Youth Minister's (and other pervs) Thread of Shame

[staboner 5017]

damn. everytime this mug is bumped i am hoping osteen's bitchass is here 

prob too direct for teh simutation. 

Edited September 17 by staboner

[PRONG HORN 3164]

2 hours ago, staboner said:

damn. everytime this mug is bumped i am hoping osteen's bitchass is here 

prob too direct for teh simutation. 

 

 

I've done work that was at the his church/The Summit, and near the children's area there are desert themed paintings that cover the walls.  There is a very specific rock with a Disney style dick right smack dab in the middle for everyone to see.  I'm sure the painter was having fun, but there is still a dick on the wall of the kids area complete with subtle head and veins.  If anyone goes there and the desert themed murals are still there, I'm sure it hasn't been painted over.  

 

 

[KYHorn 17291]

On 9/7/2024 at 6:58 AM, PRONG HORN said:

 

 

 

 

Acting in all those Criminal Minds shows must really mess with your head.

[Nice Guy Eddie 13558]

This guy may have only been a volunteer (unpaid?) at Prestonwood church in north Dallas but good enough to make the list.

 

[royiv 9415]

On 10/2/2024 at 8:11 AM, Nice Guy Eddie said:

This guy may have only been a volunteer (unpaid?) at Prestonwood church in north Dallas but good enough to make the list.

 

 

Definitely not creepy.

[Foosters 17937]

Ahh yes, a fellow oil enthusiast 

[Deej 77235]

1 hour ago, Foosters said:

Ahh yes, a fellow oil enthusiast 

Diddy approves

[bolverk 29835]

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/10/03/us/churches-dallas-fort-worth-sexual-abuse.html

On a Sunday morning, the pastor of Fellowship Church in Grapevine, Texas, took the stage with his wife to reassure their congregation.

“Lisa is the only woman I’ve ever been with, and I’m the only man she’s ever been with — and I say ‘been with’ in a biblical sense,” said Ed Young, who founded the church in the late 1980s.

About 4,000 people were in the room, with thousands more watching online. The pastor added, “We don’t have to worry about any sexual skeletons in our closet coming from the past.”

In normal circumstances, it was the kind of claim that many churchgoers would hope went without saying. But in the Dallas-Forth Worth area this year, a pastor with a clean reputation is not to be taken for granted.

The Youngs’ joint sermon came in late June, days after Robert Morris, the founder of the nearby Gateway Church, resigned as senior pastor after being accused of sexually abusing a child in the 1980s.

The week before, another local pastor with a national profile, Tony Evans, shocked many evangelicals by stepping away from the pulpit over an undisclosed “sin.”

Gateway is one of the largest churches in the metro area, which is known for its many and mammoth-size congregations. Mr. Evans’s predominantly Black church in South Dallas, Oak Cliff Bible Fellowship, claims a membership of about 10,000 people.

The drumbeat of downfalls, surprise departures and even arrests continued all summer and into the fall. An associate pastor at Stonebriar Community Church in Frisco (3,700 attendees) was fired in July for a “moral failure.” The lead pastor of Cross Timbers Church in Argyle (5,000 attendees) resigned over “inappropriate and hurtful” actions.

Another local pastor with a national profile, Steven J. Lawson, fell in mid-September, when leaders of Trinity Bible Church of Dallas announced that they had removed him over an “inappropriate relationship that he has had with a woman.” A running list of local pastors “involved in controversies this year” maintained by the local television station WFAA now contains 17 names, including five involving criminal charges. This week, a leader at Revival City Church in McKinney was arrested on a domestic violence charge.

“It’s like the unbuckling of the Bible Belt,” Mr. Young said in an interview last week.

cont'd:

Spoiler

There’s no clear pattern to the scandals, which range widely. The churches are all Protestant but belong to different denominations — or none at all — and have different theological beliefs and worship styles.

But the cumulative impact has been unsettling for many Christians and their leaders in Dallas, a city that the magazine Christianity Today once declared “the new capital of evangelicalism.”

“People are trying to uncover the ‘why,’” said Mary DeMuth, an evangelical author who lives in the Dallas suburb of Rockwall.

The Dallas-Fort Worth region is home to more than 6,500 houses of worship, the highest concentration in the top 10 largest urban regions in the country, according to the 2020 U.S. religion census. Four of the 20 largest churches in the country are in the area.

It’s a place where one might overhear intense prayers at coffee shops, where weekday Bible studies can draw hundreds of people and where celebrity pastors loom large — literally — on billboards along the highway. One popular downtown church advises visitors to start waiting in line up to two hours before its Sunday service.

At Gateway, the revelations unfolded over time. Mr. Morris, a onetime faith adviser in President Donald J. Trump’s administration, had disclosed a “moral failure” decades ago to elders at his previous church and even referred to it obliquely from the pulpit, though he never offered specifics publicly.

This summer, a woman named Cindy Clemishire came forward and said Mr. Morris began abusing her when she was 12 and he was a married pastor. The abuse continued over the course of five years in the 1980s, she said.

After her account became public, Mr. Morris confessed from the pulpit in June to “inappropriate sexual behavior with a young lady.” The backlash to his characterization of child sexual abuse as “inappropriate” and his adolescent victim as a “young lady” was immediate. He resigned days later; his son James, who had been named as his successor, also left the church, along with a founding elder.

The church, which did not describe the offense as the sexual abuse of a child until later in the summer, has suffered some consequences. A spokesman, Lawrence Swicegood, said the church now drew about 19,500 people a week, a decline of nearly 25 percent from earlier this year.

In an interview this week, Ms. Clemishire said she wished Gateway would more clearly name Mr. Morris’s actions as criminal and provide more avenues for people in the church to report abuse by leaders.

But she said she was encouraged by Mr. Morris’s departure and by the other ousters in the region.

“I honestly feel like people are taking it more seriously than they ever have, finally,” she said.

In a statement to The New York Times this week, Mr. Swicegood said the church was committed to protecting, “first and foremost, children and the most vulnerable.”

Some evangelicals have proposed a revival of “the Billy Graham rule,” or the principle that a man should never be alone with a woman who is not his wife. Critics point out that it effectively prevents women from advancing in organizations led by men. The “rule” was one of several guidelines developed by Mr. Graham’s team in the 1940s, as the evangelist’s profile was rising — a fortress against the temptations of pride, lust and frequent travel.

Larry Ross, who has headed an eponymous public relations firm in Dallas for 40 years, represented Mr. Graham for decades.

Accountability is crucial in preventing and responding to failures, Mr. Ross said, but so is perspective.

A faithful, clean-living pastor is like an airplane taking off or landing successfully at Dallas Fort Worth International Airport, Mr. Ross said, recalling a similar insight from Mr. Graham. It happens thousands of times a day, and no one notices. “But if any one of them crashes, it’s going to be on the news,” he said.

Others observed that many of the affected churches were essentially accountable only to their own members, with little, if any, external denominational oversight.

When independently governed churches grow large enough, true accountability is almost impossible, said George Mason, who retired in 2022 as pastor of a prominent, progressive Baptist church in Dallas after more than 30 years.

Because an independent church’s popularity and growth depend largely on a single charismatic man, his downfall would bring not just institutional embarrassment, but a threat to employee livelihoods and, as some see it, to the salvation of perhaps thousands of people.

In that sense, “it is a systemic thing,” Mr. Mason said.

For some pastors, the outbreak is a nudge to humility, especially given the previously sterling reputations of several men in the headlines this year.

“Stories like this remind me to be watchful about my own life,” said Bart Barber, a pastor in Farmersville, Texas, about an hour northeast of Dallas.

“I want to get on and say, ‘It’s terrible, a true pastor should never do that!’” said Mr. Barber, the previous president of the Southern Baptist Convention. “Then I think, ‘What would Steve Lawson have said in an interview five years ago?’ Probably something very similar,” he said, referring to the pastor who resigned at Trinity Bible Church of Dallas.

Ms. DeMuth, the writer, sees the exposures as a positive thing, a downstream effect of the #MeToo movement and a rising appetite for transparency in church circles. It’s “God cleaning house and saying, ‘Enough of this tomfoolery,’” she said.

 

[SydneyCarton 48385]

56 minutes ago, bolverk said:

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/10/03/us/churches-dallas-fort-worth-sexual-abuse.html

On a Sunday morning, the pastor of Fellowship Church in Grapevine, Texas, took the stage with his wife to reassure their congregation.

“Lisa is the only woman I’ve ever been with, and I’m the only man she’s ever been with — and I say ‘been with’ in a biblical sense,” said Ed Young, who founded the church in the late 1980s.

About 4,000 people were in the room, with thousands more watching online. The pastor added, “We don’t have to worry about any sexual skeletons in our closet coming from the past.”

In normal circumstances, it was the kind of claim that many churchgoers would hope went without saying. But in the Dallas-Forth Worth area this year, a pastor with a clean reputation is not to be taken for granted.

The Youngs’ joint sermon came in late June, days after Robert Morris, the founder of the nearby Gateway Church, resigned as senior pastor after being accused of sexually abusing a child in the 1980s.

The week before, another local pastor with a national profile, Tony Evans, shocked many evangelicals by stepping away from the pulpit over an undisclosed “sin.”

Gateway is one of the largest churches in the metro area, which is known for its many and mammoth-size congregations. Mr. Evans’s predominantly Black church in South Dallas, Oak Cliff Bible Fellowship, claims a membership of about 10,000 people.

The drumbeat of downfalls, surprise departures and even arrests continued all summer and into the fall. An associate pastor at Stonebriar Community Church in Frisco (3,700 attendees) was fired in July for a “moral failure.” The lead pastor of Cross Timbers Church in Argyle (5,000 attendees) resigned over “inappropriate and hurtful” actions.

Another local pastor with a national profile, Steven J. Lawson, fell in mid-September, when leaders of Trinity Bible Church of Dallas announced that they had removed him over an “inappropriate relationship that he has had with a woman.” A running list of local pastors “involved in controversies this year” maintained by the local television station WFAA now contains 17 names, including five involving criminal charges. This week, a leader at Revival City Church in McKinney was arrested on a domestic violence charge.

“It’s like the unbuckling of the Bible Belt,” Mr. Young said in an interview last week.

cont'd:

  Reveal hidden contents

There’s no clear pattern to the scandals, which range widely. The churches are all Protestant but belong to different denominations — or none at all — and have different theological beliefs and worship styles.

But the cumulative impact has been unsettling for many Christians and their leaders in Dallas, a city that the magazine Christianity Today once declared “the new capital of evangelicalism.”

“People are trying to uncover the ‘why,’” said Mary DeMuth, an evangelical author who lives in the Dallas suburb of Rockwall.

The Dallas-Fort Worth region is home to more than 6,500 houses of worship, the highest concentration in the top 10 largest urban regions in the country, according to the 2020 U.S. religion census. Four of the 20 largest churches in the country are in the area.

It’s a place where one might overhear intense prayers at coffee shops, where weekday Bible studies can draw hundreds of people and where celebrity pastors loom large — literally — on billboards along the highway. One popular downtown church advises visitors to start waiting in line up to two hours before its Sunday service.

At Gateway, the revelations unfolded over time. Mr. Morris, a onetime faith adviser in President Donald J. Trump’s administration, had disclosed a “moral failure” decades ago to elders at his previous church and even referred to it obliquely from the pulpit, though he never offered specifics publicly.

This summer, a woman named Cindy Clemishire came forward and said Mr. Morris began abusing her when she was 12 and he was a married pastor. The abuse continued over the course of five years in the 1980s, she said.

After her account became public, Mr. Morris confessed from the pulpit in June to “inappropriate sexual behavior with a young lady.” The backlash to his characterization of child sexual abuse as “inappropriate” and his adolescent victim as a “young lady” was immediate. He resigned days later; his son James, who had been named as his successor, also left the church, along with a founding elder.

The church, which did not describe the offense as the sexual abuse of a child until later in the summer, has suffered some consequences. A spokesman, Lawrence Swicegood, said the church now drew about 19,500 people a week, a decline of nearly 25 percent from earlier this year.

In an interview this week, Ms. Clemishire said she wished Gateway would more clearly name Mr. Morris’s actions as criminal and provide more avenues for people in the church to report abuse by leaders.

But she said she was encouraged by Mr. Morris’s departure and by the other ousters in the region.

“I honestly feel like people are taking it more seriously than they ever have, finally,” she said.

In a statement to The New York Times this week, Mr. Swicegood said the church was committed to protecting, “first and foremost, children and the most vulnerable.”

Some evangelicals have proposed a revival of “the Billy Graham rule,” or the principle that a man should never be alone with a woman who is not his wife. Critics point out that it effectively prevents women from advancing in organizations led by men. The “rule” was one of several guidelines developed by Mr. Graham’s team in the 1940s, as the evangelist’s profile was rising — a fortress against the temptations of pride, lust and frequent travel.

Larry Ross, who has headed an eponymous public relations firm in Dallas for 40 years, represented Mr. Graham for decades.

Accountability is crucial in preventing and responding to failures, Mr. Ross said, but so is perspective.

A faithful, clean-living pastor is like an airplane taking off or landing successfully at Dallas Fort Worth International Airport, Mr. Ross said, recalling a similar insight from Mr. Graham. It happens thousands of times a day, and no one notices. “But if any one of them crashes, it’s going to be on the news,” he said.

Others observed that many of the affected churches were essentially accountable only to their own members, with little, if any, external denominational oversight.

When independently governed churches grow large enough, true accountability is almost impossible, said George Mason, who retired in 2022 as pastor of a prominent, progressive Baptist church in Dallas after more than 30 years.

Because an independent church’s popularity and growth depend largely on a single charismatic man, his downfall would bring not just institutional embarrassment, but a threat to employee livelihoods and, as some see it, to the salvation of perhaps thousands of people.

In that sense, “it is a systemic thing,” Mr. Mason said.

For some pastors, the outbreak is a nudge to humility, especially given the previously sterling reputations of several men in the headlines this year.

“Stories like this remind me to be watchful about my own life,” said Bart Barber, a pastor in Farmersville, Texas, about an hour northeast of Dallas.

“I want to get on and say, ‘It’s terrible, a true pastor should never do that!’” said Mr. Barber, the previous president of the Southern Baptist Convention. “Then I think, ‘What would Steve Lawson have said in an interview five years ago?’ Probably something very similar,” he said, referring to the pastor who resigned at Trinity Bible Church of Dallas.

Ms. DeMuth, the writer, sees the exposures as a positive thing, a downstream effect of the #MeToo movement and a rising appetite for transparency in church circles. It’s “God cleaning house and saying, ‘Enough of this tomfoolery,’” she said.

 

Wait. Is that the same Ed Young prick who oversees 2nd Baptist here in Houston, or are guys named Ed Young just completely contemptible pieces of shit?

[bolverk 29835]

3 minutes ago, SydneyCarton said:

Wait. Is that the same Ed Young prick who oversees 2nd Baptist here in Houston, or are guys named Ed Young just completely contemptible pieces of shit?

I had to google it:

Ed Young, Sr., is the Houston guy, and Ed Young, Jr., is the Dallas one.

[tx 3 putt 77960]

fuck this pedo rapist ….

 

[Brisketexan 105627]

fuck this pedo rapist ….
 

Well, the 13 year old girl was clearly a demonic harlot temptress who led a good (old white) man of god astray. You know how this goes. Really, it was her fault.

[jkates 316]

On 10/3/2024 at 3:16 PM, SydneyCarton said:

Wait. Is that the same Ed Young prick who oversees 2nd Baptist here in Houston, or are guys named Ed Young just completely contemptible pieces of shit?

They are father and son, but neither is a piece of shit.

[Brisketexan 105627]

Just now, jkates said:

They are father and son, but neither is a piece of shit.

Oh, they're giant pieces of shit.  Maybe not (yet) revealed as sexual criminals, but they are pieces of shit.

[Foosters 17937]

1 minute ago, jkates said:

They are father and son, but neither is a piece of shit.

[jkates 316]

1 minute ago, Brisketexan said:

Oh, they're giant pieces of shit.  Maybe not (yet) revealed as sexual criminals, but they are pieces of shit.

That's simply not true, but I'm not going to try to change anyone's mind.

I have my disagreements with both, and I know both personally, but I'm sure random people on the internet are a better source.

Carry on.

[Brisketexan 105627]

1 minute ago, jkates said:

That's simply not true, but I'm not going to try to change anyone's mind.

I have my disagreements with both, and I know both personally, but I'm sure random people on the internet are a better source.

Carry on.

I grew up in Houston.  Know a good number of people who have lived and been educated/subjected to the Second Baptist bullshit.  Have listened to and read his exact words.  Old Ed is a huge piece of shit.  I'll confess to not knowing much about Jr.

[hookemATL 11993]

51 minutes ago, jkates said:

They are father and son, but neither is a piece of shit.

https://baptistnews.com/article/ed-young-calls-immigrants-undesirables-garbage-and-raff/

So so sorry, he is not a piece of shit.  He is a fucking cunt and Saint Peter should rightly tell him to pound sand once he shuffles off this mortal coil.  

 

Edited October 9 by hookemATL
I’m sure junior is just a chip off the ole fuckboi

[SydneyCarton 48385]

1 hour ago, jkates said:

They are father and son, but neither is a piece of shit.

 

1 hour ago, jkates said:

That's simply not true, but I'm not going to try to change anyone's mind.

I have my disagreements with both, and I know both personally, but I'm sure random people on the internet are a better source.

Carry on.

Ok, well, I'm a citizen of Houston, and even if I ignore that he preaches hateful politics from the pulpit, and violates the law of churches being political with impugnity, they've covered up and overlooked at least two publicitied rape and sexual assault cases for employees who worked for Second Baptist. It sounds super duper upstanding, I'm sure lead by righteous men 

[deft 6901]

I’m not gonna bother scrolling back and looking but isn’t @jkates the person who has defended people and actions of peoples on here in the past?

[jkates 316]

I’m not gonna bother scrolling back and looking but isn’t [mention=2704]jkates[/mention] the person who has defended people and actions of peoples on here in the past?

I've probably defended someone along the way. Especially if I know the truth and others only know out of context stuff and/or rumors.

Is defending my friends against lies bad in your book?

[deft 6901]

Well if you lie down with dogs,

[jkates 316]

Well if you lie down with dogs,

If you move the goalposts...

[wildcat09 29453]

15 hours ago, jkates said:

I've probably defended someone along the way. Especially if I know the truth and others only know out of context stuff and/or rumors.

Is defending my friends against lies bad in your book?

You're a bad person and so are your friends. 

[Sawbonz 27791]

15 hours ago, jkates said:

out of context stuff

The context of fucking kids?

 

Also lol at the idea that a PK, especially one at a place like 2nd Baptist, never had premarital sex. Dude fucked everything that wasn’t nailed down. 
 

And did all the drugs 

[HiggyBaby 2563]

Anyways 

[SydneyCarton 48385]

Predators go where the prey is, and there's no place more likely to provide up innocent children and have it covered up, or the victim be shamed for the reputation of the church, or the parents be in denial than in the Clergy. There's a fucking reason molestors spend hundreds of years in the Catholic Church. We see it now with the Southern Baptist Convention. And hell, in evangelical circles we've seen the victim shunned by the congregation and the pastor predator fucking forgiven and lionezed by his zealots basically in minutes. For assulating children. 

It's just that simple. Fishermen go where there are fish. Deer Hunters set out deer feeders. 

[royiv 9415]

32 minutes ago, HiggyBaby said:

Anyways 

This one hits close to home. My family has very close ties to Brite. A conservative institution it is not. It is one of, if not the, most progressive divinity schools in the country. Brite integrated in 1952, twelve years prior to TCU and four years prior to Texas. This news makes me sad for the very fine people at Brite that have to deal with the fallout from this.

[Brisketexan 105627]

55 minutes ago, SydneyCarton said:

and there's no place more likely to provide up innocent children and have it covered up, or the victim be shamed for the reputation of the church, or the parents be in denial than in the Clergy. There's a fucking reason molestors spend hundreds of years in the Catholic Church. We see it now with the Southern Baptist Convention. And hell, in evangelical circles we've seen the victim shunned by the congregation and the pastor predator fucking forgiven and lionezed by his zealots basically in minutes. For assulating children. 

This.  Times 1000.  These are rigid, authoritarian cultures that demand loyalty to those at the top.  If a beloved pastor is "led astray," well, he's a good and godly man, and what we're dealing with here is a harlot and temptress sent by the devil.  And honestly, Jane, it would be best for the church and for you if you'd keep this to yourself.  It's what Jesus would want, and you don't want to upset Jesus, do you?

It's fucking enraging, but....what about Christianity these days ISN'T?

[HiggyBaby 2563]

4 hours ago, SydneyCarton said:

Predators go where the prey is, and there's no place more likely to provide up innocent children and have it covered up, or the victim be shamed for the reputation of the church, or the parents be in denial than in the Clergy. There's a fucking reason molestors spend hundreds of years in the Catholic Church. We see it now with the Southern Baptist Convention. And hell, in evangelical circles we've seen the victim shunned by the congregation and the pastor predator fucking forgiven and lionezed by his zealots basically in minutes. For assulating children. 

It's just that simple. Fishermen go where there are fish. Deer Hunters set out deer feeders. 

Yep. 

[Fudge Nuggets 19284]

10 hours ago, Sawbonz said:

The context of fucking kids?

 

Also lol at the idea that a PK, especially one at a place like 2nd Baptist, never had premarital sex. Dude fucked everything that wasn’t nailed down. 
 

And did all the drugs 

What do placekickers have to do with anything?

[tx 3 putt 77960]

 

[Deej 77235]

On 10/10/2024 at 8:55 PM, Fudge Nuggets said:

What do placekickers have to do with anything?

Well...

[Burt 4096]

 

[Captainant 27990]

1 hour ago, Burt said:

 

Those damn trans folks are at it again, grooming children for their cause

[royiv 9415]

3 hours ago, Burt said:

 

I’m sure it’s just a witch hunt due to his political leanings.

[C-Man 27388]

4 hours ago, Burt said:

 

Don Jr is a fan.

 

[Rip76 4987]

File this under "other pervs."

Former Abercrombie & Fitch CEO Mike Jeffries arrested on sex trafficking charges

The former CEO of Abercrombie & Fitch, Mike Jeffries, has been arrested on sex trafficking and interstate prostitution charges, according to two senior law enforcement officials briefed on the matter.

Jeffries has been arrested in West Palm Beach, Florida. Two other associates, Matthew Smith of West Palm Beach and James Jacobson of Wisconsin, were also arrested in connection with sex trafficking charges.

 

[tx 3 putt 77960]

he was a dead man walking ….

 

[Longhornstampede 3193]

On 10/10/2024 at 8:55 PM, Fudge Nuggets said:

What do placekickers have to do with anything?

Or Possum Kingdom?

[Fudge Nuggets 19284]

10 hours ago, Longhornstampede said:

Or Possum Kingdom?

Yeah... what about that?

[Sawbonz 27791]

10 hours ago, Longhornstampede said:

Or Possum Kingdom?

 

34 minutes ago, Fudge Nuggets said:

Yeah... what about that?

Y’all seriously didn’t know any preacher’s kids growing up?

[Longhornstampede 3193]

3 hours ago, Sawbonz said:

 

Y’all seriously didn’t know any preacher’s kids growing up?

Sheeeeeeit... I fucked around with a few in my teens. I'm no idoit. I defiled (or was defiled by) the daughters of several of the leaders of Baptist churches in my hometown. The PK thing is just a joke. I think you need a calibration

[Braff Zacklin 13672]

 

On 10/26/2024 at 8:11 AM, Fudge Nuggets said:

On 10/25/2024 at 10:04 PM, Longhornstampede said:

Or Possum Kingdom?

Yeah... what about that?

He wants to show you his dark secret.

[Fudge Nuggets 19284]

On 10/26/2024 at 9:46 AM, Sawbonz said:

 

Y’all seriously didn’t know any preacher’s kids growing up?

I never heard them referred to as PK before.  We just talked like normal people and called them preacher kids.

[tx 3 putt 77960]

 

[tx 3 putt 77960]

old gateway seems to have a much bigger problem on their hands. also read their ex leader / head pedophile is asking for more settlement money …

 

 

 

[Newdoc 3465]

On 10/10/2024 at 4:02 PM, Brisketexan said:

It's fucking enraging, but....what about Christianity these days ISN'T?

Umm, Jesus?

[Newdoc 3465]

On 10/30/2024 at 12:17 PM, tx 3 putt said:

 

This guy might "accidentally" be left in gen pop with the guards having to attend to an "emergency" elsewhere.

[Brisketexan 105627]

25 minutes ago, Newdoc said:

Umm, Jesus?

You mean, the dude who has functionally NOTHING to do with American Christianity?  The dude who, if he appeared today, would be condemned as a dark-skinned middle eastern heretic libtard commie or somesuch by American Christianity?

Or do you mean THIS Jesus, who never existed until relatively recent revisionism?