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[David Dennison 18646]

1 hour ago, Biff Tannen said:

And he might be the next president.

[seven 1366]

6 hours ago, Your Mom said:

74% seems high there.  It has to be less than half by now doesn’t it?  

I think it's down around there for organized religion but there are many non practicing people who still believe in a "higher power" of some kind. I would say 50% of my little liberal bubble of friends would identify this way.

Also the ghost people have to be a 90% overlap with the god people right? 

Edited August 8, 2023 by seven

[TwiceHorn 31241]

7 hours ago, Hermanator said:

Which is exactly why he should be detained in jail and deprived of access to social media while awaiting trial. All the reasons are there the judiciary is just too scared. Can't shy away from racism. It only gets worse. 

People in the United States are not detained pretrial because of pretrial publicity they generate, no matter how bad.

That really would be a First Amendment violation.

What happens in the United States is that a defendant runs his or her mouth, eventually gets a gag order from the judge, gets fined for violating it in increasing amounts, and maybe ultimately jailed for a short period, possibly repeatedly.

 

[PenelopeWitherspoon 19092]

8 hours ago, Biff Tannen said:

Most Republicans are morons.  Water is wet.  

[Francisco 2.0 32313]

16 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

What happens in the United States is that a defendant runs his or her mouth, eventually gets a gag order from the judge, gets fined for violating it in increasing amounts, and maybe ultimately jailed for a short period, possibly repeatedly.

Counterpoint:  The United States has faced several vile, deranged, dangerous and damaging pieces of shit as defendants throughout the years.  They have never faced Donald J. Trump and his sizable cult of personality, consisting of well over half of a political party, members of the judiciary, several media outlets, a public willing to bankroll his legal costs and his own means of dissemination of his words (Truth).  

 

 

 

 

[TwiceHorn 31241]

Good piece on the Nauta/Woodward conflict-of-interest issue. https://thehill.com/opinion/criminal-justice/4140372-trumps-facing-more-than-one-conflict-in-his-classified-documents-case/

This is the good observation:

Quote

Let’s put it this way: Woodward is unquestionably an honorable lawyer. I do not doubt that he has obtained Nauta’s formal consent to his representation, following extensive disclosure, which Nauta will confirm in court. Conflicts of interest, however, often have their greatest impact below the surface, subtly distorting judgment, clouding insights and blunting acuity, in ways that the lawyers and clients themselves do not appreciate or perceive. 

That is a very real thing, before you even get to the issue of Trump paying all the witnesses' attorneys fees.

But a subtext that I think the right is going to blow up soon is that it may take Woodward off Nauta's case and increase the likelihood that he flips, which is apparently what happened with Yuscil Taveras.  That could be a very real motivation of the government here to pursue this.

The sort of amusing thing here is that the conflict of interest issue does deprive Nauta of the "lawyer of his choice," but it never really was his choice to begin with.

[TwiceHorn 31241]

5 minutes ago, Francisco 2.0 said:

Counterpoint:  The United States has faced several vile, deranged, dangerous and damaging pieces of shit as defendants throughout the years.  They have never faced Donald J. Trump and his sizable cult of personality, consisting of well over half of a political party, members of the judiciary, several media outlets, a public willing to bankroll his legal costs and his own means of dissemination of his words (Truth).  

 

 

 

 

As tempting as it may be to change the rules for a piece of shit like Donald Trump, that's not how it works:

No Bill of Attainder or ex post facto Law shall be passed.

[wildcat09 29213]

10 hours ago, Rimbo said:

Fallacious question. He's never been indicted on federal criminal charges before. So the answer is "never." But then, for the same reason, he's never gotten away with it, either.

He’s actually been getting away with crimes his entire life.

[TwiceHorn 31241]

Also a bit of an explainer/recap on the grand jury thing in the Mar A Lago case.

Remember, this all started as a dispute with NARA over Presidential Records.  Trump finally coughed up the 15 boxes and NARA discovered the classified information, which it then immediately turned over to the National Security Division at DOJ, because even NARA has no business holding classified information.  NARA and NSD are in DC.

DOJ then used a DC grand jury to issue a subpoena for any remaining documents, and we know how that went.

It seems like the DC grand jury may also have issued the subpoenas for the surveillance video, but we don't know for sure.

At some point, the investigation shifted from DC to SD Fla and the indictment was ultimately returned by a grand jury in SD Fla.  I'm pretty sure that means that the Floriduh grand jury heard testimony from all the witnesses of the facts set out in that indictment.  Maybe some transcripts from DC proceedings were used in lieu of live witness testimony, I don't know.

As has been discussed, the investigative ability of a grand jury typically terminates upon issuing an indictment in a case.  For example, the defendant in a case comes up with a new witness.  The government can't drag that witness before a grand jury just to get their testimony under oath before trial. 

An exception exists when new charges and/or defendants may be added to the case by a superseding indictment.  That process presumably would return to the original indicting grand jury, assuming it is still empaneled (grand juries expire periodically and are dissolved).   I suppose the line gets blurry sometimes as to whether the government is using a grand jury to investigate new charges/defendants versus investigating an already-indicted case, with the latter being at least somewhat "dirty pool" if not flat unlawful.

The issue appears to be that in the Woodward/Nauta thing, testimony from Woodward-represented witnesses before a DC grand jury was cited to show the conflict of interest with Nauta, thus raising an issue perhaps of the government "forum-shopping" the investigating grand jury between DC and Florida.

The grand jury rules and statutes don't appear to address this situation, that I can find, and cursory research hasn't yielded any case law on it.  So, I have no idea what's legit and what's not.  Guess we're finna find out by the briefing.

Hopefully, it's completely on the up and up and the government can justify its actions.  But prepare your anus for a lot of shrieking from Trumpco.

Edited August 8, 2023 by TwiceHorn

[Captainant 27408]

30 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

Hopefully, it's completely on the up and up and the government can justify its actions.  But prepare your anus for a lot of shrieking from Trumpco.

Sure is fortunate for trumpco that a fedsoc baby judge that's either an idiot or a hack with only four criminal jury verdicts on her judicial record just so happens to get this case of such gravity! It sure would be nice if the judge tamped down on the trumpco shrieking instead of stoking and legitimizing that dumpster fire, but alas. 

[TwiceHorn 31241]

13 minutes ago, Captainant said:

Sure is fortunate for trumpco that a fedsoc baby judge that's either an idiot or a hack with only four criminal jury verdicts on her judicial record just so happens to get this case of such gravity! It sure would be nice if the judge tamped down on the trumpco shrieking instead of stoking and legitimizing that dumpster fire, but alas. 

As a matter of perspective, baby judges exist and sometimes you get em.  It's just reality.  And there are super-shitty non-baby judges too, and sometimes you get them.

I'm not sure even non-shitty, non-baby, non-partisan judges feel like they can tamp down on extrajudicial shrieking.  You don't see it from Engoron in Manhattan.  You probably won't see much of it from Chutkan, either.

[Captainant 27408]

5 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

I'm not sure even non-shitty, non-baby, non-partisan judges feel like they can tamp down on extrajudicial shrieking.  You don't see it from Engoron in Manhattan.  You probably won't see much of it from Chutkan, either.

You also don't see those judges giving trumpco their preferred argument to dismiss the matter, and those other judges don't have a very real and recent history of judicially overstepping their authority to benefit defendant trump. 

I don't think we're going to see nearly the same degree of shrieking from Chutkan because he's not going to give oxygen and legitimacy to trumpco. Aileen has, is, and will continue to okeydoke trumpco. We just can't ascertain if it's because she's an inexperienced noob in over her head, or if it's a continuation of her past behavior. 

Either way, it is abundantly clear that her presiding over this case was the most favorable possible placement for trump. Weird how that keeps happening in fascist florida 

[DDD Dad 14243]

12 minutes ago, Captainant said:

You also don't see those judges giving trumpco their preferred argument to dismiss the matter, and those other judges don't have a very real and recent history of judicially overstepping their authority to benefit defendant trump. 

I don't think we're going to see nearly the same degree of shrieking from Chutkan because he's not going to give oxygen and legitimacy to trumpco. Aileen has, is, and will continue to okeydoke trumpco. We just can't ascertain if it's because she's an inexperienced noob in over her head, or if it's a continuation of her past behavior. 

Either way, it is abundantly clear that her presiding over this case was the most favorable possible placement for trump. Weird how that keeps happening in fascist florida 

I dunno about that. Judges often telegraph their thoughts/leanings. Sometimes more obviously than others. It doesn’t mean they’ve chosen a side necessarily; it usually just offers a window into what’s on their minds. 

Edited August 8, 2023 by DDD Dad

[Horn Dog 9671]

2 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

People in the United States are not detained pretrial because of pretrial publicity they generate, no matter how bad.

That really would be a First Amendment violation.

What happens in the United States is that a defendant runs his or her mouth, eventually gets a gag order from the judge, gets fined for violating it in increasing amounts, and maybe ultimately jailed for a short period, possibly repeatedly.

 

The more I think about it, the more I believe Trump's strategy(??) is to eventually be thrown in jail pretrial.  This will feed his narrative that he is being treated "so unfairly" and that the judge is crooked and an Anti-trumper.  He will keep pushing the envelope and the judge will give him as much leash as possible, but eventually the judge will have her hand forced and she will have to react.  Then the howling from Trump and the right will kick into overdrive and Fox/NewsMax will eat it up and 30-45% of the country will believe it.   This will introduce a component of chaos into the election which Trump hopes will change the game.   It is idiotic, but kinda smart considering the 96% chance he is convicted if he just follows the rules.  

[The Dog 43785]

13 minutes ago, Horn Dog said:

The more I think about it, the more I believe Trump's strategy(??) is to eventually be thrown in jail pretrial.  This will feed his narrative that he is being treated "so unfairly" and that the judge is crooked and an Anti-trumper.  He will keep pushing the envelope and the judge will give him as much leash as possible, but eventually the judge will have her hand forced and she will have to react.  Then the howling from Trump and the right will kick into overdrive and Fox/NewsMax will eat it up and 30-45% of the country will believe it.   This will introduce a component of chaos into the election which Trump hopes will change the game.   It is idiotic, but kinda smart considering the 96% chance he is convicted if he just follows the rules.  

 Trump does not want to go to jail for any length of time. 

His defense strategy is to delay everything until after the election so that if he wins he can pardon himself. In fact, the entire reason he's running is to avoid jail. 

That's it.

[locodos 5330]

7 minutes ago, The Dog said:

 Trump does not want to go to jail for any length of time. 

His defense strategy is to delay everything until after the election so that if he wins he can pardon himself. In fact, the entire reason he's running is to avoid jail. 

That's it.

That's just a french benefit!

He wants his ego stroked and to play at being a great man on the world stage.

[Hermanator 6930]

3 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

People in the United States are not detained pretrial because of pretrial publicity they generate, no matter how bad.

That really would be a First Amendment violation.

What happens in the United States is that a defendant runs his or her mouth, eventually gets a gag order from the judge, gets fined for violating it in increasing amounts, and maybe ultimately jailed for a short period, possibly repeatedly.

 

People are detained pre trial all the time if they pose a danger to the public and/or if they're a flight risk and Donald Trump meets both of those criteria. He's sending veiled threats to the prosecutor and egging his supporters to commit violence just like how he did before 1/6. That's posing a danger to public. He should be detained but they don't have the balls to do it. I doubt they have the balls even if he violates a protective order. 

[Hermanator 6930]

18 minutes ago, The Dog said:

 Trump does not want to go to jail for any length of time. 

His defense strategy is to delay everything until after the election so that if he wins he can pardon himself. In fact, the entire reason he's running is to avoid jail. 

That's it.

Exactly. He wants to delay the trials as long as possible and doesn't want to be sitting in jail that entire time. He just knows the DOJ doesn't have it in them to risk the outcry from his brainwashed idiots if he gets detained pre trial so he's not even concerned about it. 

[Chopper 17150]

Anyone have/seen some good informed speculation about why Judge Chutkan called for a hearing about the proposed protective order instead of simply ordering it from the bench, as Special Counsel had requested both in their motion and in their response?

The only guess I have, and it's a wag, is that she wants the opportunity to make it absolutely crystal clear to the defendant what the sanctions may be for violating it. (edited to add - in a way that would have been difficult in a written ruling)

Edited August 8, 2023 by Chopper

[TwiceHorn 31241]

7 minutes ago, Chopper said:

Anyone have/seen some good informed speculation about why Judge Chutkan called for a hearing about the proposed protective order instead of simply ordering it from the bench, as Special Counsel had requested both in their motion and in their response?

The only guess I have, and it's a wag, is that she wants the opportunity to make it absolutely crystal clear to the defendant what the sanctions may be for violating it. (edited to add - in a way that would have been difficult in a written ruling)

Good question, yeah, protective order questions are usually resolved on the briefing, as are most things in federal court.

She did short-circuit the motion/response time, which is usually 14 days, so maybe mitigating that by having a hearing.

[TwiceHorn 31241]

39 minutes ago, Hermanator said:

People are detained pre trial all the time if they pose a danger to the public and/or if they're a flight risk and Donald Trump meets both of those criteria. He's sending veiled threats to the prosecutor and egging his supporters to commit violence just like how he did before 1/6. That's posing a danger to public. He should be detained but they don't have the balls to do it. I doubt they have the balls even if he violates a protective order. 

The government has yet to contend that he's a flight risk in either of the two cases, and neither has Bragg.  Presumably because he's an election candidate and he thinks that's his best defense.

Danger to the public is a fairly illegitimate goal of pretrial detention to begin with, although it's used as a justification all the time.  We should know by now that speech has a long, long way to go before it is deemed a danger to the public.  Attempting to detain Trump pretrial on the basis of his speeches would be an absolute shit show, and probably rightfully.

Give him enough rope, though, and he might hang himself.

[SydneyCarton 47836]

1 hour ago, The Dog said:

 Trump does not want to go to jail for any length of time. 

His defense strategy is to delay everything until after the election so that if he wins he can pardon himself. In fact, the entire reason he's running is to avoid jail. 

That's it.

That's part of it. But I also believe at this point that he trult believes he deserves and will be the first King of America. He actually thinks he's going to transform this country into his fiefdom. 

[Biff Tannen 45491]

1 hour ago, SydneyCarton said:

That's part of it. But I also believe at this point that he trult believes he deserves and will be the first King of America. He actually thinks he's going to transform this country into his fiefdom. 

And he may not be wrong

[The Dog 43785]

28 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

The government has yet to contend that he's a flight risk in either of the two cases, and neither has Bragg.  Presumably because he's an election candidate and he thinks that's his best defense.

 

As long as he has secret service protection he's not a flight risk. 

[tx 3 putt 76296]

19 minutes ago, The Dog said:

As long as he has secret service protection he's not a flight risk. 

his detail is loyal to trump, not the secret service or this country 

[tx 3 putt 76296]

21 minutes ago, SydneyCarton said:

That's part of it. But I also believe at this point that he trult believes he deserves and will be the first King of America. He actually thinks he's going to transform this country into his fiefdom. 

 

 

[The Dog 43785]

1 minute ago, tx 3 putt said:

his detail is loyal to trump, not the secret service or this country 

His "detail" are employees of the United States Secret Service. Stop this shit.

[GhostOfTomJoad 9306]

That's part of it. But I also believe at this point that he trult believes he deserves and will be the first King of America. He actually thinks he's going to transform this country into his fiefdom. 

This, plus he now has a better understanding of the monetary value of the assets at his fingertips as POTUS and how a 2nd chance would make him a billionaire a hundred times over.

[Longhorn_Fan68 33831]

18 minutes ago, Biff Tannen said:

And he may not be wrong

[wildcat09 29213]

24 minutes ago, The Dog said:

His "detail" are employees of the United States Secret Service. Stop this shit.

You say that like it means they're exemplary characters. 

[Rimbo 25766]

5 hours ago, wildcat09 said:

He’s actually been getting away with crimes his entire life.

Really?

Show me the indictments on criminal charges that he's gotten away with.

Name the cases.

I'll wait.

[Rimbo 25766]

14 hours ago, TheStoicPaisano said:

YMCA

 

I can, and probably have, fapped to this.

If you know, you know.

 

1 hour ago, SydneyCarton said:

That's part of it. But I also believe at this point that he trult believes he deserves and will be the first King of America. He actually thinks he's going to transform this country into his fiefdom. 

 

That's not just his goal. It's the GOP's goal. They've become a party centered around one man, and they know that they will never win another national election unless they take drastic action. So they're taking drastic action.

[wildcat09 29213]

10 minutes ago, Rimbo said:

Really?

Show me the indictments on criminal charges that he's gotten away with.

Name the cases.

I'll wait.

Not having been indicted for the many many crimes he's committed is actually how he's gotten away with them.

[PenelopeWitherspoon 19092]

12 minutes ago, Rimbo said:

Really?

Show me the indictments on criminal charges that he's gotten away with.

Name the cases.

I'll wait.

Well, tax evasion, fraud, and rape to name three.  Just because he has not been charged does not mean the crimes weren't committed.

[Rimbo 25766]

1 hour ago, wildcat09 said:

Not having been indicted for the many many crimes he's committed is actually how he's gotten away with them.

So they weren't actually crimes, then.

EDIT AAAAAAAAHHHH DELETE POST, NEG AWAY, BAN USER, THIS WAS STUPID

 

Unless you've got evidence to show for these that nobody's ever seen before.

1 hour ago, PenelopeWitherspoon said:

Well, tax evasion, fraud, and rape to name three.  Just because he has not been charged does not mean the crimes weren't committed.

I mean, he did lose the case on rape, no?

Edited August 8, 2023 by Rimbo
posted, then thought, rather than thought, then posted

[C-Man 27029]

2 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

The government has yet to contend that he's a flight risk in either of the two cases, and neither has Bragg.  Presumably because he's an election candidate and he thinks that's his best defense.

Danger to the public is a fairly illegitimate goal of pretrial detention to begin with, although it's used as a justification all the time.  We should know by now that speech has a long, long way to go before it is deemed a danger to the public.  Attempting to detain Trump pretrial on the basis of his speeches would be an absolute shit show, and probably rightfully.

Give him enough rope, though, and he might hang himself.

We should all be WISHING he'd just skip off to a foreign land, never to return again. It won't be as satisfying as seeing him rot in prison but at this point, I'll take what I can get.

[wildcat09 29213]

Is it really your argument that Trump has never committed any crimes except those that he's now being charged for (and I presume you believe his actions in Georgia for which charges seem imminent were crimes)?

Just now, C-Man said:

We should all be WISHING he'd just skip off to a foreign land, never to return again. It won't be as satisfying as seeing him rot in prison but at this point, I'll take what I can get.

I would probably laugh myself to death if he fled to Russia.

[jimmyjazz 45540]

3 minutes ago, Rimbo said:

So they weren't actually crimes, then.

Unless you've got evidence to show for these that nobody's ever seen before.

I mean, he did lose the case on rape, no?

Is this a bit?  

A crime doesn't require indictment to occur.  And, the rape case was civil.  The results do seem to go to the point that he raped her, which is . . . a crime.

[TwiceHorn 31241]

7 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

Not having been indicted for the many many crimes he's committed is actually how he's gotten away with them.

Yeah, that's why it ground my gears when Preet Bharara, among others, got self-righteous.  You had your chance mfers.  With Trump and a lot of others.

[PenelopeWitherspoon 19092]

21 minutes ago, Rimbo said:

So they weren't actually crimes, then.

Unless you've got evidence to show for these that nobody's ever seen before.

I mean, he did lose the case on rape, no?

Are you really this fucking dumb? 

[TwiceHorn 31241]

7 minutes ago, PenelopeWitherspoon said:

Are you really this fucking dumb? 

Well, as far as getting away with crimes once the judicial process is invoked, he's actually right.

I don't think Trump is or was alone in being unmolested by the criminal authorities on Manhattan island for the last 3-4 decades.  I'd kind of like to know why that is, in a little greater detail than "they didn't have the balls."

[wildcat09 29213]

Rimbo is about to get into an argument with 10 posters about how actually unsolved murders aren't crimes at all or something.

[jimmyjazz 45540]

5 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

Well, as far as getting away with crimes once the judicial process is invoked, he's actually right.

The guy is saying it's not a crime if it doesn't go to trial.  Please tell me you don't agree.

[PenelopeWitherspoon 19092]

2 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

Well, as far as getting away with crimes once the judicial process is invoked, he's actually right.

I don't think Trump is or was alone in being unmolested by the criminal authorities on Manhattan island for the last 3-4 decades.  I'd kind of like to know why that is, in a little greater detail than "they didn't have the balls."

Simple.  Money talks.  

[wildcat09 29213]

13 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

Well, as far as getting away with crimes once the judicial process is invoked, he's actually right.

I don't think Trump is or was alone in being unmolested by the criminal authorities on Manhattan island for the last 3-4 decades.  I'd kind of like to know why that is, in a little greater detail than "they didn't have the balls."

It's partly because he bought off Cy Vance. Before Vance he was probably buying off his predecessors, or threatening them via his mob ties.

[PenelopeWitherspoon 19092]

Just now, wildcat09 said:

It's partly because he bought off Cy Vance. Before Vance he was probably buying off his predecessors, or threatening them via his mob ties.

This.  As I said, Money talks.  

[Fudge Nuggets 19144]

8 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

The guy is saying it's not a crime if it doesn't go to trial.  Please tell me you don't agree.

Well actually, blah blah blah…

[The Dog 43785]

 

[Upgrayedd 5804]

18 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

Rimbo is about to get into an argument with 10 posters about how actually unsolved murders aren't crimes at all or something.

Cut @Rimbo some slack.  It’s been a little warm here.

[Gatorubet 30083]

2 hours ago, SydneyCarton said:

That's part of it. But I also believe at this point that he trult believes he deserves and will be the first King of America. He actually thinks he's going to transform this country into his fiefdom. 

Quote

His defense strategy is to delay everything until after the election so that if he wins he can pardon himself. In fact, the entire reason he's running is to avoid jail. 

Ya’ll do not credit the grift $ from him running enough.