we saw during the anti-Muslim fervor, it’s a short walk from fair questions to naked bigotry.

Regarding the core issue raised, I deeply resent what this movement has done to both my country and the church. I’m pretty conservative theologically, and in my view, this false gospel is damaging the mission of the church even more than the country. Mixing religion and government damages both.

I’m not sure how it can be fixed. There’s a social phenomenon that can happens in certain churches. I call it faith chicken, where the more extreme view, the view in need of more faith to believe, becomes the default view by virtue of the social need to appear faithful. I haven’t witnessed this in every church, or even most churches, but I think this plays a role in what’s happening in certain groups. It’s self-reinforcing madness.

Regarding the role of religion in our society, we’re largely biblically illiterate these days — believer and non-believer alike. Even those that can drop a timely verse are often filtering it through a very narrow theological background.

That’s a shame not only for the church, but also everyone’s ability to engage with our history and culture. The non-believer is missing out on the richness of so much of the important works of our culture; the believer misses out on the same richness of the world but has also replaced their faith with a caricature.

Everyone would be well-served with at least one good, deep pass through the Bible — not to find something to dunk on your political enemies, engage in the culture war, or even come to faith, but to just understand what’s in it. It’s an amazing peek into the thinking of our ancient past as well as the framework for so much that came after it.

[nbmishoid 963]

Everyone?   Shall all Christians read the Koran, study the Buddha, etc.   There are thousands of documented religions.  Shall all of us study relativity, evolution, and Black history.   I think these last three would be better for all to read, if we are seriously ranking reading opportunities.

[Neonmoon 38130]

Religion is the weaponization of fear 

[Mole 4333]

3 minutes ago, nbmishoid said:

Everyone?   Shall all Christians read the Koran, study the Buddha, etc.   There are thousands of documented religions.  Shall all of us study relativity, evolution, and Black history.   I think these last three would be better for all to read, if we are seriously ranking reading opportunities.

Everyone. I’m not saying the “American is a Christian nation” nonsense, but biblical illiteracy is cultural and historical illiteracy. We’re in a weird time where ignorance is somehow proclaimed honorable and in some cases a perverted shibboleth for the educated.

[BevoAbyss 2076]

5 hours ago, Poe It Up said:

Can you point me to the science that shows there’s no God?

With all due respect, that is so sophomoric. Christians and theists (of all stripes) toss that out like it is some kind of irrefutable profound challenge, especially the ones who populate Starbucks in Suburban Dallas with their trusty Bibles. It's one big evidence-free, logic-free fallacy. 

1. If you claim God exists, the onus is on you to provide evidence. Theists have none. 

2. To claim a Creator created the universe is an extraordinary claim requiring extraordinary proof. None has been provided by theists. Not one tiny shred. Never. 

3. There is plenty of science to show that a God is not needed as an explanation for:

— Life on Earth; see evolution, biological, genetics, etc. After all, we share 98% of our genes with chimps/bonobos.

— The universe to exist; see cosmology, astrophysics, etc.

— In fact, our bodies are made of the most common elements of the cosmos: hydrogen, oxygen, nitrogen, carbon, phosphorous, and traces of others

4. To ask one to "show there's no God" is asking one to disprove a negative. That's hard, but not necessarily impossible.

Poe: I can point you to "the logic that show's there's no God." It would take a longer post, but I doubt any theists would bother to read it or think it through.

Bottom line: Theists never provided evidence of God. Science shows God not needed. Logic shows God non-existence (that'a future post).

 

[BevoAbyss 2076]

The Christians and theists who claim that America is a nation founded to be ruled by Christianity/religion always conveniently ignore the very first right in the First Amendment. The VERY FIRST RIGHT atop the Bill of Rights!

1. Congress shall make NO LAW establishing a religion.

Edited March 22, 2023 by BevoAbyss

[formermav43 4606]

Oh good. Finally we can resolve that once and for all.

[Satchel 6939]

2 hours ago, WhatTheBuck said:

The Bible says otherwise.

Mark 16:15-16

15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

A great many Christians believe that their scripture instructs them to proselytize and to spread their faith by word of mouth. A great many of them follow that instruction. They believe it’s their duty.

Of course, the Bible also says:

Matthew 6:5-8

5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. 6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

But that’s concerning prayer, not preaching the gospel. And from what I’ve seen, the Christians who follow that instruction are in the minority. 

That’s all good until one comes to understand the Bible is what it says and what it means.

[Patricio Swayze 17058]

Satchel, are you one that believes that the Bible is the word of God and it is all to be taken literally? Just curious. I know gsoda feels that way.

[Nivek 16951]

6 hours ago, Zepol87 said:

Religion is fucked and private school is super fucked. Private school shit is nothing more than keep those poors away

Not really.  Some private schools have a different focus on education than the public school system and don't subject their kids to a constant stream of testing, they also can be more adaptive to the individual needs of students and provide more support for kids with special needs or learning disabilities.   If you have a kid with learning disabilities, it is a process to get the testing (which they drag their feet to set up), then a pain in the ass to get the results (they drag their feet for this as well) and then to start getting the ARD meetings and IEP plans in place.   Then trying to hold them accountable to help them support your kid is another challenge. 

But there is something to keeping the poors away as well.  Some kids are a challenge and it seems the school system's options are hamstrung.   

 

[Nivek 16951]

1 hour ago, BevoAbyss said:

The Christians and theists who claim that America is a nation founded to be ruled by Christianity/religion always conveniently ignore the very first right in the First Amendment. The VERY FIRST RIGHT atop the Bill of Rights!

1. Congress shall make NO LAW establishing a religion.

Only the second Amendment matters and really only the part after the second comma.    

[troph 24900]

2 hours ago, Mole said:

The issue of the proper response of the non-fascist part of America Christianity has been brought up. Since this so much of this board claimed to be reformed Bush republicans, I presume that a good number of this board was saying the same stuff about moderate Muslims during the height of the War on Terror.

It can be a fair question to ask, but as we saw during the anti-Muslim fervor, it’s a short walk from fair questions to naked bigotry.

Regarding the core issue raised, I deeply resent what this movement has done to both my country and the church. I’m pretty conservative theologically, and in my view, this false gospel is damaging the mission of the church even more than the country. Mixing religion and government damages both.

I’m not sure how it can be fixed. There’s a social phenomenon that can happens in certain churches. I call it faith chicken, where the more extreme view, the view in need of more faith to believe, becomes the default view by virtue of the social need to appear faithful. I haven’t witnessed this in every church, or even most churches, but I think this plays a role in what’s happening in certain groups. It’s self-reinforcing madness.

Regarding the role of religion in our society, we’re largely biblically illiterate these days — believer and non-believer alike. Even those that can drop a timely verse are often filtering it through a very narrow theological background.

That’s a shame not only for the church, but also everyone’s ability to engage with our history and culture. The non-believer is missing out on the richness of so much of the important works of our culture; the believer misses out on the same richness of the world but has also replaced their faith with a caricature.

Everyone would be well-served with at least one good, deep pass through the Bible — not to find something to dunk on your political enemies, engage in the culture war, or even come to faith, but to just understand what’s in it. It’s an amazing peek into the thinking of our ancient past as well as the framework for so much that came after it.

I have one major regret with my kids - not giving them that biblical tutelage that I received as a kid and teen and found on my own as an early adult.  But alas the church is a very dangerous place these days, so it’s a regret I will simply live with. 
 

I do have a new client that is an older guy and a practicing Christian, church going, conservative, but not a social conservative by political definition. Pretty sure he’s a democrat or a mild Republican in name only. Certainly not Trump and fine with me and my wife. He is a PURE JOY to work with. It’s remarkably refreshing. Plenty of non-Christians have deep and abiding good character but the familiarity I have with that from a Christian perspective from a long time ago makes this experience remarkable. 

[troph 24900]

1 hour ago, BevoAbyss said:

The Christians and theists who claim that America is a nation founded to be ruled by Christianity/religion always conveniently ignore the very first right in the First Amendment. The VERY FIRST RIGHT atop the Bill of Rights!

1. Congress shall make NO LAW establishing a religion.

Founders weren’t evangelicals - those that were Christian were deists mostly. God is the clock maker he made the clock, wound it up and has let it run on its own without interference or concern. There was hostility toward state religion as well for sure.

[Satchel 6939]

1 hour ago, BevoAbyss said:

With all due respect, that is so sophomoric. Christians and theists (of all stripes) toss that out like it is some kind of irrefutable profound challenge, especially the ones who populate Starbucks in Suburban Dallas with their trusty Bibles. It's one big evidence-free, logic-free fallacy. 

1. If you claim God exists, the onus is on you to provide evidence. Theists have none. 

2. To claim a Creator created the universe is an extraordinary claim requiring extraordinary proof. None has been provided by theists. Not one tiny shred. Never. 

3. There is plenty of science to show that a God is not needed as an explanation for:

— Life on Earth; see evolution, biological, genetics, etc. After all, we share 98% of our genes with chimps/bonobos.

— The universe to exist; see cosmology, astrophysics, etc.

— In fact, our bodies are made of the most common elements of the cosmos: hydrogen, oxygen, nitrogen, carbon, phosphorous, and traces of others

4. To ask one to "show there's no God" is asking one to disprove a negative. That's hard, but not necessarily impossible.

Poe: I can point you to "the logic that show's there's no God." It would take a longer post, but I doubt any theists would bother to read it or think it through.

Bottom line: Theists never provided evidence of God. Science shows God not needed. Logic shows God non-existence (that'a future post).

 

I’ve never understood the need to make others come around to your way of thinking on this issue. I won’t say it’s simple but it’s not as complicated as some make it out to be. Most of us here were probably were raised with some sort of religious training. Some of us bought it.  Some didn’t. Even if you encounter good people leaving religion or entering into it, holding to the reasonableness of the existence of God is pretty common. 
If for example, I knew every poster in this forum at any given time, I could declare with certainty that Bubba Johnson is not one of them, because that much is knowable. What I can’t do with the same degree of accuracy is declare what exists outside of my experience. If a dot in a circle represented all that is knowable by experience, seems to me it would not be unreasonable to suggest that God could exist somewhere in the space outside of the dot. I don’t understand how anyone could simply declare that God does not exist without knowing everything that exist outside of the dot of your experience.

Now, don’t tell me I can’t make things clear as mud.

[cactusflinthead 27601]

This might sound strange but I went to a private school my last two years. Cistercian in Irving is a no doubt about it religious school.

But, the Fathers had no problem with any faith or the atheist if they happened to be one. It was a matter of if you could do well there. Theology was not required unless you were Catholic. But, if you wanted to take it as a pagan that was fine too. Anyone not Catholic was a pagan. We embraced it. No Father ever called us that. One time I did transgress in class I did get told, "On your knees Protestant." I deserved it. I mean when you tell your English teacher who happened to be a Cistercian that you learned a new Latin word and you got to cunn..smack!

Well, I said I deserved it.

My point is that simply because it's a religious school in name that doesn't mean it is going to indoctrinate the students. It was a totally different experience than my public school one. The guys got away with back talk that would have earned detention and the Fathers got away with physical discipline that would have caused several meetings and a heap of paper. Father Gregory guarded the bus stop with a 15' extra stout wooden ruler. It was used as necessary. 

However, if an institution that purports itself to be a school and discriminates against its employees or students in the manner of Bob Jones then it's no better than the Taliban.

[Beantown Express 2.0 6559]

6 hours ago, smuggs said:

The third reconciliation of the last of the McKetrick supplicants.

This post deserved more love and those of you that didn’t give it a pos rep may very well find yourselves roasted in the depths of a giant slor,  I can tell you!

[Biff Tannen 45697]

4 hours ago, Mole said:

Everyone would be well-served with at least one good, deep pass through the Bible — not to find something to dunk on your political enemies, engage in the culture war, or even come to faith, but to just understand what’s in it. It’s an amazing peek into the thinking of our ancient past as well as the framework for so much that came after it.

Oh man, the Bible is TERRIFIC.  It's got monsters, and adventures, and hey man, if you like torture porn, check out the Old Testament.

[Beantown Express 2.0 6559]

Just now, Biff Tannen said:

Oh man, the Bible is TERRIFIC.  It's got monsters, and adventures, and hey man, if you like torture porn, check out the Old Testament.

I think you are forgetting the part of the Bible, I believe it is in Deuteronomy, that specifically states that religion should be a big part of the government of the United States of America.  

Oh, and just so you all know where I stand.  I am 100% for a Theocracy in this country as long as it involves the religion that celebrates Festivus because I have got a lot of grievances to air with you people.

[cactusflinthead 27601]

2 hours ago, nbmishoid said:

Everyone?   Shall all Christians read the Koran, study the Buddha, etc.   There are thousands of documented religions.  Shall all of us study relativity, evolution, and Black history.   I think these last three would be better for all to read, if we are seriously ranking reading opportunities.

I've got Heschel and de Chardin on the shelf next to each other. I have some Buddhist stuff around here somewhere. There's a couple of shelves of science and history. 

I want to learn. I want to know. I want you to tell me what you believe and why. 

However,  I really don't need it waved in my face. If you just gotta have a public spectacle with the believers carrying the icons down the street as long as you have the proper paperwork then you let your freak flag fly. But, I don't want to be coerced, forced, or in any manner required to participate in your celebration. Might watch though. Might ask someone some questions. 

What's up with the dragon going to visit every store? How often does this happen? The drummers are pretty cool. 

Hey, what's up with the elephant dude in the backyard in the tent and all the chairs?

Whole lotta religion out there and some of them might be in your neighborhood.

Edited March 22, 2023 by cactusflinthead

[WhatTheBuck 28794]

1 hour ago, Satchel said:

That’s all good until one comes to understand the Bible is what it says and what it means.

And are you qualified to tell me what it means? When it means what it says and when it doesn’t?

[TwiceHorn 31516]

29 minutes ago, troph said:

Founders weren’t evangelicals - those that were Christian were deists mostly. God is the clock maker he made the clock, wound it up and has let it run on its own without interference or concern. There was hostility toward state religion as well for sure.

Yup.  As the fundys like to point out, many if not most of the founding fathers were men of faith/spirituality.  But they respected those who weren't and based on their experiences in and recent histories of religion in England and Europe, were mighty wary of and opposed to those who would insinuate religion into the state.  That is, what's going on now.

[TwiceHorn 31516]

14 minutes ago, cactusflinthead said:

This might sound strange but I went to a private school my last two years. Cistercian in Irving is a no doubt about it religious school.

But, the Fathers had no problem with any faith or the atheist if they happened to be one. It was a matter of if you could do well there. Theology was not required unless you were Catholic. But, if you wanted to take it as a pagan that was fine too. Anyone not Catholic was a pagan. We embraced it. No Father ever called us that. One time I did transgress in class I did get told, "On your knees Protestant." I deserved it. I mean when you tell your English teacher who happened to be a Cistercian that you learned a new Latin word and you got to cunn..smack!

Well, I said I deserved it.

My point is that simply because it's a religious school in name that doesn't mean it is going to indoctrinate the students. It was a totally different experience than my public school one. The guys got away with back talk that would have earned detention and the Fathers got away with physical discipline that would have caused several meetings and a heap of paper. Father Gregory guarded the bus stop with a 15' extra stout wooden ruler. It was used as necessary. 

However, if an institution that purports itself to be a school and discriminates against its employees or students in the manner of Bob Jones then it's no better than the Taliban.

Cistercian is a fine school, and I was friends with a number of graduates of Dallas and Houston Jesuits and although Catholic, I think had similar experiences of tolerance.

However, I have recently learned that the somewhat affiliated University of Dallas, a Catholic institution, is something of a hotbed for these scary new theistic conservatives going under the label Catholic integralism and a few others (there may be some differences among them but they're more similar than dissimilar).

Dallas, until the last 25 years or so, maybe longer, seemed to be mostly populated with pretty secular private schools.  So that the private school choice didn't tend to indicate any tendency toward fundamentalism.  Trinity Christian and First Baptist being seeming exceptions.

[Patricio Swayze 17058]

I’ve never understood the need to make others come around to your way of thinking on this issue. I won’t say it’s simple but it’s not as complicated as some make it out to be. Most of us here were probably were raised with some sort of religious training. Some of us bought it.  Some didn’t. Even if you encounter good people leaving religion or entering into it, holding to the reasonableness of the existence of God is pretty common. 
If for example, I knew every poster in this forum at any given time, I could declare with certainty that Bubba Johnson is not one of them, because that much is knowable. What I can’t do with the same degree of accuracy is declare what exists outside of my experience. If a dot in a circle represented all that is knowable by experience, seems to me it would not be unreasonable to suggest that God could exist somewhere in the space outside of the dot. I don’t understand how anyone could simply declare that God does not exist without knowing everything that exist outside of the dot of your experience.
Now, don’t tell me I can’t make things clear as mud.

Nobody has to prove god is real to me. I don’t care what religion, mythology or fairytales people choose to believe in. However, if people and politicians insist on pushing laws with a religious origins and framework, you sure as fuck better bring empirical evidence to the table.

Religion has no place in our government and laws.

[TwiceHorn 31516]

56 minutes ago, cactusflinthead said:

I've got Heschel and de Chardin on the shelf next to each other. I have some Buddhist stuff around here somewhere. There's a couple of shelves of science and history. 

I want to learn. I want to know. I want you to tell me what you believe and why. 

However,  I really don't need it waved in my face. If you just gotta have a public spectacle with the believers carrying the icons down the street as long as you have the proper paperwork then you let your freak flag fly. But, I don't want to be coerced, forced, or in any manner required to participate in your celebration. Might watch though. Might ask someone some questions. 

What's up with the dragon going to visit every store? How often does this happen? The drummers are pretty cool. 

Hey, what's up with the elephant dude in the backyard in the tent and all the chairs?

Whole lotta religion out there and some of them might be in your neighborhood.

Strangely enough, much of the education I received on world religions was at the hands of the Methodist church.  And it wasn't critical or derogatory, it was "here it is, these are some other religions and their faith traditions," with the implication that they were worthy of respect.  And this was like 40 years ago.

And, very memorably, my parents' sunday school class hosted this Jewish guy from Temple Emanu-El pretty regularly that spoke on "everything you wanted to know about Jews but were afraid to ask."  Was fascinating stuff.

Edited March 22, 2023 by TwiceHorn

[David Dennison 18941]

8 hours ago, Poe It Up said:

I have faith that there is a god, which science can’t disprove. So saying science over religion doesn’t make any sense to me. 

Children have faith that there is a Santa Claus, which science can't disprove.

Just sayin'.

Edited March 22, 2023 by David Dennison

[gmr548 16590]

I actually know several families that left LTISD for private school so thier kids could actually make a sports team.

I mean, living in LTISD and private school on a whim over sports is illustrative of the point.

Also hasn’t LT athletics come down to earth recently or am I misremembering that?

This is a broad generalization and certainly not the top reason we private school, but curious even if it were, what is inherently wrong with this in your view?

Obvious classism/prejudice aside, it’s a great way to produce sheltered, unadjusted kids that struggle with critical thinking and relating to or understanding people and issues outside of their bubble.

[Satchel 6939]

2 hours ago, Patricio Swayze said:

Satchel, are you one that believes that the Bible is the word of God and it is all to be taken literally? Just curious. I know gsoda feels that way.

That’s not what I believe at all.

[Satchel 6939]

2 hours ago, Beantown Express 2.0 said:

I think you are forgetting the part of the Bible, I believe it is in Deuteronomy, that specifically states that religion should be a big part of the government of the United States of America.  

 

I think that’s in II Opinions.

[Satchel 6939]

2 hours ago, WhatTheBuck said:

And are you qualified to tell me what it means? When it means what it says and when it doesn’t?

Yes and no.

[Satchel 6939]

1 hour ago, Patricio Swayze said:

Nobody has to prove god is real to me. I don’t care what religion, mythology or fairytales people choose to believe in. However, if people and politicians insist on pushing laws with a religious origins and framework, you sure as fuck better bring empirical evidence to the table.

Religion has no place in our government and laws.

I don’t think it’s that simple. When I observe flawed  public policy or an infirmity in the justice system that take advantage of people, I am, in a very real sense, exercising my religion by asking, is it right and just, even if I’m not wearing Jesus garb and carrying a big Bible satchel (hehe) in my hand.

[fattyflattie 4638]

7 hours ago, HamsterHookah said:

I love you all, especially you usual suspects.

BadTeammate?  

[tx 3 putt 77267]

Trump was the test for all ‘Christians’ and ‘Evangelicals’ 

a looooooooooot of those dumb mother dumb mother fuckers failed 

[Bookman 4639]

4 hours ago, WhatTheBuck said:

And are you qualified to tell me what it means? When it means what it says and when it doesn’t?

I am qualified to say that the Bible doesn't mean shit except to the people who choose to give it meaning.

[HamsterHookah 112]

8 hours ago, troph said:

I do have a new client that is an older guy and a practicing Christian, church going, conservative, but not a social conservative by political definition. Pretty sure he’s a democrat or a mild Republican in name only. Certainly not Trump and fine with me and my wife. He is a PURE JOY to work with. It’s remarkably refreshing. Plenty of non-Christians have deep and abiding good character but the familiarity I have with that from a Christian perspective from a long time ago makes this experience remarkable. 

This is a great example of a practicing Christian in the world and something I try to be as well, to all. It sounds like he's doing a fantastic job of practicing Philippians 4:5 and letting his gentleness be evident to all. We, especially myself as a practicing Christian, can all take note here.

[BevoAbyss 2076]

15 hours ago, Poe It Up said:

have faith that there is a god, which science can’t disprove. So saying science over religion doesn’t make any sense to me.

Logic can disprove it. So saying God created the universe makes no sense to me. In fact, it is flagrant fallacy and contradiction.

I know this post will not matter to any theists. But, I am tired of the sophomoric claims about science and God. A serious thread — weaponized religion —  requires serious critical thinking. I claim no original thought here, just echoing what I read, discussed, and learned over time from about age 22 to early 30s.

Sorry for long post, but this is about as brief as I can make it.

----------------------

Genesis 1:1 — “In the beginning, God created the heavens and earth.”

The Bible and all theist claims are based on Genesis 1:1 That’s it. That’s the entire foundation of ALL theologies. Every PhD theologian/educator (about 5-6) I have discussed this with concedes the following, as do all serious discussions of religion and philosophy in books and articles I read back in the day.

— God (or any Creator) must be pure Consciousness (or Spirit, etc). Otherwise, a God with any physical form would be part of the universe or empirical existence. So this means a Consciousness exists prior to all Existence (the universe, multiverse, or everything that exists, has existed or will exist in whatever form). So let’s make a simple diagram. 

Consciousness comes first  >>> followed by Existence

That’s the entire structure of Genesis 1:1. If Genesis 1:1 is false, impossible, or requires a fallacy or contradiction, then the rest of the Bible is just a collection of human-created myths, fables, and stories for a pre-scientific world, for a pre-secular consciousness. 

----------------------

Refutation of Genesis 1:1.

What follows is highly informed by my reading of Sartre’s Being and Nothingness, the seminal atheist/existentialist text of the 20th century, and other atheist/philosophy texts. 

1. A Consciousness existing before Existence is impossible, a contradiction. A Consciousness that always existed is also a fallacy. If there is no Existence yet, what would the Consciousness be conscious of? Itself? Impossible. A Consciousness aware of only itself is a contradiction, an impossibility. 

2. Consciousness can only be aware of itself in relation to Existence. A consciousness with nothing to be conscious of is a contradiction in terms. If there is nothing to be conscious of, then there is no way Consciousness can even know itself exists. Much less decide to create all of Existence and eons later choose to enlighten GQP-MAGA on a tiny planet amid two trillion galaxies. A logical diagram is this: 

Existence >>> Consciousness 

As Sartre famously said: “Existence precedes essence.”

3. Existence must come first, within which Consciousness emerged and evolved from the matter and elements of Existence. In fact, this is supported by ALL empirical evidence and contemporary science. Thus, the only logical and empirical conclusion to draw is God (in any form) does not exist. Never has, never will.

4. Finally, Existence has or needs no purpose, no teleology, and no Creator. Existence is what it is, in whatever form, everything existing in the past, present, or future.

It is much more sane to counter that existence itself has always existed and is home to all universes, multiverses, big bangs, big crunches, and all galaxies and stars and planets that ever existed. That’s what logic says and that what cosmology is beginning to suggest, as astronomers are beginning to realize the Big Bang happened in a pre-existing universe of some kind.

TLDR: Genesis 1:1 is a massive fallacy. Gods do not exist. The Bible is just a book of myths and fables. 

 

[HamsterHookah 112]

13 hours ago, Patricio Swayze said:

Do you vote for republicans like Abbott? I ask because while you say you are essentially live and let live, and let god sort it out, I see these fascists pushing theocracy on everyone. If you truly love this way and believe this way, I can’t see how you could vote for most republicans in this day and age. Please don’t give me this tax and small government nonsense. That ship has sailed a long time ago.

This is a good question and honestly, it's something I've struggled with starting in 2018. I've struggled with do I abstain or do I vote, and I still struggle with it today.

Since you asked in a good faith way I'll answer as honest and introspective as I can:

So far, right or wrong, my justification and actions have been that a) I have voted for Republicans like Abbott and b) my logic has been that as a Christian who believes that abortion is human-on-human murder, I'm at least trying.

I have become increasingly less politically interested (privilege?) though and might just abstain moving forward and let Babylon be Babylon and just focus on what God has given me to steward and resign the mental position in my head as master of my little universe.

[HamsterHookah 112]

5 minutes ago, BevoAbyss said:

Logic can disprove it. So saying God created the universe makes no sense to me. In fact, it is flagrant fallacy and contradiction.

I know this post will not matter to any theists. But, I am tired of the sophomoric claims about science and God. A serious thread — weaponized religion —  requires serious critical thinking. I claim no original thought here, just echoing what I read, discussed, and learned over time from about age 22 to early 30s.

Sorry for long post, but this is about as brief as I can make it.

 

----------------------

Genesis 1:1 — “In the beginning, God created the heavens and earth.”

The Bible and all theist claims are based on Genesis 1:1 That’s it. That’s the entire foundation of ALL theologies. Every PhD theologian/educator (about 5-6) I have discussed this with concedes the following, as do all serious discussions of religion and philosophy in books and articles I read back in the day.

— God (or any Creator) must be pure Consciousness (or Spirit, etc). Otherwise, a God with any physical form would be part of the universe or empirical existence. So this means a Consciousness exists prior to all Existence (the universe, multiverse, or everything that exists, has existed or will exist in whatever form). So let’s make a simple diagram. 

Consciousness comes first  >>> followed by Existence

That’s the entire structure of Genesis 1:1. If Genesis 1:1 is false, impossible, or requires a fallacy or contradiction, then the rest of the Bible is just a collection of human-created myths, fables, and stories for a pre-scientific world, for a pre-secular consciousness. 

----------------------

Refutation of Genesis 1:1.

What follows is highly informed by my reading of Sartre’s Being and Nothingness, the seminal atheist/existentialist text of the 20th century, and other atheist/philosophy texts. 

1. A Consciousness existing before Existence is impossible, a contradiction. A Consciousness that always existed is also a fallacy. If there is no Existence yet, what would the Consciousness be conscious of? Itself? Impossible. A Consciousness aware of only itself is a contradiction, an impossibility. 

2. Consciousness can only be aware of itself in relation to Existence. A consciousness with nothing to be conscious of is a contradiction in terms. If there is nothing to be conscious of, then there is no way Consciousness can even know itself exists. Much less decide to create all of Existence and eons later choose to enlighten GQP-MAGA on a tiny planet amid two trillion galaxies. A logical diagram is this: 

Existence >>> Consciousness 

As Sartre famously said: “Existence precedes essence.”

3. Existence must come first, within which Consciousness emerged and evolved from the matter and elements of Existence. In fact, this is supported by ALL empirical evidence and contemporary science. Thus, the only logical and empirical conclusion to draw is God (in any form) does not exist. Never has, never will.

4. Finally, Existence has or needs no purpose, no teleology, and no Creator. Existence is what it is, in whatever form, everything existing in the past, present, or future.

It is much more sane to counter that existence itself has always existed and is home to all universes, multiverses, big bangs, big crunches, and all galaxies and stars and planets that ever existed. That’s what logic says and that what cosmology is beginning to suggest, as astronomers are beginning to realize the Big Bang happened in a pre-existing universe of some kind.

TLDR: Genesis 1:1 is a massive fallacy. Gods do not exist. The Bible is just a book of myths and fables. 

 

Maybe I'm missing a fundamental piece of your argument here, but both Theists and non-theist scientists alike generally agree that the Universe and existence came forth from a singularity event. Call it Big Bang or Genesis 1:1, it's the same thing, just explained from a different perspective, right?

“The first gulp from the glass of natural sciences will turn you into an atheist, but at the bottom of the glass God is waiting for you.”

Whether it was Heisenberg (commonly misattributed) or more likely some other random German, the sentiment remains the same, because once you've used science and natural laws and the limits of conscious human ability to understand, you will inevitably get to a ledge where you either have to view on in faith, or view down the abyss until the abyss stares back at you. (Figured you'd appreciate the Nietzchism given your affinity for Sartre).

[WhatTheBuck 28794]

7 hours ago, Satchel said:

Yes and no.

A contradiction. How biblical.   

[Mole 4333]

Theist or not, if you find yourself posting long cats that aren’t in plain text, it might be time to reexamine your worldview and consider who or what is leading you to make these terrible lifestyle choices. Posts read in dark mode and I comprehended it not.

[WhatTheBuck 28794]

16 minutes ago, Mole said:

Theist or not, if you find yourself posting long cats that aren’t in plain text, it might be time to reexamine your worldview and consider who or what is leading you to make these terrible lifestyle choices. Posts read in dark mode and I comprehended it not.

Come into the light, my son. 

[Neonmoon 38130]

Anything is possible. We could all be possessed by Thetans because of Xenu. But there is a reason why we mock those that believe in Xenu and accommodate those that believe in Jesus. Time (and lots of killing by the ruling class). Both claims are outrageous, lack evidence, and are infused with the perverted morality of the founders of each cult.  

There is no point trying to reason with a delusional person. 

 

[Patricio Swayze 17058]

I don’t think it’s that simple. When I observe flawed  public policy or an infirmity in the justice system that take advantage of people, I am, in a very real sense, exercising my religion by asking, is it right and just, even if I’m not wearing Jesus garb and carrying a big Bible satchel (hehe) in my hand.

You might be, but I honestly don’t think your view of those laws is really being viewed specifically from your Christian beliefs, but instead from common human decency. Most people posses this with or without religion. Maybe in your mind your beliefs support your view of these injustices, and that’s fine, but I bet you would likely feel the same without the religious lens.