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[SydneyCarton 48,134]

2 minutes ago, The Original Greaser Bob said:

We have an unprecedented ability to get accurate information from various media and non-media sources.  We just have to be vigilant and critical in how we process that information.

The blame lies with the voter.  Not 100%, but so much so that nothing else matters.

That's democracy's fatal flaw.

The left is banking on it working, the right is committed to finding an alternative.

I get this point, and somewhat agree to it. But we used to have guardrails to help the voter stay informed. So there is shit that can be done. But we set it on fire for corporate and personal profit. 

[BehoId, The Underminer! 11,669]

28 minutes ago, Captainant said:

In our modern media landscape, truth can always be defeated by a firehose of falsehoods. 

i started to read hamilton's reynold's pamphlet the other day and saw this in the intro.  the more things change, the more they stay the same.

 

Lies often detected and refuted are still revived and repeated, in the hope that the refutation may have been forgotten or that the frequency and boldness of accusation may supply the place of truth and proof. 

 

 

[RomaVicta 29,949]

 

I fully expect to have an order from a judge within the next months:

Judge Impotent expands the restraining order In Endless Trump Case #6 to include directly ordering the public to kill court officials, attorneys, clerks, family pets, and jurors. This follows the firebomb attack on a dog house in the yard of a jury foreperson. Police have started what will be an interminable investigation of whether the firebomb, which included an asbestos note saying "Trump ordered me to do this," is related to the attack. 

The burning dog asked, "why is this fuckwad not in jail awaiting the results of the trial?" Newspeople huffed about decorum and ex-president precedents, and lawyers debated the definition of firebomb.

[tbone_ 14,134]

That's democracy's fatal flaw.

Democracy’s fatal flaw is that everyone who can fog a mirror gets the same vote.

Technology has laid this flaw bare.

[tx 3 putt 77,235]

4 minutes ago, RomaVicta said:

 

I fully expect to have an order from a judge within the next months:

Judge Impotent expands the restraining order In Endless Trump Case #6 to include directly ordering the public to kill court officials, attorneys, clerks, family pets, and jurors. This follows the firebomb attack on a dog house in the yard of a jury foreperson. Police have started what will be an interminable investigation of whether the firebomb, which included an asbestos note saying "Trump ordered me to do this," is related to the attack. 

The burning dog asked, "why is this fuckwad not in jail awaiting the results of the trial?" Newspeople huffed about decorum and ex-president precedents, and lawyers debated the definition of firebomb.

 

 

[The Original Greaser Bob 2,844]

22 minutes ago, SydneyCarton said:

But we used to have guardrails to help the voter stay informed.

I don't want to go way off topic, because this makes sense to me too, but can't we argue that those guardrails themselves were limitations to truth?  Less disruptive, but still stifling us by cutting off more radical ideas and theories.

In other words, during the old days we were driven to the center by guardrails and now we are driven to the edges by the lack of guardrails.

What is harming is us not necessarily the guardrails or lack thereof.  It's the continued social silo-ing of our population into the college educated and the un-educated.  There is no draft or service requirement, or more importantly, a healthy and vibrant public school system that is giving us exposure to each other and creating a national identify of understanding the "other".

 

[tx 3 putt 77,235]

3 minutes ago, The Original Greaser Bob said:

I don't want to go way off topic, because this makes sense to me too, but can't we argue that those guardrails themselves were limitations to truth?  Less disruptive, but still stifling us by cutting off more radical ideas and theories.

In other words, during the old days we were driven to the center by guardrails and now we are driven to the edges by the lack of guardrails.

What is harming is us not necessarily the guardrails or lack thereof.  It's the continued social silo-ing of our population into the college educated and the un-educated.  There is no draft or service requirement, or more importantly, a healthy and vibrant public school system that is giving us exposure to each other and creating a national identify of understanding the "other".

 

[jimmyjazz 46,000]

12 minutes ago, The Original Greaser Bob said:

I don't want to go way off topic, because this makes sense to me too, but can't we argue that those guardrails themselves were limitations to truth?  Less disruptive, but still stifling us by cutting off more radical ideas and theories.

The FCC's Fairness Doctrine required broadcast media outlets to not only cover controversial topics but fairly report differing viewpoints on those topics.  Given that the average American is loathe to actually read, this was a pretty effective way to reach the masses in an unbiased manner.  Whether this drove people towards the center is not particularly clear.

Of course, the FCC repealed this doctrine in 1987, and here we are, permafucked.

 

Edited April 2 by jimmyjazz

[The Original Greaser Bob 2,844]

5 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

Given that the average American is loathe to actually read

The problem in a nutshell.  To read it to inject time and quiet into the absorbtion of the information.

 

[The Original Greaser Bob 2,844]

17 minutes ago, tx 3 putt said:

My story of the last decade.

[Dnaguy 12,015]

15 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

The FCC's Fairness Doctrine required broadcast media outlets to not only cover controversial topics but fairly report differing viewpoints on those topics.  Given that the average American is loathe to actually read, this was a pretty effective way to reach the masses in an unbiased manner.  Whether this drove people towards the center is not particularly clear.

Of course, the FCC repealed this doctrine in 1987, and here we are, permafucked.

 

 

The repeal of the fairness doctrine would have happened in practice anyway as cable news was really the driver of partisanship in media. The FCC only has authority over public airwaves so I would imagine we'd be in the same place regardless.

 

I don't think the answer is / ever was forcing fairness in ideas.

 

I think the real issue is that while we've democratized voting and information (i.e. the internet), we've enacted incredibly un-democratic $ policy.

The trickle down economics /  tax cutting / $ = speech has allowed for a relative few to control and manipulate messaging.

 

I'd argue we were always as dumb as this. There just wasn't an ability to have so few controlling the message to persuade the dumbs.

 

[TexasEd 8,067]

10 hours ago, Pato del Muerto said:

Awful close to Knight Industries

[dcbc 14,496]

This is refreshing.

 

https://www.cleveland.com/news/2024/03/our-trump-reporting-upsets-some-readers-but-there-arent-two-sides-to-facts-letter-from-the-editor.html

 

Our Trump reporting upsets some readers, but there aren’t two sides to facts: Letter from the Editor

Published: Mar. 30, 2024, 8:16 a.m.

 

Spoiler

 

A more-than-occasional arrival in the email these days is a question expressed two ways, one with dripping condescension and the other with courtesy:

 

Why don’t our opinion platforms treat Donald Trump and other politicians exactly the same way. Some phrase it differently, asking why we demean the former president’s supporters in describing his behavior as monstrous, insurrectionist and authoritarian.

I feel for those who write. They believe in Trump and want their local news source to recognize what they see in him.

 

 

The angry writers denounce me for ignoring what they call the Biden family crime syndicate and criminality far beyond that of Trump. They quote news sources of no credibility as proof the mainstream media ignores evidence that Biden, not Trump, is the criminal dictator.

 

 

The courteous writers don’t go down that road. They politely ask how we can discount the passions and beliefs of the many people who believe in Trump.

This is a tough column to write, because I don’t want to demean or insult those who write me in good faith. I’ve started it a half dozen times since November but turned to other topics each time because this needle hard to thread. No matter how I present it, I’ll offend some thoughtful, decent people.

 

 

The north star here is truth. We tell the truth, even when it offends some of the people who pay us for information.

 

 

The truth is that Donald Trump undermined faith in our elections in his false bid to retain the presidency. He sparked an insurrection intended to overthrow our government and keep himself in power. No president in our history has done worse.

 

 

This is not subjective. We all saw it. Plenty of leaders today try to convince the masses we did not see what we saw, but our eyes don’t deceive. (If leaders began a yearslong campaign today to convince us that the Baltimore bridge did not collapse Tuesday morning, would you ever believe them?) Trust your eyes. Trump on Jan. 6 launched the most serious threat to our system of government since the Civil War. You know that. You saw it.

The facts involving Trump are crystal clear, and as news people, we cannot pretend otherwise, as unpopular as that might be with a segment of our readers. There aren’t two sides to facts. People who say the earth is flat don’t get space on our platforms. If that offends them, so be it.

 

 

As for those who equate Trump and Joe Biden, that’s false equivalency. Biden has done nothing remotely close to the egregious, anti-American acts of Trump. We can debate the success and mindset of our current president, as we have about most presidents in our lifetimes, but Biden was never a threat to our democracy. Trump is. He is unique among all American presidents for his efforts to keep power at any cost.

Personally, I find it hard to understand how Americans who take pride in our system of government support Trump. All those soldiers who died in World War II were fighting against the kind of regime Trump wants to create on our soil. How do they not see it?

 

 

The March 25 edition of the New Yorker magazine offers some insight. It includes a detailed review of a new book about Adolf Hitler, focused on the year 1932. It’s called “Takeover: Hitler’s Final Rise to Power” and is by historian Timothy W. Ryback. It explains how German leaders – including some in the media -- thought they could use Hitler as a means to get power for themselves and were willing to look past his obvious deficiencies to get where they wanted. In tolerating and using Hitler as a means to an end, they helped create the monstrous dictator responsible for millions of deaths.

How are those German leaders different from people in Congress saying the election was stolen or that Jan. 6 was not an insurrection aimed at destroying our government? They know the truth, but they deny it. They see Trump as a means to an end – power for themselves and their “team” – even if it means repeatedly telling lies.

 

 

Sadly, many believe the lies. They trust people in authority, without questioning the obvious discrepancies or relying on their own eyes. These are the people who take offense to the truths we tell about Trump. No one in our newsroom gets up in the morning wanting to make a segment of readers feel bad. No one seeks to demean anyone. We understand what a privilege it is to be welcomed into the lives of the millions of people who visit our platforms each month for news, sports and entertainment. But our duty is to the truth.

Our nation does seem to be slipping down the same slide that Germany did in the 1930s. Maybe the collapse of government in the hands of a madman is inevitable, given how the media landscape has been corrupted by partisans, as it was in 1930s Germany.

I hope not.

In our newsroom, we’ll do our part. Much as it offends some who read us, we will continue to tell the truth about Trump.

I’m at cquinn@cleveland.com

Thanks for reading.

 

 

[jimmyjazz 46,000]

24 minutes ago, Dnaguy said:

The repeal of the fairness doctrine would have happened in practice anyway as cable news was really the driver of partisanship in media. The FCC only has authority over public airwaves so I would imagine we'd be in the same place regardless.

That's probably true, but I was trying to point out that the "guardrails" we had in place pre-cable news didn't necessarily drive people to the center as was asserted.  I don't think there's much evidence of that.  If there is, I'd like to see it.

[Hookah Horns 3,083]

2 hours ago, bolverk said:

https://www.threads.net/@adamparkhomenko/post/C5Qqaoau3dk

I'm curious how much, if any, of his bullshit he actually believes. I wonder what his inner monologue is about this stuff. 

[royiv 9,333]

2 hours ago, jimmyjazz said:

Just for grins, I looked up violent crime statistics for New York state.  They peaked in 1990, with 1,181 instances of violent crime per 100,000 people.  That number is currently 429 instances per 100,000 people, a reduction of nearly 64%.

But, people believe Trump anyway, and the media mostly just sits on its hands.

Because these people never leave their trailer parks to see the world for themselves so they believe everything that’s shoveled at them by Trump. These dimwits are the exact reason why the GQP wants to dismantle the education system in this country.

[SydneyCarton 48,134]

4 hours ago, The Original Greaser Bob said:

I don't want to go way off topic, because this makes sense to me too, but can't we argue that those guardrails themselves were limitations to truth?  Less disruptive, but still stifling us by cutting off more radical ideas and theories.

In other words, during the old days we were driven to the center by guardrails and now we are driven to the edges by the lack of guardrails.

What is harming is us not necessarily the guardrails or lack thereof.  It's the continued social silo-ing of our population into the college educated and the un-educated.  There is no draft or service requirement, or more importantly, a healthy and vibrant public school system that is giving us exposure to each other and creating a national identify of understanding the "other".

 

Are guradrails limitations to the "truth?" Well, assuming we're talking about a Truth that isn't subjective...no. Facts, numbers, figurse, statistics, reporting that truth is...the fucking truth. And in a world of subjective topics, opinions, etc, yes, it can be limiting. And I couldn't give less of a company fuck if it is limiting, becuase we have limitations on all kinds of dangerous things these days. Speed limits, blood-alcohol limits. There's a reason some substances are controlled and you can't buy hydrochloric acid on the same aisle as vinegar. So as other's have posted with the "Cant handle the truth" bit, yeah. And I'm ok with that.

I agree with the rest of what you say about school, and no requirement to serve, etc. It's all true, we have no shared identity, and now that there are now guardrails, we don't even have shared truth. Our difference here is the subjective concept of what's best for society. And I'll take the gruadrails and pushing people to the center, thankyouverymuch. 

3 hours ago, Dnaguy said:

 

The repeal of the fairness doctrine would have happened in practice anyway as cable news was really the driver of partisanship in media. The FCC only has authority over public airwaves so I would imagine we'd be in the same place regardless.

 

I don't think the answer is / ever was forcing fairness in ideas.

 

I think the real issue is that while we've democratized voting and information (i.e. the internet), we've enacted incredibly un-democratic $ policy.

The trickle down economics /  tax cutting / $ = speech has allowed for a relative few to control and manipulate messaging.

 

I'd argue we were always as dumb as this. There just wasn't an ability to have so few controlling the message to persuade the dumbs.

 

A smart society would pass law that would require all airwaves that are bought/leased/owned privately to follow a certain set of rules. So the concept that we'd be in the same place I reject, becuase this topic was that we could have guardrails. We COULD do something about this, but we don't. I don't know what the laws are elsewhere in the world, but I do know that Fox News doesn't act like Fox News as we know it in Europe, or Australia. Just here. 
 

Edited April 2 by SydneyCarton

[safe sex 11,738]

Think anything will come of his gag order violation this morning? Lmao don't answer that

[SydneyCarton 48,134]

14 minutes ago, royiv said:

Because these people never leave their trailer parks to see the world for themselves so they believe everything that’s shoveled at them by Trump. These dimwits are the exact reason why the GQP wants to dismantle the education system in this country.

I'm as full of disdain for for the people who support Trump as anyone on this website, but casually clasifying them as people in trailer parks is dismissive, but more importantly dangerous. And it glosses over the true power this propoganda has had on American society. On my retired parents street, which is a retiree neighborhood, there are multiple doctors, succesfull businessmen, quite a few millionaires (or people with 2-3 homes), etc. And they all to a person vote for Trump and repeat all of the fucking lies. 40% of Americans don't live in a fucking trailer park, but 40% love Trump. Dismissing them all as trailer trash is a mistake, imo. 

Edited April 2 by SydneyCarton

[wildcat09 29,360]

6 minutes ago, SydneyCarton said:

I'm as full of disdain for for the people who support Trump as anyone on this website, but casually clasiffying them as people in trailer parks is dismissive, but more importantly dangerous. And it glosses over the true power this propoganda has had on American society. On my retired parents street, which is a retiree neighborhood, there are multiple doctors, succesfull businessmen, quite a few millionaires (or people with 2-3 homes), etc. And they all to a person vote for Trump and repeat all of the fucking lies. 40% of Americans don't live in a fucking trailer park, but 40% love Trump. Dismissing them all as trailer trash is a mistake, imo. 

Yeah, I'm gonna quote myself on this one:

Quote

So I've posted this before, but Harper's published Who Goes Nazi in 1941. I think it's spot on and very revealing about the personality types that will support fascism. There's certainly more than one type, but the key takeaway for this discussion is that it typically takes a specific type of resentment that comes with achieving something but not receiving the social reward you think you're due. You see this with petty small business owners that think they're gods because they employ five people, you see it with aggy lawyers, etc. It's like a disease that is only found among the upper-middle class. That's what fuels fascism.

His base isn't the trailer park, it's College Station, Waco, Kingwood, etc. 

[jimmyjazz 46,000]

10 minutes ago, SydneyCarton said:

40% of Americans don't live in a fucking trailer park,

Apropos of nothing, I laughed.  This almost implies 60% of Americans live in a trailer park.  (Yes, I know what you meant.)

[SydneyCarton 48,134]

Just now, jimmyjazz said:

Apropos of nothing, I laughed.  This almost implies 60% of Americans live in a trailer park.  (Yes, I know what you meant.)

Ask the question again in 20 years and we might be laughing, in the most gallows of ways, at the rate we're going. 

[BehoId, The Underminer! 11,669]

12 minutes ago, SydneyCarton said:

I'm as full of disdain for for the people who support Trump as anyone on this website, but casually clasifying them as people in trailer parks is dismissive, but more importantly dangerous. And it glosses over the true power this propoganda has had on American society. On my retired parents street, which is a retiree neighborhood, there are multiple doctors, succesfull businessmen, quite a few millionaires (or people with 2-3 homes), etc. And they all to a person vote for Trump and repeat all of the fucking lies. 40% of Americans don't live in a fucking trailer park, but 40% love Trump. Dismissing them all as trailer trash is a mistake, imo. 

Its becoming more that way every cycle: Rs get more uneducated support over time.  D support:

[SydneyCarton 48,134]

Just now, BehoId, The Underminer! said:

Its becoming more that way every cycle: Rs get more uneducated support over time.  D support:

Yes. Trump has drawn the dregs, typcially people who wouldn't have voted before, to the polls and it's brought down the average. But to imply that's all there is, is foolish. 

[Pato del Muerto 52,535]

Is that 97 indicative of a black candidate spike, or is there a real trend downward?

[BehoId, The Underminer! 11,669]

1 minute ago, Pato del Muerto said:

Is that 97 indicative of a black candidate spike, or is there a real trend downward?

my guess is yeah, the specific candidates matter the most for that one.  obama to hillary is going to do a number for black support.

[jimmyjazz 46,000]

The Latino support data, if accurate, are what should scare Democrats.

[Smax 3,800]

9 minutes ago, SydneyCarton said:

I'm as full of disdain for for the people who support Trump as anyone on this website, but casually clasiffying them as people in trailer parks is dismissive, but more importantly dangerous. And it glosses over the true power this propoganda has had on American society. On my retired parents street, which is a retiree neighborhood, there are multiple doctors, succesfull businessmen, quite a few millionaires (or people with 2-3 homes), etc. And they all to a person vote for Trump and repeat all of the fucking lies. 40% of Americans don't live in a fucking trailer park, but 40% love Trump. Dismissing them all as trailer trash is a mistake, imo. 

 

This is wild and something I've been trying to understand and sort out like most of us I'm sure for quite awhile. I just don't get it, I don't understand how educated people who prior to 2016 ish knew the difference between truth and falsehoods, right and wrong now seem to be under this brain washed spell. And its millions of people, I cant wrap my head around this because it makes no god damn sense to me. 

 

 

[SydneyCarton 48,134]

7 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

The Latino support data, if accurate, are what should scare Democrats.

The other way to look at it, is if a vast majority of that Latino support is from Texas and Florida (cubans and the RGV here in Texas), then it don't make much of a shit. 

[jimmyjazz 46,000]

Eh, it helps impede a move towards purple.  It's also stupid, but hey, pull up that ladder.

[Rimbo 26,019]

2 hours ago, The Royal We said:

How in the fuck do we deal with this?

Ask him for proof. You've shown yours, now he has to show his.

You're allowing him to get away with a level of evidence you wouldn't accept from yourself.

[SydneyCarton 48,134]

14 minutes ago, Smax said:

 

This is wild and something I've been trying to understand and sort out like most of us I'm sure for quite awhile. I just don't get it, I don't understand how educated people who prior to 2016 ish knew the difference between truth and falsehoods, right and wrong now seem to be under this brain washed spell. And its millions of people, I cant wrap my head around this because it makes no god damn sense to me. 

 

 

Really? It makes perfect sense to me. As people age, they get more conservative by nature. And I don't mean politics. I mean in the whole "The world has changed, and I don't recognize it as much and that makes me uneasy" concept. And humans don't like change. We were farmers for 10k, years, and now in the last 200 we've industralized, visited space, built computers, allowed blacks to be human beings, allowed women to vote and work, digitized, let homosexuals USUALLY not get beaten to death for existing, etc. That's a lot of change. Humans don't like change.

Specifically, since 2016, you've got a bunch of old AF boomers, who have always been conservatives listening to fox news, now retired with nothing but time on their hand, still with fox news on in the background, just listening and absorbing that hate and propoganda. And doing it while their cognition is delcining. They're now getting it from Facebook. All of their friends are saying the same thing. The guardrails that existed when they were young and in middle age don't exist anymore, but they assume that they do, therefore a company they've listened to their entire life with "news" in the name can be trusted. Meanwhile, the "news" companies are getting more aggressive, more brash, peddling that rage dopamine hit. And in the middle of all that, Covid wrecked shop. It's all a perfect storm snowballing at once. 

Edited April 2 by SydneyCarton

[SydneyCarton 48,134]

3 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

Eh, it helps impede a move towards purple.  It's also stupid, but hey, pull up that ladder.

You're more ambitious than me, dude. With the gerrymandering in this state, we'll turn purple when there's federal election laws passed. 

I'm shooeting for "Biden wins the election" and that's it at this point. 

[Surly Bevo 25,089]

2 hours ago, jimmyjazz said:

Just for grins, I looked up violent crime statistics for New York state.  They peaked in 1990, with 1,181 instances of violent crime per 100,000 people.  That number is currently 429 instances per 100,000 people, a reduction of nearly 64%.

But, people believe Trump anyway, and the media mostly just sits on its hands.

Media loves to sell a horse race. Even if one of the horses needs to be taken out back and shot. 

[Brisketexan 105,180]

3 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

Eh, it helps impede a move towards purple.  It's also stupid, but hey, pull up that ladder.

It's standard.  Once any demonized group begins to find itself somewhat "accepted" in greater society, it starts to vote more like the majority.  Happened with Irish and Italians in the NE.

A shitload of hispanics in the RGV live a life that is indistinguishable from the rednecks around them: they drive fancy new trucks to their oilpatch jobs, the don't want any regulations that might jeopardize those things, they drink beer, barbecue, and root for the cowboys.  So....they vote like the white dudes who do all those things.  Not all of them, but more of them than before.

Now, the fact that they are doing so while that very political party is actively demonizing the shit out of all of them, and threatening to scrutinize any brown people for possible deportation, is a special kind of stupid.  But then, being completely stupid and voting like it is the American brand these days, so hey, congrats to RGV hispanics, you really ARE assimilating!

[royiv 9,333]

31 minutes ago, SydneyCarton said:

I'm as full of disdain for for the people who support Trump as anyone on this website, but casually clasifying them as people in trailer parks is dismissive, but more importantly dangerous. And it glosses over the true power this propoganda has had on American society. On my retired parents street, which is a retiree neighborhood, there are multiple doctors, succesfull businessmen, quite a few millionaires (or people with 2-3 homes), etc. And they all to a person vote for Trump and repeat all of the fucking lies. 40% of Americans don't live in a fucking trailer park, but 40% love Trump. Dismissing them all as trailer trash is a mistake, imo. 

Your point is very valid. I was going more about the uneducated that make up his most enthusiastic and cult like base. The people on the videos from rallies that get posted on Twitter and we all laugh at. That’s the frustrating thing to me. These are people that Trump despises yet they worship him. And then the assumingly educated folks you refer to are in on it as well for reasons I’ll never understand.

I’ve made jokes about it before, but the fact is that traffic on this site would take an huge hit if all the Trumpers moved to TexAgs where they belong. There are lots of folks that received an education at this once fine state’s flagship university that not only think this is all hunky dory, they vote for it enthusiastically.

[The Royal We 3,072]

12 minutes ago, Rimbo said:

Ask him for proof. You've shown yours, now he has to show his.

You're allowing him to get away with a level of evidence you wouldn't accept from yourself.

I get what you're saying but we were sitting at a breakfast table having a conversation. I wasn't going to whip out my phone and pull out a news source that he would hand-wave away anyway. (I don't think I'm going to find a link on foxnews.com that shows an accurate depiction of murder rates)

So I rolled my eyes and laughed in his face - ahhhhhhh, of course, the statistics are made up!!!!

13 minutes ago, SydneyCarton said:

Specifically, since 2016, you've got a bunch of old AF boomers, who have always been conservatives listening to fox news, now retired with nothing but time on their hand, still with fox news on in the background, just listening and absorbing that hate and propoganda. And doing it while their cognition is delcining. They're now getting it from Facebook. All of their friends are saying the same thing.

I think this is as big of a part of it as anything else. My mom got off Facebook (I think when they started taking down obvious Covid disinfo) and is very active (not sitting in front of the TV on Fox all day), but the people she spends time with are absorbing this BS in all their waking hours. So even though my mom isn't getting on FB everyday, she's still inundated with the same horseshit. She gets it at the hair salon, at the Mahjong game, at trivia night at the only good pub in town, etc. It's an echo chamber of bullshit and it's very rare that these people come across someone like me who will push back/call them out/shame them/laugh in their face. They are shocked to encounter someone that completely disagrees with them about most things while still looking and sounding like them.

[Rimbo 26,019]

11 minutes ago, The Royal We said:

I get what you're saying but we were sitting at a breakfast table having a conversation. I wasn't going to whip out my phone and pull out a news source that he would hand-wave away anyway. (I don't think I'm going to find a link on foxnews.com that shows an accurate depiction of murder rates)

You're still doing it. The key is to get him to question his information, not for you to look things up for him. You don't even have to point out that his information is literally just some crap he made up. You just ask him where he got that information, how you might verify it yourself. You're letting him engage in lazy thinking.

[chainsaw 9,872]

47 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

fancy new trucks to their oilpatch jobs

or to their do-nothing jobs with PD, Sheriff, or Border Patrol.

[The Royal We 3,072]

10 minutes ago, Rimbo said:

You're still doing it. The key is to get him to question his information, not for you to look things up for him. You don't even have to point out that his information is literally just some crap he made up. You just ask him where he got that information, how you might verify it yourself. You're letting him engage in lazy thinking.

 

It's not a bad thought, but I'm not sure he would have seen the error of his ways and sought new sources of information if I'd only have asked him where he got his information all 37 times he spouted some obviously made up bullshit.

Where did you get this information that approaching conversations like you suggest has been successful in cutting through people's echo chamber of bullshit? I'm willing to try anything because I've certainly not made any headway with what I'm doing.

 

[Rimbo 26,019]

1 minute ago, The Royal We said:

 

It's not a bad thought, but I'm not sure he would have seen the error of his ways and sought new sources of information if I'd only have asked him where he got his information all 37 times he spouted some obviously made up bullshit.

Where did you get this information that approaching conversations like you suggest has been successful in cutting through people's echo chamber of bullshit? I'm willing to try anything because I've certainly not made any headway with what I'm doing.

 

Eh, it's just bein' Socratic, really. It's more or less what How to Win Friends and Influence People covers, sorta; you'll never win an argument by having one. (I don't argue to change people's minds; I do it because I'm an asshole who enjoys arguing.) You change people's minds by getting them to wander over to the right conclusion themselves. You start by finding out how they got there. Then ask them why they didn't take a different path.

It's not necessarily about cutting through in the moment, either. For this kind of thinking, it's about planting seeds that might not sprout for a year or even a decade later.

[jimmyjazz 46,000]

10 minutes ago, The Royal We said:

It's not a bad thought, but I'm not sure he would have seen the error of his ways and sought new sources of information if I'd only have asked him where he got his information all 37 times he spouted some obviously made up bullshit.

In a row?

[The Royal We 3,072]

9 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

In a row?

Try not to suck any dick on your way to the parking lot.

[Rimbo 26,019]

20 minutes ago, The Royal We said:

Try not to suck any dick on your way to the parking lot.

"I'm not even supposed to BE in court today!" --the judge, having to issue yet another ruling about Trump's social media posts

[dieucla98 2,942]

2 hours ago, jimmyjazz said:

The Latino support data, if accurate, are what should scare Democrats.

I don't disagree but the white vote moving +3% pro D should frighten R's even more, especially as those votes are swinging swing states blue where as the Latino vote will be heavier in FL and TX. Between those two shifts by my rough math, that's around 400k votes in favor of D.

[locodos 5,387]

2 hours ago, SydneyCarton said:

The other way to look at it, is if a vast majority of that Latino support is from Texas and Florida (cubans and the RGV here in Texas), then it don't make much of a shit. 

Nevada? Arizona?

[SydneyCarton 48,134]

4 minutes ago, locodos said:

Nevada? Arizona?

Maybe. But the Latino votes in Florida and Texas made bigger shifts in 2020, and I'm just making an assumption they were a larger percentage of what drew up the average. 

[chainsaw 9,872]

Just now, dieucla98 said:

I don't disagree but the white vote moving +3% pro D should frighten R's even more, especially as those votes are swinging swing states blue where as the Latino vote will be heavier in FL and TX. Between those two shifts by my rough math, that's around 400k votes in favor of D.

The problem is that whites are shrinking and latinos are growing, so the gains with whites might not help long term. But I agree with whoever has been saying that the latino losses are mainly a regression to where it should have been all along, especially if you look at their voting habits in the countries they came from, there's a fair amount of social conservatism among all the leading parties and where they differ tends to be on economic policy and whether to be in cahoots with or "tough on" the criminal element, and if so, how they claim to intend to implement those plans. That means, first, Latinos will not vote as monoliths and, second, the longer they have been a part of their community, the less they see themselves as immigrants and the more they adopt the political values of the community they are in at roughly the same rate that you see with white voters. For the RGV, it has been dominated by Ds so the latinos who have been there for generations have no problem voting as Ds. For North Texas, I believe you see some of the opposite going on. If the family is somewhere in Colin County they probably are trending R, but if the family is in a latino enclave they might vote more like folks in RGV.

I'm more interested in how the electorate looks when divided along class lines. It's true that most of Trump's base isn't reflected by trailer trash but rather by the small businessmen who barely make enough to pay their country club dues and feel their social and economic standing is slipping due to immigrants, DEI, and the overall acceptance of previously marginalized communities. The trailer trash is just a windfall byproduct of the racism. But what really drives MAGA is a sense of entitlement.

The Gen X and Millennial MAGA are incredibly upset that they have fallen way short of what their Boomer predecessors had accomplished (were able to buy) at the same points in their lives, and instead of blaming the foreseeable consequences of Reaganomics they are blaming wokeness and the MeToo movement. Really whatever Fox News wants them to be mad at. It's all about grievance with these people. Steve Bannon is a piece of shit, but he was on to something with GamerGate and it has morphed into a broader playbook now that works on way more than people who are disappointed with their body counts.

 

[atomheartbevo 89,758]

4 hours ago, The Original Greaser Bob said:

In other words, during the old days we were driven to the center by guardrails and now we are driven to the edges by the lack of guardrails.

What is harming is us not necessarily the guardrails or lack thereof.  It's the continued social silo-ing of our population into the college educated and the un-educated.  There is no draft or service requirement, or more importantly, a healthy and vibrant public school system that is giving us exposure to each other and creating a national identify of understanding the "other".

In the old days, we didn't have people openly pushing Russian propaganda with large platforms like we do now with Tucker, Rogan, Fox News as a whole, etc.

If a Tucker Carlson back in 1984 was pushing a pro-Soviet bias, the backlash would have been immense. Now, he shows up in Moscow, sucks Putin off on live TV, and some Republicans love him.

 

3 hours ago, royiv said:

These dimwits are the exact reason why the GQP wants to dismantle the education system in this country.

The GQP (leadership) wants to dismantle the education system because they see profit in pushing kids to private for-profit schools.

 

[shakahorn 1,645]

Tried shorting DJT on E-trade today, was told I couldn't do it because they don't have shares to borrow.  Seems like everyone is shorting.