Guilty Guilty Guilty Guilty Guilty Guilty Guilty Guilty Guilty Guilty Guilty Guilty Guilty Guilty Guilty Guilty Guilty Guilty Guilty Guilty Guilty Guilty Guilty Guilty Guilty Guilty Guilty Guilty Guilty Guilty Guilty Guilty Guilty Guilty

[Beau Vine 54,226]

[Biff Tannen 45,684]

4 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

The statute for "removal" of classified information is https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1924, which provides:

(a)

Whoever, being an officer, employee, contractor, or consultant of the United States, and, by virtue of his office, employment, position, or contract, becomes possessed of documents or materials containing classified information of the United States, knowingly removes such documents or materials without authority and with the intent to retain such documents or materials at an unauthorized location shall be fined under this title or imprisoned for not more than five years, or both.

 

I don't know the case law on this, nor can I recall the facts of being "advised that what he was doing was illegal."  I think that really pertains more to those are Presidential Records and there is no criminal offense for removing Presidential Records.

 

So, again, intent is going to be tough, possibly.  First, you'd have to show that he knew that there were classified documents among the dozens of boxes that he took and that he intended to remove those.  Then, there may be a bit of a bomb in the "with the intent to retain."  Certainly, subsequent events show an intent to retain, but he may have needed that intention at the time he took the documents, and that could be a toughie.

 

In a case where someone removes discrete classified documents, as by shoving them down their pants to take them out of the building and home, that intent is not so problematic.  It could be here.

 

 

 

Quote

Needed to add this part here:

 

So, again, intent is going to be tough, possibly.  First, you'd have to show that he knew that there were classified documents among the dozens of boxes that he took and that he intended to remove those.  Then, there may be a bit of a bomb in the "with the intent to retain."  Certainly, subsequent events show an intent to retain, but he may have needed that intention at the time he took the documents, and that could be a toughie.

 

In a case where someone removes discrete classified documents, as by shoving them down their pants to take them out of the building and home, that intent is not so problematic.  It could be here.

 

 

Do you ever want to stab yourself in the face after typing stuff like this?  I mean, I appreciate it, but I just can't imagine not wanting to stab myself in the face after typing something like this.  Just saying.

Edited July 29, 2023 by Biff Tannen

[tx 3 putt 76,957]

1 hour ago, Beau Vine said:

Speaking of stable and serious...

 

 

[Hookah Horns 3,083]

8 hours ago, BamaATL said:

 Is it possible that Trump has long been indicted under seal for the initial theft, say all the way back in March or April?  The reason it hasn't been unsealed is because they wanted anything to do with Meadows sealed until the Jan 6th indictment? 

 

No. 

[TwiceHorn 31,470]

6 hours ago, Biff Tannen said:

 

 

 

Do you ever want to stab yourself in the face after typing stuff like this?  I mean, I appreciate it, but I just can't imagine not wanting to stab myself in the face after typing something like this.  Just saying.

It's why lawdogs get paid the big bucks.  All in the game yo.

[RomaVicta 29,907]

16 hours ago, safe sex said:

You say that, but this is the Mar-a-Lago IT administrator we're talking about...

My understanding is that he had an impressive resume from his job as a waiter.

[GhostOfTomJoad 9,324]

My understanding is that he had an impressive resume from his job as a waiter.

More likely he worked the ball collector at the driving range and one day dotard saw him jiggle the handle just right so the dispenser took the token and gave him an extra jumbo bucket instead of the small. Trump immediately identified him as a technical genius and voila, he put him in charge of IT.

[hpslugga 4,058]

46 minutes ago, GhostOfTomJoad said:

1 hour ago, RomaVicta said:

My understanding is that he had an impressive resume from his job as a waiter.

More likely he worked the ball collector at the driving range and one day dotard saw him jiggle the handle just right so the dispenser took the token and gave him an extra jumbo bucket instead of the small. Trump immediately identified him as a technical genius and voila, he put him in charge of IT.

That has to be the most accurate assumption of a Trump scenario anyone’s ever posted here.

[miguelito 11,266]

right out of central casting

[Beau Vine 54,226]

I would have gone with The Clash's I Fought the Law.

Edited July 29, 2023 by Beau Vine

[tchookem 3,900]

I would have gone with The Clash's I Fought the Law.

Looking at that audience...

[tx 3 putt 76,957]

So this IT person is going to sing like a bird to save his ass ?

Then team trump will just sit there in court and say him, along with everyone else is lying ?

[PenelopeWitherspoon 19,101]

15 hours ago, tx 3 putt said:

Bold strategy …

 

Blast from the past Jenna is responding to this nut job.

 

Also, WTF.

 

And yeah, she is a fucking moron.

 

 

Edited July 29, 2023 by PenelopeWitherspoon

[Post Oak 20,213]

I'm afraid to ask but AR-15 laser dots on infants

 

[Gatorubet 30,238]

16 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

The statute for "removal" of classified information is https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1924, which provides:

(a)

Whoever, being an officer, employee, contractor, or consultant of the United States, and, by virtue of his office, employment, position, or contract, becomes possessed of documents or materials containing classified information of the United States, knowingly removes such documents or materials without authority and with the intent to retain such documents or materials at an unauthorized location shall be fined under this title or imprisoned for not more than five years, or both.

 

Then, there may be a bit of a bomb in the "with the intent to retain."  Certainly, subsequent events show an intent to retain, but he may have needed that intention at the time he took the documents, and that could be a toughie.

I would bet my very last dollar that in every administration, as it is about to be succeeded by another administration, that there are numerous civil service wonks from the various agencies handling classified records who instruct the soon-to-be prior officeholder and his staff about the proper retention procedures.   What is unique about Trump is that he has no interest in listening to or following any direction that doesn’t mesh with his interests or wants.  

And I would also be stunned if Donnie did not have a hand in going through “his boxes” to some extent before he left office.  And really, when Jack has recorded video of Trump saying ‘they are all mine, and the FBI should give them back, because I have every right to keep them’ - then we know they were classified, we know he knows they were classified (because they were taken away because they were classified), and yet he still maintains a right to keep them at an unauthorized unsecure location for his own ends. 

I think that sufficient direct and circumstantial evidence exists to maintain a conviction if the jury thinks he knew what they were and took them anyway.

I don’t think it will be a challenge to show that: 1)when a person hid the boxes from the feds; 2) hid them from his own lawyer; 3)and later tried to wipe the server with video of his myrmidons hiding the boxes…..that person always knew that they were classified, and went to great lengths to keep them, including the obstruction of their return.

Finally, you could argue lack of intent if the documents were some lower level classified docs that got mixed in with other records, or there was it just one or two docs. When you have over 100 records, including some of the most sensitive classified material that country possesses, I think that goes toward proving intent as well.  

Honestly, I am not worried about the conviction. I am more worried about checking all the boxes of the elements of the crime at the appellate level.

[Gatorubet 30,238]

15 hours ago, atomheartbevo said:

 

Lin Woods partner.  Who knew he could be cuckoo for Cocoa puffs?

[Gatorubet 30,238]

32 minutes ago, Post Oak said:

I'm afraid to ask but AR-15 laser dots on infants

 

The agents were just trying to play with the kids’ cat. 

[The Dog 44,051]

 

[The Dog 44,051]

HERE COMES FANI

 

[Longhorn_Fan68 33,870]

[Sawbonz 27,561]

2 hours ago, Post Oak said:

I'm afraid to ask but AR-15 laser dots on infants

 

Do the infants even notice

[Biff Tannen 45,684]

3 hours ago, Post Oak said:

I'm afraid to ask but AR-15 laser dots on infants

 

Something qanon related I'm sure

[Hermanator 7,050]

2 hours ago, Post Oak said:

I'm afraid to ask but AR-15 laser dots on infants

 

He's still mad about Elian Gonzalez or Waco or both 

[Radical Larry 28,609]

30 minutes ago, The Dog said:

HERE COMES FANI

 

Caps lock is cruise control for guilty as fuck.

 

[atomheartbevo 89,665]

3 hours ago, Post Oak said:

I'm afraid to ask but AR-15 laser dots on infants

30 minutes ago, Biff Tannen said:

Something qanon related I'm sure

I think it’s projection of some kind.  Every accusation is a confession. 

[Brandywine 1,316]

On 7/28/2023 at 2:44 PM, tx 3 putt said:

👀👀👀

 

Maybe those are his collection of Playboy, Hustler and Penthouse. 

[atomheartbevo 89,665]

6 minutes ago, Brandywine said:

Maybe those are his collection of Playboy, Hustler and Penthouse. 

Are you talking about the boxes on the left…

[TexasEd 8,067]

24 minutes ago, Brandywine said:

Maybe those are his collection of Playboy, Hustler and Penthouse. 

That’s why he put them in the bathroom

Edited July 29, 2023 by TexasEd

[TwiceHorn 31,470]

3 hours ago, Gatorubet said:

I would bet my very last dollar that in every administration, as it is about to be succeeded by another administration, that there are numerous civil service wonks from the various agencies handling classified records who instruct the soon-to-be prior officeholder and his staff about the proper retention procedures.   What is unique about Trump is that he has no interest in listening to or following any direction that doesn’t mesh with his interests or wants.  

And I would also be stunned if Donnie did not have a hand in going through “his boxes” to some extent before he left office.  And really, when Jack has recorded video of Trump saying ‘they are all mine, and the FBI should give them back, because I have every right to keep them’ - then we know they were classified, we know he knows they were classified (because they were taken away because they were classified), and yet he still maintains a right to keep them at an unauthorized unsecure location for his own ends. 

I think that sufficient direct and circumstantial evidence exists to maintain a conviction if the jury thinks he knew what they were and took them anyway.

I don’t think it will be a challenge to show that: 1)when a person hid the boxes from the feds; 2) hid them from his own lawyer; 3)and later tried to wipe the server with video of his myrmidons hiding the boxes…..that person always knew that they were classified, and went to great lengths to keep them, including the obstruction of their return.

Finally, you could argue lack of intent if the documents were some lower level classified docs that got mixed in with other records, or there was it just one or two docs. When you have over 100 records, including some of the most sensitive classified material that country possesses, I think that goes toward proving intent as well.  

Honestly, I am not worried about the conviction. I am more worried about checking all the boxes of the elements of the crime at the appellate level.

You realize that I was addressing a hypothetical indictment for removal of classified information, not the existing case.

The removal case also has the disadvantage of being a five-year felony, but would also seem to be venued in DC.  In any event, I'm guessing it's proof of intent problems that keep them from bringing that case.  He removed entire boxes, not individual documents, and it's a guess, but I'd imagine that the statute has been interpreted to mean present knowledge of specific classified documents and a then-existing intention to retain them in an insecure location.  So that means he could confess to subsequent discovery and intentional retention at a later time and probably avoid conviction.

[BamaATL 16,593]

27 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

You realize that I was addressing a hypothetical indictment for removal of classified information, not the existing case.

The removal case also has the disadvantage of being a five-year felony, but would also seem to be venued in DC.  In any event, I'm guessing it's proof of intent problems that keep them from bringing that case.  He removed entire boxes, not individual documents, and it's a guess, but I'd imagine that the statute has been interpreted to mean present knowledge of specific classified documents and a then-existing intention to retain them in an insecure location.  So that means he could confess to subsequent discovery and intentional retention at a later time and probably avoid conviction.

I suppose the trick with that sort of case, which is entirely hypothetical would be that you would have to prove that not only did he take the stuff (he obviously did), but you would also have to prove he knew it was illegal to do so (a bit tougher, and not legally clear on how to prove intent), and you would have to prove that he took very specific things with full knowledge as to what they were and that again it was specifically illegal.   As I understand it, as a stand alone it would be difficult to meet the "criminal mindset" portion as it applies to law.

What I was hoping for, and perhaps it was too much, was that we would see an easy and quick open and shut case that was completely stand alone, with no real reason for much of a delay due to discovery, etc.  The reason I am hoping for something like that is because it will get the public quickly accustomed to hearing guilty verdicts on this asshole, and the quicker he is convicted the sooner he moves the next stage of sentencing (how that plays out, I don't know, but I do want to see him found guilty, a lot).  

All that having been said, I'd much rather they get it right than indict on something that is questionable leading to the public losing faith or questioning his guilt or innocence.  Basically, I hope the prosecutors across the board get an average 98%.  While all of us follow this stuff closely, the general public does not, and what we can ill afford is confusion by any mixed verdicts or acquittals.  A few charges here and there on his now 70 plus felony counts are ok, but not very many.  People are idiots, but when you win a football game 70-2, it's pretty obvious who the better team is; this is sort of akin to that.  

[Biff Tannen 45,684]

2 hours ago, BamaATL said:

All that having been said, I'd much rather they get it right than indict on something that is questionable leading to the public losing faith or questioning his guilt or innocence.  Basically, I hope the prosecutors across the board get an average 98%.  While all of us follow this stuff closely, the general public does not, and what we can ill afford is confusion by any mixed verdicts or acquittals.  A few charges here and there on his now 70 plus felony counts are ok, but not very many.  People are idiots, but when you win a football game 70-2, it's pretty obvious who the better team is; this is sort of akin to that.  

Him being 1-79 or whatever it is so far hasn't seemed to have swayed many people on the right.

Edited July 29, 2023 by Biff Tannen

[TwiceHorn 31,470]

1 hour ago, BamaATL said:

I suppose the trick with that sort of case, which is entirely hypothetical would be that you would have to prove that not only did he take the stuff (he obviously did), but you would also have to prove he knew it was illegal to do so (a bit tougher, and not legally clear on how to prove intent), and you would have to prove that he took very specific things with full knowledge as to what they were and that again it was specifically illegal.   As I understand it, as a stand alone it would be difficult to meet the "criminal mindset" portion as it applies to law.

What I was hoping for, and perhaps it was too much, was that we would see an easy and quick open and shut case that was completely stand alone, with no real reason for much of a delay due to discovery, etc.  The reason I am hoping for something like that is because it will get the public quickly accustomed to hearing guilty verdicts on this asshole, and the quicker he is convicted the sooner he moves the next stage of sentencing (how that plays out, I don't know, but I do want to see him found guilty, a lot).  

All that having been said, I'd much rather they get it right than indict on something that is questionable leading to the public losing faith or questioning his guilt or innocence.  Basically, I hope the prosecutors across the board get an average 98%.  While all of us follow this stuff closely, the general public does not, and what we can ill afford is confusion by any mixed verdicts or acquittals.  A few charges here and there on his now 70 plus felony counts are ok, but not very many.  People are idiots, but when you win a football game 70-2, it's pretty obvious who the better team is; this is sort of akin to that.  

Yeah and, as usual, it's a bit more complicated than it looks.  One reason I dug into it is that 793 and the related provisions of the "Espionage Act" (an historical misnomer really), don't seem to proscribe "removal," just retention and communicating to a foreign entity, among other things.  So I had to root around for 1924.  And then, as with all of this stuff, you have to look pretty hard at what the intent requirements are.

Pretty obviously, Smith does not intend to rely on completely circumstantial evidence to prove Trump's intent.  And that requires beating the bushes, talking to a lot of people, and that is what generates discovery from the government:  the subpoenas, search warrants, and interview recordings and transcripts of people that didn't have anything incriminating to say.  And even though that stuff is not incriminating and can therefore apparently be ignored by the defense, that's not really the case.  A competent defense team has to sort through all that chaff looking for things that may be exculpatory.

And, yeah, although Biff is right also, I'd rather have DOJ batting 1.000 on this stuff than slinging half-ass indictments to see if anything sticks.   The public has lost some confidence in DOJ/FBI and that's completely fair, although not for the reasons the GQP cites and I think this needs to be done pretty impeccably.

Edited July 29, 2023 by TwiceHorn

[Grade of D as in David 13,253]

26 minutes ago, Biff Tannen said:

Him being 1-79 or whatever it is so far hasn't seemed to have swayed many people on the right.

Nope they're still out here talking shit like Johnny Jolly

[Gil Bang 25,957]

12 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

It's why lawdogs get paid the big bucks.  All in the game yo.

 

[The Dog 44,051]

 

[NAVY 6,740]

6 minutes ago, The Dog said:

 

And he doesn’t pay most of his vendors and lawyers. Very grift-y. In my opinion 

[BamaATL 16,593]

10 minutes ago, NAVY said:

And he doesn’t pay most of his vendors and lawyers. Very grift-y. In my opinion 

Well, it's never too early to start saving for your canteen money.  

[TwiceHorn 31,470]

23 minutes ago, NAVY said:

And he doesn’t pay most of his vendors and lawyers. Very grift-y. In my opinion 

I think that's another new feature for Trump.  He's paying a lot of other people's legal bills, as well as his own, and the stakes are too high for him to stiff them.  And it's not his money.

[conVINCEd 21,469]

14 minutes ago, BamaATL said:

Well, it's never too early to start saving for your canteen money.  

Can @YGIFSchime in and explain it to me like I’m 5 how we put money in prisoners accounts in exchange for beating up people we don’t like.  Asking for a friend.

[YGIFS 19,450]

I'm sorry, I wouldn't know anything about that.  

I have heard that inmates don't want anything linking them to any kind of incentive prior to---should they be caught red-handed---any kind of violent act.  So you don't just wire money directly from yourself to the inmate's canteen account.  What you start out by doing is psychological tormenting.  Have folks walk by them in the mess or common areas or outside and make random comments to let the inmate know their identity is known, as well as some bits of personal information (home address, family members, etc.).  Used to be much harder, had to mail money orders to be written out again and mailed from different states, to the inmate who is helping you's family/loved ones.  They'd then clear it for cash, deposit it on a Friday payday like anything else looking like tips or whatever (few grand here and there).  You can do it now much easier via fintech/digital payment platforms.  Key is to get it two degrees from separation.  Yeah, each person takes a few hundred for their trouble but a substantial amount finds its way into the inmate's canteen account.  Eventually, you give them enough---they can't spend it if they tried so they ask you just give it over to their mom/partner/kid/et. al.  That's when it gets even easier.  The real tricky part though is when you want to get salty.  There's different language and payment levels, but if you want---the idea is to have somebody beat into the infirmary.  Get released and beat back into it.  This makes the assailants vulnerable though to getting caught or squealed upon.  So it comes with a hefty price tag.  But every single wing in a federal prison has a guy who knows how to get this done for the right price.  But to an earlier point, psychological torture is usually more effective and less costly for you and less risky for the other inmates involved.  And it can go on long after the prisoner is released.  To this day, some Cholas still roll up on Jenna Ryan in DFW and remind her she's being watched.  

There are obviously more nuanced steps to all this that I won't lay out here.  And I'm guessing there's a few guys on here that know even more than I do.  But my experience set is this---my father and uncles paid for decades to have the son-in-law of Sam Giancana protected from prison harassment because of his help with trucking unions.  Jimmy D., we'll call him.  And that was no easy task in the 80's & 90's.  I had an uncle who was doing a stretch in serious, serious federal institutions---Marion and Thomson in Illinois.  Two places that make Alcatraz look like an all-inclusive beach resort.  And we ran circles to make sure he was okay in his old age and released early to die in peace at home.  Between those two growing lessons and an intimate knowledge of political banking, I found out rather easily you can really, really, really fuck with bad people while making another inmate's family's life a little easier since he's in there for some over-hyped bullshit charges anyway and deserves a break.  

Trump will never see the inside of a prison.  I promise you that with all my heart and soul.  But I also promise you that multiple people in his inner circle will go to prison.  And one of them will commit suicide, legit suicide, not prison bullshit framing.  And it will serve as a message to the rest of them.  Abandon all hope, ye who enter here.  

[Francisco 2.0 32,392]

 

 

 

[Beau Vine 54,226]

TMML..

https://twitter.com/JonMichael_AF/status/1685467070778294272

 

Edited July 30, 2023 by Beau Vine

[Neonmoon 38,129]

Do you think anyone in Trump’s cult gives a fuck he’s grifting them? They’re the problem, not him. 

[Francisco 2.0 32,392]

2 minutes ago, Neonmoon said:

Do you think anyone in Trump’s cult gives a fuck he’s grifting them? They’re the problem, not him. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[troph 24,796]

These are the same people who gave to these grifter… 

[Brisketexan 105,139]

Wait….lawyers are getting paid millions?
I LOVE stories with a happy ending!

[BamaATL 16,593]

Just now, Brisketexan said:

Wait….lawyers are getting paid millions?
I LOVE stories with a happy ending!

It's a trickle down economic theory.  I've heard lawyers are absolute shit with money.  

[Brisketexan 105,139]

It's a trickle down economic theory.  I've heard lawyers are absolute shit with money.  

We’re definitely shit without it.

[atomheartbevo 89,665]

3 hours ago, NAVY said:

And he doesn’t pay most of his vendors and lawyers. Very grift-y. In my opinion 

3 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

I think that's another new feature for Trump.  He's paying a lot of other people's legal bills, as well as his own, and the stakes are too high for him to stiff them.  And it's not his money.

Yeah, if he's paying, then shit has gotten real for him. He can't afford to have lawyers bailing on him at this point.

[Degenerate Gardner 4,085]

2 hours ago, Francisco 2.0 said:

 

 

 

Grandma MAGA didn’t become Grandma MAGA by making rational observations about the world around her.