Surly Boxing Thread

[Nivek 17330]

I want the time back they just stole from me
Booooooooooooooooring

Come on man, this was as predictable as all hell. I know howI feel in the AM and Tyson has a decade on me.

[wood 11747]

9 hours ago, futureman said:

canelo?  surely you mean another alvarez. 

No, I mean Canelo. Paul has called him out multiple times, but Alvarez isn't interested. I'd love to see it though, because if Paul did some of the shit he did last night against Old Mike, Alvarez would put him in the hospital.

[wood 11747]

1 hour ago, Sawbonz said:

Did Tyson ever throw a combo or follow up a solid connection? I know he tired out quickly but he either couldn’t or wouldn’t keep closing and rarely went to the body. The reach advantage hurt him. He used to handle that with lots of ducking and body blows but maybe that expends more energy than he has

 

 Or maybe they weren’t really trying

 

Yeah Tyson wasn't Tyson as we remember him, but I do believe that he still had enough in the early rounds to hurt Paul. He just didn't want to.

[futureman 22664]

3 hours ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

Tyson isn’t part of the GOAT conversation. He’s not even top 10 all-time heavyweight. 

Maybe based on career.  I think you’d have a hard time finding 10 guys who could beat Mike in his prime when he still had Cus. 

58 minutes ago, wood said:

No, I mean Canelo. Paul has called him out multiple times, but Alvarez isn't interested.

well no shit.  

[Bozo_Casanova 26773]

1 hour ago, futureman said:

Maybe based on career.  I think you’d have a hard time finding 10 guys who could beat Mike in his prime when he still had Cus. 

Yes based on career, but then you have to compare prime to prime. 

Tyson on his best day would struggle to beat on their best day:

-Ali

- Marciano

- Joe Louis 

- Jack Johnson

- Holyfield

- Jack Dempsey

- Larry Holmes

- Tim Witherspoon

- Lennox Lewis

- Joe Frazier

- Sonny Liston

Edited November 16 by Bozo_Casanova

[futureman 22664]

I think that’s awfully generous.  he had several years where he was almost unstoppable. 

[UTexasFight 9787]

Well done:

 

[ztejas 44114]

14 minutes ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

Yes based on career, but then you have to compare prime to prime. 

Tyson on his best day would struggle to beat on their best day:

-Ali

- Marciano

- Joe Louis 

- Jack Johnson

- Holyfield

- Jack Dempsey

- Larry Holmes

- Tim Witherspoon

- Lennox Lewis

- Joe Frazier

- Sonny Liston

 

8 minutes ago, futureman said:

I think that’s awfully generous.  he had several years where he was almost unstoppable. 

Yeah that's a fucking joke. Tyson at his best would wipe most of those guys. Especially all of the old-school white guys. Marciano would be dead.

[Bozo_Casanova 26773]

12 minutes ago, futureman said:

I think that’s awfully generous.  he had several years where he was almost unstoppable. 

Like the years where he was duckingTim Witherspoon and Holyfield because they were problematic matchups?

all the other guys had years where they were nearly unstoppable too.

[futureman 22664]

you’re entitled to your opinion but there’s a reason why prime mike tyson is a mythical figure. 

[Bozo_Casanova 26773]

14 minutes ago, ztejas said:

 

Yeah that's a fucking joke. Tyson at his best would wipe most of those guys. Especially all of the old-school white guys. Marciano would be dead.

No offense kid, but you need to watch a few thousand boxing matches cause you don’t know what you’re talking about.
 

Marciano is on the list because he’s the most like Tyson. The others are on the list because they have things in common that Tyson in his prime had a hard time with. If you think Larry Holmes in his prime would have “get wiped” by Mike Tyson, I’m gonna go ahead and guess that you have never actually watched a Holmes fight from his prime. Or the others. 

And those are just the heavyweights, and Charlie Burley, who you’ve never heard of, probably could have knocked out Tyson, and that’s giving up 60 pounds. But he could have gone the distance if not, because Tyson couldn’t hit him. 
 

Shit, I was being generous. Archie Moore probably could’ve beaten Mike Tyson.

Edited November 16 by Bozo_Casanova

[futureman 22664]

weak troll job tbh

[Bozo_Casanova 26773]

Styles make fights. Give me one person on that list that Tyson would be able to beat and why, and the closest opponent they faced to Tyson, and the closest opponent Tyson fought to that person.

Edited November 16 by Bozo_Casanova

[hpslugga 4096]

1 hour ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

Like the years where he was duckingTim Witherspoon and Holyfield because they were problematic matchups?

Well now you’re clearly not talking about 1986-1988 because Holyfield wasn’t a heavyweight by that time and Witherspoon was over 30 and his weaknesses were already exposed

[Bozo_Casanova 26773]

55 minutes ago, hpslugga said:

Well now you’re clearly not talking about 1986-1988 because Holyfield wasn’t a heavyweight by that time and Witherspoon was over 30 and his weaknesses were already exposed

I think we agree Tyson‘s peak was 86-89, and he was still capable of performing at that level in 90-91.

I happen to agree with those who believe that the Tyson team avoided a match with Holyfield in 89-90, in part because he was the #1 heavyweight contender basically the entire time while Tyson was dicking around with Frank Bruno and Carl Williams, before losing to Buster Douglas. And who beat Douglas after Tyson lost to him? Oh right, #1 contender Evander Holyfield (if i recall correctly).
 

As for Tim Witherspoon, it would have taken his best and they were stablemates on top of it,  but it’s widely understood that Don King didn’t want Tyson in the ring with Tim Witherspoon and put him up against Bonecrusher Smith instead.  In his prime Spoon would have been a very tough draw for Mike Tyson, hard to imagine he couldn’t have taken him the distance for all the same reasons Quick Tillis did. 

Edited November 16 by Bozo_Casanova

[Goofyboy 3428]

Watching some replays of the Tyson exhibition. Mike had MULTIPLE opportunities to hit Paul. There were some glaring points where he just didn’t pull the trigger. I really don’t think he was allowed to actually hit Paul. He got his paycheck.

[Laxtonto 13013]

 

[Bozo_Casanova 26773]

51 minutes ago, Goofyboy said:

Watching some replays of the Tyson exhibition. Mike had MULTIPLE opportunities to hit Paul. There were some glaring points where he just didn’t pull the trigger. I really don’t think he was allowed to actually hit Paul. He got his paycheck.

Ahem:

On 11/15/2024 at 10:13 AM, Bozo_Casanova said:

 Jake Paul will show Tyson a lot of openings and he *will* see them. That said, I’m not sure how much good the vision does him because he probably isn’t fast enough to take advantage, and his age is going to limit his effectiveness pretty severely after the first 2-3 rounds.

And that’s exactly what happened 

Edited November 16 by Bozo_Casanova

[speed817 19844]

[ztejas 44114]

5 hours ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

No offense kid, but you need to watch a few thousand boxing matches cause you don’t know what you’re talking about.
 

Marciano is on the list because he’s the most like Tyson. The others are on the list because they have things in common that Tyson in his prime had a hard time with. If you think Larry Holmes in his prime would have “get wiped” by Mike Tyson, I’m gonna go ahead and guess that you have never actually watched a Holmes fight from his prime. Or the others. 

And those are just the heavyweights, and Charlie Burley, who you’ve never heard of, probably could have knocked out Tyson, and that’s giving up 60 pounds. But he could have gone the distance if not, because Tyson couldn’t hit him. 
 

Shit, I was being generous. Archie Moore probably could’ve beaten Mike Tyson.

You're a fucking idiot. 

[ztejas 44114]

4 hours ago, hpslugga said:

Well now you’re clearly not talking about 1986-1988 because Holyfield wasn’t a heavyweight by that time and Witherspoon was over 30 and his weaknesses were already exposed

He pretty clearly doesn't know what he's talking about. I'm not a boxing fan in the least and I know that maybe no one touches prime Tyson. 

[futureman 22664]

oh come on he’s just doing a bit.  let him have his fun. 

[Bozo_Casanova 26773]

Shot:

20 minutes ago, ztejas said:

You're a fucking idiot. 

chaser:

18 minutes ago, ztejas said:

He pretty clearly doesn't know what he's talking about. I'm not a boxing fan in the least and I know that maybe no one touches prime Tyson

 

[Laxtonto 13013]

[LonghornJudas 1137]

OK, after watching the fight, I apologize. I let my wishes override the reality. This was a show and it was scripted. Mike had opportunity and could have hurt Paul multiple times and didn't. Fuck you, Mike, for selling out.

Edited November 17 by LonghornJudas

[Goofyboy 3428]

OK, after watching the fight, I apologize. I let my wishes override the reality. This was a show and it was scripted. Mike had opportunity and could have hurt Paul multiple times and didn't. Fuck you, Mike, for selling out.

He said in the interview after the fight he had bills to pay.

[BurntOrange&White 41646]

On 11/16/2024 at 1:32 PM, Bozo_Casanova said:

- Marciano

[Hook1997 5486]

Tyson looked totally different than in training. Sure seemed he had clear uppercuts a couple times and pulled them back, he was not swinging hard at all.  

[closetohumping 17776]

 

Beterbiev wants some

Edited November 18 by closetohumping

[G650 14421]

On 11/16/2024 at 9:05 PM, Bozo_Casanova said:

Shot:

chaser:

 

 

I see ztejas had his weekly pantsing in the boxing thread this time.

 

15 hours ago, LonghornJudas said:

This was a show and it was scripted.

I knew deep down going into this that it would be.

 

[Pam Cummings 9823]

There's a part of me that saw this get sanctioned and saw people betting on it that wants to call this outright fraud. Then there's another part of me that thinks anyone who didn't see this for what it was the entire time deserved their fleecing.

[Bozo_Casanova 26773]

On 11/16/2024 at 1:32 PM, Bozo_Casanova said:

Yes based on career, but then you have to compare prime to prime. 

Tyson on his best day would struggle to beat on their best day:

-Ali

- Marciano

- Joe Louis 

- Jack Johnson

- Holyfield

- Jack Dempsey

- Larry Holmes

- Tim Witherspoon

- Lennox Lewis

- Joe Frazier

- Sonny Liston

I was thinking about this all weekend, and I should have put George Foreman on the list, too. I didn't have him on there because I stopped at 10 and it was a spur of the moment thing, but the truth is that if I was ranking them from most to least likely to beat prime Tyson in Tyson's prime, Foreman would be near the top. 
We can take Jack Johnson off, since he's such a distant figure and there's so little film of him (and even less on his contemporaries) it's hard to think about a comparison in concrete terms. 

[Sawbonz 28081]

On 11/17/2024 at 5:18 PM, LonghornJudas said:

OK, after watching the fight, I apologize. I let my wishes override the reality. This was a show and it was scripted. Mike had opportunity and could have hurt Paul multiple times and didn't. Fuck you, Mike, for selling out.

The look on his face walking out to the ring kinda said it all. 

[closetohumping 17776]

Seeing some shit that maybe Tyson was pulling his punches.   Idk what to believe these days 

[Bozo_Casanova 26773]

2 minutes ago, closetohumping said:

Seeing some shit that maybe Tyson was pulling his punches.   Idk what to believe these days 

Let's examine the case:

Evidence cited
Tyson was much more aggressive in the first two rounds
Tyson did not slip punches he saw on them
Tysons punches seemed to lack power in the last 3/4 of the fight
Tyson did not react to obvious openings
Tyson did not slip punches he saw coming
Tyson biting glove

One possibility is that Mike Tyson participated in rigging the fight. The other possibility is that he's 58 years old, recently recovered from an ulcer, was wearing 14 oz gloves, a notorious biter, and can't do 8 full rounds of what they saw in training highlights used to hype the fight. 

[hpslugga 4096]

On 11/16/2024 at 4:27 PM, Bozo_Casanova said:

I happen to agree with those who believe that the Tyson team avoided a match with Holyfield in 89-90, in part because he was the #1 heavyweight contender basically the entire time while Tyson was dicking around with Frank Bruno and Carl Williams,

Except he wasn’t. Bruno was the number 1 contender for the WBC and WBA titles. The number 1 contender for the IBF? Yep, you guessed it: Carl Williams.

Holyfield only became the number one contender after (and because) Tyson got rid of them. It’s not like Holyfield instantly achieved that ranking when he moved up to the heavyweight division. It took some fights to earn that. But he was, nonetheless, going to get his shot at the title after the Tyson-Douglas fight. 

On 11/16/2024 at 4:27 PM, Bozo_Casanova said:

before losing to Buster Douglas. And who beat Douglas after Tyson lost to him? Oh right, #1 contender Evander Holyfield (if i recall correctly).

Holyfield was going to fight the champion regardless of who won in Tokyo and that’s kind of my point. If the Tyson-Douglas fight had any other referee counting Douglas when Tyson put him down and not taking 14 seconds to get to “9,” Tyson-Holyfield happens in 1990/1 and not 1996.

On 11/16/2024 at 4:27 PM, Bozo_Casanova said:

As for Tim Witherspoon, it would have taken his best and they were stablemates on top of it,  but it’s widely understood that Don King didn’t want Tyson in the ring with Tim Witherspoon and put him up against Bonecrusher Smith instead.  In his prime Spoon would have been a very tough draw for Mike Tyson, hard to imagine he couldn’t have taken him the distance for all the same reasons Quick Tillis did. 

This is just historic revisionism.

1. Again, Witherspoon was not in his prime during those years. He was (or was nearing, depending on the year) 30, he was an admitted mental basket case at that time, and his in-ring vulnerabilities were very visible.

2. In perfect abstraction, there’s no reason whatsoever to believe Mike would have had a minute’s worth of trouble against him. 

3. You’ve got to be kidding me with that line about Smith. James Smith had already smashed Witherspoon to take that WBA belt off of him via 3-KD’ing him in the first round, which is why Tyson fought Smith in the first place: because he was the WBA champion.

4. That’s to say nothing about the fact that this was all a part of what Don King himself literally orchestrated; the so-called Heavyweight World Series, which was specifically designed to culminate with an undisputed champion.

So as of December 1986, there’s Witherspoon with no belt, Smith with a belt, and Tyson with a belt. Any fool could see who Mike Tyson was going to fight after he bitchslapped Trevor Berbick, and it sure as shit wasn’t gonna be the guy who couldn’t survive James Smith for as long as Berbick “survived” Tyson. This was an elimination series, and Witherspoon was eliminated by Smith. Had Witherspoon won the Smith fight, he faces Tyson next.

And even if this wasn’t some part of a Don King extravaganza, there still would be no intelligent way to argue that Tyson was “ducking” anyone by trying to take another belt off someone else. What or who was anyone to say about it?

Tyson then went against Pinklon Thomas because Thomas was the number 1 contender for the WBC belt and the number 3 for the WBA, and also because Tony Tucker was to fight Buster Douglas for the vacant IBF title (vacant because Michael Spinks refused to fight Tucker and instead took the bigger payday of fighting Cooney)…on the same card, which effectively rendered that night to be a semifinal round on both sides of the ad hoc bracket with the two winners facing each other next. And again, as any fool could see, Mike’s most sensible next step was taking the IBF belt off Tony Tucker even if this wasn’t a part of a Don King extravaganza.

5. At that point (August of 1987), I would seriously encourage you to look at that roster of fucking bums Tim Witherspoon fought against. Again, he was nowhere near psychologically capable of handling a fight like Tyson in that period.

When Tim had his resurgence nearly a decade later? Sure, there’s an argument to be made for that, especially given the shit shape Tyson was in. This was all post-Douglas, post-divorce, post-dipshit Don King idiotically firing Kevin Rooney, and post-prison.

But 1987-1988? Man, kill that fuckin’ noise. Mike would have bulldozed him and it wouldn’t have meant dick to anyone for him to do it. There was no upside for Mike to take that fight, which is why he didn’t waste his time with it regardless of what Don King’s position on it was. And speaking of Tim Witherspoon and Don King, you’d do well to consider the possibility that the reason he didn’t book that fight in the aforementioned era was to protect Tim and not Mike.

From a pure boxing standpoint, the only booking decision that could have been deemed “questionable” when Tyson was the undisputed champ was Larry Holmes, but that was a grudge match (at least in Tyson’s mind) that had little to do with him and everything to do with revenge for Muhammad Ali; concept that was actually a hobby of Tyson’s in his earlier years.

[hpslugga 4096]

On 11/19/2024 at 1:23 PM, Bozo_Casanova said:

Let's examine the case:

Evidence cited
Tyson was much more aggressive in the first two rounds
Tyson did not slip punches he saw on them
Tysons punches seemed to lack power in the last 3/4 of the fight
Tyson did not react to obvious openings
Tyson did not slip punches he saw coming
Tyson biting glove

One possibility is that Mike Tyson participated in rigging the fight. The other possibility is that he's 58 years old, recently recovered from an ulcer, was wearing 14 oz gloves, a notorious biter, and can't do 8 full rounds of what they saw in training highlights used to hype the fight. 

Well again, Tyson had just been concussed 4 days prior to the fight. Also, those training highlights? Most of that really good shit was filmed pre-ulcer, pre-blood transfusions, pre-weight loss, and pre-concussion. You don’t see much after all that because honestly it was cringeworthy to see.

[closetohumping 17776]

On 11/19/2024 at 11:23 AM, Bozo_Casanova said:

Let's examine the case:

Evidence cited
Tyson was much more aggressive in the first two rounds
Tyson did not slip punches he saw on them
Tysons punches seemed to lack power in the last 3/4 of the fight
Tyson did not react to obvious openings
Tyson did not slip punches he saw coming
Tyson biting glove

One possibility is that Mike Tyson participated in rigging the fight. The other possibility is that he's 58 years old, recently recovered from an ulcer, was wearing 14 oz gloves, a notorious biter, and can't do 8 full rounds of what they saw in training highlights used to hype the fight. 

Or he likes money and knows this is an exhibition.  Winner isn’t fighting wilder or joshua.  

[Sawbonz 28081]

[Bozo_Casanova 26773]

19 hours ago, hpslugga said:

Except he wasn’t. Bruno was the number 1 contender for the WBC and WBA titles. The number 1 contender for the IBF? Yep, you guessed it: Carl Williams.

Holyfield only became the number one contender after (and because) Tyson got rid of them. It’s not like Holyfield instantly achieved that ranking when he moved up to the heavyweight division. It took some fights to earn that. But he was, nonetheless, going to get his shot at the title after the Tyson-Douglas fight. 

 

19 hours ago, hpslugga said:

Holyfield was going to fight the champion regardless of who won in Tokyo and that’s kind of my point. If the Tyson-Douglas fight had any other referee counting Douglas when Tyson put him down and not taking 14 seconds to get to “9,” Tyson-Holyfield happens in 1990/1 and not 1996.

And a good day to you too, sir:
First, as I think you know (or at least you should) that the rankings of the sanctioning bodies in that era essentially managed to fit the pleasure of the top promoters of the time. This is particularly true of Mike Tyson's promoter, Don King and then WBC President Jose Sulaiman, who was memorably described as Don King's "junior partner," and King had similar influence with the WBA and IBF, known then as the "Illicit Boxing Federation," where leadership basically sold rankings to competing promoters like the Duvas and others.
SO when I said that Holyfield was the #1 contender, I was referring to The Ring rankings of 1988 and 1989, where he was indeed the top-ranked fighter behind Tyson.
 

But that brings me to my core points, he was widely understood to have ducked Evander Holyfield from 88-90, and they probably ducked Witherspoon as well. to wit:

19 hours ago, hpslugga said:

1. Again, Witherspoon was not in his prime during those years. He was (or was nearing, depending on the year) 30, he was an admitted mental basket case at that time, and his in-ring vulnerabilities were very visible.

2. In perfect abstraction, there’s no reason whatsoever to believe Mike would have had a minute’s worth of trouble against him. 

3. You’ve got to be kidding me with that line about Smith. James Smith had already smashed Witherspoon to take that WBA belt off of him via 3-KD’ing him in the first round, which is why Tyson fought Smith in the first place: because he was the WBA champion.

4. That’s to say nothing about the fact that this was all a part of what Don King himself literally orchestrated; the so-called Heavyweight World Series, which was specifically designed to culminate with an undisputed champion.

1) First, Witherspoon was plenty salty at 30. 
2) Except styles make fights and Tyson struggled with guys like Tim Witherspoon
3) Bonecrusher Smith one of 3 very good fighters (along with Pinklon Thomas and Spoon) who matched up in interesting ways with each other, but I don't have to tell you that because styles make fights, the fact that he handled Tim Withersoon and Tyson handled him is not a reason to believe that Tyson would have handled Spoon. 
4) Yes, because Don King was seriously interested in producing an on-the-level tournament to produce a true and enduring champion. Forged, as it were, of a hotter fire.

 

20 hours ago, hpslugga said:

So as of December 1986, there’s Witherspoon with no belt, Smith with a belt, and Tyson with a belt. Any fool could see who Mike Tyson was going to fight after he bitchslapped Trevor Berbick, and it sure as shit wasn’t gonna be the guy who couldn’t survive James Smith for as long as Berbick “survived” Tyson. This was an elimination series, and Witherspoon was eliminated by Smith. Had Witherspoon won the Smith fight, he faces Tyson next.

And even if this wasn’t some part of a Don King extravaganza, there still would be no intelligent way to argue that Tyson was “ducking” anyone by trying to take another belt off someone else. What or who was anyone to say about it?

...

But 1987-1988? Man, kill that fuckin’ noise. Mike would have bulldozed him and it wouldn’t have meant dick to anyone for him to do it. There was no upside for Mike to take that fight, which is why he didn’t waste his time with it regardless of what Don King’s position on it was. And speaking of Tim Witherspoon and Don King, you’d do well to consider the possibility that the reason he didn’t book that fight in the aforementioned era was to protect Tim and not Mike.

First lets go back to the Ring rankings. There are two people in the top 10 the entire time from 1986-1991. One is Mike Tyson. The other is Tim Witherspoon who was also managed by Don King. That's not an accident.  Witherspoon (assuming he was motivated and in shape) would have frustrated Tyson in the extreme with his defense and jab, tied him up, leaned on him, and not allowed Tyson to step under his punches. At the very least they go the distance and it would have been ugly. And that's why their mutual promoter Don King didn't make the match. And by thw way - Mike Tyson wasn't making these decision, as I'm sure you know very well, and the idea that Don King was protecting any fighter, let alone Tim Witherspoon is nonsense. Don King protected Don King. His fighters were victims, not clients. 

[Bozo_Casanova 26773]

Adding- Mike Tyson fought every other person who appeared in the ring rankings (and several who didn’t) from 1986-89 other than Tim Witherspoon, Adilson Rodrigues (lost to foreman before his shot), Dokes (lost to Holyfield and cocaine), Damiani (turned the fight down), and Gary Mason.

Edited November 21 by Bozo_Casanova

[Bozo_Casanova 26773]

On 11/20/2024 at 3:26 PM, hpslugga said:

Well again, Tyson had just been concussed 4 days prior to the fight. Also, those training highlights? Most of that really good shit was filmed pre-ulcer, pre-blood transfusions, pre-weight loss, and pre-concussion. You don’t see much after all that because honestly it was cringeworthy to see.

Agree with this, but my thesis is that even without the ulcer or the concussion, his age was going to stop him. 

You know the game slaps? I used to be deadly at slaps. My hands were never especially fast even among amateur heavyweight boxers or even my own gym, but I did train on and off for a total of about 15 years, plus I can juggle,  which made my hands faster and reflexes sharper than like 95% of the population. Even in my early 40's I could bust basically anybody's ass at Slaps. I could even close my eyes after a couple of minutes and beat them because I'd have their movement pattern in my head.  Last year, at 50, one of my kid's friends heard me talking about slaps and wanted to play, and this kid just beat the shit out of my hands. I saw what he was doing and I knew what he was going to do before he did, but it just didn't matter because I wasn't fast enough anymore. 

All those videos where Tyson can clearly sees the punch coming and doesn't even attempt to slip, or just stares as Paul presents his chin are nothing more than an old man who has run out of gas. 

Edited November 21 by Bozo_Casanova

[Laxtonto 13013]

Here we go!

Emanuel Navarrete vs. Oscar Valdez

https://www.streameast.co/boxing/emanuel-navarrete-vs-oscar-valdez-1/

 

[PittsburghTiger 6318]

2 minutes ago, Laxtonto said:

Here we go!

Emanuel Navarrete vs. Oscar Valdez

https://www.streameast.co/boxing/emanuel-navarrete-vs-oscar-valdez-1/

 

Should be a dandy!

[Laxtonto 13013]

Love the lightweights because of the volume of punches

[Laxtonto 13013]

10-8 Navarette

[PittsburghTiger 6318]

Valdez had a couple of really nice shots to the body

[Laxtonto 13013]

Valdez having success over the top... Navarette caught him again

[PittsburghTiger 6318]

Throwing heavy punches

[Laxtonto 13013]

10-9 Navarette... But I could see Valdez there