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[dcbc 14484]

5 minutes ago, conVINCEd said:

Then go get him.

Didn't you watch The Dukes of Hazard?  The cops can't pursue you  across the county line in Georgia.

Edited August 15, 2023 by dcbc

[Beau Vine 54226]

14 minutes ago, dcbc said:

I'm more curious about what federal statute they're going to say covers his actions.  It's going to be some general presidential shit.  Because how Georgia runs its elections is a matter of state law.  And let's not forget that 2021 letter sent long after he was out of office when he no longer was a federal official.  I don't see a clear path to success with this motion.  But they'll try, if only to delay and perpetuate the notion that he's not being treated fairly.

This.  One of the indictments is for a crime he committed on 9/17/21.  Even if he successfully argued that it should be moved because he was acting as a federal official, that couldn't apply to that indictment.  So, could they move some of the charges to federal court, but leave that one in Georgia?

[dcbc 14484]

3 minutes ago, The Dog said:

He's surrendered  in all the other cases. Why wouldn't he now?

The perp walk?  The mug shot?  The rules in Georgia where pretrial release isn't the default and the burden of proving you aren't likely to engage in witness tampering?  I don't know, I just have a hunch he's not going to be as cooperative here.

[Bullneck 19089]

1 hour ago, tx ind said:

this sums it up

 

"Move Kash Patel to CIA Acting."  

Sounds like a great plan.

[dcbc 14484]

3 minutes ago, Beau Vine said:

This.  One of the indictments is for a crime he committed on 9/17/21.  Even if he successfully argued that it should be moved because he was acting as a federal official, that couldn't apply to that indictment.  So, could they move some of the charges to federal court, but leave that one in Georgia?

Well, it's a RICO predicate, of which they have to prove two.  I don't think he succeeds because he wasn't acting under a federal statute, but if it gets removed, I'm thinking the whole thing gets removed.  But I think this argument is a dog, top to bottom.

[Pig Bellmont 8718]

2 minutes ago, Beau Vine said:

This.  One of the indictments is for a crime he committed on 9/17/21.  Even if he successfully argued that it should be moved because he was acting as a federal official, that couldn't apply to that indictment.  So, could they move some of the charges to federal court, but leave that one in Georgia?

This is just an intellectual exercise or a hypothetical. Any attempts to remove to federal court will fail. 

[TwiceHorn 31470]

30 minutes ago, dcbc said:

I'm more curious about what federal statute they're going to say covers his actions.  It's going to be some general presidential shit.  Because how Georgia runs its elections is a matter of state law.  And let's not forget that 2021 letter sent long after he was out of office when he no longer was a federal official.  I don't see a clear path to success with this motion.  But they'll try, if only to delay and perpetuate the notion that he's not being treated fairly.

Well it's not a "federal question" that allows removal, it's the whole nexus to a federal official carrying out federal duties.

And, it's not expressed in the statute, but one of the key issues or factors seems to be does federal law provide a defense, which actually tends to be irrelevant in analyzing federal question jurisdiction, whether original or on removal.

In Manhattan, Trump alleged that being in office during part of it and exercizing his presidential duties provided immunity.  Hellerstein said no go.  He also alleged  federal preemption of the election code violation, but Hellerstein also said no go because he wouldn't actually be convicted of the federal offense and federal lawmaking in the area doesn't preempt NY election or falsifying documents laws.

I think all he'd have here is the preemption thing, which gets circular with was he a federal officer executing federal duties.

Edited August 15, 2023 by TwiceHorn

[Surly Bevo 24908]

The notion of a President having a "federal duty" to get elected President again is very troublesome to me.  Pretty sure that isn't enumerated anywhere.  I'm sure they will cloak it in "trying to make sure the election is fairly conducted etc" but c'mon man

[TwiceHorn 31470]

8 minutes ago, Beau Vine said:

This.  One of the indictments is for a crime he committed on 9/17/21.  Even if he successfully argued that it should be moved because he was acting as a federal official, that couldn't apply to that indictment.  So, could they move some of the charges to federal court, but leave that one in Georgia?

Yeah, that's a good point.  Don't know.  In civil cases, there's this thing called "pendent jurisdiction" that allows all of the related claims to be brought to federal court as long as one of them raises a federal question.

This isn't quite like that, and I don't think there's pendent jurisdiction in criminal cases.

[Js1 85335]

2 minutes ago, Surly Bevo said:

The notion of a President having a "federal duty" to get elected President again is very troublesome to me

Yeah, that's gross if it sets a precedent. These were all done in his capacity as a candidate for POTUS. There has to be separation.

Making sure the election was conducted "fairly" is a DOJ matter, not a POTUS matter.  Or should be. 

[dcbc 14484]

2 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

Well it's not a "federal question" that allows removal, it's the whole nexus to a federal official carrying out federal duties.

And, it's not expressed in the statute, but one of the key issues or factors seems to be does federal law provide a defense, which actually tends to be irrelevant in analyzing federal question jurisdiction, whether original or on removal.

In Manhattan, Trump alleged that being in office during part of it and exercizing his presidential duties provided immunity.  Hellerstein said no go.  He also alleged that federal preemption of the election code violation, but Hellerstein also said no go.

I think all he'd have here is the preemption thing, which gets circular with was he a federal officer executing federal duties.

I understand your point, but I just don't see the nexus between his general federal duties and Georgia's conducting its elections.  When he makes perfect phone call and writes perfect letter and sends attorneys to gather fake electors, he's not operating under the color of any law (he's acting outside the law from start to finish---as opposed to Brisket's example of the cop who kills the suspect) and has no duty as President to oversee the State of Georgia in its conducting an election, which wholly is a matter of state law insofar as its tabulation of results goes.  

 

I think this is useful to CNN in that it gives them something to pontificate about.  And that's fine here, too.  But I think it's going to be an unsuccessful argument.

[Ghost of LL 15531]

4 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

Yeah, that's a good point.  Don't know.  In civil cases, there's this thing called "pendent jurisdiction" that allows all of the related claims to be brought to federal court as long as one of them raises a federal question.

This isn't quite like that, and I don't think there's pendent jurisdiction in criminal cases.

Judge Yeakel approves of your use of the term “pendent jurisdiction” rather than “supplemental” jurisdiction.

[tx 3 putt 76956]

20 minutes ago, conVINCEd said:

Then go get him.

desantis campaign is doa, does meatball surround trump land with his state guard to protect trump and win over Maga ?

 

😂😂😂😂

Edited August 15, 2023 by tx 3 putt

[dcbc 14484]

13 minutes ago, Surly Bevo said:

The notion of a President having a "federal duty" to get elected President again is very troublesome to me.  Pretty sure that isn't enumerated anywhere.  I'm sure they will cloak it in "trying to make sure the election is fairly conducted etc" but c'mon man

But the conduct of Georgia's part of the Presidential election isn't a matter of federal law.  100% state law issue as far as how the votes are calculated.  And I'm unaware of any federal law that gives the President oversight.

 

This was purely self-dealing by a lame-duck President who was willing to do anything to stay in power.  The argument for removal to federal court is a long-shot delay tactic.  

Edited August 15, 2023 by dcbc

[Js1 85335]

1 minute ago, tx 3 putt said:

desantis is campaign is doa, does meatball surround trump land with his state guard to protect trump and win over Maga ?

[Macanudo 12978]

1 minute ago, dcbc said:

But the conduct of Georgia's part of the Presidential election isn't a matter of federal law.  100% state law issue as far as how the votes are calculated.

States rights only matter when MAGA thinks they matter.

[C-Man 27225]

37 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

Yeah, that's the weird thing.  It would be tried in federal court with a federal judge, but presumably by the state prosecutors.

It would remain a violation and conviction under Georgia law, but entered by a federal court.

Pardonable by the President under federal law?  Who fucking knows, doesn't seem like it.

Yes, David Schoen said Fani would likely "follow" the case and handle the prosecution with her team since they did all the investigating.

[conVINCEd 21469]

1 minute ago, tx 3 putt said:

desantis is campaign is doa, does meatball surround trump land with his state guard to protect trump and win over Maga ?

You don’t tell them you’re coming.  If I kill my next door neighbor the cops don’t call and politely ask me to be at home tomorrow afternoon so they can arrest me.  They kick in the fucking door at 4:00 a.m., drag me out of bed, and take me to jail.

[Brisketexan 105139]

27 minutes ago, conVINCEd said:

Then go get him.

Is there a part of me that would like to see a raging gun battle as arresting forces show up at MAL, and Dotard's private security detail resists, and his SS detail has to figure out what to do, protect Dotard from flying lead or assist with the lawful arrest process.  And by part of me, I mean 100% of me.

[Doc Sam Beckett 5793]

52 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

I swear to God we're talking right past each other.  I was trying to ask if serving a 2 year term of a 5 year sentence would imply that the person was paroled at two years.  I never, ever said it was probation -- you did.

I give up.

Dammit Jimmy, the indictment's commenced! Get to posting shit that makes sense, or get away! 

[linux 1660]

26 minutes ago, Pig Bellmont said:

I hope we also see his tiny fingerprints 

We know the size of his hands though

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/aug/03/donald-trump-hand-display-madame-tussaud-wax-museum#:~:text=Using a measuring apparatus%2C the,hand size of 7.44 inches.

 

Using a measuring apparatus, the Reporter found the hand to be a mere 7.25 inches – compared to the average male hand size of 7.44 inches.

[bolverk 29672]

29 minutes ago, Biff Tannen said:

There's a Hillary thread somewhere around here, FIND IT

Please redirect all Hillary-related content to this thread and try to engage with the few assholes who kept it running and still somehow remain unashamedly active on Surly. Shove Donald's shitty diaper in their face just as they forced celebrating his failed, traitorous presidency into ours.

[tx 3 putt 76956]

8 minutes ago, conVINCEd said:

You don’t tell them you’re coming.  If I kill my next door neighbor the cops don’t call and politely ask me to be at home tomorrow afternoon so they can arrest me.  They kick in the fucking door at 4:00 a.m., drag me out of bed, and take me to jail.

that’s an oddly specific example 🤔🤔🤔

[conVINCEd 21469]

Just now, tx 3 putt said:

that’s an oddly specific example 🤔🤔🤔

His dogs shit in my yard a lot and I was fortunate to get a sympathetic jury.

[TwiceHorn 31470]

16 minutes ago, dcbc said:

But the conduct of Georgia's part of the Presidential election isn't a matter of federal law.  100% state law issue as far as how the votes are calculated.  And I'm unaware of any federal law that gives the President oversight.

 

This was purely self-dealing by a lame-duck President who was willing to do anything to stay in power.  The argument for removal to federal court is a long-shot delay tactic.  

The good news is, unlike civil removal, the state court does not lose jurisdiction pending remand.

[cactusflinthead 27598]

 

[The Dog 44051]

 

Edited August 15, 2023 by The Dog
cactus beat me to the other one so here's this

[Gatorubet 30238]

36 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

Yeah, that's the weird thing.  It would be tried in federal court with a federal judge, but presumably by the state prosecutors.

It would remain a violation and conviction under Georgia law, but entered by a federal court.

Pardonable by the President under federal law?  Who fucking knows, doesn't seem like it.

§ 1442. Federal officers or agencies sued or prosecuted

(a) A civil action or criminal prosecution that is commenced in a State court and that is against or directed to any of the following may be removed by them to the district court of the United States for the district and division embracing the place wherein it is pending:

(1) The United States or any agency thereof or any officer (or any person acting under that officer) of the United States or of any agency thereof, in an official or individual capacity, for or relating to any act under color of such office or on account of any right, title or authority claimed under any Act of Congress for the apprehension or punishment of criminals or the collection of the revenue. under color of office or in performance of his duties. 

 

Blurbs from cases say the Federal officer removal statute is not narrow or limited and, at very least, it is broad enough to cover all cases where federal officers can raise colorable defense arising out of their duty to enforce federal law. One of the most important reasons for federal officer removal statute is to have validity of defense of official immunity tried in federal court. The test for removal should be broader, not narrower, than the test for official immunity. 

I imagine they will claim that among the duties of a president is to ensure that elections are fair - and so the allegations (at least prior to him leaving office) pertain to a legitimate federal interest while he was acting under color of law. Who knows? 

 

[BamaATL 16593]

And so it begins, your new voice for the Republican Party is emerging, Brian Kemp.  Don't be fooled, he's a dangerous right wing lunatic in his own right, who will push insane backwards legislation.  He is not a moderate of any type, and just because someone does something right once in their life doesn't mean it indicates anything beyond that.  

[gernblansten 3197]

1 hour ago, Pancho said:

[Brisketexan 105139]

29 minutes ago, Macanudo said:

States rights only matter when MAGA thinks they matter.

You remember when you called me not long after the 2016 election, and asked me why I thought things were so bad?

You thought (not unreasonably) that I was overstating the negatives.

Turns out we were both wrong, and I was WAY understating them at that time.

What a fucking timeline.

[bolverk 29672]

11 minutes ago, The Dog said:

 

 

As a reminder, #6 PHIL WALDRON is the guy who owns this place out in Dripping Springs: https://osdtx.com/about-us/

https://www.reuters.com/world/us/us-house-jan-6-probe-subpoenas-trump-adviser-who-reportedly-prepared-powerpoint-2021-12-16/

 

 

[Upgrayedd 5812]

27 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Is there a part of me that would like to see a raging gun battle as arresting forces show up at MAL, and Dotard's private security detail resists, and his SS detail has to figure out what to do, protect Dotard from flying lead or assist with the lawful arrest process.  And by part of me, I mean 100% of me.

[Js1 85335]

2 minutes ago, Upgrayedd said:

Can you imagine, a world where this actually happened?

[Rimbo 25933]

1 hour ago, G650 said:

 

I think this will partially come to pass, but I was pondering it last night. There will always be an opposition party, I think in it's current form the GOP is untenable, but it won't take a lot of movement for them to course correct, even after all this nonsense the past decade. Guys like Youngkin will carry it forward.

I don't think that's going to happen.

The GOP is going to fall. It wouldn't be the first time in American History that a political party fell apart. It's basically going to become like other minor parties.

THEN, the Democrats will split. You'll have the more conservative, call it "Clintonite" wing, and then the more socialist wing.

That's my prediction.

[locodos 5387]

56 minutes ago, dcbc said:

Didn't you watch The Dukes of Hazard?  The cops can't pursue you  across the county line in Georgia.

Counterpoint:  There isn't a car made that could fly Trump across all those broken? bridges.

Trump feels like more of a Boss Hog type character to Rudy's Enis

[BamaATL 16593]

1 minute ago, locodos said:

Counterpoint:  There isn't a car made that could fly Trump across all those broken? bridges.

Trump feels like more of a Boss Hog type character to Rudy's Enis

When I think of Trump crossing a river with a broken bridge, Snake River Canyon comes to mind.  I just hope the outcome is even worse.  

[Bozo_Casanova 26459]

6 minutes ago, Rimbo said:

I don't think that's going to happen.

The GOP is going to fall. It wouldn't be the first time in American History that a political party fell apart. It's basically going to become like other minor parties.

THEN, the Democrats will split. You'll have the more conservative, call it "Clintonite" wing, and then the more socialist wing.

That's my prediction.

Does this happen before or after a Civil War?

[Homercles 10205]

1 hour ago, TwiceHorn said:

Eh.  Maybe.

I don't doubt they'll try it.  To remove successfully, you have to allege and prove that the criminal conduct at issue was committed by a federal officer in furtherance of his duties as a federal officer.  And one of the more important aspects of that is that federal law provides a defense, like immunity or some such.

He tried it with the Manhattan case and failed at the trial court level but is appealing.  

This one is slightly better positioned because almost all of the conduct complained of occurred while he was in office, as opposed to the Manhattan case, where most of it didn't.

But there's also this concept of the "outer perimeter" of presidential duties, and the judge found that "paying porn stars hush money," however you want to characterize it, fell outside of that outer perimeter.

It is a little bit closer question whether "talking about an election" falls within or without that outer perimeter.

 

Needs more Latin 

[Gatorubet 30238]

4 minutes ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

Does this happen before or after a Civil War?

The smart money looks for the first signs.  Like a bloody caning in the Senate. 

[locodos 5387]

8 minutes ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

Does this happen before or after a Civil War?

I'm just looking forward to the documentary...

Chapter 5:  Second Battle of The Waffle House

Ken Burns:

" Dear Karen,

Although the fighting, modeling of plus sized tactical gear, and memeing reached levels not before seen anywhere except the hallowed grounds of Ft. Walmart, the Waffle House stood fast and continued to serve breakfast although with a reduced menu..."

/scene

 

Edited August 15, 2023 by locodos

[tx ind 7013]

43 minutes ago, linux said:

We know the size of his hands though

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/aug/03/donald-trump-hand-display-madame-tussaud-wax-museum#:~:text=Using a measuring apparatus%2C the,hand size of 7.44 inches.

 

Using a measuring apparatus, the Reporter found the hand to be a mere 7.25 inches – compared to the average male hand size of 7.44 inches.

bwhahahahaha, who the fuck sends pictures of their hands to someone?

"The controversy over the size of Trump’s hands dates back to the 1980s, when journalist Graydon Carter referred to the billionaire as a “short-fingered vulgarian” in Spy magazine. In 2015 Carter revealed that Trump has been sporadically sending him pictures of his hands for the last 25 years, insisting they are not as small as Carter made out."

[Gatorubet 30238]

How many calls did Trump get today from people saying, “Pay my legal bills or I’ll flip and tell the truth!” 

[TexLonghorn 5667]

Let's go live to Rush Limbaugh to see what he thinks of the new charges...

Hmmm...  no comment.  Though he does look a little pissed.

[Homercles 10205]

49 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Is there a part of me that would like to see a raging gun battle as arresting forces show up at MAL, and Dotard's private security detail resists, and his SS detail has to figure out what to do, protect Dotard from flying lead or assist with the lawful arrest process.  And by part of me, I mean 100% of me.

Trumps personal defense weapon

[wildcat09 29354]

22 minutes ago, Rimbo said:

I don't think that's going to happen.

The GOP is going to fall. It wouldn't be the first time in American History that a political party fell apart. It's basically going to become like other minor parties.

THEN, the Democrats will split. You'll have the more conservative, call it "Clintonite" wing, and then the more socialist wing.

That's my prediction.

This sort of shit is so funny. Everyone saw them try a coup when they lost and they retook the House two years later. The GOP will be fine.

[Snake Diggity 4624]

3 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

I mean.....this.

I want y'all to imagine that you had a working time machine.  You use it to go back 20 years, back when W was president.  And you sit down with a group of your peers, and tell them EXACTLY what is going to happen from 2015 (real kickoff of Trump's campaign) to present.  All of it.  The birther roots of the movement, the weird meetings and ties with Russians and shit.  The 2016 election.  All the batshittery of the Trump presidency (his praise of Putin, meeting in Helsinki, the relentless cascade of easily proven lies, using his family as gov't officials, all that shit).  The pandemic, and how the POTUS reacted.  Then the 2020 election and the insanity that followed, including the violent coup attempt.  The involvement of fucking Kanye.  The devolution of Rudy.

Your friends would have you involuntarily committed because you are CLEARLY COMPLETELY INSANE.  Yet every word you said is 100% true.

Our historical truth over the last 10 years or so is much, much more deranged than any fiction.  And it continues.

There is a material chance of one or more of the following things in the next 18 months:

1) a former POTUS is convicted and imprisoned for serious crimes, and not incidental shit (like he ripped off a business partner), but crimes committed in connection with and in furtherance of his thirst for absolute power.  This, and this alone makes this a wackadoo timeline.  But wait, there's MORE.....

2) a violent terrorist attack on one or more courthouses, prisons, and/or judicial or law enforcement officials involved with these prosecutions and/or imprisonment.

3) one of our two major parties nominates a convicted felon for POTUS (convicted on one or more of the charges in item 1 above).

4) that convicted felon WINS THE FUCKING PRESIDENCY.

5) another violent terrorist attack on some apparatus of federal power (the Capitol, the White House, something) by outraged cultists demanding that their king be released from prison to reign forever.

There's not just a "non-zero" chance of those things.  Item 1 seems more likely than not.  Items 2 and 3 are also more likely than not (shit, item 3 is a stone-cold lock....the only question is whether he's actually convicted of something by then).  4 and 5 are somewhat less likely, but they're above 5-10%.

I'm a student of politics and history.  If you'd told me this shit 20 years ago, I'd never speak to you again, because you are clearly dangerously deranged.  And yet you are reciting actual history that actually happened.  What a fucking timeline.

Handicapping the odds:

1a.) Trump gets convicted 60%*
1b.) Trump gets imprisoned 2%
2.) Terrorists attack govt buildings 90%
3.) Trump gets the GOP nom 80%
4.) Trump wins the ‘24 presidential election 35%

5.) Terrorists attack to get Trump out of prison <1%
 

*60% includes plea deal to admit guilt but avoid prison/jail time.

[Kyrie Eleison 9312]

1 hour ago, cactusflinthead said:

[Gatorubet 30238]

If they do manage to remove the thing to federal court, and Fani is not able to get it remanded, it will be interesting to see who gets assigned the case.

There are four Senior Status Active Judges in the Northern District of Georgia - one appointed by Obama, and three by Clinton. But I don’t think a Senior Status Judge would get the case. 

Of the remaining District Court Judges, four were appointed by Obama , four were appointed by Trump, two by Biden - and one by GW Bush.  

Only one of the four Trump judges appears to be a nutter. Another dismissed a Trump supporter’s 2020 election suit, and found for black voters in an election discrimination suit, and another received unanimous consent at his nomination.   Not bad, really. 

[Rimbo 25933]

1 hour ago, Macanudo said:

States rights only matter when MAGA thinks they matter.

It always has, going all the way back to slavery.