Guilty Guilty Guilty Guilty Guilty Guilty Guilty Guilty Guilty Guilty Guilty Guilty Guilty Guilty Guilty Guilty Guilty Guilty Guilty Guilty Guilty Guilty Guilty Guilty Guilty Guilty Guilty Guilty Guilty Guilty Guilty Guilty Guilty Guilty

[TwiceHorn 31,184]

3 hours ago, Neonmoon said:

So I think they can prove falsifying business records in second degree, but what other crime was he committing in doing so? To make it a felony?

From everything we've heard thus far, which includes a lot of Trumpian disinformation, the "other crime" is the federal election law violation.

[speed817 19,065]

This pinata is ready for Tuesday....

Edited April 2, 2023 by speed817

[Gil Bang 25,865]

5 minutes ago, speed817 said:

This pinata is ready for Tuesday....

Pinata has Don's mom's hairstyle.

 

 

[Gatorubet 30,064]

42 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

Well, the general thinking is that engineers are coldly rational most of the time.  So they won't be emotionally swayed and they will follow the jury instructions to the letter, for better or worse.  And they're generally regarded as smart, so may hold sway over other jurors. They do tend somewhat conservative, but not strongly enough usually to make the difference.

Not my reason for always booting them.  Their brains are wired to only recognize 100% right as being a standard. You do not build bridges thinking that a 51% chance of strong supports is good enough. And so when the judge instructs them you have to find for the plaintiff if they prove more likely than not (51%), they will always refuse to find for the plaintiff unless their engineer brain finds an almost certain set of facts proving the case.   

It makes no difference what the law is or what the judge says - they are going to view it using their own unique, and perfectly reasonable for them, viewpoint. 

 

Edited April 2, 2023 by Gatorubet

[TwiceHorn 31,184]

24 minutes ago, Gatorubet said:

Not my reason for always booting them.  Their brains are wired to only recognize 100% right as being a standard. You do not build bridges thinking that a 51% chance of strong supports is good enough. And so when the judge instructs them you have to find for the plaintiff if they prove more likely than not (51%), they will always refuse to find for the plaintiff unless their engineer brain finds an almost certain set of facts proving the case.   

It makes no difference what the law is or what the judge says - they are going to view it using their own unique, and perfectly reasonable for them, viewpoint. 

 

Yeah good point.  A very wise engineer advised me before going to law school, "there is no right answer."

[achooloco 1,065]

2 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

I think you mean petit jury.

How so? I have a grand jury summons for mid April in queens county. Never heard of the term petit jury but I’ll defer to the more learned counselor. (And yes a bit tipsy at the moment)

[Willfully Horn 7,913]

Glad to know I’m not the only one with questions like this;

 

 

[NWBuck 8,543]

11 hours ago, RomaVicta said:

I don't want to see anyone tortured. Not even this fuck.

Agreed. 

Y'all are going to need to have that stuff happen off camera, thankyouverymuch 

[PenelopeWitherspoon 19,074]

6 hours ago, achooloco said:

Soooooo, the grand jury is sat and in Manhattan right? I only ask cause I have grand jury duty starting on April 12 in queens and while I think it is a civic duty to serve, it is just terrible work timing. But if I could wrangle a trump case…

figure either way a win win. Either I get dq for being a normal human that realizes trump is a PoS or I get our on his case and I have a hand in history. That said, pretty sure this is all Manhattan. But I do think I could be impartial on the facts; the cocksucker is devoid of deserving all sympathy but I want a conviction by the book. No room for error. Need some air tight no reasonable doubt to get that conviction cause you know the Magats will magat no matter what. Our only defense  for the republic is the rule of law. 

 

3 hours ago, achooloco said:

How so? I have a grand jury summons for mid April in queens county. Never heard of the term petit jury but I’ll defer to the more learned counselor. (And yes a bit tipsy at the moment)

That is Queens County.  Totally separate.  I, on the other hand, have jury duty this summer in New York county (Manhattan).  So, there is a shot I'd get the Trump case.  

[hookemATL 11,596]

3 hours ago, PenelopeWitherspoon said:

 

So, there is a shot I'd get the Trump case.  

[ohchaucer 1,443]

I’ve been following this closely - both news and these threads - but have two questions I don’t think have been addressed.

First, before indicting, does Bragg have to get higher sign off from any higher authority (US AG, etc)? Or is it sole discretion? Or is he just executing the “decision” reached by the grand jury? I ask because the hand wringing about the ability to elevate the relatively obvious falsifying misdemeanor to felony election crime seems silly - somebody somewhere certainly thought the evidence is sufficient to convict before bringing a monumentally unprecedented (and career defining/ending) action to indict.

Second, why TF do these cases take so long? With all the motions and actions pretrial, I know they have to give fair and reasonable timelines to the various parties, but why is it on a months-and-months timescale vs “sure you can file that, you have until Friday” timescale?

[TwiceHorn 31,184]

7 hours ago, achooloco said:

How so? I have a grand jury summons for mid April in queens county. Never heard of the term petit jury but I’ll defer to the more learned counselor. (And yes a bit tipsy at the moment)

Well then, you're in for a bigger deal than maybe sitting on a trial/petit jury.  A grand jury doesn't try cases, it issues indictments.  I think service is voluntary, but you may be in for a six month, one-day-a-week commitment listening to evidence on prospective cases and issuing or declining to issue indictments.

Edited April 2, 2023 by TwiceHorn

[Neonmoon 38,127]

6 minutes ago, ohchaucer said:

I’ve been following this closely - both news and these threads - but have two questions I don’t think have been addressed.

First, before indicting, does Bragg have to get higher sign off from any higher authority (US AG, etc)? Or is it sole discretion? Or is he just executing the “decision” reached by the grand jury? I ask because the hand wringing about the ability to elevate the relatively obvious falsifying misdemeanor to felony election crime seems silly - somebody somewhere certainly thought the evidence is sufficient to convict before bringing a monumentally unprecedented (and career defining/ending) action to indict.

Second, why TF do these cases take so long? With all the motions and actions pretrial, I know they have to give fair and reasonable timelines to the various parties, but why is it on a months-and-months timescale vs “sure you can file that, you have until Friday” timescale?

I’m not a lawyer, but I did have sex in a holiday inn once 

1. The DA has sole discretion in his jurisdiction. The federal government (US DA) has no authority in state cases. I don’t know why you put decision in quotes but the grand jury voted to indict, and Bragg decided to move forward. Yes, it’s his sole discretion. Every singe case in the nation works this way. This isn’t out of the ordinary. He didn’t elevate a misdemeanor into a felony arbitrarily, the law was already posted above detailing the class E felony. 
 

2. 6th amendment guarantees a right to a speedy trial, not a right to a speedy investigation or grand jury indictment. But as to why there might be delays in a trial, the answer is lawyers. There could be a legitimate reason. It could be a strategy. There’s always incompetence. Lots of reasons. 

[ohchaucer 1,443]

He didn’t elevate a misdemeanor into a felony arbitrarily, the law was already posted above detailing the class E felony. 
 

Thanks Neon. Makes sense. And on the point above, I get that he didn’t arbitrarily elevate the charge or crime, I meant more broadly that he wouldn’t be haphazard about such a consequential indictment. Lots of the media seems to be suggesting this is a long-shot of a case, and while I know this is without precedent on many levels and has, on its surface, some clear hurdles, Bragg and the GJ must be seeing something pretty clearly worth the risk, so to speak.

Of course, I guess it always comes down to 12 of our peers, so god help us there….

[TwiceHorn 31,184]

23 minutes ago, ohchaucer said:

I’ve been following this closely - both news and these threads - but have two questions I don’t think have been addressed.

First, before indicting, does Bragg have to get higher sign off from any higher authority (US AG, etc)? Or is it sole discretion? Or is he just executing the “decision” reached by the grand jury? I ask because the hand wringing about the ability to elevate the relatively obvious falsifying misdemeanor to felony election crime seems silly - somebody somewhere certainly thought the evidence is sufficient to convict before bringing a monumentally unprecedented (and career defining/ending) action to indict.

Second, why TF do these cases take so long? With all the motions and actions pretrial, I know they have to give fair and reasonable timelines to the various parties, but why is it on a months-and-months timescale vs “sure you can file that, you have until Friday” timescale?

No, he's the final authority in Manhattan.

The courts are overloaded.  A single criminal court may receive up to 1000 case filings a year.  That court optimistically can conduct 52 trials a year.  The other 950 cases get resolved by plea bargain or dismissal or are carried over to the next year.  

So, notwithstanding motion deadlines and reasonable periods to prepare cases, a court can't possibly get to a decision point on any reasonable number of cases in a year.  There are speedy trial acts that require a case be tried within a certain period of time, but their application is waived in the vast majority of cases because it is more often in the defendants' interest to delay than to have a speedy trial.

Every jurisdiction in the country needs moar judges, moar courtrooms, and moar prosecuting attorneys.  But these things cost money that legislatures and voters don't want to commit.  The systems run at a fairly steady state, but this is one of the main drivers of injustice in the system.

So, yes, to some degree it is lawyers.  But the other answer, the bigger answer, is basically staring back at you in the mirror.

Edited April 2, 2023 by TwiceHorn

[TheStoicPaisano 9,904]

If I said I give Trump 🖕🏼 , would I get booted?

Edited April 2, 2023 by TheStoicPaisano

[ohchaucer 1,443]

I’d pay about three-fitty to see this dick licker behind bars by summer.

[WhatTheBuck 28,700]

14 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

No, he's the final authority in Manhattan.

The courts are overloaded.  A single criminal court may receive up to 1000 case filings a year.  That court optimistically can conduct 52 trials a year.  The other 950 cases get resolved by plea bargain or dismissal or are carried over to the next year.  

So, notwithstanding motion deadlines and reasonable periods to prepare cases, a court can't possibly get to a decision point on any reasonable number of cases in a year.  There are speedy trial acts that require a case be tried within a certain period of time, but their application is waived in the vast majority of cases because it is more often in the defendants' interest to delay than to have a speedy trial.

Every jurisdiction in the country needs moar judges, moar courtrooms, and moar prosecuting attorneys.  But these things cost money that legislatures and voters don't want to commit.  The systems run at a fairly steady state, but this is one of the main drivers of injustice in the system.

So, yes, to some degree it is lawyers.  But the other answer, the bigger answer, is basically staring back at you in the mirror.

I heard reporting the other day that said things move particularly slowly in this particular court/jurisdiction/whatever and we might actually see a trial in the Georgia election meddling case or in the federal stolen documents or Jan. 6 insurrection case begin before this one does. 

[South Austin 52,037]

8 hours ago, Willfully Horn said:

Glad to know I’m not the only one with questions like this;

 

 

I guess that’s still funny two days later.

[TwiceHorn 31,184]

28 minutes ago, WhatTheBuck said:

I heard reporting the other day that said things move particularly slowly in this particular court/jurisdiction/whatever and we might actually see a trial in the Georgia election meddling case or in the federal stolen documents or Jan. 6 insurrection case begin before this one does. 

I'm having a hard time digging up NY state court stats, the numbers above are made up, but not out of line for a major metropolitan area.

The Trump Org tax fraud case was indicted in July 2021 and tried in October 2022.  That's swift to about right for a "high priority" case (it's hard to call any case high priority, really) with a defendant that will not plead.

 

[WhatTheBuck 28,700]

34 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

I'm having a hard time digging up NY state court stats, the numbers above are made up, but not out of line for a major metropolitan area.

The Trump Org tax fraud case was indicted in July 2021 and tried in October 2022.  That's swift to about right for a "high priority" case (it's hard to call any case high priority, really) with a defendant that will not plead.

 

All I know for sure is that Trump will employ every delay tactic available to him and I shouldn’t expect a speedy resolution in any of the cases against him.

The battery and defamation case being brought against him by his alleged rape victim E. Jean Carroll is scheduled to start on the 25th of this month so we’ll see how that goes.

[Beau Vine 53,964]

6 hours ago, PenelopeWitherspoon said:

I, on the other hand, have jury duty this summer in New York county (Manhattan).  So, there is a shot I'd get the Trump case.  

This would be the greatest thing ever.

[jimmyjazz 45,513]

16 hours ago, nbmishoid said:

Also, I understand keeping off engineers. Most are Magat.   

Not even close to true.  I'm an engineer, and I've worked with hundreds of them in my career.  I'd say the political distribution is probably equal between liberal/conservative/"libertarian" (so closer to 67/33 conservative/liberal if we are being honest, as most libertarians are just conservatives who don't want to admit it).

I suspect @Gatorubet nailed it as far as why engineers make bad jurors -- in general, we are looking for a black/white solution, and 51% is very unsettling.  That doesn't work in a court of law.

[Gatorubet 30,064]

2 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

I'm having a hard time digging up NY state court stats, the numbers above are made up, but not out of line for a major metropolitan area.

The Trump Org tax fraud case was indicted in July 2021 and tried in October 2022.  That's swift to about right for a "high priority" case (it's hard to call any case high priority, really) with a defendant that will not plead.

 

I’m not sure, but I think a New York State indictment is somewhat unique compared to the more familiar federal indictment process, in that the defendant has more avenues to challenge the basis for the indictment…meaning more pre-trial motions to file and appeal available in state court than in federal court.

Which is all to say the greater opportunity to file delaying motions will likely lead to trial being closer to a year away than this summer.

On a positive note, it may work out perfectly. The indictment by Bragg has lifted the reticence to indict a former sitting president, and if nothing else makes prosecutors in the other cases more comfortable bringing charges -  and potentially make the citizens sitting as grand jurors more comfortable that they are NOT the first people to do this.  Finally, as the New York case is probably weakest in substance that moves voters to think it was worth it, it is just as likely that the J6 and Georgia cases, while indicted after, will be tried before this case.  A felony conviction in those other cases may* be introduced against Trump in the New York case if he is stupid enough to testify. Which we all know he is.

*(honestly, I’m not sure off the top of my head if all appeals have to be exhausted before a prior felony can be disclosed, but it seems fairer to me to do that….)

[Covri 6,229]

14 hours ago, Gil Bang said:

Huntington Beach is the Florida of California, part infinity.  One could argue that it's the birthplace of Punk Rock, and now it's Trumpkin Central.

 

From the article, Officer Hardman, really? The Simulation has completely given up!

Edited April 2, 2023 by Covri

[TwiceHorn 31,184]

32 minutes ago, Gatorubet said:

I’m not sure, but I think a New York State indictment is somewhat unique compared to the more familiar federal indictment process, in that the defendant has more avenues to challenge the basis for the indictment…meaning more pre-trial motions to file and appeal available in state court than in federal court.

Which is all to say the greater opportunity to file delaying motions will likely lead to trial being closer to a year away than this summer.

On a positive note, it may work out perfectly. The indictment by Bragg has lifted the reticence to indict a former sitting president, and if nothing else makes prosecutors in the other cases more comfortable bringing charges -  and potentially make the citizens sitting as grand jurors more comfortable that they are NOT the first people to do this.  Finally, as the New York case is probably weakest in substance that moves voters to think it was worth it, it is just as likely that the J6 and Georgia cases, while indicted after, will be tried before this case.  A felony conviction in those other cases may* be introduced against Trump in the New York case if he is stupid enough to testify. Which we all know he is.

*(honestly, I’m not sure off the top of my head if all appeals have to be exhausted before a prior felony can be disclosed, but it seems fairer to me to do that….)

I have seen the same thing in that NY permits inquiry into the grand jury's basis for the indictment, which I don't think is the case in most places.

I was unaware that one can actually remove a CRIMINAL case from state to federal court.  https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/28/1455

That fuckstick is going to try every dilatory tactic in the book, of course.  And, it is generally thought that delay favors criminal defendants.  But a lot of that has to do with crimes occurring in the more typical criminal milieu, where underworld/underclass witnesses have a tendency to disappear, cops get indicted or otherwise discredited for corruption, etc. etc.

[F250 28,659]

37 minutes ago, Covri said:

From the article, Officer Hardman, really? The Simulation has completely given up!

Is this gay porn?

[Captainant 27,311]

29 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

That fuckstick is going to try every dilatory tactic in the book, of course.  And, it is generally thought that delay favors criminal defendants.  But a lot of that has to do with crimes occurring in the more typical criminal milieu, where underworld/underclass witnesses have a tendency to disappear, cops get indicted or otherwise discredited for corruption, etc. etc.

I mean, trumpco IS interfering with witness testimony and we've seen multiple LEO's ensnared by the legal action against trump for their hand in the corrupt activity - I think analyzing his actions through the lens of a run of the mill criminal will give better insights than if we treat him as some savvy operator

[Covri 6,229]

6 minutes ago, F250 said:

Is this gay porn?

Now that you mention it, they did have a lot of cameras present….

 

 

 

[SizzleChest 8,275]

43 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

I have seen the same thing in that NY permits inquiry into the grand jury's basis for the indictment, which I don't think is the case in most places.

I was unaware that one can actually remove a CRIMINAL case from state to federal court.  https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/28/1455

That fuckstick is going to try every dilatory tactic in the book, of course.  And, it is generally thought that delay favors criminal defendants.  But a lot of that has to do with crimes occurring in the more typical criminal milieu, where underworld/underclass witnesses have a tendency to disappear, cops get indicted or otherwise discredited for corruption, etc. etc.

He's hoping Weisselberg kicks, assuming he did flip.

[Deej 76,511]

9 hours ago, PenelopeWitherspoon said:

 

That is Queens County.  Totally separate.  I, on the other hand, have jury duty this summer in New York county (Manhattan).  So, there is a shot I'd get the Trump case.  

Might want to have Immamac delete your posting history.

[South Austin 52,037]

1 minute ago, Deej said:

Might want to have Immamac delete your posting history.

And ask Elon to do the same with her tweets.

[Lurch 5,919]

Should we merge this thread with Pathetic Man thread? @immamac

[Francisco 2.0 32,290]

14 minutes ago, SizzleChest said:

He's hoping Weisselberg kicks, assuming he did flip.

 

[Gatorubet 30,064]

I bet I could sell some “TRUMP IS AS INNOCENT AS HIS KIDS” t-shirts without them figuring it out. 

[nbmishoid 930]

3 hours ago, jimmyjazz said:

Not even close to true.  I'm an engineer, and I've worked with hundreds of them in my career.  I'd say the political distribution is probably equal between liberal/conservative/"libertarian" (so closer to 67/33 conservative/liberal if we are being honest, as most libertarians are just conservatives who don't want to admit it).

I suspect @Gatorubet nailed it as far as why engineers make bad jurors -- in general, we are looking for a black/white solution, and 51% is very unsettling.  That doesn't work in a court of law.

I was thinking most PE’s.   A biased sample, pun intended.  As for black and white thinking, I can see that for conventional civil and mechanical types. But for those who are soaked in probabilistic type modeling and decision processes, not at all black and white, quite the opposite.  

[jimmyjazz 45,513]

1 minute ago, nbmishoid said:

I was thinking most PE’s.   A biased sample, pun intended.  As for black and white thinking, I can see that for conventional civil and mechanical types. But for those who are soaked in probabilistic type modeling and decision processes, not at all black and white, quite the opposite.  

"PE" meaning "petroleum engineer" or "Professional Engineer"?  Because the latter would tilt very heavily to civil, then mechanical.

[Neonmoon 38,127]

35 minutes ago, Gatorubet said:

I bet I could sell some “TRUMP IS AS INNOCENT AS HIS KIDS” t-shirts without them figuring it out. 

I bet I could sell “Trump is Jesus” t-shirts without them figuring it out 

[nbmishoid 930]

Yes, Petroleum.  And with the CE’s and ME’s I simply meant working with precisely known forces, dimensions, strengths etc leads to quite certain outcomes.  Not having enough fundamental knowns,  and having to run a thousand models to catch the possible distribution of outcomes eventually disabuses one of using the word ‘certainty’.

[DDD Dad 14,167]

Engineering talk not going away.

[The Dog 43,771]

 

[Grade of D as in David 13,253]

Let's swap out that or for an and

[Longhorn_Fan68 33,825]

[AnTiM 1,656]

35 minutes ago, The Dog said:

 

So my math says if he violates the order a million times he will pay a billion dollars...a good start on what he has bilked people out of in his career.

[Chuckie Finster 22,583]

45 minutes ago, The Dog said:

 

Given the circumstance, "30 days in jail OR $1000" is an unintentionally hilarious punishment. 

[cactusflinthead 27,593]

 

[tx 3 putt 76,159]

55 minutes ago, The Dog said:

 

he should just pre pay $100,000 now 

[Pato del Muerto 52,322]

9 minutes ago, cactusflinthead said:

 

This should be like a colonel jessup line of questioning: if you know that they are your documents, why would you not admit to showing them to donors?  You can do what you want with your own property, right?

[tx 3 putt 76,159]

the grift never ends 

[Francisco 2.0 32,290]

32 minutes ago, tx 3 putt said:

he should just pre pay $100,000 now 

 

See, that is going to be the grift email later tonight/tomorrow:

 

"Patriot, act now and donate so that YOUR PRESIDENT can speak freely, because that Godless DA is INFRINGING upon President Trump's Free Speech Rights"

Edited April 2, 2023 by Francisco 2.0