How many of you carry ?

[Anastasis 23481]

This is how stupid this discussion gets. 

Current state: private transfers require no BG check, processing, or other defined paper work.

Gun owners on this site: We're open to BG checks on private transfers. The systems exist to do these things, we just have to make them accessible to the public. 

Very smart people: We don't want to subsidize your gun sales!

Gun owners on this site: You already pay for the entire system, it's just a captured system that only FFLs can use, but we can expand it to cover all transfers. I thought you guys were in favor of universal background checks?

Very smart people: thank you!

Bozo: Roadmaps!

 

 

[Herbie Hancock 7370]

Just survived a walk through my neighborhood.

Lucky us. Yay. Huzzah.

[closetohumping 17456]

37 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

This is how stupid this discussion gets. 

Current state: private transfers require no BG check, processing, or other defined paper work.

Gun owners on this site: We're open to BG checks on private transfers. The systems exist to do these things, we just have to make them accessible to the public. 

Very smart people: We don't want to subsidize your gun sales!

Gun owners on this site: You already pay for the entire system, it's just a captured system that only FFLs can use, but we can expand it to cover all transfers. I thought you guys were in favor of universal background checks?

Very smart people: thank you!

Bozo: Roadmaps!

 

 

I’m in favor of universal background checks.  I’m also in favor of gun owners to pay more.  You’re welcome for the subsidy 

[Anastasis 23481]

Just now, closetohumping said:

I’m in favor of universal background checks.  I’m also in favor of gun owners to pay more.  You’re welcome for the subsidy 

Roadmaps!

[Handcruser 2805]

I’m in favor of universal background checks.  I’m also in favor of gun owners to pay more.  You’re welcome for the subsidy 

Why do you want gun owners to pay for something that is free? It looks like what you say you want isn’t really what you want.

And we’ve completed the loop.

[bolverk 29708]

9 hours ago, Frank Drebin said:

I don't really want to go back 30 or 40 years ago.  Gun death rates in schools were significantly higher then.

There were fewer mass casualty "big events".  But a whole lot more smaller shootings that unless you lived nearby, you probably never heard about.

https://www.city-journal.org/school-shootings-horrific-but-statistically-rare

If you would like the real data on school shootings, here is a pretty good link.  The researcher also has updated stats if you want something more recent than the grapgs below.

https://news.northeastern.edu/2018/02/26/schools-are-still-one-of-the-safest-places-for-children-researcher-says/

 

9 hours ago, Foosters said:

Here you go Johnny

 

9 hours ago, Patricio Swayze said:

How dare you cal such a pious man of god out?! He is thinking about the children. His children.

 

8 hours ago, Frank Drebin said:

My stats are per capita, not raw numbers.  
 

 

It should be noted that Johnny has a tendency to be very selective in the data that he shows. For example, his above chart begins in a particularly high year and ends in 2014-2015, which was a not-so-terrible year, and conveniently omits the last few very terrible years.

Here's a link to current data and lots of good visualizations. https://k12ssdb.org/data-visualizations

The below chart is a screenshot from a Tableau chart that I'm unable to get a full screenshot of, but it's included in the link above. Notably, it's not only the mass shootings that have skyrocketed in recent years. 

 

And as for his excuse that his chart is adjusted for student population, I've gone ahead and calculated it on a per million basis using National Center for Education Statistics. That data can be found here. https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/current_tables.asp Click chapter 2 for enrollment by year.

Data:

	Public School Enrollment	Shoot Deaths	Deaths per MIllion
1980	40,877,481	7	0.17
1981	40,044,093	5	0.12
1982	39,565,610	5	0.13
1983	39,252,308	9	0.23
1984	39,208,252	6	0.15
1985	39,421,961	5	0.13
1986	39,753,172	8	0.20
1987	40,008,213	6	0.15
1988	40,188,690	12	0.30
1989	40,542,707	10	0.25
1990	41,216,683	5	0.12
1991	42,046,878	13	0.31
1992	42,815,541	18	0.42
1993	43,476,268	35	0.81
1994	44,034,416	19	0.43
1995	44,840,481	12	0.27
1996	45,611,046	18	0.39
1997	46,126,897	19	0.41
1998	46,538,585	17	0.37
1999	46,857,321	18	0.38
2000	47,203,539	11	0.23
2001	47,671,870	7	0.15
2002	48,183,086	4	0.08
2003	48,540,215	9	0.19
2004	48,795,465	7	0.14
2005	49,113,298	20	0.41
2006	49,315,842	18	0.36
2007	49,292,507	5	0.10
2008	49,265,572	11	0.22
2009	49,360,982	4	0.08
2010	49,484,181	5	0.10
2011	49,521,669	3	0.06
2012	49,651,900	34	0.68
2013	49,750,400	10	0.20
2014	49,751,300	16	0.32
2015	49,839,400	5	0.10
2016	50,615,000	5	0.10
2017	50,686,000	9	0.18
2018	50,694,000	52	1.03
2019	50,796,000	24	0.47
2020	51,165,200	25	0.49
2021	49,453,000	42	0.85
2022	49,935,000	60	1.20

[Anastasis 23481]

1 minute ago, Handcruser said:

Why do you want gun owners to pay for something that is free?

Because he doesn't really understand how any of this stuff actually works in the current state, and doesn't want to solve for the potential future state that he claims to want. His argument is precisely an example of what bozo said a few pages back wrt red flag laws.  And precisely why nothing will ever get done on the topic. People can't even find a way to agree on areas of agreement. 

[BearSchlong 8109]

Just survived a walk through my neighborhood.

That metal slide sure does cool off my balls. Thinking about heading to kitchen for another cup of sonic ice and water. That is if the dogs don’t eat me first.

Wish me luck.

Oh, and I never carry but I do keep my sig in the truck console vault that Sack recommended if I’m headed anywhere sketchy.

[Patricio Swayze 17058]

Cuidado con tu pinche verga güey.

[closetohumping 17456]

6 hours ago, Handcruser said:

Why do you want gun owners to pay for something that is free? It looks like what you say you want isn’t really what you want.

And we’ve completed the loop.

Because I’m what you would call one of them vengeful libs.  I’d love for fun owners to pay for it.  Maybe the government can use it to fund a decent cause

[BabaYaga 15304]

16 hours ago, aggie08 said:

What do you think this proves, exactly? So she chose the path of least resistance which, in this case, was shooting out the glass of a locked door at a different school. If that school also had a guard or two, do you think she gives up on her months long plan, or she takes an extra 5 minutes to find another door or window? How many security guards should each school have?

It proves what everyone is saying and you keep trying to strawman to shit.  That there were multiple targets and careful planning and premeditation.  In the face of two choices, she chose the one with less security.  Her words.  If you want to dig into the specific security measures at each school, fine, there's your baseline.  One was enough of a deterrent to stop a shooting and one was not.  Start there.

[BabaYaga 15304]

8 hours ago, Anastasis said:

Because he doesn't really understand how any of this stuff actually works in the current state, and doesn't want to solve for the potential future state that he claims to want. His argument is precisely an example of what bozo said a few pages back wrt red flag laws.  And precisely why nothing will ever get done on the topic. People can't even find a way to agree on areas of agreement. 

It fails when people flush out the details.  They hide behind platitudes and buzzwords like "common sense" and "everyone agrees".  Then the details come out.  A national registry is flushed out, and support crashes.  Red flag laws that have an opaque appeals process and little recourse for the accused.  For all the talk about spikes in gun sales, any guesses which segment saw a spike in their ownership numbers during covid?  All my friends/neighbors that before wanted nothing to do with guns.  Can I borrow a gun?  Where do I buy a gun?  Which gun do I get?  How do I use it?  What caliber do I need?  Questions myself and others that talk about it fielded over the last two years of Covid.  I personally helped three neighbors.  One from Austin.  One from Rhode Island.  And one originally from Jersey.  Took them to Scheels.  Took them to the Frisco Gun Range.  Trained with them.  Sat down over a beer and showed them how to clean it and reassemble each.  Of the three, six pistols and an AR.  

[BabaYaga 15304]

8 hours ago, closetohumping said:

I’m in favor of universal background checks

You're in favor of a national gun registry.  Be honest.  

[YGIFS 19452]

Why does it the word “national” always get conflated with the term “gun registry.”  Most, the overwhelming majority, of gun laws are set at the state/municipal level.  Several states already have lists of gun owners.  They absolutely know who most of us are.  You think it hadn’t occurred to them to aggregate their lists?  You fucking morons haven’t heard of sales tax?

[Bobby_Batronic 1994]

10 hours ago, YGIFS said:

I am doing my regular dad club Dropoff duty in the morning.  Ranges from crosswalks to helping prevent mass shootings.  I am so goddamn proud I can preserve your rights man.  You fucking child.  

“Muh Rights!!!” hasn’t been brought up in the discussion at any point. Keep trying to frame arguments for the others while deriding them. That’ll definitely bring people to the table for consensus. 

[BabaYaga 15304]

10 minutes ago, YGIFS said:

Why does it the word “national” always get conflated with the term “gun registry.”  Most, the overwhelming majority, of gun laws are set at the state/municipal level.  Several states already have lists of gun owners.  They absolutely know who most of us are.  You think it hadn’t occurred to them to aggregate their lists?  You fucking morons haven’t heard of sales tax?

If you have nothing to hide, what is there to fear.....

[Patricio Swayze 17058]

“Muh Rights!!!” hasn’t been brought up in the discussion at any point. Keep trying to frame arguments for the others while deriding them. That’ll definitely bring people to the table for consensus. 

Isn’t opposition to a registry a my rights argument?

[YGIFS 19452]

I don’t want consensus.  I want to keep my guns.  And I want to wind up stupid people up to shoot each other.  The civil war is coming but the belligerents aren’t who you think they are.  This upcoming self-inflicted slaughter is gonna be easier than covid.  

just stop and put politics aside and simply consider how much money you spend on constitutional amendments.  You think it’s a coincidence that the most easily monetized one is the one you most associate with freedom?  You think that happened by chance you fucking morons?  May I interest you in an extended warranty for your Bill of Rights?  It’s almost sinful how easy it is.  We sell you patriotism and 25,000 of you eat the product every year.  And you think it’s all just stats and chance.  

Edited March 31, 2023 by YGIFS

[BabaYaga 15304]

1 minute ago, YGIFS said:

I don’t want consensus.  I want to keep my guns.  And I want to wind up stupid people up to shoot each other.  The civil war is coming but the belligerents aren’t who you think they are.  This slaughter is gonna be easier than covid.  

There it is

[Bobby_Batronic 1994]

15 minutes ago, Patricio Swayze said:

Isn’t opposition to a registry a my rights argument?

Doesn’t everything kinda come down on one’s right to do something? In that sense yes. 

I don’t want to speak for others, but the abject abuse of any leeway given on the subject to the good people who directed the “for your safety” BS of the last few years is more than enough to be leery of how such a registry will be used. 

It’s ideal use would be one thing. It’s probable use would be quite another. 

[Patricio Swayze 17058]

Doesn’t everything kinda come down on one’s right to do something? In that sense yes. 
I don’t want to speak for others, but the abject abuse of any leeway given on the subject to the good people who directed the “for your safety” BS of the last few years is more than enough to be leery of how such a registry will be used. 
It’s ideal use would be one thing. It’s probable use would be quite another. 

Not saying you shouldn’t have an opinion. Just pointing out that”my rights” has in fact been brought many times.

[YGIFS 19452]

Many, many times.  
 

Sorry for ranting but it just fucking cracks me up that some of you think it’s never occurred to counties and states collecting sales tax on firearms to aggregate the information with one another.  Oh wait, lemme guess…you turned off the geolocation feature on your smart phone last time you entered a gun store, right?  And your bank or credit card company would never, ever be coerced into giving over your purchase history to the government?  
 

are you guys seriously this fucking stupid?  It’s not called a ‘National Gun Registry’ specifically because of your idiotic reaction.  There is, however, an amalgamated database of every legal gun transaction in the last 20 years.  

[Patricio Swayze 17058]

Folks need to stop quoting me, because the drunk deacon can see my posts. My send that snowflake over the edge.

[BabaYaga 15304]

8 minutes ago, YGIFS said:

Many, many times.  
 

Sorry for ranting but it just fucking cracks me up that some of you think it’s never occurred to counties and states collecting sales tax on firearms to aggregate the information with one another.  Oh wait, lemme guess…you turned off the geolocation feature on your smart phone last time you entered a gun store, right?  And your bank or credit card company would never, ever be coerced into giving over your purchase history to the government?  
 

are you guys seriously this fucking stupid?  It’s not called a ‘National Gun Registry’ specifically because of your idiotic reaction.  There is, however, an amalgamated database of every legal gun transaction in the last 20 years.  

Nobody knows how many guns I have in total.  Tell me why?  You can do it....

[YGIFS 19452]

You paid in cash I guess ?

[aggie08 21523]

1 hour ago, BabaYaga said:

It proves what everyone is saying and you keep trying to strawman to shit.  That there were multiple targets and careful planning and premeditation.  In the face of two choices, she chose the one with less security.  Her words.  If you want to dig into the specific security measures at each school, fine, there's your baseline.  One was enough of a deterrent to stop a shooting and one was not.  Start there.

I guess we'd all like to hear you guys define what "hardening schools" means. Because of the influx in mass shootings, almost all schools already have roving security guards or cops, locked doors and gates, locked classrooms while class is in session, teachers with radios assigned to patrol campus. As Parkland and Uvalde prove, it doesn't really do shit when someone pulls out an AR, as most people's immediate instinct--including cops with handguns--is self-preservation. But it is something.

So what further steps would you propose? Honestly asking. Give the cops on campus rifles or shotguns as a show of force? Reinforce or bar exterior windows? And is that where you'd like to send your kids to school? You know, since reasonable gun control is apparently a complete non-starter through no fault of your own.

49 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

There it is

Taking anything lobo says seriously is a choice, I guess.

Edited March 31, 2023 by aggie08

[Bobby_Batronic 1994]

13 minutes ago, Patricio Swayze said:

Not saying you shouldn’t have an opinion. Just pointing out that”my rights” has in fact been brought many times.

Not really, and here’s the rub. “My rights” implies one is worried about the violation of the 2A. It’s a valid concern, but the good folks who are on the opposite end of the spectrum would only use that for starters. As we just witnessed with other “rights” in a national emergency. 

Every common sense sounding suggestion is backended by unelected activists who have their own agenda quite separate from lawmaking or even reality. 

It’s the second part of what I suggested above. Neither side can talk, and one side completely distrusts the other. 

 

[BabaYaga 15304]

1 minute ago, aggie08 said:

I guess we'd all like to hear you guys define what "hardening schools" means. Because of the influx in mass shootings, almost all schools already have roving security guards or cops, locked doors and gates, locked classrooms while class is in session, teachers with radios assigned to patrol campus. As Parkland and Uvalde prove, it doesn't really do shit when someone pulls out an AR, as most people's immediate instinct--including cops with handguns--is self-preservation. But it is something.

So what further steps would you propose? Honestly asking. Give the cops on campus rifles or shotguns as a show of force? Reenforce or bar exterior windows? And is that where you'd like to send your kids to school? You know, since reasonable gun control is apparently a complete non-starter through no fault of your own.

Taking anything lobo says seriously is a choice, I guess.

I gave you my initial suggestion - you are more than able to do your research as to what steps one school took vs. the other

[Patricio Swayze 17058]

Not really, and here’s the rub. “My rights” implies one is worried about the violation of the 2A. It’s a valid concern, but the good folks who are on the opposite end of the spectrum would only use that for starters. As we just witnessed with other “rights” in a national emergency. 
Every common sense sounding suggestion is backended by unelected activists who have their own agenda quite separate from lawmaking or even reality. 
It’s the second part of what I suggested above. Neither side can talk, and one side completely distrusts the other. 
 

Is Bobby bitchtronic the new Ana. Christ man.

[aggie08 21523]

3 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

I gave you my initial suggestion - you are more than able to do your research as to what steps one school took vs. the other

Give it again, please. I have no desire to re-read this shit show of a thread.

[Frank Drebin 5649]

9 hours ago, bolverk said:

 

 

 

It should be noted that Johnny has a tendency to be very selective in the data that he shows. For example, his above chart begins in a particularly high year and ends in 2014-2015, which was a not-so-terrible year, and conveniently omits the last few very terrible years.

Here's a link to current data and lots of good visualizations. https://k12ssdb.org/data-visualizations

The below chart is a screenshot from a Tableau chart that I'm unable to get a full screenshot of, but it's included in the link above. Notably, it's not only the mass shootings that have skyrocketed in recent years. 

 

And as for his excuse that his chart is adjusted for student population, I've gone ahead and calculated it on a per million basis using National Center for Education Statistics. That data can be found here. https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/current_tables.asp Click chapter 2 for enrollment by year.

Data:

	Public School Enrollment	Shoot Deaths	Deaths per MIllion
1980	40,877,481	7	0.17
1981	40,044,093	5	0.12
1982	39,565,610	5	0.13
1983	39,252,308	9	0.23
1984	39,208,252	6	0.15
1985	39,421,961	5	0.13
1986	39,753,172	8	0.20
1987	40,008,213	6	0.15
1988	40,188,690	12	0.30
1989	40,542,707	10	0.25
1990	41,216,683	5	0.12
1991	42,046,878	13	0.31
1992	42,815,541	18	0.42
1993	43,476,268	35	0.81
1994	44,034,416	19	0.43
1995	44,840,481	12	0.27
1996	45,611,046	18	0.39
1997	46,126,897	19	0.41
1998	46,538,585	17	0.37
1999	46,857,321	18	0.38
2000	47,203,539	11	0.23
2001	47,671,870	7	0.15
2002	48,183,086	4	0.08
2003	48,540,215	9	0.19
2004	48,795,465	7	0.14
2005	49,113,298	20	0.41
2006	49,315,842	18	0.36
2007	49,292,507	5	0.10
2008	49,265,572	11	0.22
2009	49,360,982	4	0.08
2010	49,484,181	5	0.10
2011	49,521,669	3	0.06
2012	49,651,900	34	0.68
2013	49,750,400	10	0.20
2014	49,751,300	16	0.32
2015	49,839,400	5	0.10
2016	50,615,000	5	0.10
2017	50,686,000	9	0.18
2018	50,694,000	52	1.03
2019	50,796,000	24	0.47
2020	51,165,200	25	0.49
2021	49,453,000	42	0.85
2022	49,935,000	60	1.20

I actually appreciate this post and the data.

I was not cherry picking anything intentionally.  It's the data I could find from Dr. Fox, who has written articles on it.  I could not find the updated data and sincerely appreciate you posting it.

[aggie08 21523]

9 hours ago, bolverk said:

 

 

 

It should be noted that Johnny has a tendency to be very selective in the data that he shows. For example, his above chart begins in a particularly high year and ends in 2014-2015, which was a not-so-terrible year, and conveniently omits the last few very terrible years.

Here's a link to current data and lots of good visualizations. https://k12ssdb.org/data-visualizations

The below chart is a screenshot from a Tableau chart that I'm unable to get a full screenshot of, but it's included in the link above. Notably, it's not only the mass shootings that have skyrocketed in recent years. 

 

And as for his excuse that his chart is adjusted for student population, I've gone ahead and calculated it on a per million basis using National Center for Education Statistics. That data can be found here. https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/current_tables.asp Click chapter 2 for enrollment by year.

Data:

	Public School Enrollment	Shoot Deaths	Deaths per MIllion
1980	40,877,481	7	0.17
1981	40,044,093	5	0.12
1982	39,565,610	5	0.13
1983	39,252,308	9	0.23
1984	39,208,252	6	0.15
1985	39,421,961	5	0.13
1986	39,753,172	8	0.20
1987	40,008,213	6	0.15
1988	40,188,690	12	0.30
1989	40,542,707	10	0.25
1990	41,216,683	5	0.12
1991	42,046,878	13	0.31
1992	42,815,541	18	0.42
1993	43,476,268	35	0.81
1994	44,034,416	19	0.43
1995	44,840,481	12	0.27
1996	45,611,046	18	0.39
1997	46,126,897	19	0.41
1998	46,538,585	17	0.37
1999	46,857,321	18	0.38
2000	47,203,539	11	0.23
2001	47,671,870	7	0.15
2002	48,183,086	4	0.08
2003	48,540,215	9	0.19
2004	48,795,465	7	0.14
2005	49,113,298	20	0.41
2006	49,315,842	18	0.36
2007	49,292,507	5	0.10
2008	49,265,572	11	0.22
2009	49,360,982	4	0.08
2010	49,484,181	5	0.10
2011	49,521,669	3	0.06
2012	49,651,900	34	0.68
2013	49,750,400	10	0.20
2014	49,751,300	16	0.32
2015	49,839,400	5	0.10
2016	50,615,000	5	0.10
2017	50,686,000	9	0.18
2018	50,694,000	52	1.03
2019	50,796,000	24	0.47
2020	51,165,200	25	0.49
2021	49,453,000	42	0.85
2022	49,935,000	60	1.20

Ol' Johnny also implies the laughable assertion that the dead are the only victims of a mass shooting. Everything single person at these schools, physically wounded or not, is irreparably changed forever. Their childhoods are effectively over. Every day for the rest of their lives, they will hear the gunshots and the screams, picture the fear on their teachers' faces, and remember what it felt like dealing with imminent death at 9 years old. This is all before getting to the parents of the deceased that will never be whole again.

"Lighting strikes" as he so eloquently likes to compare the odds to, don't have quite the same collateral damage.

 

[aggie08 21523]

7 minutes ago, Frank Drebin said:

I was not cherry picking anything intentionally. 

Bullshit. Your old handle had your favorite charts locked and loaded for distribution whenever these discussions pop up in the wake of the latest mass shooting.

[Frank Drebin 5649]

1 minute ago, aggie08 said:

Bullshit. Your old handle had your favorite charts locked and loaded for distribution whenever these discussions pop up in the wake of the latest mass shooting.

Okay!

[SydneyCarton 48149]

Ah, I see we've got our first set of vague references to Covid and the "removal of freedoms" as an absolute projection to "See, the government really DOES want to curtail your rights and take everything away from you." Never mind that all of those "freedoms" that were taken away have been restored. I thought the government NEVER relinquished power and control once they had it?

Despite the fact we've been hearing since Clinton that the government is coming for our guns, and somehow there are more and more powerful guns than ever available to pretty much everyone. But no, because of a worldwide pandemic and the government asked you to wear a cloth over your face for a year and a half to help save lives, they're coming for your motherfucking guns!

[BabaYaga 15304]

5 minutes ago, SydneyCarton said:

and somehow there are more and more powerful guns than ever available to pretty much everyone.

Lol.  There have been semi-auto pistols and rifles in widespread circulation in the US since the end of WWII.  You used to be able to buy then in catalogues.  The only evolution you could make a case for what the Vtech shooter and the FN 5.7 pistols he used.  

[SydneyCarton 48149]

16 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

Lol.  There have been semi-auto pistols and rifles in widespread circulation in the US since the end of WWII.  You used to be able to buy then in catalogues.  The only evolution you could make a case for what the Vtech shooter and the FN 5.7 pistols he used.  

Wait, are you telling me that rifles and pistols we have today are the exact same as the ones that have been available since the end of WWII? There haven't been any technological advances or changes in things like muzzle speed, velocity, auto and semi-auto loading, clip capacity, firearm weight, hollow point bullets, etc? Or the ability to modify weapons with shit like bump stocks, etc? Just the same guns? Come the fuck on man. We all know that is absolutely not true.

Also, at the very least, there was a 10 year assault rifle ban for awhile there form '94 to 2004 or so, so uh, there has been at least some hiccup in availability. 

And for the record, I'm not anti-gun. I hunt a little but, not much. My father in law has a gun safe with about 30 various pistols and rifles. If someone wants to have a pistol or shotgun for home or mobile protection, whatever fine, I get that on some level. But I don't understand the AR shit at all, as it's not the most efficient weapon for hunting. When I hunt I take a bolt action rifle and about 3 rounds (granted I exclusively deer hunt, not familiar with duck or dove or any other kind of hunting). But AR's aren't in me experience the best for hunting, and I've never needed more than 2 bullets, so non bolt action or high capacity weapons just sort of have me scratching my head in regards to hunting, or generally anything. And what I really don't understand, if those are your interests in weapons, why the hang up about longer times to buy weapons, and thorough background checks? Hunting season is a few months a year, I can fucking plan ahead if I'm buying a new weapon and make sure I have it before I need it. And if my need is home protection, well, I lived ________ period of time without one before, I can probably suck it up for a few more weeks or months without one. The whole thing just fucking baffles me, I do not understand it. 
 

Edited March 31, 2023 by SydneyCarton

[closetohumping 17456]

3 minutes ago, SydneyCarton said:

Wait, are you telling me that rifles and pistols we have today are the exact same as the ones that have been available since the end of WWII? There haven't been any technological advances or changes in things like muzzle speed, velocity, auto and semi-auto loading, clip capacity, firearm weight, hollow point bullets, etc? Or the ability to modify weapons with shit like bump stocks, etc? Just the same guns? Come the fuck on man. We all know that is absolutely not true.

Also, at the very least, there was a 10 year assault rifle ban for awhile there form '94 to 2004 or so, so uh, there has been at least some hiccup in availability. 

 

 

Edited March 31, 2023 by closetohumping

[bolverk 29708]

13 minutes ago, aggie08 said:

Ol' Johnny also implies the laughable assertion that the dead are the only victims of a mass shooting. Everything single person at these schools, physically wounded or not, is irreparably changed forever. Their childhoods are effectively over. Every day for the rest of their lives, they will hear the gunshots and the screams, picture the fear on their teachers' faces, and remember what it felt like dealing with imminent death at 9 years old. This is all before getting to the parents of the deceased that will never be whole again.

"Lighting strikes" as he so eloquently likes to compare the odds to, don't have quite the same collateral damage.

 

Yeah, I'm not going to get into the gun debate. With both of my parents having now passed, I've inherited a couple of handguns, two rifles, and an antique double-barrel shotgun. Not sure what I'll do with all of them yet but have zero desire, intention, compulsion et cetera to carry any of them.

For my first and only post in this thread, I simply wanted to dispel any notion that the current situation with school shooting deaths, whether "mass" shootings or otherwise, isn't already terrible. We've got a problem, and the data speak for themselves.

And, in support of your statement that only counting the deaths diminishes the impact, I offer the following chart of wounded shooting victims from the data viz link I provided in that previous post. It shows that there's been a steady rise since 2012 (except for the year of Covid when kids were at home) and peaking last year at 205 wounded victims.

So far, we're *only* at 56 which would place it as the second highest to any year prior to 2017. I'm confident though that we'll top 1986 before the year is out.

[BabaYaga 15304]

Just now, SydneyCarton said:

Wait, are you telling me that rifles and pistols we have today are the exact same as the ones that have been available since the end of WWII? There haven't been any technological advances or changes in things like muzzle speed, velocity, auto and semi-auto loading, clip capacity, firearm weight, hollow point bullets, etc? Or the ability to modify weapons with shit like bump stocks, etc? Just the same guns? Come the fuck on man. We all know that is absolutely not true.

Also, at the very least, there was a 10 year assault rifle ban for awhile there form '94 to 2004 or so, so uh, there has been at least some hiccup in availability. 

 

Glad you're informed.  The .223 round was developed in 1957.  The first semi-auto was developed in 1905 and has changed little over the years.  They are gas operated.  Some shotguns are inertia driven.  Again, very old tech.  "Clip" capacity was around during WWII.  Hollow points go back to the civil war.  Bump stocks are just recoil firing, which has been around for decades.

All we've seen are cosmetic changes.  Wood relaced with metal and polymers.  So yes, weight, which has zero bearing outside a combat zone.  The ONLY real innovations have been optics and laser sights

[Frank Drebin 5649]

16 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

Lol.  There have been semi-auto pistols and rifles in widespread circulation in the US since the end of WWII.  You used to be able to buy then in catalogues.  The only evolution you could make a case for what the Vtech shooter and the FN 5.7 pistols he used.  

There are a lot more high capacity semi-auto rifles and pistols around than there was 30 years ago. Especially rifles.

You could always get them, even during the AWB you could buy a mini-14 with the standard thirty round mag because the law was written in such a stupid manor.  But not many people had them compared to now.  Now almost everyone I know has them.

I've hunted my whole life.  I see 100x the amount of sporting rifles as I did during the 80s.

I think the V Tech shooter used a 9mm.  The Fort Hood shooter used a 5.7.

[BabaYaga 15304]

 

1 minute ago, Frank Drebin said:

I think the V Tech shooter used a 9mm.  The Fort Hood shooter used a 5.7.

Correct, my mistake

[SydneyCarton 48149]

5 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

Glad you're informed.  The .223 round was developed in 1957.  The first semi-auto was developed in 1905 and has changed little over the years.  They are gas operated.  Some shotguns are inertia driven.  Again, very old tech.  "Clip" capacity was around during WWII.  Hollow points go back to the civil war.  Bump stocks are just recoil firing, which has been around for decades.

All we've seen are cosmetic changes.  Wood relaced with metal and polymers.  So yes, weight, which has zero bearing outside a combat zone.  The ONLY real innovations have been optics and laser sights

Oh, so you're telling me the weapons that we've given Urkraine fighters are basically the exact same as the Russian rifles we saw conscripts given with the iron crosses and everything, minus the rust. So at the unit solider level, they're basically equally equipped, huh?

 

Edit: Additionally, I suppose when you think about it the automobile is basically unchanged as well since the early part of the 1900's. They're still mostly gas operated internal combustion engines, with four wheels and a steering wheel, which was a huge upgrade from the stick! Sure, we use more plastics and less steel, so there's a weight component as well, but I mean the technology is basically the same. Fuel efficiency in the form of miles per gallon, top speeds, engine designs, I mean, sure there's some differences but it's basically the same!

Edited March 31, 2023 by SydneyCarton

[Handcruser 2805]

 
are you guys seriously this fucking stupid?  It’s not called a ‘National Gun Registry’ specifically because of your idiotic reaction.  There is, however, an amalgamated database of every legal gun transaction in the last 20 years.  

Actually, this would be a gigantic stretch given the terms you used. In fact, it would be incorrect.

[BabaYaga 15304]

Just now, SydneyCarton said:

Oh, so you're telling me the weapons that we've given Urkraine fighters are basically the exact same as the Russian rifles we saw conscripts given with the iron crosses and everything, minus the rest. So at the unit solider level, they're basically equally equipped, huh?

UA soldiers have AR's with optics so they can see what they are aiming at in low light situations.  

Many Conscripts are being given bolt-action rifles, so even you know the difference there.

If we are comparing the AR and the AK, Stoner and Kalashnikov designed their rifles post WWII.  Booth are gas operated.  One is polymer, one stamped metal and wood.  They differ in caliber.  Both can fit 20 or 30 round mags.  Both have iron sights.  The AK has a simpler manufacturing process and is more robust, but they operate the same.  

[Frank Drebin 5649]

3 minutes ago, SydneyCarton said:

Oh, so you're telling me the weapons that we've given Urkraine fighters are basically the exact same as the Russian rifles we saw conscripts given with the iron crosses and everything, minus the rust. So at the unit solider level, they're basically equally equipped, huh?

 

Edit: Additionally, I suppose when you think about it the automobile is basically unchanged as well since the early part of the 1900's. They're still mostly gas operated internal combustion engines, with four wheels and a steering while, which was a huge upgrade from the stick! Sure, we use more plastics and less steel, so there's a weight component as well, but I mean the technology is basically the same. 

You guys are kind of arguing past each other.

The tech has not changed much.

But the market has exploded with them.  Seeing an AR in the wild was relatively uncommon 20 years ago.  That is no longer the case.  They are everywhere now.  

 

[SydneyCarton 48149]

1 minute ago, BabaYaga said:

UA soldiers have AR's with optics so they can see what they are aiming at in low light situations.  

Many Conscripts are being given bolt-action rifles, so even you know the difference there.

If we are comparing the AR and the AK, Stoner and Kalashnikov designed their rifles post WWII.  Booth are gas operated.  One is polymer, one stamped metal and wood.  They differ in caliber.  Both can fit 20 or 30 round mags.  Both have iron sights.  The AK has a simpler manufacturing process and is more robust, but they operate the same.  

Wait now, you told me they were all basically the same weapons since WWII. Those don't sound like the same things at all. 

Listen dude, you're arguing disingenuously here over semantics and you know it. You're sitting here arguing calibers and how guns and rifles BASICALLY function the same as they have since WWII, but that's focusing on some trees and ignoring the forest. Fine, you're a gun guy. But if you were pressed into service, right now, something tells me that you'd much prefer all of the modern weaponry you could get your hand on, as opposed to weapons even from the Vietnam era. Why do you think that is?

[BabaYaga 15304]

If you want to quibble on gas operated semi-autos as you google furiously, there are gas pistons and direct impingement variations.  The DI again, goes back to 1957.  Piston even further.  1856 to be exact

[SydneyCarton 48149]

2 minutes ago, Frank Drebin said:

You guys are kind of arguing past each other.

The tech has not changed much.

But the market has exploded with them.  Seeing an AR in the wild was relatively uncommon 20 years ago.  That is no longer the case.  They are everywhere now.  

 

If you're telling me that there's a cultural shift that has proven problematic around firearms in the last 20-30 years, and much like the proliferation and popularity of social media or the Kardashians, well, I can certainly agree with you there, for sure. What has driven that change, do you think?

[Handcruser 2805]

Glad you're informed.  The .223 round was developed in 1957.  The first semi-auto was developed in 1905 and has changed little over the years.  They are gas operated.  Some shotguns are inertia driven.  Again, very old tech.  "Clip" capacity was around during WWII.  Hollow points go back to the civil war.  Bump stocks are just recoil firing, which has been around for decades.
All we've seen are cosmetic changes.  Wood relaced with metal and polymers.  So yes, weight, which has zero bearing outside a combat zone.  The ONLY real innovations have been optics and laser sights

This is pretty accurate.

There have been some advances in technology but mainly refinements.

Optics have improved a hundred fold.

Also, in regards to hunting - hogs in texas require a semi automatic platform - bolts just can’t handle the quantity in a sounder. That could be an M1 or an AR. M1 was produced in the late 30’s and is the same action as AR’s today. It shoots a much larger and faster bullet than many AR’s.

But then we get into the Ar15 vs Ar10 debate - and that’s not really applicable here.