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2023 Houston Astros Thread

Planet Houston

By Planet Houston
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henrygandorf
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FartingDreamer
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Am I the only one that can't stand the sight of Altuve, Bregman or Tucker?  Something about each one of them just pisses me off.  

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hornmpa96

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I would make that trade every time. The Big Unit made the Astros the best team in baseball that year who unfortunately ran into Kevin Brown. If a team is in its window to win and the trade significantly improves your opportunity to win it all, then do it.

Its the same reason I would be aggressive in trying to rent Shohei for the rest of this year.

Flags Fly Forever!

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Gourmand

Gourmand 7774

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3 minutes ago, hornmpa96 said:

I would make that trade every time. The Big Unit made the Astros the best team in baseball that year who unfortunately ran into Kevin Brown. If a team is in its window to win and the trade significantly improves your opportunity to win it all, then do it.

Its the same reason I would be aggressive in trying to rent Shohei for the rest of this year.

Flags Fly Forever!

Yeah I would too. That 1998 team was a juggernaut and fun as hell to watch in the second half of the season after the trade for the Big Unit. 

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tx 3 putt

tx 3 putt 76958

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51 minutes ago, hornmpa96 said:

I would make that trade every time. The Big Unit made the Astros the best team in baseball that year who unfortunately ran into Kevin Brown. If a team is in its window to win and the trade significantly improves your opportunity to win it all, then do it.

Its the same reason I would be aggressive in trying to rent Shohei for the rest of this year.

Flags Fly Forever!


we likely achieve the same results without him 

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Wulaw Horn

Wulaw Horn 19070

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44 minutes ago, Gourmand said:

Yeah I would too. That 1998 team was a juggernaut and fun as hell to watch in the second half of the season after the trade for the Big Unit. 

Me too.  Especially since the guys you gave away were good, not great.  The 58 war was a little misleading.  Halama had 2 decent first seasons and did nothing, Freddie Garcia was fine but not great and Guillen compliled a lot of stats over a long career but only the first 6 years should count:

6 years of club Control:

Halama:  4.8, 0.1, -0.9, 1.5 0.0  the 4.8 year he was 11-10 with a 4.22 era, 179 IP, 5.3 K/9 innings and a 118 era+  That's fine, but it wasn't like he was dominant, his fip was a little higher than his era, he didn't make an all star game or anything.  That was really the only year he was good.  in 2002 he was decent with a 119 ERA plus in 101 innings and a 6-5 record.

Garcia: 5.4, 1.7, 4.2, 2.0, 1.3, 3.2 played in 2 all star games. Finished 3rd in the cy young in 2001.  Probably hurt a fair bit as he had 4.2 WAR in 2001 where that could have been the difference in that series. In 2004 and 2005 when we were competing for WS titles he had 3.2 and 1.6 war.  Decent, but nothing special.  121 era plus in 2004 would have put him in a virtual tie for 3rd 4th, 5th on our starting staff with Wade Miller and Pettite behind rocket and oswalt.  The 116 the next year would have been pretty similar.  He'd have replaced Brandon Backe in the playoffs which would have been a bad thing in hindsight.  

Guillen:  0.5, -.2, 0.7, 3.3, 2.2, 2.5.  Starting level short stop the last 3 years with the mariners.  nothing special the first 3 years.  Never an all star during that time there.  

So, we lost out on 2 all star seasons during club control from Garcia, and one good year from Halama and 1 above average season as a starter from Guillen.  To make the team that close to a championship team I'd do that again.  

 

 

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UTexasFight

UTexasFight 9450

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1 hour ago, tx 3 putt said:

we gave up a lot for johnson, only to get mowed down by kevin brown ....

 

+1 for making that deal 100 out of 100 times

(even after putting aside the sentimental side of that probably being the best 2 month regular season stretch of watching the Astros in my life)

 

but I’d also be ok with not making a deal like that again this year. 
I feel like we’ve come out like bandits with the last two TOR SP deadline deals (JV, Grienke) and law of averages says we’re due to get burned 

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Macklemore

Macklemore 2872

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3 hours ago, Gourmand said:

Yeah I would too. That 1998 team was a juggernaut and fun as hell to watch in the second half of the season after the trade for the Big Unit. 

I went to every game he started at the Dome after the trade was made. There was a packed house for each one. It was an awesome time to be an Astros fan. Other than 2019, that was the most frustrating end to an Astros season.

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UTexasFight

UTexasFight 9450

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10 minutes ago, Macklemore said:

I went to every game he started at the Dome after the trade was made. There was a packed house for each one. It was an awesome time to be an Astros fan. Other than 2019, that was the most frustrating end to an Astros season.

I think it was worse because in 2019 we already had 2017 to comfort us (and didn’t yet have the scandal known)

and in ‘98, after getting swept by the Braves the year before , it was becoming clear we were never going to get over the hump with the core of that offense which was deflating in its own right because you knew Bagwell and Biggio were well on their way to HOF at that point 

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Snake Diggity

Snake Diggity 4624

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Part of the context for the Unit trade was that Houston’s farm was utterly stacked at the time.  Hidalgo, Elarton, Berkman, Miller, and Ward were all on the BA Top 100 in 1998.  So even though the Astros gave up a big haul for a rental pitcher, they had the farm to be able to do it without getting themselves into trouble long term.

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henrygandorf

henrygandorf 29191

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4 hours ago, Wulaw Horn said:

Me too.  Especially since the guys you gave away were good, not great.  The 58 war was a little misleading. 

yeah, the war argument in general is silly at best, stupid at worst.

we didn't trade 3 guys and then play 3 men short for the extent of their careers, we had other guys there.  so why wouldn't we compare war for those 3 vs randy's half season + two pitchers and an infielder that ended up playing for us for those seasons.  because that's the true comp.

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Dondrysdale1

Dondrysdale1 363

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5 hours ago, hornmpa96 said:

I would make that trade every time. The Big Unit made the Astros the best team in baseball that year who unfortunately ran into Kevin Brown. If a team is in its window to win and the trade significantly improves your opportunity to win it all, then do it.

Its the same reason I would be aggressive in trying to rent Shohei for the rest of this year.

Flags Fly Forever!

Brown killed us but not being able to hit Sterling Fucking Hitchcock is what lost that series.

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Wulaw Horn

Wulaw Horn 19070

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8 minutes ago, henrygandorf said:

yeah, the war argument in general is silly at best, stupid at worst.

we didn't trade 3 guys and then play 3 men short for the extent of their careers, we had other guys there.  so why wouldn't we compare war for those 3 vs randy's half season + two pitchers and an infielder that ended up playing for us for those seasons.  because that's the true comp.

That’s better for sure but that’s even simplistic because it ignores how those guys were filled in, how much we spent on filling those holes, and what the opportunity costs were for not dealing them elsewhere or spending the money we then had to spend to fill in elsewhere. 
I’m comfortable saying halama, who had one big WAR season and did that by being an Innings eater more than being truly elite wasn’t missed by us. SS wasn’t ever more than a 3 win player, those don’t typically decide the fates of championships. 
having another cy young caliber pitcher in 01 might have swung the race, and having an all star pitcher in 03 in a shorty ass division could have been the difference between making the playoffs and not. But, Johnson was fucking awesome and that’s not a big price to pay for the additional shot he gave us at winning it all. 
also, if we’d have garcia it’s possible we don’t go out and get petite and Clemens and that would have missed out on 2 really fun years as well, so who know. 

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henrygandorf

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6 minutes ago, Wulaw Horn said:

That’s better for sure but that’s even simplistic because it ignores how those guys were filled in, how much we spent on filling those holes, and what the opportunity costs were for not dealing them elsewhere or spending the money we then had to spend to fill in elsewhere. 
I’m comfortable saying halama, who had one big WAR season and did that by being an Innings eater more than being truly elite wasn’t missed by us. SS wasn’t ever more than a 3 win player, those don’t typically decide the fates of championships. 
having another cy young caliber pitcher in 01 might have swung the race, and having an all star pitcher in 03 in a shorty ass division could have been the difference between making the playoffs and not. But, Johnson was fucking awesome and that’s not a big price to pay for the additional shot he gave us at winning it all. 
also, if we’d have garcia it’s possible we don’t go out and get petite and Clemens and that would have missed out on 2 really fun years as well, so who know. 

aftermath analysis of those trades only swing hard in one direction for 2 reasons:

-the team who acquired the superstar won the world series (like verlander)

-one of the prospects is a fucking stud (like bagwell or yordan).

who's the best player we've given away in a deadline deal?  hader?  who am i missing?  off the top of my head it sure feels like there's 30 colin morans for every hader.

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Wulaw Horn

Wulaw Horn 19070

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1 hour ago, henrygandorf said:

aftermath analysis of those trades only swing hard in one direction for 2 reasons:

-the team who acquired the superstar won the world series (like verlander)

-one of the prospects is a fucking stud (like bagwell or yordan).

who's the best player we've given away in a deadline deal?  hader?  who am i missing?  off the top of my head it sure feels like there's 30 colin morans for every hader.

Yep. We’ve pumped out and given to the rest of MLB a bunch of decent players that can hold their own and man a position without sending out a ton of stars. Teoscar Hernandez was an all star once upon a time. Joe Musgrove pitched in at least one all star game and got a 100M contract, he might be the answer because he’s thrown so many more innings than Hader, but I’d probably say Hader hurt the most. 

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LCHorn

LCHorn 2620

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7 hours ago, tx 3 putt said:

we gave up a lot for johnson, only to get mowed down by kevin brown ....

 

The real problem was not re-signing him because that Arizona contract ended up a huge bargain.  One more reason to hate McLane.  

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Wulaw Horn

Wulaw Horn 19070

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713 in the 713 and it’s my birfday 0713. So, we celebrated by doing a podcast and preview of the second half. Talked about every FA pitcher and hitter last year that signed, how they did and what that should mean for the trade deadline. Give it a listen and tell me if you like it.

Spotify:
https://open.spotify.com/episode/42yGc7ZUwjm9o9LtISdS5H?si=URY1bD1dTD2ycXD68DA8ww

Apple:

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podca...n-astros-podcast/id1683955456?i=1000621026936
Amazon:

https://music.amazon.com/podcasts/8...f-preview?ref=dm_sh_be2wYzi2YWflmFBv1h8KQX1aS

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