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[Anastasis 23390]

The biggest doesn’t mean the best or the brightest, clearly. 

[Willfully Horn 7913]

13 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

The biggest doesn’t mean the best or the brightest, clearly. 

Aw. Things your wife said DID cheer you up. Bless her heart.

Edited November 15, 2023 by Willfully Horn

[Anastasis 23390]

4 minutes ago, Willfully Horn said:

Aw. Things your wife said DID cheer you up. Bless her heart.

now that is why this forum is great. In the midst of hand waving the long history of institutionalized corruption in our government because functional shitters are good, you get a dick joke. 

[Willfully Horn 7913]

57 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

now that is why this forum is great. In the midst of hand waving the long history of institutionalized corruption in our government because functional shitters are good, you get a dick joke. 

Hey, your wife is full of them. 

Meanwhile, don’t sleep on flood and erosion control, water supply, maintenance, traffic flow, fire and health related response, as well as attempting to civilize and instruct the newest among us. You dismiss so many lives. Must be something you are taught to do on your job.

Low class ingrate.

Edited November 15, 2023 by Willfully Horn

[Bozo_Casanova 26271]

11 hours ago, Anastasis said:

Thanks for the name drop. I do like they last line though. Has a “the real treasure is the friends we make along the way”vibe to it. Carry on. In the mean time I will really think about this notion that government bureaucracy is really a function of humanizing decency. 

I get it, I really do. But accelerationism is not the answer.

[Bozo_Casanova 26271]

6 hours ago, Anastasis said:

You two start an exchange about the "Deep State", bozo tags me in, I haven't used that term on this board other than quoting the people like you that evoke it, and then you start in with sewage management. "The largest political forum in the great state of Texas." 

 

But that’s the point- and more broadly, y’all are overthinking this.
There are certainly malign forces, bad incentives, systematic exclusionary hatreds and abuses, misguided and fucked up policy with armies to back it up and on and on. BUT there are no secret hands pulling the strings and directing traffic at the ground level.  In the United States, what we see is pretty much what we get. So when that one Republican  canvasser in Wisconsin or wherever refuses to put his thumb on the scale in 2016, he didn’t do it, because the fix was not in. Not yet. That’s what Is at risk. 

The insurgent outliers that you voted for in 2016 in the name of burning it all down talk about a deep state because they want to put one in place. They want to replace civil servants with ideologically screened patronage, and once done, that will filter down the line and we will regress to a previous era when you had to pay firemen to out out a fire at your house. 

This system you like to deride, where you get clean water and feel entitled to high integrity bridges because you pay taxes, or at the other end you can take free and mostly fair elections for granted, even in Texas - that is what is at stake.
So yes- sewage management (which is a triumphal innovation of representative government, btw) is the pinnacle of the deep state, and you can count on it because hundreds of people in your town do their jobs with nobody watching, and you can bitch all you want about the city council and it will still work. 

6 hours ago, Willfully Horn said:

I love this place.

[TwiceHorn 31240]

I used to think government was a complete bumbling bureaucracy, by its very nature.  But, people have pointed out that corporations are mostly bumbling bureaucracies, too, also by their very nature.  That nature, of course, being human nature.  So, we're all right on the bumbling bureaucracy score.

Corporations have one advantage (or disadvantage), though.  And that is, the number of stakeholders in any corporate decision or policy is relatively a lot lower than government, and, I think government does a better job of trying to accommodate its larger number of stakeholders.  The main stakeholder in a corporation being profit motive, of course, which can make things damned simple if you want to view them that way and many or most corps do.

Let me give a vivid example.  The US Patent & Trademark Office has had online filing for a really long time.  Like 20 years, way before court systems implemented it, and contemporaneously or earlier than other patent offices, including the "gold standard" European Patent Office, and the World Intellectual Property Organization.

When they went online, you uploaded pdf documents, as expected. But what then happened was clerks at the PTO printed those pdfs, scanned them, and uploaded them into the file maintenence system.  LOL WTF?  But then I came to understand that the PTO received protests from all those clerks that would immediately become unemployed (hundreds of them, maybe even thousands) if the electronic filings were automatically uploaded to the file maintenance system.  Plus, the printing out had the salutary function of providing an avenue by which the filings were reviewed for completeness (all pages there, all drawings, all legible, etc.).   And for a while, they maintained parallel paper files in case of technical glitches that might lose or corrupt electronic filings.  And in those early days of this type of technology, that was probably a smart thing to do.  Surprisingly, very few or no instances of galactic technical failure resulting in the loss/corruption of patent filings have occurred.

Over time, the PTO has moved to a more automated system where the uploads go directly into the file maintenance system.  But it has done so relatively gradually, minimizing the impact on those clerk people.

There were some other issues relating to making all patent documents available online in that there were cottage industries of people who made their living going over to the PTO and copying various documents for private attorneys and couriering them over.  So that was slow-rolled a bit, but less so because it wasn't government employees losing their jobs.  They wound up hiring one of the prime electronic contractors (that used to fax you patent documents in close to real time) to print and scan official patent documents.

So, this is an example of government being "absurdly inefficient."  But, you know what?  The USPTO is and almost always has been self-funded by user fees (Congress takes their revenue away and gives it back, less some).  So, this didn't really cost anyone any money (patent user fees have actually been going down). And the user experience has been comparatively fantastic.  And some people kept their jobs instead of just being laid off had a corporate bureaucracy made those decisions.

So, what I thought was complete government idiocy, at first, has a bit more nuance to it.

Edited November 15, 2023 by TwiceHorn

[Bozo_Casanova 26271]

btw @Brisketexan  Mike Flynn still has a pension and his freedom, and his brother still has a job because the people who make those decisions mostly respect the rules even if the Flynns don’t. That’s the Deep State, too. Food for thought.

[TwiceHorn 31240]

2 minutes ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

btw @Brisketexan  Mike Flynn still has a pension and his freedom, and his brother still has a job because the people who make those decisions mostly respect the rules even if the Flynns don’t. That’s the Deep State, too. Food for thought.

Quite the conundrum, isn't it?  A lot of the things we want to happen to these people for egregiously violating norms would themselves violate norms.  Yes, there are ways to differentiate "norm violating," but in broad principle, it is the same thing.

It's a variant of the "how do you contend with insanity" problem.  The first instinct may be with your own form of insanity, and there's some appeal to that.  But is it really the long-term right thing to do?  

[TwiceHorn 31240]

23 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

I used to think government was a complete bumbling bureaucracy, by its very nature.  But, people have pointed out that corporations are mostly bumbling bureaucracies, too, also by their very nature.  That nature, of course, being human nature.  So, we're all right on the bumbling bureaucracy score.

Corporations have one advantage (or disadvantage), though.  And that is, the number of stakeholders in any corporate decision or policy is relatively a lot lower than government, and, I think government does a better job of trying to accommodate its larger number of stakeholders.  The main stakeholder in a corporation being profit motive, of course, which can make things damned simple if you want to view them that way and many or most corps do.

Let me give a vivid example.  The US Patent & Trademark Office has had online filing for a really long time.  Like 20 years, way before court systems implemented it, and contemporaneously or earlier than other patent offices, including the "gold standard" European Patent Office, and the World Intellectual Property Organization.

When they went online, you uploaded pdf documents, as expected. But what then happened was clerks at the PTO printed those pdfs, scanned them, and uploaded them into the file maintenence system.  LOL WTF?  But then I came to understand that the PTO received protests from all those clerks that would immediately become unemployed (hundreds of them, maybe even thousands) if the electronic filings were automatically uploaded to the file maintenance system.  Plus, the printing out had the salutary function of providing an avenue by which the filings were reviewed for completeness (all pages there, all drawings, all legible, etc.).   And for a while, they maintained parallel paper files in case of technical glitches that might lose or corrupt electronic filings.  And in those early days of this type of technology, that was probably a smart thing to do.  Surprisingly, very few or no instances of galactic technical failure resulting in the loss/corruption of patent filings have occurred.

Over time, the PTO has moved to a more automated system where the uploads go directly into the file maintenance system.  But it has done so relatively gradually, minimizing the impact on those clerk people.

There were some other issues relating to making all patent documents available online in that there were cottage industries of people who made their living going over to the PTO and copying various documents for private attorneys and couriering them over.  So that was slow-rolled a bit, but less so because it wasn't government employees losing their jobs.  They wound up hiring one of the prime electronic contractors (that used to fax you patent documents in close to real time) to print and scan official patent documents.

So, this is an example of government being "absurdly inefficient."  But, you know what?  The USPTO is and almost always has been self-funded by user fees (Congress takes their revenue away and gives it back, less some).  So, this didn't really cost anyone any money (patent user fees have actually been going down). And the user experience has been comparatively fantastic.  And some people kept their jobs instead of just being laid off had a corporate bureaucracy made those decisions.

So, what I thought was complete government idiocy, at first, has a bit more nuance to it.

A recent addendum to this.  The PTO wants to move its system toward text-based document filing, so everything is immediately text-searchable, which makes a certain amount of sense. To date, their systems have been agnostic as to whether the pdfs uploaded were image- or text-based.

But somehow they let Microsoft weasel in and sell them on a docx encoding engine and they have proposed and required that filers upload docx files instead of pdfs, or even text-based pdf-A.  So, whatever you file gets run though that engine and the output is the official filing at the USPTO.

Docx started as a standard, but has gone increasingly proprietary to M$ since it's introduction/adoption.  So, there are valid concerns that anyone uploading a docx made with LibreOffice, etc. or even older versions of Word, may wind up with something corrupted or slightly different once it is run through M$'s encoding engine.  This is monumentally important, because a patent filer is "stuck" with whatever the PTO got on the filing date.

So, it appears that the PTO has been sold a bill of goods by M$ as to whether docx and their proprietary encoding engine are actually standard and not a move to get all patent practitioners to buy the latest version of Word.  But it is responding to user criticism and postponing, perhaps indefinitely, the docx filing requirement.

Corporate vs. government at work.

Edited November 15, 2023 by TwiceHorn

[High Plains Drifter 10970]

8 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

You know, maybe the most damning part of your haughty condemnation is that it shits all over the regular folks you claim to champion.
Here’s a simple question: which public employees save the most lives every year?

It’s not cops. Or firefighters. Or soldiers.

It’s the people who keep our water and sewer plants running. Safe, clean drinking water saves hundreds of thousands of lives a year right here in the US. So does basic sanitation. We have that thanks to a shitload of working class folks who keep those systems running. And engineers and managers who run the operation. And elected officials who allocate taxes and public resources to massive operations and capital projects. Not because those are cool, and get them on TV, or get them rich. But because providing drinking water and sanitary sewers is part of the job, and is a good thing to do. Really, we only notice them when they fail…which is very, very rarely.
You’re so intent on straddling your high horse and cantering about like an imperious dandy that you completely miss the boring reality of hard-working decent folks doing their thing (those people are called “the government,” by the way). Which surprises absolutely nobody around here.

 

I wonder how many of the J6 insurrectionists were waste water managers?

Take our the veterans and real estate agents and ex-cops, and who's left?

 

 

Edited November 15, 2023 by High Plains Drifter
whose, who's, whateverthefuck

[Bozo_Casanova 26271]

First they came for the waste managers, and I said nothing…

[atomheartbevo 89395]

1 minute ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

First they came for the waste managers, and I said nothing…

We would speak up for @Scheiss Meister

[aggie08 21414]

34 minutes ago, High Plains Drifter said:

 

I wonder how many of the J6 insurrectionists were waste water managers?

Take our the veterans and real estate agents and ex-cops, and who's left?

 

 

Current state politicians, retirees, and that one ex-Olympic swimmer dude. I think that literally covers everyone.

[Scheiss Meister 8398]

11 minutes ago, atomheartbevo said:

We would speak up for @Scheiss Meister

Thank you, kind sir.

[Anastasis 23390]

6 hours ago, Willfully Horn said:

You dismiss so many lives.

You are really slaying that imaginary dragon. 

56 minutes ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

The insurgent outliers that you voted for in 2016 in the name of burning it all down talk about a deep state because they want to put one in place. 

Take that delusion up with Willie.

58 minutes ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

There are certainly malign forces, bad incentives, systematic exclusionary hatreds and abuses, misguided and fucked up policy with armies to back it up and on and on. BUT there are no secret hands pulling the strings and directing traffic at the ground level.  In the United States, what we see is pretty much what we get.

Well there are certainly those things listed in the first sentence, and it takes only a cursory review of the 20th century to put the lie to the last sentence. As political power in this country has been consolidated we have enabled the worst of both individual and corporate actors under our flag. You are correct that there is no secret all powerful hand, real corruption requires an enabling system of good-meaning people steeped in the absolution of jingoism. Those letters to MLK telling him to off himself didn't write and mail themselves. The Church Committee wasn't a collective hallucination. The Nigerian uranium justification wasn't the work product of a secret hand directing traffic. All that shit requires a framework, a consolidation of power and control to materialize malign force, systematic abuse, misguided and fucked up policy with armies, etc. But we can easily dismiss that experience and those that pay attention to these things if we just redefine the components of that framework and focus on traffic lights and shitters. tHe DeEp sTaTE mAkES ThE pOo PoO gO aWay.    

[Steamboat1874 4032]

19 hours ago, Captainant said:

You don't need to hold office to lead a fascist movement. You simply need to continue to evade and dely and deny justice long enough to spark enough chaos to seize the moment. 

We are currently riding right down the middle of that track and heading towards a cliff. Every day we delay trumps accountability is another notch more dangerous 

Good post and very true.

[High Plains Drifter 10970]

31 minutes ago, atomheartbevo said:

We would speak up for @Scheiss Meister

 

 

He's the hero we need.

 

[Captainant 27403]

JFC whenever the resident death panelist drops by it's always a beating. Just contrarianism for the sake of it, and paired with an incredible ability to be intellectually dishonest to boot. 

[Gatorubet 30083]

9 minutes ago, Captainant said:

JFC whenever the resident death panelist drops by it's always a beating. Just contrarianism for the sake of it, and paired with an incredible ability to be intellectually dishonest to boot. 

Its his schtick.  He rewords your position into a sweeping generality, and then comes forward with his lucid specific examples of why you are wrong, barely holding back the tone poem that he is the intellectual spreading his wisdom pearls before the knuckle dragging swine.

While it’s tiring, he probably feels better about himself after it, and so kicks puppies less. 

['stache 21744]

13 hours ago, NAVY said:

Well this 1 in 5 thing just sucks. Not too surprised given depth of media segmentation along political lines. Even when Fox isn’t bending the truth super hard right, their advertisers sound alarm after alarm. Buy gold! The banks are collapsing! Protect your internets! Your house will burn down! 

The foresight to get rid of cable TV 15 years ago probably saved this vet. Well that and degrees from UT 

https://www.npr.org/2021/01/21/958915267/nearly-one-in-five-defendants-in-capitol-riot-cases-served-in-the-military

“Served in the military” is pretty meaningless. I’d bet a pizza that the vast majority (maybe every single one) was discharged at some point or were tolerated for 4 years doing bitch work because they weren’t capable of being promoted past, maybe, assistant drill instructor who teaches kids how to fold the bed sheets. Notice that none of them mentioned in the article has a title of note. There certainly needs to be more work on rooting out this type of scum from the military but I still believe that that top brass pride themselves on being apolitical when it comes to their jobs and all but a handful of morons among the rank and file are going to follow the chain of command. Any outliers can be dealt with internally. The joint chiefs aren’t going to authorize a military coup for a fat fuck who constantly insults soldiers and war heroes. I’d bet if he went too far, even as Commander and Chief, they’d say no or court martial his ass. Like if he had ordered them to nuke San Francisco after Pelosi’s sarcastic clap that made him look silly, they wouldn’t do it and would act against him if necessary. I truly believe that the actual military isn’t going to be the source of the countries downfall, it’ll be the gravy seals.

[texasdago 7552]

1 hour ago, High Plains Drifter said:

 

I wonder how many of the J6 insurrectionists were waste water managers?

Take our the veterans and real estate agents and ex-cops, and who's left?

 

 

Had to have been at least a couple of chiropractors and MLM practitioners in there.

[Macanudo 12925]

54 minutes ago, High Plains Drifter said:

 

He's the hero we need.

 

And the shit we get.

Just now, texasdago said:

Had to have been at least a couple of chiropractors and MLM practitioners in there.

Isn't that what realtors are?

[wildcat09 29213]

I always love when an arch-conservative uses the history of conservative abuses of governmental power wielded against leftists to justify his desired "burn it all down and replace it with the Church" politics. 

Edited November 15, 2023 by wildcat09

[texasdago 7552]

8 minutes ago, Macanudo said:

And the shit we get.

Isn't that what realtors are?

[Scheiss Meister 8398]

46 minutes ago, 'stache said:

“Served in the military” is pretty meaningless. I’d bet a pizza that the vast majority (maybe every single one) was discharged at some point or were tolerated for 4 years doing bitch work because they weren’t capable of being promoted past, maybe, assistant drill instructor who teaches kids how to fold the bed sheets. Notice that none of them mentioned in the article has a title of note. There certainly needs to be more work on rooting out this type of scum from the military but I still believe that that top brass pride themselves on being apolitical when it comes to their jobs and all but a handful of morons among the rank and file are going to follow the chain of command. Any outliers can be dealt with internally. The joint chiefs aren’t going to authorize a military coup for a fat fuck who constantly insults soldiers and war heroes. I’d bet if he went too far, even as Commander and Chief, they’d say no or court martial his ass. Like if he had ordered them to nuke San Francisco after Pelosi’s sarcastic clap that made him look silly, they wouldn’t do it and would act against him if necessary. I truly believe that the actual military isn’t going to be the source of the countries downfall, it’ll be the gravy seals.

Successful revolutions start from the top, not the bottom. The American Revolution happened because the landed, property owning class leaders sparked and led it, not Farmer Smith fresh from the fields.  PFC Snuffy and Sgt. Rock will follow, but they won't organize and lead a coup.  The Flynn brothers and others of their ilk in the officer ranks are the ones to keep an eye on.  They are the leaders who will take the lower ranks astray.

[dcbc 14398]

On 11/14/2023 at 11:39 PM, Brisketexan said:

The vast majority of your government is decent people doing decent things.

As a career state government employee, who always has tried to do his best and remembers why he got into this line of work in the first place (it wasn't to get rich), thank you.  There are a lot of us who still believe our role is an important one.  And while I happen to think the folks whose job it is to deliver clean, potable water to the rest of us are more important, we each have a role to play.

Edited November 17, 2023 by dcbc

[Bozo_Casanova 26271]

9 minutes ago, dcbc said:

As a career state government employee, who always has done his best and remembers why he got into this line of work in the first place (it wasn't to get rich), thank you.  There are a lot of us who still believe our role is an important one.  But I happen to think the folks whose job it is to deliver clean, potable water to the rest of us are more important.  But we each have a roll to play.

Thank you for your service and I mean that sincerely. 
Also, “role.”

[dcbc 14398]

3 minutes ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

Thank you for your service and I mean that sincerely. 
Also, “role.”

Thanks.  Do you mean what is my role?  Or it should be our respective roles?  I checked my spelling, which usually is atrocious.  And I got it right for once.

 

And I would never suggest that I am not well-compensated or that State benefits aren't good.  But I'll be working long past my otherwise young retirement age to put two kids through college versus many people in my field with comparable experience.  But I never have regretted my career path as a state employee.  It really is what I was meant to do.

Edited November 15, 2023 by dcbc

[Pato del Muerto 52336]

1 hour ago, High Plains Drifter said:

 

He's the hero we need.

 

Who are you???

I'm Scatman

(but think more like clayface in origin)

Edited November 15, 2023 by Pato del Muerto

[BamaATL 16592]

6 minutes ago, dcbc said:

As a career state government employee, who always has done his best and remembers why he got into this line of work in the first place (it wasn't to get rich), thank you.  There are a lot of us who still believe our role is an important one.  But I happen to think the folks whose job it is to deliver clean, potable water to the rest of us are more important.  But we each have a roll to play.

Being a local government employee is a tough job, not so much because the job (although I'm sure at times...), but because the way people treat them, which is frankly awful.  If you ever have to get a building permit, or go to zoning, while you wait in line you will see no shortage of this.  People think they have the right to be disrespectful, it's crazy.  I've always found, even if you disagree, being polite and respectful will get you a lot further, primarily because they are so unaccustomed to it (also its just the right way to do things).  God help you if you have to go a public meeting or hearing, it's non stop grievance and insanity.  In the end, thanks to you and everyone else that largely does thankless jobs many of us take fore granted.  

Also, thanks for checking in on what I am sure is one of your many vacation days.  

[Bozo_Casanova 26271]

1 hour ago, Anastasis said:

Well there are certainly those things listed in the first sentence, and it takes only a cursory review of the 20th century to put the lie to the last sentence. As political power in this country has been consolidated we have enabled the worst of both individual and corporate actors under our flag. You are correct that there is no secret all powerful hand, real corruption requires an enabling system of good-meaning people steeped in the absolution of jingoism. Those letters to MLK telling him to off himself didn't write and mail themselves.

If your point is that we need what MLK called “a true revolution of values” to redirect the enabling hand of well meaning people towards the service of a just and verdant world, I agree 100%. 
If your solution is to break the enabling hand of well meaning people so we can become a kleptocracy and each get in on the grift to the best of our ability, that is where we part. 

[dcbc 14398]

8 minutes ago, BamaATL said:

Being a local government employee is a tough job, not so much because the job (although I'm sure at times...), but because the way people treat them, which is frankly awful.  If you ever have to get a building permit, or go to zoning, while you wait in line you will see no shortage of this.  People think they have the right to be disrespectful, it's crazy.  I've always found, even if you disagree, being polite and respectful will get you a lot further, primarily because they are so unaccustomed to it (also its just the right way to do things).  God help you if you have to go a public meeting or hearing, it's non stop grievance and insanity.  In the end, thanks to you and everyone else that largely does thankless jobs many of us take fore granted.  

Also, thanks for checking in on what I am sure is one of your many vacation days.  

Thankfully, my interaction with the public is nonexistent.  And my vacation days and ability to take them are many.  I won't portray myself as a do-gooder who works under miserable conditions to fight the good fight.  I edited my post above to add that I'm fairly-compensated and have great benefits, but still take pride in my work, which I always remain mindful affects people's lives.  The nature of my job allows me to check in on Surly when my brain needs a break.  And with that, back to the grind.

Edited November 15, 2023 by dcbc

[Bozo_Casanova 26271]

6 minutes ago, dcbc said:

Thanks.  Do you mean what is my role?  Or it should be our respective roles?  I checked my spelling, which usually is atrocious.  And I got it right for once.

 

And I would never suggest that I am not well-compensated or that State benefits aren't good.  But I'll be working long past my otherwise young retirement age to put two kids through college versus many people in my field with comparable experience.  But I never have regretted my career path as a state employee.  It really is what I was meant to do.

“Role” refers to one’s position or function within a group, ie, “we all have a role to play”.
“Roll” as a noun refers to material in a ball or cylinder, and as a derivative of the second, a list or catalog of names- ie “voter rolls” or “roll call”

And your role, whatever it is, in the noble and essential if thankless, but rewarding service to the people of Texas is important and not taken for granted by me.

[BamaATL 16592]

1 minute ago, dcbc said:

Thankfully, my interactions with the public is nonexistent.  And my vacation days and ability to take them are many.  I won't portray myself as a do-gooder who works under miserable conditions to fight the good fight.  I edited my post above to add that I'm fairly-compensated and have great benefits, but still take pride in my work, which I realize affects people's lives.  The nature of my job allows me to check in on Surly when my brain needs a break.

The vacation stuff was just a cheap shot joke.  

[dcbc 14398]

1 minute ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

“Role” refers to one’s position or function within a group, ie, “we all have a role to play”.
“Roll” as a noun refers to material in a ball or cylinder, and as a derivative of the second, a list or catalog of names- ie “voter rolls” or “roll call”

And your role, whatever it is, in the noble and essential if thankless, but rewarding service to the people of Texas is important and not taken for granted by me.

Right.  I thought that's what I said.  

Oh, I got it right the first time.  My mind was on Thanksgiving the second time 'round.  Good catch.

[dcbc 14398]

2 minutes ago, BamaATL said:

The vacation stuff was just a cheap shot joke.  

It's twoo.  It's twoo.  I'm like the Nathan Arizona of Vacation Hours - More than I can handle.

[Beau Vine 53978]

11 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

The vast majority of your government is decent people doing decent things.

A lot of people need to read this:

[Scheiss Meister 8398]

2 minutes ago, dcbc said:

As a career state government employee, who always has done his best and remembers why he got into this line of work in the first place (it wasn't to get rich), thank you.  There are a lot of us who still believe our role is an important one.  But I happen to think the folks whose job it is to deliver clean, potable water to the rest of us are more important.

All of the worker bees at every level of government contributes to our civilization and standard of life in some form.  Roads must be maintained or our economy tanks.  Parks are essential to protecting wilderness and outdoor recreation areas for everyone.  Wildlife folks are essential to protecting fish and wildlife, both game and non-game.  There are people working to ensure that we have clean air, water, and soil so that we don't have to live in each other's shit and garbage.  Laws are enforced to protect these things plus everything that embodies "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness".  The people who do these things, as has been pointed out, are humans, with human frailties and foibles, but the overwhelming majority do their honest best.

I was once lectured at length by a libertarian relative who contends that all laws are unnecessary impediments to absolute personal freedom.  In his world there should be no environmental laws, we should let the free market work out what level of pollution we all must accept.  All roads would be toll ways to pay for their construction and maintenance, there would be no public education, no public utilities, no government at all, so that he could exercise his total freedom unconditionally, without any obligations to society.  He ranted about me being on the government tit my whole career and that I had a cushy job funded by poor, put upon taxpayers.  It was discouraging, but he's not why I did (recently retired) what I did, anyway.  I did it for my kids and their future, and all of those who do appreciate the work being done on their behalf.

I, too, was and am fairly compensated.  My job did have some leisurely days, and I got a very nice vacation package.  There were also long days and nights of work, and a lot of stress.  I know that a lot of people are in similar situations in both the public and the private sector, so that doesn't make me special.  I'm still proud of being a small part of something bigger than me that exists for a purpose other than just to move money from one account to another.

[Scheiss Meister 8398]

6 minutes ago, Beau Vine said:

A lot of people need to read this:

Thanks.  I'll order it today.

[RDCanecutter 26246]

47 minutes ago, Scheiss Meister said:

The Flynn brothers and others of their ilk in the officer ranks are the ones to keep an eye on.  They are the leaders who will take the lower ranks astray.

And you can't lock them up because they'll just chop themselves out using their hatchet faces.

[RDCanecutter 26246]

7 minutes ago, Scheiss Meister said:

a libertarian relative...  ranted...

No way.

[jimmyjazz 45538]

1 hour ago, wildcat09 said:

I always love when an arch-conservative "Libertarian" uses the history of conservative abuses of governmental power wielded against leftists to justify his desired "burn it all down and replace it with the Church" politics. 

FIFY

[wildcat09 29213]

Ana is libertarian like Bill Clinton is monogamous. 

[Rimbo 25766]

2 hours ago, Captainant said:

JFC whenever the resident death panelist drops by it's always a beating. Just contrarianism for the sake of it, and paired with an incredible ability to be intellectually dishonest to boot. 

y'all know the board has an ignore feature, right?

[jimmyjazz 45538]

7 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

Ana is libertarian like Bill Clinton is monogamous. 

Hence the air quotes.  

[Judge Roybeanbag 11802]

Just as an aside, it's pretty much universally agreed among health scientists that modern sanitary sewer and water systems have been the single most important factor in increasing life expectancy over the past 150 years.  By far.   Just thought I'd through that shit out there.

 

[Gatorubet 30083]

8 minutes ago, Judge Roybeanbag said:

Just as an aside, it's pretty much universally agreed among health scientists that modern sanitary sewer and water systems have been the single most important factor in increasing life expectancy over the past 150 years.  By far.   Just thought I'd through that shit out there.

 

[tbone_ 14020]

All the benefits from not having actual open sewers anymore will be more than undone by the virtual open sewers online.

[YGIFS 19449]

You guys are calling the shit; poop!!!