Guilty Guilty Guilty Guilty Guilty Guilty Guilty Guilty Guilty Guilty Guilty Guilty Guilty Guilty Guilty Guilty Guilty Guilty Guilty Guilty Guilty Guilty Guilty Guilty Guilty Guilty Guilty Guilty Guilty Guilty Guilty Guilty Guilty Guilty

[YGIFS 19449]

This is fantastic, this idea.  

[Hermanator 6916]

11 hours ago, Francisco 2.0 said:

 

 

 

Every single one of them (except the guy who also got weapons charges) basically just did what Biden did. Took the stuff home to do work and never returned it. All got multiple years in prison. 

None of them got the option to give it back without consequences. None of them apparently tried to hide it and lie to investigators. I doubt any of them had information as damaging if leaked as Trump had. 

He should get 15 to 20 years, minimum and it's complete bullshit Presidents are allowed to skate on shit that other people routinely get 4+ years for doing. 

[Gatorubet 30064]

4 minutes ago, Hermanator said:

Every single one of them (except the guy who also got weapons charges) basically just did what Biden did. Took the stuff home to do work and never returned it. All got multiple years in prison. 

None of them got the option to give it back without consequences. None of them apparently tried to hide it and lie to investigators. I doubt any of them had information as damaging if leaked as Trump had. 

He should get 15 to 20 years, minimum and it's complete bullshit Presidents are allowed to skate on shit that other people routinely get 4+ years for doing. 

Prove the willful to me.  Tell me the basis for “none of them tried to lie and hide”, making the others were mere possession convictions sans intent. 

You may be right, but I’m interested in facts and sources backing that up, not right wing talking points sans facts.   So show your work please.  

[Gatorubet 30064]

nm.  looked up one.

”The Justice Department said he had more than 570 documents marked as classified at his home, including some regarding US missile defense, and had altered or removed the classification markings on about 50 documents.”

IOW, Herminator full of shit. 

[Hermanator 6916]

2 minutes ago, Gatorubet said:

Prove the willful to me.  Tell me the basis for “none of them tried to lie and hide”, making the others were mere possession convictions sans intent. 

You may be right, but I’m interested in facts and sources backing that up, not right wing talking points sans facts.   So show your work please.  

I'm working off the assumption if any of them tried to lie and hide it they would have also been charged with obstruction as Trump as been and that would have been mentioned in that piece. If what's written there isn't completely accurate then what I said would be off base. 

[TwiceHorn 31184]

10 minutes ago, Gatorubet said:

Prove the willful to me.  Tell me the basis for “none of them tried to lie and hide”, making the others were mere possession convictions sans intent. 

You may be right, but I’m interested in facts and sources backing that up, not right wing talking points sans facts.   So show your work please.  

Yep, that pesky ol intent.

It's a bitch, it is.

I think it is reasonable to assume that most high-level politicians leave office with a few classified documents among their voluminous papers.  I'm not going to get too upset about that.  Except, as has been noted, the "IC" needs to keep better track of their shit and not just leave it with random pols.  That seems to me to be a fucking problem

Legally, that means they lacked intention to take or retain such documents, depending, of course, on their course of action once discovered.

One commonality among those convicted, above, is that they didn't "leave office" with a term or multiple term's worth of documents.  They took single or multiple classified documents home in isolation.  That fact alone bolsters the intent.

Edited June 16, 2023 by TwiceHorn

[Hermanator 6916]

1 minute ago, Gatorubet said:

nm.  looked up one.

”The Justice Department said he had more than 570 documents marked as classified at his home, including some regarding US missile defense, and had altered or removed the classification markings on about 50 documents.”

IOW, Herminator full of shit. 

Altering or removing the markings coule be construed as obstruction and maybe they were charged with that but it wasn't reported here. Or they didn't charge it for whatever reason. Still, it's one 1 of the cases that shows that and even then didn't mentioned lying to investigators and intentionally attempting to hide the documents when it was being investigated. Also didn't mention anything about being given the chance to return them without penalty the way Trump and Biden were. 

[Hermanator 6916]

Also I'm under the assumption that intent doesn't matter much in the law these people have been convicted and imprisoned over. That having the documents unsecured in your home is the crime regardless of intent to take them or intent to disseminate. Is that not true? If not then I'm curious in each case how intent was established for these people. 

Edited June 16, 2023 by Hermanator

[TwiceHorn 31184]

1 minute ago, Hermanator said:

Also I'm under the assumption that intent doesn't matter much in the law these people have been convicted and imprisoned over. That having the documents unsecured in your home is the crime regardless of intent to take them or intent to disseminate. Is that not true? If not then I'm curious in each case how intent was established for these people. 

You would be wrong.

(d)

Whoever, lawfully having possession of, access to, control over, or being entrusted with any document, writing, code book, signal book, sketch, photograph, photographic negative, blueprint, plan, map, model, instrument, appliance, or note relating to the national defense, or information relating to the national defense which information the possessor has reason to believe could be used to the injury of the United States or to the advantage of any foreign nation, willfully communicates, delivers, transmits or causes to be communicated, delivered, or transmitted or attempts to communicate, deliver, transmit or cause to be communicated, delivered or transmitted the same to any person not entitled to receive it, or willfully retains the same and fails to deliver it on demand to the officer or employee of the United States entitled to receive it; or

[jimmyjazz 45513]

It would seem that clearly lays out part of Trump's crimes, in that he did not return documents when asked to do so.  Also, it would appear "classified" is not a limitation in terms of the types of documents covered.

[Hermanator 6916]

1 minute ago, TwiceHorn said:

You would be wrong.

(d)

Whoever, lawfully having possession of, access to, control over, or being entrusted with any document, writing, code book, signal book, sketch, photograph, photographic negative, blueprint, plan, map, model, instrument, appliance, or note relating to the national defense, or information relating to the national defense which information the possessor has reason to believe could be used to the injury of the United States or to the advantage of any foreign nation, willfully communicates, delivers, transmits or causes to be communicated, delivered, or transmitted or attempts to communicate, deliver, transmit or cause to be communicated, delivered or transmitted the same to any person not entitled to receive it, or willfully retains the same and fails to deliver it on demand to the officer or employee of the United States entitled to receive it; or

So in each of these cases the government demanded the documents back and they refused to give it?

Otherwise, since each case states they were not charged with willful dissemination, how was intent proven in each of these cases? I'm basically trying to figure out how each of these cases (except the one where the guy removed the classified markings and the gun charges one) differs from what Biden did. Took classified materials home to work on and for whatever reason kept them there. 

If they each were given the chance to return them and failed to then it would be nice if whoever is reporting this in that tweet would have included that information. All I know about any of those cases is what is written there. I'm not pretending to be an expert on them. Just looking for the truth about what they did versus what Biden did. 

We all know what Trump did goes way above and beyond what is reported in that tweet the majority of those people did. 

[Born to Run 6524]

*are

Sorry, two Corinthians are bigglier than one.

[Pato del Muerto 52322]

3 minutes ago, Born to Run said:

1 hour ago, Pato del Muerto said:

*are

Sorry, two Corinthians are bigglier than one.

[The Dog 43771]

3 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

It would seem that clearly lays out part of Trump's crimes, in that he did not return documents when asked to do so.  Also, it would appear "classified" is not a limitation in terms of the types of documents covered.

Not only did he not return them when asked - he clearly took them on purpose and has admitted it. 

And classification has never mattered - it's "national defense information". The fact he had stuff that was still classified makes it even worse. 

Trump's end game appears to be "lie to everyone and hope to get elected so I can pardon myself."

That's why Habba and the rest of his minions are on Newsmax, Fox, etc. lying about the contents of this statue and the Presidential Records Act. They want the public to believe that he had the right to do all of this and that the law doesn't say what it does. 

[Gatorubet 30064]

Quote

Kingsbury, who was an analyst for the FBI, pleaded guilty in 2022 to two counts of violating the willful retention of national defense information provision after she was indicted by a federal grand jury in 2021 for possessing classified documents in her home. The Justice Department saidKingsbury took home approximately 386 classified documents from work over more than 12 years, including secret information related to counterterrorism intelligence sources and methods, open investigations, the FBI’s technical capabilities, intelligence gaps, and al Qaeda in Africa.

386 docs over 12 years is not your staff missing them and an “accident”

Quote

Birchum, who was an Air Force lieutenant colonel with a decorated 29-year military career, pleaded guilty in February to one count of violating the willful retention of national defense information provision after investigators discovered during the first month of the Trump presidency in 2017 that Birchum had stored more than 300 classified documents or files in his home, a storage pod on his property and his officer’s quarters overseas.

Oopsie.  None of these peeps are accidental possession.   They all knew they had it and kept it anyway. In sometimes multiple places, sometimes over a decade.   Willful. 

No offense, but don’t make conclusions on assumptions when the true facts are staring at you. 

Edited June 16, 2023 by Gatorubet

[Horn Under a Bad Sign 20342]

"If you want to die in jail, keep talking."  Really quite an interesting interview with ... if you can believe it ... two lawyers.    The thing is that it speaks to the one thing Trump can't do: shut up.  He's just psychologically incapable of shutting his mouth, even when opening it destroys him. He's in love with the sound of his own voice.   So even when his lawyers tell him to shut his fucking mouth, he can't.    It's sort of fascinating in a morbid kind of way.

https://www.juancole.com/2023/06/national-security-treatment.html


 

[Pato del Muerto 52322]

Just now, Horn Under a Bad Sign said:

"If you want to die in jail, keep talking."  Really quite an interesting interview with ... if you can believe it ... two lawyers.    The thing is that it speaks to the one thing Trump can't do: shut up.  He's just psychologically incapable of shutting his mouth, even when opening it destroys him. He's in love with the sound of his own voice.   So even when his lawyers tell him to shut his fucking mouth, he can't.    It's sort of fascinating in a morbid kind of way.

https://www.juancole.com/2023/06/national-security-treatment.html


 

Opening his mouth has never destroyed him. I’m sure he believes himself invincible, possibly literally so. 

[scottsins 1953]

So in each of these cases the government demanded the documents back and they refused to give it?
Otherwise, since each case states they were not charged with willful dissemination, how was intent proven in each of these cases? I'm basically trying to figure out how each of these cases (except the one where the guy removed the classified markings and the gun charges one) differs from what Biden did. Took classified materials home to work on and for whatever reason kept them there. 
If they each were given the chance to return them and failed to then it would be nice if whoever is reporting this in that tweet would have included that information. All I know about any of those cases is what is written there. I'm not pretending to be an expert on them. Just looking for the truth about what they did versus what Biden did. 
We all know what Trump did goes way above and beyond what is reported in that tweet the majority of those people did. 

Well, the simple answer is that in 6 out of the 7 cases, the defendant pled guilty, so they proved it with the confession.

[Horn Under a Bad Sign 20342]

1 minute ago, Pato del Muerto said:

Opening his mouth has never destroyed him. I’m sure he believes himself invincible, possibly literally so. 

I think exactly the opposite. He knows he's quite fragile and bloviates and blusters to try to keep his mind off that fragility. 

['stache 21744]

8 minutes ago, Gatorubet said:

386 docs over 12 years is not your staff missing them and an “accident”

Oopsie.  None of these peeps are accidental possession.   They all knew they had it and kept it anyway. In sometimes multiple places, sometimes over a decade.   Willful. 

No offense, but don’t make conclusions on assumptions when the true facts are staring at you. 

He’s not looking for the facts, he’s looking for a narrative that makes the Biden docs the same, ergo, Trump stuff is a “witch-hunt.” He’s not even hiding his motivation, “just asking questions” to equate Biden and Trump to fit the narrative. It’s truly pathetic.

[Hermanator 6916]

12 minutes ago, Gatorubet said:

386 docs over 12 years is not your staff missing them and an “accident”

Oopsie.  None of these peeps are accidental possession.   They all knew they had it and kept it anyway. In sometimes multiple places, sometimes over a decade.   Willful. 

No offense, but don’t make conclusions on assumptions when the true facts are staring at you. 

https://www.cnbc.com/2023/01/12/president-biden-had-classified-documents-in-delaware-garage.html

Quote

Classified government documents from the Obama administration were found in a storage space in the garage of President Joe Biden’s Delaware home, Biden said Thursday.

The disclosure of that latest discovery comes three days after Biden’s special counsel, Richard Sauber, confirmed media reports that attorneys for the president found a first batch of classified documents from the Biden administration on Nov. 2 in an office that Biden had used as a private citizen at a Washington think tank.

Sauber issued a statement earlier Thursday detailing how and where the second batch of documents was found. He said that a “small number” of records with classified markings were found in the garage. Less than a dozen classified documents had been found in the first batch.

Soon afterward, Biden talked about the discovery with reporters.

“As I said earlier this week, and by the way, my Corvette is in a locked garage, so it’s not like they’re sitting out on the street,” Biden said, referring to the documents.

“People know I take classified documents and classified materials seriously,” Biden said. “I also said we’re cooperating, fully cooperated with the Justice Department’s review.”

The president said the DOJ was immediately notified about the latest discovery, “and we’re going to see how all this unfolds.”

 

Biden had many classified documents in his garage from many years going back to his VP days. He willfully took them and knew he had them there. It wasn't accidental possession. How can his not be proven intent yet the others were? Or is the answer he's privileged and they're not? That's what I'm saying is 100 percent bullshit. If these government employees and contractors are getting multiple years for willfully taking classified documents home then EVERYONE who willfully takes them home should get multiple years. Biden included. Unless it can be explained to me how what he did was proven different from what they did other than "he's a former VP and current president so he's privileged". 

We all know what Trump did goes well beyond any of these people so he's not part of this discussion. 

Also, I don't get the condescending dickhead tone you're taking with me. Why are you insulting me and making this personal?

Edited June 16, 2023 by Hermanator

[The Dog 43771]

[Hermanator 6916]

6 minutes ago, 'stache said:

He’s not looking for the facts, he’s looking for a narrative that makes the Biden docs the same, ergo, Trump stuff is a “witch-hunt.” He’s not even hiding his motivation, “just asking questions” to equate Biden and Trump to fit the narrative. It’s truly pathetic.

That's compete bullshit. I said what Trump did goes way beyond this so he isn't part of this discussion. I'm talking about these people and Biden. If they get prison time for willfully taking classified documents home then EVERYONE up to and including the President should get prison time for the same. Is national security important only if you're a peasant but not if you're President? 

8 minutes ago, scottsins said:

Well, the simple answer is that in 6 out of the 7 cases, the defendant pled guilty, so they proved it with the confession.

That's a good point. So the answer is because they're low level people who can be beaten down by the government into a plea and aren't protected like politicians. 

[jimmyjazz 45513]

11 minutes ago, 'stache said:

He’s not looking for the facts, he’s looking for a narrative that makes the Biden docs the same, ergo, Trump stuff is a “witch-hunt.” He’s not even hiding his motivation, “just asking questions” to equate Biden and Trump to fit the narrative. It’s truly pathetic.

The "but Biden" angle without an equivalent "but Pence" angle seems telling.

[jimmyjazz 45513]

16 minutes ago, Horn Under a Bad Sign said:

"If you want to die in jail, keep talking."  Really quite an interesting interview with ... if you can believe it ... two lawyers.    The thing is that it speaks to the one thing Trump can't do: shut up.  He's just psychologically incapable of shutting his mouth, even when opening it destroys him. He's in love with the sound of his own voice.   So even when his lawyers tell him to shut his fucking mouth, he can't.    It's sort of fascinating in a morbid kind of way.

https://www.juancole.com/2023/06/national-security-treatment.html
 

I love this quote:

The federal government is a risk-averse enterprise when it comes to these matters, so nothing is put in the indictment unless it exists in actual fact.

[scottsins 1953]

That's a good point. So the answer is because they're low level people who can be beaten down by the government into a plea and aren't protected like politicians. 

No. That’s not the answer. That’s another conclusory presumption that you feel compelled to make in order to satisfy confirmation bias.

[Pato del Muerto 52322]

1 minute ago, jimmyjazz said:

I love this quote:

The federal government is a risk-averse enterprise when it comes to these matters, so nothing is put in the indictment unless it exists in actual fact.

Well certain relevant elements made the decision years ago to not trade in actual fact.  And they might end up on the jury…or behind the bench. 

['stache 21744]

7 minutes ago, Hermanator said:

That's compete bullshit. I said what Trump did goes way beyond this so he isn't part of this discussion. I'm talking about these people and Biden. If they get prison time for willfully taking classified documents home then EVERYONE up to and including the President should get prison time for the same. Is national security important only if you're a peasant but not if you're President? 

That's a good point. So the answer is because they're low level people who can be beaten down by the government into a plea and aren't protected like politicians. 

You're so transparent it's not even funny. For example, you intentionally cherry pick from your own article insisting that "willfulness" is the same in both cases. It is not, as shown in your own articles. I like you you conveniently left this out:

The DOJ and the National Archives are investigating how and why Biden retained the documents after he completed two terms as vice president for President Barack Obama in January 2017.

NBC News reported later Thursday that multiple aides for Biden in the final days of the Obama administration have been interviewed by law enforcement officials in connection with that probe.

“The people who were boxing [up the vice presidential office] had no idea that there was anything in there that shouldn’t leave the White House,” a source familiar with the matter told NBC News. “There was no decision made to take certain documents that should have been presidential records or classified.”

 

You also ignored this about the other case. If the Biden docs were this level of classified, it would have been found by now, and much more serious.

 The Justice Department saidKingsbury took home approximately 386 classified documents from work over more than 12 years, including secret information related to counterterrorism intelligence sources and methods, open investigations, the FBI’s technical capabilities, intelligence gaps, and al Qaeda in Africa.

 

You clearly want desperately for the cases to all the be same. They are not. Your own citations prove it, and yet you're still "asking questions" which are answered in your articles. It's pathetic, truly. 

[Horn Under a Bad Sign 20342]

24 minutes ago, Hermanator said:

https://www.cnbc.com/2023/01/12/president-biden-had-classified-documents-in-delaware-garage.html

 

Biden had many classified documents in his garage from many years going back to his VP days. He willfully took them and knew he had them there. It wasn't accidental possession. How can his not be proven intent yet the others were? Or is the answer he's privileged and they're not? That's what I'm saying is 100 percent bullshit. If these government employees and contractors are getting multiple years for willfully taking classified documents home then EVERYONE who willfully takes them home should get multiple years. Biden included. Unless it can be explained to me how what he did was proven different from what they did other than "he's a former VP and current president so he's privileged". 

We all know what Trump did goes well beyond any of these people so he's not part of this discussion. 

Also, I don't get the condescending dickhead tone you're taking with me. Why are you insulting me and making this personal?

This is false equivalence, Hermanator.  Got any more logical fallacies for us?

https://newslit.org/tips-tools/news-lit-tip-false-equivalence/#:~:text=As the name suggests%2C false,either in quantity or quality.
 

[wildcat09 29187]

26 minutes ago, Hermanator said:

https://www.cnbc.com/2023/01/12/president-biden-had-classified-documents-in-delaware-garage.html

 

Biden had many classified documents in his garage from many years going back to his VP days. He willfully took them and knew he had them there. It wasn't accidental possession. How can his not be proven intent yet the others were? Or is the answer he's privileged and they're not? That's what I'm saying is 100 percent bullshit. If these government employees and contractors are getting multiple years for willfully taking classified documents home then EVERYONE who willfully takes them home should get multiple years. Biden included. Unless it can be explained to me how what he did was proven different from what they did other than "he's a former VP and current president so he's privileged". 

We all know what Trump did goes well beyond any of these people so he's not part of this discussion. 

Also, I don't get the condescending dickhead tone you're taking with me. Why are you insulting me and making this personal?

Negged for bullshitting.

[Captainant 27311]

@Hermanator who is doing a quite nice "just asking questions" - I said this in relation to useful idiots muddying the water in favor of putin, but it applies equally here to your #bothsides defense of trump.

On 6/9/2023 at 8:21 AM, Captainant said:

Just Asking Questions is a favorite tactic of those seeking to muddy the waters and give cover to evil people. The trouble is convincing those who don't think critically about the questions being asked, that they're being useful idiots

 

[TwiceHorn 31184]

33 minutes ago, Hermanator said:

https://www.cnbc.com/2023/01/12/president-biden-had-classified-documents-in-delaware-garage.html

 

Biden had many classified documents in his garage from many years going back to his VP days. He willfully took them and knew he had them there. It wasn't accidental possession. How can his not be proven intent yet the others were? Or is the answer he's privileged and they're not? That's what I'm saying is 100 percent bullshit. If these government employees and contractors are getting multiple years for willfully taking classified documents home then EVERYONE who willfully takes them home should get multiple years. Biden included. Unless it can be explained to me how what he did was proven different from what they did other than "he's a former VP and current president so he's privileged". 

We all know what Trump did goes well beyond any of these people so he's not part of this discussion. 

Also, I don't get the condescending dickhead tone you're taking with me. Why are you insulting me and making this personal?

You can't prove that it wasn't.

They were buried among other documents.

The other defendants took classified information in isolation.

[Brisketexan 104465]

 
Biden had many classified documents in his garage from many years going back to his VP days. He willfully took them and knew he had them there. It wasn't accidental possession. How can his not be proven intent yet the others were? Or is the answer he's privileged and they're not? That's what I'm saying is 100 percent bullshit. If these government employees and contractors are getting multiple years for willfully taking classified documents home then EVERYONE who willfully takes them home should get multiple years. Biden included. Unless it can be explained to me how what he did was proven different from what they did other than "he's a former VP and current president so he's privileged". 
We all know what Trump did goes well beyond any of these people so he's not part of this discussion. 
Also, I don't get the condescending dickhead tone you're taking with me. Why are you insulting me and making this personal?

Your post contains this conclusion that is 1) really important, 2) not supported by the facts, and 3) is actually contradicted by Biden’s actions: “He willfully took them and knew he had them there.”

No. There is no basis to conclude that Biden willfully took what he knew to be classified information. Intent matters. If person A scoops up a collection of papers – letters, takeout menus, post-it notes, and happens to scoop up a classified document with them, there’s no intent. If person B scoops up a similar collection of papers, and sees a classified doc and decides “oh, that’s really cool – I am taking that too,” then there’s intent. BUT….it’s very hard to prove state of mind one way or the other in that case. This, of course, differs from the cases of the other folks convicted on these charges, because they functionally shouldn’t have been taking ANY docs home with them. The nature of their possession of classified information functionally proves the intent element by itself. So, that’s a difference between the previously convicted folks and, for example, Biden, Pence, and Trump.
And the thing is, that means that Trump (and Biden) get some heightened “benefit of the doubt,” practically speaking. If one of them happens to have a few classified documents mixed in with their other records, it’s almost impossible to show the requisite intent to prove that any crime was committed. But after that point is where there’s a fork in the road. Two things distinguish Trump’s case from Biden’s circumstance, and those things are really, really, really important.

1) Trump KNEW he had classified information. Specific classified information. He talked about it with people (who did not have clearance). He fucking SHOWED it to people (who did not have clearance). There is no defense of “whoops, I accidentally scooped a few papers up, and didn’t know I had them.” He has provided dispositive evidence that he KNEW he had classified materials.

2) Trump did not cooperate with the government, and did not return (and actively concealed and kept) classified information. When Biden became aware of the potential for there being classified information in his possession, his folks communicated with the feds, they looked for materials, and they have cooperated with the feds. That is, everything that is consistent with a “whoops, maybe some classified papers got mixed in – by all means, let’s get that sorted out with the government.”

So, common sense tells us that former POTUS/VPOTUS have a heightened chance to accidentally (not intentionally) having classified information in their possession. Thus, the mere possession is not going to establish intent. It requires something more. Biden has provided no evidence of that “something more.” In fact, his conduct (and Pence’s) have NEGATED that “something more.” Trump, on the other hand, has fucking BRAGGED about the “something more.”

There. There’s your difference, and how it distinguishes Biden and Pence (no evidence of intent, and actual evidence consistent with no intent) vs. Trump (guilty and proud of it).

[jimmyjazz 45513]

I could have sworn I read an article that claimed the vast majority of the documents in Biden's garage were personal notes, etc., which aren't required to be transferred to National Archives upon leaving office.  A few government documents were comingled, and he turned them over immediately.

[yoladu 4065]

12 hours ago, Hookah Horns said:

I don't think he believes or even remotely understands any of the shit he's said about the law. He just regurgitates what he hears from the loons in his orbit, OANN, etc. He thinks he'll get away with it simply because he's repeatedly bullshitted his way to zero consequences throughout his life.

Part of me thinks that maybe he did all this just to prove to himself once and for all that he really is invincible/a god. Kinda like in Groundhog Day when he starts killing himself in a variety of ways before waking up again no worse for the wear. 

yep, we are precariously close to witnessing him actually, literally shooting someone in the middle of 5th avenue to prove out his loyalty test.

[TwiceHorn 31184]

37 minutes ago, The Dog said:

More than anything, I'm betting Trusty got fired because Trump got indicted.

I imagine any Trump lawyer out of patience with Trump could cite valid reasons for withdrawal at virtually any time as a result of his failure to accept advice and instructions to ignore the law or do unethical things.

[dcbc 14388]

1 hour ago, TwiceHorn said:

Yep, that pesky ol intent.

It's a bitch, it is.

Exactly.  The crime isn't "having the documents at home."

 

"knowingly removes such documents or materials without authority and with the intent to retain such documents or materials at an unauthorized location"

 

Refusing to return the documents simply demonstrates intent to retain.  There are many ways you might be able to prove that element.  But that's a pretty solid one.

Edited June 16, 2023 by dcbc

['stache 21744]

14 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

You can't prove that it wasn't.

They were buried among other documents.

The other defendants took classified information in isolation.

 

9 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

I could have sworn I read an article that claimed the vast majority of the documents in Biden's garage were personal notes, etc., which aren't required to be transferred to National Archives upon leaving office.  A few government documents were comingled, and he turned them over immediately.

And as I mentioned above, the other guy's documents included "secret information related to counterterrorism intelligence sources and methods, open investigations, the FBI’s technical capabilities, intelligence gaps, and al Qaeda in Africa." The Trump docs who he showed the journalist included war plans. If the Biden (or Pence) docs included this type of stuff, it would have been reported by now. It's so obvious that their docs were not that type of information. My guess is that they were briefings that included some classified information that should have been returned or destroyed and were left somewhere and made their way into a box. That's speculation obviously, but what is not speculation is that if there was evidence that Biden or Pence selectively took certain classified documents that included really high level classified counterterrorism information, it would have been reported in the media by now, and they'd be in some serious doo doo. That's not what happened. They. Are. Not. The. Same. 

Edited June 16, 2023 by 'stache

[yoladu 4065]

*never mind.. already covered above.

Edited June 16, 2023 by yoladu

[Brisketexan 104465]

yep, we are precariously close to witnessing him actually, literally shooting someone in the middle of 5th avenue to prove out his loyalty test.

You think you’re being hyperbolic.
You’re not.
This is a standard step in how authoritarian movements cement their power. They openly defy and shit on the rule of law, because that demonstrates their power, and their absolute dominance (the Party is the most powerful institution in the country, and thus cannot be questioned - shit, don’t you remember when Stephen Miller made pretty much that EXACT statement Re Trump early in his presidency? They aren’t trying to hide it).
Trump is the party. So it follows that the step is to show that Trump is above the law, is the most important institution in the country, and cannot be questioned.
That’s why the criminal process and issue here is literally an existential one. The question being presented is “who/what is the controlling power in the US: the rule of law, or Donald Trump/the GQP?”
The answer to that question will decide our destiny, or our destruction.

[TwiceHorn 31184]

3 minutes ago, 'stache said:

 

And as I mentioned above, the other guy's documents included "secret information related to counterterrorism intelligence sources and methods, open investigations, the FBI’s technical capabilities, intelligence gaps, and al Qaeda in Africa." The Trump docs who he showed the journalist included war plans. If the Biden (or Pence) docs included this type of stuff, it would have been reported by now. It's so obvious that their docs were not that type of information. My guess is that they were briefings that included some classified information that should have been returned or destroyed and were left somewhere and made their way into a box. That's speculation obviously, but what is not speculation is that if there was evidence that Biden or Pence selectively took certain classified documents that included really high level classified counterterrorism information, it would have been reported in the media by now, and they'd be in some serious doo doo. That's not what happened. They. Are. Not. The. Same. 

I'm not sure I'd bet that Trump's classified info is "worse" than Biden's or Pence's.  It might very well be, given teh Donald's propensity for self-aggraindizement (he might have wanted the hot shit).

But there are suffficient differences in the circumstances alone to merit prosecution for Trump and no-bills for Biden and Pence.

[Gatorubet 30064]

18 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

I'm not sure I'd bet that Trump's classified info is "worse" than Biden's or Pence's.  It might very well be, given teh Donald's propensity for self-aggraindizement (he might have wanted the hot shit).

Dude . War plans.  Nuke secrets.  Really?

[Bozo_Casanova 26232]

Y’all. This is not the Biden special prosecutor thread. When and if the special prosecutor indicts Biden I’m all ears. Until then, it’s not a relevant point of comparison here. 

[chainsaw 9831]

1 minute ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

Y’all. This is not the Biden special prosecutor thread. When and if the special prosecutor indicts Biden I’m all ears. Until then, it’s not a relevant point of comparison here. 

Well there isn't a literal connection

[Horn Dog 9644]

Presidents and Vice presidents (and others like diplomats who are provided multi year government housing, staff and ubiquitous access to top secret documents as part of their jobs)  should absolutely be treated differently than contractors or regular government employees with respect to inadvertently possessing top secret documents.   Presidential transitions are chaotic and under a very small time frame.  The  packing is done by staff and government employees.  It is essentially inevitable that some top secret documents will be accidently included in the move out material.   Bush, Obama, Trump, Biden, nor Pence should be prosecuted for this inevitable fact.  But when the government comes back and says, we know you accidently took some documents that you shouldn't have, but now want them back, they need to be given back without hesitation.  That is the difference.    On the other hand, if you are a government employee/contractor and you personally take top secret documents to your home, make no effort to return them, and just try to keep them after your leave your job, yeah you need to be facing jail time.  The situations are not comparable.  This really isn't difficult.

[Red Five 40593]

Slight difference between "Oops, we found some stuff mixed in with personal items. Here you go. Sorry about that" and the FBI showing up at your door because for a year and a half you've been lying and obstructing about all the super classified stuff you knowingly stole on your way out the door. 

[Brisketexan 104465]

Y’all. This is not the Biden special prosecutor thread. When and if the special prosecutor indicts Biden I’m all ears. Until then, it’s not a relevant point of comparison here. 

Well, it does help demonstrate 1) how the Trumpers only have “what about!” as their defense, and 2) even if that logical fallacy WAS a defense…it wouldn’t even apply here. Thus proving yet again that Trump and Trump apologists are an infinite layer cake of abject stupidity.

[Captainant 27311]

41 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

I'm not sure I'd bet that Trump's classified info is "worse" than Biden's or Pence's.  It might very well be, given teh Donald's propensity for self-aggraindizement (he might have wanted the hot shit).

But there are suffficient differences in the circumstances alone to merit prosecution for Trump and no-bills for Biden and Pence.

Hey champ - stop doing annie's #bothsides work for him. Read the indictment. Page 28, counts 1-31 lay out all the various documents stolen. In no particular order:

• TS/SI/NOFORN/FISA: Undated document concerning military capabilities of a foreign country and the US
• TS/[REDACTED]/[REDACTED]/ORCON/NOFORN: June 2020 doc on nuclear capabilities of a foreign country
• S/FVEY: pages of a document concerning projected regional capabilities of a foreign power and the US
• S/FRD: undated document concerning nuclear weaponry of the US

and many, many more. Plus, biden wasn't storing his in a fucking ballroom next to his party deck. Fuck the fuck outta here. There is no equivalency between the two.

[C-Man 26992]

18 minutes ago, Horn Dog said:

Presidents and Vice presidents (and others like diplomats who are provided multi year government housing, staff and ubiquitous access to top secret documents as part of their jobs)  should absolutely be treated differently than contractors or regular government employees with respect to inadvertently possessing top secret documents.   Presidential transitions are chaotic and under a very small time frame.  The  packing is done by staff and government employees.  It is essentially inevitable that some top secret documents will be accidently included in the move out material.   Bush, Obama, Trump, Biden, nor Pence should be prosecuted for this inevitable fact.  But when the government comes back and says, we know you accidently took some documents that you shouldn't have, but now want them back, they need to be given back without hesitation.  That is the difference.    On the other hand, if you are a government employee/contractor and you personally take top secret documents to your home, make no effort to return them, and just try to keep them after your leave your job, yeah you need to be facing jail time.  The situations are not comparable.  This really isn't difficult.

This ...

 

17 minutes ago, Red Five said:

Slight difference between "Oops, we found some stuff mixed in with personal items. Here you go. Sorry about that" and the FBI showing up at your door because for a year and a half you've been lying and obstructing about all the super classified stuff you knowingly stole on your way out the door. 

... and that

 

17 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Well, it does help demonstrate 1) how the Trumpers only have “what about!” as their defense, and 2) even if that logical fallacy WAS a defense…it wouldn’t even apply here. Thus proving yet again that Trump and Trump apologists are an infinite layer cake of abject stupidity.

This is perfection 

[The Dog 43771]

This wouldn't be necessary if the stuff was really "declassified."