Religion, weaponized religion, and the separation of church and state

[UpperWestside 6163]

If you do not have any particular faith in God or any higher power that’s cool by me. I do find that fundamentalists in religion are absolutely a threat to those who believe differently than they do. If you want to believe in a magic chicken or the venerable Flying Spaghetti Monster feel free. 

If you are an atheist that’s also cool because being a good human being to others does not require you to believe in anything. I look at this country as a whole and I see good people from every kind of background imaginable that are able to live together.
 

I also see these fundamentalist nuts trying to hi-jack our country and government. I am no fan of them. They preach hate and intolerance and for my own faith that goes directly against anything Jesus ever said or taught. These people are dangerous because they will not stop until they get curb-stomped back under the rock they crawled out from under. 
 

I am very big on a separation of faith from our government. We cannot function in any positive manner with the continued insertion of religion into our local, state and national governing bodies. It’s a non-starter for me because invariably it leads to one group trying to subjugate those who are less powerful. That is absolutely something that’s a no-go for me personally.

[956 Worldwide 34710]

1 hour ago, BevoAbyss said:

 

 

So far, the human species — in its curiosity and creativity — is the only species on our planet to figure this out about the surrounding universe and life on Earth. And most of the humans on Planet Earth remain in denial, unwittingly clinging to their primate origins which they deny exist!  The virulent hatreds and claims to supremacy seen in religion (and society at large) are from our primate origins! […]

If all humans would accept our evolutionary origins as a single species on a tiny planet, then maybe — just maybe — we could slowly start to get along, live peacefully, share the benefits of our creativity and compassion, and protect the ecosystems of Planet Earth, upon which all life depends. But that ain't happening anytime soon. One key reason is because religion is the fount of Alt-Fact Culture. 

 

This is a bit of science-y gibberish. I have no idea what evidence you have to say that apes ever experience what we could recognize as “hate” or “feeling superior.”  Or for that matter, where you get the idea that religion is linked to our monkey origins, or how you’d even begin to measure this proposal. I welcome any papers about the orangutans’ quest for the divine. 
 

And in any case, the argument can just as easy go the other direction. Most religions implicitly or explicitly frame the spiritual and moral as man’s efforts to distance himself from the grubby beasts. And you’d be fighting biology to not embrace the reality that we are all just troops of hairless chimps who can vocalize, so better to pick up a rock and start bashing the chimps they don’t recognize.  

 

Edited April 22, 2023 by 956 Worldwide

[nbmishoid 949]

5 hours ago, Sawbonz said:

Are you trying to prove my point?

Bonz

This is a serious discussion on a serious board.  These non-theist views are simply that.  You’re better than/holier than thou statements are not in the least helpful or informative.   Ok, you are a theist.   

[WhatTheBuck 28779]

3 hours ago, Sawbonz said:

Amazing how you guys leave out Soviet Russia, Maoist China, pol pot’s Cambodia etc when you pontificate about how great state run atheism would be.

Nazi Germany and the Catholic Church say hello.

No reasonable person brings up Soviet Russia et al. because they’re irrelevant to the subject. Believers like to bring them up as a means to argue the dangers of atheism but that’s a fallacious argument. Authoritarianism is bad in all its forms. Just look at what a responsible member of the global community Russia is now that Putin has embraced the church. It’s not because they didn’t have religion that the regimes you mentioned were bad. In those systems the government took the place of religion. You can’t blame it on atheism which, again, isn’t a belief system. We can and do fill volumes with accounts of the atrocities committed in the name of the Christian god during the medieval period when there was no separation between the state and the Catholic Church, an era that we commonly refer to as the Dark Ages and which lasted for centuries.

Nobody is saying atheists can’t be assholes. I’m sure there are atheists out there who rape little children just like the Catholic priests and Baptist ministers do. But they’re not doing it because they’re atheists anymore than the Christians are doing it because they’re Christians. I’ll bet there are a lot more Christians raping little children than there are atheists doing it, though.

Which reminds me, I wonder if that “Atheists don’t...” website is still up...

<searching>

...Nope. I didn’t think it was still around. There used to be a website that compiled examples of awful acts committed in the name of religion. You could click through example after example endlessly of things atheists don’t do.

Now the first thing I found was this, which is still pretty cool:

 

[Sawbonz 27548]

9 minutes ago, WhatTheBuck said:

No reasonable person brings up Soviet Russia et al. because they’re irrelevant to the subject

Lulz

[Sawbonz 27548]

10 minutes ago, nbmishoid said:

Bonz

This is a serious discussion on a serious board.  These non-theist views are simply that.  You’re better than/holier than thou statements are not in the least helpful or informative.   Ok, you are a theist.   

I’m fairly certain there are several reading this thread who find my statements helpful and or informative. Also, if I feel like pointing out how annoying it is to be lectured by evangelicals, and a certain subtype of atheist, I will do so here or wherever I feel it is appropriate. Feel free to put me on ignore.

[Brian Fantana 6685]

2 minutes ago, Sawbonz said:

I’m fairly certain there are several reading this thread who find my statements helpful and or informative. Also, if I feel like pointing out how annoying it is to be lectured by evangelicals, and a certain subtype of atheist, I will do so here or wherever I feel it is appropriate. Feel free to put me on ignore.

You're not wrong about outspoken atheists being just as annoying as outspoken evangelicals, but there is a power dynamic at play here. Also, it seems like you are mainly just using your (justified) annoyance at outspoken atheists to concern troll about communism.

[troph 24788]

3 hours ago, Sawbonz said:

 

Again I have no interest in debating theology or atheism here. I am not conflating anything. While you pay lip service to a secular worldview your other posts make it very clear if you were in charge you would suppress religion in general and Christianity specifically. I have pointed out how that goes. Your posts do not make you seem like the live and let live type. Maybe you are, but what you write here doesn’t back that up

 

and don’t try to twist this into some apology for the christofascists. I am adamantly opposed to them. But that doesn’t mean I can’t see through your bullshit as well

I don’t think this is a counterpoint. I agree with this completely 

I meant that’s your counter point to religion is bad.  I was trying to state your position a bit differently.

[Sawbonz 27548]

1 minute ago, Brian Fantana said:

concern troll about communism.

Pointing out that most who extoll the virtues of atheism do so while ignoring the atrocities committed in the societies where it has been compelled by the state is “concern trolling?”  

 

I’m not sure how one would think pointing out the dangers of state imposed atheism in a thread about the dangers of sliding into state imposed religion would be a problem. 
 

to be fair I haven’t read the whole thread. Are there a bunch of posts saying religion is great, but weaponization of religion and state imposed religion are bad? 

[Patricio Swayze 17058]

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CrQ8coVriXF/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=

[nbmishoid 949]

16 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

You're not wrong about outspoken atheists being just as annoying as outspoken evangelicals, but there is a power dynamic at play here. Also, it seems like you are mainly just using your (justified) annoyance at outspoken atheists to concern troll about communism.

I don’t want you on ignore.  You are acting incredibly sensitive, or so it looks from here.  Thinking of this as a mutual exploration of the subject might. Be a more,helpful model than the debatE/advocacy model.     
 

[nbmishoid 949]

Brian

quoted wrong, could not edit.   That was for Bonz.

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

I think human history has shown you can’t stop people from praying and there’s a difference between atheists and anti-theists. 

[Neonmoon 38129]

I don’t give a fuck if your theist or atheist. Everyone should be free to believe whatever the fuck they want as long as those beliefs don’t infringe upon the life, liberty, or safety of any other person. The problem is most people believe in shitty things, whether theist or atheist, and want to use their shitty beliefs to wield power over others. 

Religious beliefs are inherently shitty because most religions were formed thousands of years ago when humanity was a murderous, misogynist, rapist fuck show. I’m not saying we’re much better now, but religion is the biggest anchor to our progress. 
 

 

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

Religion killed Socrates and Jesus. Or was it the state? Who is to say? 

[Sawbonz 27548]

6 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

Religion killed Socrates and Jesus. Or was it the state? Who is to say? 

Socrates was killed for just asking questions 

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

2 minutes ago, Sawbonz said:

Socrates was killed for just asking questions 

Socrates was the original troll.  Claimed to know nothing while exposing the ignorance of others. The problem for Socrates was he trolled the wrong people, some douchebag rich kid snowflakes.

[Satchel 6938]

6 hours ago, WhatTheBuck said:

You were asking for it. I was just answering the call.

If you want to make the atheists shut up, stop the Christians from trying to impose their religion on everyone else. 

As a person who bought the whole faith thing, I see no reason to make atheists shut up. I get why they may feel as constrained as those who oppose gun culture and who feel powerless against it.

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

The Amish have the right idea.  They don’t even vote. 

[TexPx 2323]

I like the atheists. The don’t leave flyers or bang on the door to invite me to their place of worship. Which they tell me is very inclusive.

[WhatTheBuck 28779]

2 hours ago, Sawbonz said:

Lulz

You dismiss because you can’t dispute.

[Satchel 6938]

Just as there are off putting Christians like atheist, Bill Maher, there are admirable Christians like the late atheist, Stanley Marcus.

[TheRealRonWeaver? 1258]

Pointing out that most who extoll the virtues of atheism do so while ignoring the atrocities committed in the societies where it has been compelled by the state is “concern trolling?”  
 
I’m not sure how one would think pointing out the dangers of state imposed atheism in a thread about the dangers of sliding into state imposed religion would be a problem. 
 
to be fair I haven’t read the whole thread. Are there a bunch of posts saying religion is great, but weaponization of religion and state imposed religion are bad? 

[Sawbonz 27548]

13 minutes ago, TheRealRonWeaver? said:

 

Do you have a point here? 

[Sawbonz 27548]

23 minutes ago, WhatTheBuck said:

You dismiss because you can’t dispute.

You made a ridiculous statement that on its face is false

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

19 minutes ago, TheRealRonWeaver? said:

 

Hitchens makes some thought provoking and well deserved criticisms of religion but the guy was also a provocateur bordering on disingenuous troll at times.  Especially with the whole “circumcision is ritualistic genital mutilation.”  The guy kept pushing the envelope to remain relevant I guess.

[Sawbonz 27548]

3 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

Hitchens makes some thought provoking and well deserved criticisms of religion but the guy was also a provocateur bordering on disingenuous troll at times.  Especially with the whole “circumcision is ritualistic genital mutilation.”  The guy kept pushing the envelope to remain relevant I guess.

I mean he’s right about circumcision IMO. 
 

WRT this clip Hitchens seems not to want to address the atrocities committed by those regimes rather he wants to blame the victims for the leaders that came to power. He then literally creates a straw man society for his opponent to refute rather than discuss the actual societies that have existed. Then he finishes up with “yeah well the Catholics killed a lot of people too and look who started WWI”

[Satchel 6938]

Guys like Hitchens, and to a lesser extent, Bill Maher intrigue me. That Hitchens would write an 800 page book on why God is not great, doesn’t really convey a lack of interest in the subject.

[Brian Fantana 6685]

17 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

Especially with the whole “circumcision is ritualistic genital mutilation.”

To be fair, it quite literally is. It is a mainstream medical procedure now because it also happens to be benificial. Doesn't change the fact that its roots are as a ritualistic (religious and/or rite of passage) practice that had nothing to do with health.

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

22 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

To be fair, it quite literally is. It is a mainstream medical procedure now because it also happens to be benificial. Doesn't change the fact that its roots are as a ritualistic (religious and/or rite of passage) practice that had nothing to do with health.

I know, kinda why it was bordering on trolling. He wasn’t openly advocating against circumcision, seemed like he was just trying to rile people up over an uncomfortable truth to further his anti-religion position. It was the way he argued the point that bothered me, I guess. 

Edited April 22, 2023 by Hugo Stiglitz

[BevoAbyss 2058]

4 hours ago, 956 Worldwide said:

This is a bit of science-y gibberish. I have no idea what evidence you have to say that apes ever experience what we could recognize as “hate” or “feeling superior.”

With all due respect: just because you are not informed on the subject does not mean it is "gibberish." 

Apparently, you know nothing of the revolutionary work of the great Jane Goodall — perhaps the most important primatologist of the 20th century. Here's a quote from Wikipedia:

"Then suddenly we found that chimpanzees could be brutal—that they, like us, had a darker side to their nature. .... Her findings revolutionised contemporary knowledge of chimpanzee behaviour and were further evidence of the social similarities between humans and chimpanzees, albeit in a much darker manner."

For a more detailed explanation of Goodall's findings, here is a screen capture from Wikipedia. . Note the clear examples of tribalism, violence, dominance, ganging up (feeling superior?) on a solitary monkey and killing it, etc.  

 

 

Edited April 22, 2023 by BevoAbyss

[HamsterHookah 112]

2 hours ago, Sawbonz said:

Socrates was killed for just asking questions 

Honestly, I feel seen.

[Brian Fantana 6685]

3 hours ago, Sawbonz said:

Pointing out that most who extoll the virtues of atheism do so while ignoring the atrocities committed in the societies where it has been compelled by the state is “concern trolling?”  

 

I’m not sure how one would think pointing out the dangers of state imposed atheism in a thread about the dangers of sliding into state imposed religion would be a problem. 
 

to be fair I haven’t read the whole thread. Are there a bunch of posts saying religion is great, but weaponization of religion and state imposed religion are bad? 

I think you are unfairly presenting imposed atheism as the root cause of the atrocities committed by those countries, when the real issue is authoritarianism. In reality, it's no different from any country that has imposed religion, whether it be officially or simply in practice, and brother there are PLENTY of examples of that throughout history and in the contemporary world.

In either case, the imposed religiosity/atheism is merely a symptom and a tool to enforce said authoritarianism. 

[nbmishoid 949]

But, BEVO, we don’t know what they were thinking.  I jest.  It is also only behavior, including statements, that we claim to know what humans are thinking, but we never do know.  That chimps are not conscious in some way relevant to them is absurd.  On a continuum this sort of animal sensibility runs thru dogs, and cats.  That they don’t have language does not mean they don’t have emotions that drive behavior.   Like others we know.  
 

Thanks for this perspective.

[Sawbonz 27548]

15 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

I think you are unfairly presenting imposed atheism as the root cause of the atrocities committed by those countries, when the real issue is authoritarianism. In reality, it's no different from any country that has imposed religion, whether it be officially or simply in practice, and brother there are PLENTY of examples of that throughout history and in the contemporary world.

In either case, the imposed religiosity/atheism is merely a symptom and a tool to enforce said authoritarianism. 

I agree with this statement completely. The authoritarianism is the problem. Historically religion has been the symptom/tool as you say. As the 20th century has shown us religion is neither necessary nor sufficient for authoritarianism to take hold.
 

I do think fascism/far right/religiosity go together. There is authoritarianism on the far left as well and violent religious oppression is an integral part of it

 

To all you atheists who just want to be left alone, I’m not accusing you of being complicit in that evil. Just as I hope you do not blame the people of faith who just want to worship in peace for what the far right is trying to do here

 

One last thing re rapists, pedophiles, etc. You will find them in any society; just look for places of power imbalance. If you are in a majority “Christian” country, most offenders will be Christian; in a majority Muslim country most will be Muslim. In a completely atheist society, well I hate to break it to you, but they will be there as well, likely in the same proportion 

[BevoAbyss 2058]

6 hours ago, 956 Worldwide said:

Most religions implicitly or explicitly frame the spiritual and moral as man’s efforts to distance himself from the grubby beasts.

I fail to see how turning away from the very evolutionary things that clearly separate humanity from the apes — namely, our science, reason, logic, aesthetics, to name a few things that we developed — is the path away from the apes.

How is the belief in an unseen, never seen, never heard from God (who does not a damn thing to improve life on Planet Earth) any better than apes? It's not and history has shown that time and time again. 

You posted a pic of a chimp, apparently suggesting that grasping our evolution origins is counter to humanity. Lulz.

This pic from the original Planet of the Apes (1968) captures the essential attitude and worldview of religion toward science, logic, evidence, or anything that refutes their beliefs. And, to offer the obligatory quote from the astronaut Taylor (played by Charlton Heston): "There has to be something better than man out there. Has to be."  

The failure of basic science education in this country is astonishing. It's no wonder MAGA-GQP are so powerful. We're in the middle of an epic intellectual/educational collapse and a huge swath of America is literally devolving right before our eyes. Taylor's also right about something else: "It's a madhouse!

Edited April 23, 2023 by BevoAbyss

[WhatTheBuck 28779]

2 hours ago, Sawbonz said:

Do you have a point here? 

“You lose, boychik.”

[Sawbonz 27548]

Just now, WhatTheBuck said:

“You lose, boychik.”

Nope

[WhatTheBuck 28779]

2 hours ago, Sawbonz said:

You made a ridiculous statement that on its face is false

Not at all. Hitchens was making the same point. It’s not atheism that drove Stalin to kill, it was tyranny, the demand for absolute devotion to the state. The political ideology became the new dogma. It demanded a fanatical devotion the same as any religion. It’s a bullshit argument that Christians use to threaten about the dangers of atheism by pointing to the behavior of authoritarian regimes like the “godless communists” in Soviet Russia. Again, have you seen the atrocities the Russians are committing in Ukraine? Putin has embraced the church and now we have members of the Christian Right in this country taking his side and repeating his propaganda.

You should know better. 

[Sawbonz 27548]

45 minutes ago, BevoAbyss said:

And, to offer the obligatory quote from the astronaut Taylor (played by Charlton Heston): "There has to be something better than man out there. Has to be."  

For younger people who only know him as basically the embodiment of this thread’s title, his getting that role must seem the most ironic casting ever

 

He could be the poster boy for brain worms

 

 

Edit

 

Also if I have misread the tone of some of your other posts and attributed a level of anti theism to you that is unwarranted I would like to apologize. 
 

but not for the Michael Keaton jerkoff gif. This is Surly after all

Edited April 23, 2023 by Sawbonz

[Sawbonz 27548]

2 minutes ago, WhatTheBuck said:

Not at all. Hitchens was making the same point. It’s not atheism that drove Stalin to kill, it was tyranny, the demand for absolute devotion to the state. The political ideology became the new dogma. It demanded a fanatical devotion the same as any religion. It’s a bullshit argument that Christians use to threaten about the dangers of atheism by pointing to the behavior of authoritarian regimes like the “godless communists” in Soviet Russia. Again, have you seen the atrocities the Russians are committing in Ukraine? Putin has embraced the church and now we have members of the Christian Right in this country taking his side and repeating his propaganda.

You should know better. 

See the rest of my posts. You (and Hitchens) want to paint religion as the root cause when atrocities are perpetrated by the far right. It’s not, as evidenced by the fact atrocities from the far left have been committed (and at a far greater scale, though this is due to technological advances in killing rather than lack of effort in earlier societies), where not only is religion not used to justify the acts, it is violently suppressed by the perpetrators. 
 

That clip from Hitchens is intellectually lazy and one long logical fallacy. 

[atomheartbevo 89659]

8 hours ago, Huckleberry said:

 because the evangelists never actually do keep their religion out of their faces. 

The evangelists are almost as bad as cross-fitters.

[atomheartbevo 89659]

23 hours ago, BevoAbyss said:

I guess, somehow, the 30-35% of Americans who are non-religious need to organize on local, national, and international scales. And they need to have a platform and manifesto, just for starters. If it is not too late. But maybe the non-religious are too apathetic because consumer society offers endless distractions....

They need to work with the smaller religious groups including Christian sects (such as Lutherans, Methodists, Pentecostals), the Jews, Muslims, Sikhs, etc. and they need to frame this as a fairly small portion of religious fanatics (evangelicals as we know them by their behavior, not the textbook definition) who are trying to fuck with the vast majority who aren't evangelicals.  It may not seem like an existential crisis, and arguably it isn't (it'll pass, the youths are too non-evangelical/churchy), but we still need to frame it as "if we give this to them, they'll just do more". 

Make sure that people know that during Dan Patrick's Dannie Goeb's inauguration, he said "I respect all faiths and religions, but I am a Christian first, a conservative second and a Republican third, and I praise Jesus for this moment and this day".

Maybe even get the Catholics on board since here in Texas, it's a bunch of Baptists/evangelicals who are trying to inflict their version of Christianity on everybody else, even though the Catholics are the largest group in Texas, and in the scheme of things, the Baptists are vastly outnumbered by everybody else.

And we need to play the Catholics off against the Baptists/evangelicals pushing this shit.  Maybe even goad your Baptist/evangelical relatives/friends with "oh, we need a lot more religion in schools, and since the Catholics are the largest group in Texas, we need to look to them for guidance on this - kids need to learn to look towards the Vatican and Pope."

They also need to put names and faces on this stuff, including Dan Patrick, and they need to make the Republicans push this completely own this - dig up their comments, etc. because most of these evangelical motherfuckers at some point have made sure to bash other Christian sects/groups or religions - they are proud of it even.

[Satchel 6938]

7 hours ago, Brian Fantana said:

You're not wrong about outspoken atheists being just as annoying as outspoken evangelicals, but there is a power dynamic at play here. Also, it seems like you are mainly just using your (justified) annoyance at outspoken atheists to concern troll about communism.

What’s missing here is an acknowledgment that there is supposed to be a point to Christians engaging non Christians. Sadly, it is a point routinely ignored and/or poorly executed by holy roller types who take themselves way too seriously and who end up making a mockery of the very thing they call themselves defending.

[dcbc 14480]

2 hours ago, atomheartbevo said:

Methodists,

As someone from a family who recently cut ties, the Methodists in Texas and elsewhere are working some things out. Even the churches which didn't split to the "Global Methodist Church" may be anything up to the shitty side of 65% evangelical.  Not sure they can be counted on for any tough assignments at this point.  But it depends on the church and its leadership mostly.  Not a sure thing by any means.

Edited April 23, 2023 by dcbc

[Satchel 6938]

5 minutes ago, dcbc said:

As someone from a family who recently cut ties, the Methodists in Texas and elsewhere are working some things out. Even the churches which didn't split to the "Global Methodist Church" may be anything up to the shitty side of 65% evangelical.  Not sure they can be counted on for any tough assignments at this point.

Since the provision under which UMC congregations would be free to leave the denomination with their properties, required opposition to all rights and privileges of LGBTQ members, the vast majority of the shitty side left in a huff.

[dcbc 14480]

10 minutes ago, Satchel said:

Since the provision under which UMC congregations would be free to leave the denomination with their properties, required opposition to all rights and privileges of LGBTQ members, the vast majority of the shitty side left in a huff.

Right.  My point was that it required a 2/3 vote.  So there are remaining UMC congregations where up to 65% of the congregations voted to leave, but they couldn't make the 2/3 margin.  How overall nutty the congregation is depends on the church.  To an extent, it may just reflect the local population with larger metro churches skewing far lower on that percentage scale.  Consider my avatar as indicative of my location and how things went locally for us.

Edited April 23, 2023 by dcbc

[Satchel 6938]

8 minutes ago, dcbc said:

Right.  My point was that it required a 2/3 vote.  So there are remaining UMC congregations where up to 65% of the congregations voted to leave, but they couldn't make the 2/3 margin.  How overall nutty the congregation is depends on the church.  To an extent, it may just reflect the local population with larger metro churches skewing far lower on that percentage scale.  Consider my avatar as indicative of my location and how things went locally for us.

In the NTC, we “lost” a couple of First Churches, among them, Irving and Carrollton. The most surprising loss by far was St. Andrew in Plano. They made no secret of misusing the provision since they made no secret of their leaving being based on financial considerations which had next to nothing to do with LGBTQ issue.

[Pato del Muerto 52492]

29 minutes ago, dcbc said:

Right.  My point was that it required a 2/3 vote.  So there are remaining UMC congregations where up to 65% of the congregations voted to leave, but they couldn't make the 2/3 margin.  How overall nutty the congregation is depends on the church.  To an extent, it may just reflect the local population with larger metro churches skewing far lower on that percentage scale.  Consider my avatar as indicative of my location and how things went locally for us.

One could surmise that those that voted to leave would but their parish did not, would then seek a new spiritual home where the hating of gays is still sanctified in Jesus’ name. Well, not Jesus’ really since the common biblical reference is from the OT way before Jesus was born. 
 

hey, kinda like the 10 commandments!

Edited April 23, 2023 by Pato del Muerto

[UpperWestside 6163]

There are places I want to visit in Montana, but when I read about what they are doing to the trans representative and not even allowing her to speak, well, I will just not go there. My God what a bunch of backwards ghouls picking on a small group of people just to score some political points. A lot of our fellow citizens really do not deserve to breathe the same air as the rest of us. Montana is what religious fundamentalists look like. These are mentally broken, deranged and unwell people.