Guilty Guilty Guilty Guilty Guilty Guilty Guilty Guilty Guilty Guilty Guilty Guilty Guilty Guilty Guilty Guilty Guilty Guilty Guilty Guilty Guilty Guilty Guilty Guilty Guilty Guilty Guilty Guilty Guilty Guilty Guilty Guilty Guilty Guilty

[TwiceHorn 31241]

3 hours ago, wildcat09 said:

Sure, let's look at her extensive pattern of behaving exactly like you would expect a Trump lackey whom he has paid off to behave, rather than a serious federal judge. You can't seriously think that it's "wild speculation" to think she'll delay the trial date. It's not like there's nothing to reasonably base that belief on.  

You seem to see it as your duty to defend her (apparently as the most laughably stupid and incompetent judge to ever sit the bench) since nobody else here will, and that's obviously up to you, but don't act as if there aren't many good reasons for intelligent people who know the legal profession (either as lawyers or more-than-casual observers) to think she's in the tank for Trump.

We really don't have to belabor this any more. 

[RomaVicta 29769]

On 11/22/2023 at 11:45 AM, Red Five said:

I would think that when the front runner for President of the United States is accused of a shitload of extremely serious crimes, it's probably best to get that trial squeezed in prior to the, you know, presidential election. That is still a year away. But hey, not a lawyer or judge.

When it comes to indictments while in office, he's president and gets special treatment. When he is taken down to the hoosegow for printing and processing, he gets the special treatment because he's an ex-president. When he's accused of crimes that threaten the security of the US, he doesn't get incarcerated to disable his ability to plot against the US or just sell us out, well, we all know that it's a big unprecedented step to jail an ex-president. 

Now, when it comes to trial where the charges represent profound threats to the US and its democratic processes, he's a regular Joe and nothing special can be done. Judges can delay or just allow the grinding slow process work out the way it does for everyone. Unprecedented alleged criminal activities performed by an ex-president cannot be prioritized.

This scoundrel incites followers to intimidate witnesses and representatives of the law, he can't be put in jail because we just don't do that to ex-presidents.

It just seems crazier and crazier that all of this is going on, and there is no general response to this malefactor for all sorts of alarming reasons.

• Most people don't care enough to pay close attention.
• Those paying attention and who oppose Trump do not recognize the paradigm shift that makes this remarkably outside the bounds of traditional conflicts thus they do not adjust their own actions to fit the new paradigm.
• Those supporting Trump are astonishingly immune to reason or truth. They embrace the new paradigm. Enemies are to be destroyed because they are vermin socialist fellow citizens who endanger the soul of this, the greatest country the world has ever known.

In summary, execution may be the best way to go.

Edited November 26, 2023 by RomaVicta

[Fastbreak 3956]

How is he allowed to travel to Argentina?

[Degenerate Gardner 4081]

4 hours ago, BearSchlong said:

Whatever happened to Numbers? I know it's the wrong thread, but still. ?

I haven’t been back since someone vomited on my shoes at Ministry.

[Gatorubet 30083]

On 11/23/2023 at 6:49 PM, Fastbreak said:

How is he allowed to travel to Argentina?

I did Nazi that coming.  

[TwiceHorn 31241]

On 11/23/2023 at 6:49 PM, Fastbreak said:

How is he allowed to travel to Argentina?

Well, he obviously doesn't have the same kind of pre-trial restrictions as an ordinary Joe.

Largely because he doesn't pose a flight risk.

And if he flees, who gives a fuck?  That might be the best possible outcome.  If he doesn't get extradited back, yay.  If he does, he goes directly to jail, yay.

[jimmyjazz 45540]

5 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

Well, he obviously doesn't have the same kind of pre-trial restrictions as an ordinary Joe.

Largely because he doesn't pose a flight risk.

And if he flees, who gives a fuck?  That might be the best possible outcome.  If he doesn't get extradited back, yay.  If he does, he goes directly to jail, yay.

You sure about this?  Seems like the guy gets a lot of largely unprecedented concessions.

[yoladu 4066]

On 11/22/2023 at 2:40 PM, coachherman'sgrill said:

https://www.cnn.com/2023/11/21/politics/mcconney-trump-org-testimony-fraud-trial/index.html

The second sentence. Crazy

I got to do a lot of things normally an accountant wouldn't be able to do.

[TwiceHorn 31241]

2 hours ago, jimmyjazz said:

You sure about this?  Seems like the guy gets a lot of largely unprecedented concessions.

Once you establish yourself as a flight risk, nay, a flat-out bail jumper, there's no more benefit of the doubt.  Do not pass go, do not collect $200, do not stump the Iowa Caucus.

Go. Directly. To.  Jail.

Edited November 27, 2023 by TwiceHorn

[jimmyjazz 45540]

Just now, TwiceHorn said:

Once you establish yourself as a flight risk, there's no more benefit of the doubt.  Do not pass go, do not collect $200, do not stump the Iowa Caucus.

Go. Directly. To.  Jail.

You'll excuse me if I'm (literally) from Missouri on this one.

[TwiceHorn 31241]

1 minute ago, jimmyjazz said:

You'll excuse me if I'm (literally) from Missouri on this one.

Trump's "bail" has worked how bail really should work.  Is he really a flight risk? No.  Is he so violent as to pose an imminent threat to the community?  No.

Of course for a variety of reasons, the bail decision now takes into account a lot of frankly bullshit factors that keep people behind bars to destroy their lives and hamper their defense/coerce a plea bargain.  It's straight-up pre-conviction punishment, no more, no less.

 

[Captainant 27408]

50 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

 Is he so violent as to pose an imminent threat to the community?  No.

https://thehill.com/regulation/court-battles/4326743-court-filing-trump-civil-fraud-judge-received-hundreds-threats/

 

Not sure I agree with your police work, Lou. 

[Hookah Horns 3072]

6 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

Trump's "bail" has worked how bail really should work.  Is he really a flight risk? No.  Is he so violent as to pose an imminent threat to the community?  No.

Of course for a variety of reasons, the bail decision now takes into account a lot of frankly bullshit factors that keep people behind bars to destroy their lives and hamper their defense/coerce a plea bargain.  It's straight-up pre-conviction punishment, no more, no less.

 

Whoa there. Why does he himself have to be violent in order to pose an imminent threat to the community? Was Charles Manson not a threat to the community? 

[TwiceHorn 31241]

3 hours ago, Hookah Horns said:

Whoa there. Why does he himself have to be violent in order to pose an imminent threat to the community? Was Charles Manson not a threat to the community? 

Bail is to secure attendance at trials and hearings.  The rest of it is mostly bullshit, pre-conviction pre-crime.

If someone is to be detained on grounds other than flight risk, they need to be a drooling, incorrigible violent criminal.

That's how bail should work, anyway.  Not how it often does.

Edited November 27, 2023 by TwiceHorn

[Born to Run 6559]

I haven’t been back since someone vomited on my shoes at Ministry.

Every other place sucks Rag!

[Captainant 27408]

14 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

If someone is to be detained on grounds other than flight risk, they need to be a drooling, incorrigible violent criminal

How about repeatedly inciting violence against court officers?

https://www.salon.com/2023/11/27/this-is-in-purpose-experts-alarmed-after-filing-reveals-shocking-extent-of-inspired/

Quote

Last month, the former president posted an image of Greenfield on his social media platform Truth Social falsely describing her as Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer's "girlfriend" and linking to her personal Instagram account. The act prompted Engoron to issue a partial gag order barring Trump — and later his legal team — from commenting on court staff.

A New York appeals court earlier this month, however, paused the gag order, allowing Trump to speak freely about court staff while a longer appeals process takes place. 

Greenfield's personal contact information has since been compromised, a court safety official, Charles Hollon, told The Guardian. 

“I have been informed by Ms. Greenfield that she has been receiving approximately 20-30 calls per day to her personal cellphone and approximately 30-50 messages per day online,” Hollon said. “Ms Greenfield also informed me that since the interim stay was issued lifting the gag orders on November 16, 2023, approximately half of the harassing and disparaging messages have been antisemitic.”

He fucking knows what he's doing. The legal system is letting an arsonist run around handing out matchbooks under the guise of free speech. 

[TwiceHorn 31241]

22 minutes ago, Captainant said:

How about repeatedly inciting violence against court officers?

https://www.salon.com/2023/11/27/this-is-in-purpose-experts-alarmed-after-filing-reveals-shocking-extent-of-inspired/

He fucking knows what he's doing. The legal system is letting an arsonist run around handing out matchbooks under the guise of free speech. 

The legal system probably ought to, as far as detention goes.  Gag orders are another matter.

Our pretrial detention/bail system is rudderless right now for the most part, but it's probably operating for Trump how it ought to operate for everyone.

Pretrial detention should be the exception, rather than the rule, for definable flight risks and seriously mentally ill or otherwise incorrigibly violent.

But once you skip bail, or do a real crime while on bail, that's it.

[atomheartbevo 89400]

SIAP, but @TwiceHorn you might find this interesting - apparently it flew under the radar last week.

 

[TwiceHorn 31241]

12 minutes ago, atomheartbevo said:

SIAP, but @TwiceHorn you might find this interesting - apparently it flew under the radar last week.

 

Yeah, I saw something about that.  A temporary victory, for now, as it's just stayed pending appeal.

That legislation is under assault from numerous quarters, including the governor and some legislators, so I don't think it's going to have any impact on Willis or anyone else for quite some time.

[Hermanator 6930]

On 11/26/2023 at 5:16 PM, TwiceHorn said:

Well, he obviously doesn't have the same kind of pre-trial restrictions as an ordinary Joe.

Largely because he doesn't pose a flight risk.

And if he flees, who gives a fuck?  That might be the best possible outcome.  If he doesn't get extradited back, yay.  If he does, he goes directly to jail, yay.

That's bullshit. Every single criminal fleeing the country serves the purpose of getting them out of our society. But it isn't allowed because it allows them to escape punishment. We should all give a fuck if this piece of shit escapes punishment. 

[TwiceHorn 31241]

26 minutes ago, Hermanator said:

That's bullshit. Every single criminal fleeing the country serves the purpose of getting them out of our society. But it isn't allowed because it allows them to escape punishment. We should all give a fuck if this piece of shit escapes punishment. 

I'm happy with criminals fleeing the country, you should be too.  It's really a fantastic solution for Trump.

But if they only flee across town or to the next state, that's a problem.

We have this fucking obsession with punishment in this country.  Incapacitation works better for the purpose of removing them from society and minimizing their effect than punishment.  And fleeing the country is a hell of an incapacitation.

Edited November 28, 2023 by TwiceHorn

[bolverk 29394]

3 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

I'm happy with criminals fleeing the country, you should be too.  It's really a fantastic solution for Trump.

But if they only flee across town or to the next state, that's a problem.

We have this fucking obsession with punishment in this country.  Incapacitation works better for that purpose than punishment.

Personally, I'm a big believer in rehabilitative justice. But with Trump, well, we know that ain't happening.

[YGIFS 19449]

First Deputy Chairman of KGB, "When the bullet hits your skull, what will it matter why?"  

[TwiceHorn 31241]

7 minutes ago, bolverk said:

Personally, I'm a big believer in rehabilitative justice. But with Trump, well, we know that ain't happening.

I mean, I'd like to see Trump suffer consequences, but to me that actually means something different than being punished. It means being conclusively adjudged to be a crook in a fair, fact-based forum.

My sense of schadenfreude would like to see him rot in prison for a while, but that's not the best part of me.

And, I submit that we as a country have a bizarre obsession with people being punished and the only rational support for it (besides just vengeance, if you call that rational) is deterrence and it's a nearly undeniable fact that punishment doesn't deter the vast majority of criminals.  Punishment wouldn't deter Trump either, if he lived past it.

[Willfully Horn 7913]

1 hour ago, TwiceHorn said:

I'm happy with criminals fleeing the country, you should be too.  It's really a fantastic solution for Trump.

But if they only flee across town or to the next state, that's a problem.

We have this fucking obsession with punishment in this country.  Incapacitation works better for the purpose of removing them from society and minimizing their effect than punishment.  And fleeing the country is a hell of an incapacitation.

Given that important change happens at a given time, and given that time is ongoing, I do not share your opinion.

[linux 1659]

3 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

I'm happy with criminals fleeing the country, you should be too.  It's really a fantastic solution for Trump.

But if they only flee across town or to the next state, that's a problem.

We have this fucking obsession with punishment in this country.  Incapacitation works better for the purpose of removing them from society and minimizing their effect than punishment.  And fleeing the country is a hell of an incapacitation.

I used to be anti capital punishment, until Trump showed what pardon powers really are... the war criminals he freed are beyond the pale, the system is broken and no amount of leniency and sympathy is going to fix this adversarial nightmare.

 

As for Don he is a flight risk but to Moscow. Any other country (including Argentina) would be severely preassured to either extradite him or gag him, his ego would never accept a real gag (not this court pussyfooting around gags) but one enforec by the barrel of a gun.

Moscow is the only exception he can yap freely without fear of extradition,so that is why I think he is headed there.

Edited November 28, 2023 by linux

[locodos 5330]

Man the ancient Greeks really had it going on.   We need to bring back the ostracism.

"In ancient Athens, ostracism was the process by which any citizen, including political leaders, could be expelled from the city-state for 10 years. Once a year, ancient Athenian citizens would nominate people they felt threatened democracy—because of political differences, dishonesty, or just general dislike."

[RomaVicta 29769]

3 hours ago, locodos said:

Man the ancient Greeks really had it going on.   We need to bring back the ostracism.

"In ancient Athens, ostracism was the process by which any citizen, including political leaders, could be expelled from the city-state for 10 years. Once a year, ancient Athenian citizens would nominate people they felt threatened democracy—because of political differences, dishonesty, or just general dislike."

According to a professor of mine, often this banishment was applied to persons getting too popular and holding too much sway with the people. Such a person could become a demagogue and lead the people to bad ends. 

According to the same professor (Gareth Morgan? RIP), such a banishment could be source of pride. These men were rich and could live in a nearby city-state. They weren't propelled into the desert or College Station.

[Bullneck 18983]

3 hours ago, locodos said:

Man the ancient Greeks really had it going on.   We need to bring back the ostracism.

"In ancient Athens, ostracism was the process by which any citizen, including political leaders, could be expelled from the city-state for 10 years. Once a year, ancient Athenian citizens would nominate people they felt threatened democracy—because of political differences, dishonesty, or just general dislike."

I hear the Mennonites still shun people.  Maybe the Amish, too.  

[RomaVicta 29769]

6 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

I mean, I'd like to see Trump suffer consequences, but to me that actually means something different than being punished. It means being conclusively adjudged to be a crook in a fair, fact-based forum.

My sense of schadenfreude would like to see him rot in prison for a while, but that's not the best part of me.

And, I submit that we as a country have a bizarre obsession with people being punished and the only rational support for it (besides just vengeance, if you call that rational) is deterrence and it's a nearly undeniable fact that punishment doesn't deter the vast majority of criminals.  Punishment wouldn't deter Trump either, if he lived past it.

I abhor the US prison system and the way so much of the public embraces the notion that long sentences spent as a victim to the strong is justice. Our prison system and vengence lust is among the most shameful things about the US in my opinion.

I think I part ways with you on punishment/imprisonment being the only "rational" if used to deter crime. You seem to further assert that a person shouldn't be imprisoned if we can be certain deterrence won't work. I doubt that's what you mean to assert, but that's the way the language reads to me.

I do believe that punishment by humane incarceration is a good policy. One abuses one's liberty if it's used to commit offenses against other citizens. The cost should be paid in forfeit liberty. I think our society functions better knowing that there are consequences for crimes. If the convicted commit another crime after release, then they pay by forfeiting more liberty.

Abstracty, I'm fine with capital punishment for heinous crimes. I oppose capital punishment in this country because it's applied unjustly and too many mistakes are made.

I saw Donald Trump commit high crimes. I'd be fine with hanging him for them. That won't happen. I want him in a cell providing a much needed example of blind justice. If he jets off to Argentina or Saudi Arabia, I want him brought back in chains for the same reason.

I'm fine with the idea of punishment. I despise our system for its cruel inhumanity.

[RomaVicta 29769]

6 minutes ago, Bullneck said:

I hear the Mennonites still shun people.  Maybe the Amish, too.  

They developed putting people on ignore before the internet.

Impressive.

[WhatTheBuck 28703]

40 minutes ago, Bullneck said:

I hear the Mennonites still shun people.  Maybe the Amish, too.  

The Amish do. The Mennonites don’t. None that I’ve ever heard of, anyway. If any do then they’d be in the most extremely conservative congregations bordering on the Amish end of the Anabaptist spectrum. 

[Captainant 27408]

8 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

And, I submit that we as a country have a bizarre obsession with people being punished and the only rational support for it (besides just vengeance, if you call that rational) is deterrence and it's a nearly undeniable fact that punishment doesn't deter the vast majority of criminals.  Punishment wouldn't deter Trump either, if he lived past it.

You can't deter a narcissist. Their brains don't accept anything that goes against their worldview. That doesn't mean we should just let them get away with fucking everything and ACTIVELY INCITE VIOLENCE AGAINST THE COURT SYSTEM ATTEMPTING TO CONCLUSIVELY ADJUDICATE HIS STATUS AS A LIAR AND FRAUD!

I gotta say though, your heel turn to "we shouldn't punish fascists" is tipping your former republican cred just a liiiiitle too much. You wouldn't happen to be related to Neville Chamberlain would you?

Edited November 28, 2023 by Captainant

[Nivek 16843]

I'm happy with criminals fleeing the country, you should be too.  It's really a fantastic solution for Trump.
But if they only flee across town or to the next state, that's a problem.
We have this fucking obsession with punishment in this country.  Incapacitation works better for the purpose of removing them from society and minimizing their effect than punishment.  And fleeing the country is a hell of an incapacitation.

Exiled leaders who flee sometimes return and create more chaos/death.
History is filled with numerous lessons on this.

[Snake Diggity 4614]

10 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

I mean, I'd like to see Trump suffer consequences, but to me that actually means something different than being punished. It means being conclusively adjudged to be a crook in a fair, fact-based forum.

My sense of schadenfreude would like to see him rot in prison for a while, but that's not the best part of me.

And, I submit that we as a country have a bizarre obsession with people being punished and the only rational support for it (besides just vengeance, if you call that rational) is deterrence and it's a nearly undeniable fact that punishment doesn't deter the vast majority of criminals.  Punishment wouldn't deter Trump either, if he lived past it.

Agree with your overall point, disagree on some individual points.  Incarceration absolutely deters criminals, but only while they’re incarcerated.  For certain criminals, there’s definite societal benefit to that beyond vengeance or the feeble hope of that incarceration works for rehabilitation.  Theres also an argument that seeing criminals get incarcerated might deter would-be criminals from committing crimes (that is debatable).

[TwiceHorn 31241]

2 hours ago, Captainant said:

You can't deter a narcissist. Their brains don't accept anything that goes against their worldview. That doesn't mean we should just let them get away with fucking everything and ACTIVELY INCITE VIOLENCE AGAINST THE COURT SYSTEM ATTEMPTING TO CONCLUSIVELY ADJUDICATE HIS STATUS AS A LIAR AND FRAUD!

I gotta say though, your heel turn to "we shouldn't punish fascists" is tipping your former republican cred just a liiiiitle too much. You wouldn't happen to be related to Neville Chamberlain would you?

What it is is not advocating against punishing fascists. I have never said anything like that. 

It's not indulging the flaws in our justice system against anyone especially when it's just convenient. 

To me, trump ought not be detained pretrial just like anyone who is not a real flight risk or hideously violent ought not be detailned. 

You, on the other hand, bitch about how the justice system is flawed but all of those flaws are perfectly OK as long as it's trump or some other fascist. 

Edited November 28, 2023 by TwiceHorn

[TwiceHorn 31241]

1 hour ago, Snake Diggity said:

Agree with your overall point, disagree on some individual points.  Incarceration absolutely deters criminals, but only while they’re incarcerated.  For certain criminals, there’s definite societal benefit to that beyond vengeance or the feeble hope of that incarceration works for rehabilitation.  Theres also an argument that seeing criminals get incarcerated might deter would-be criminals from committing crimes (that is debatable).

Deterrence during incarceration is known as incapacitation as I use it. 

 

I use the "four pillars of sentencing," retribution, deterrence, rehabilitation, and incapacitation. 

Edited November 28, 2023 by TwiceHorn

[wildcat09 29213]

I'm generally against our carceral system and the death penalty generally. But fuck all that, I absolutely want Trump to be drawn and quartered after we've thrown his ass in an oubliette for a month that we've filled up with the worst smelling shit imaginable.  

[jimmyjazz 45540]

1 hour ago, wildcat09 said:

I'm generally against our carceral system and the death penalty generally. But fuck all that, I absolutely want Trump to be drawn and quartered after we've thrown his ass in an oubliette for a month that we've filled up with the worst smelling shit imaginable.  

I first read that as "omelette" and thought "ew, gross".

[High Plains Drifter 10970]

15 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

 

Our pretrial detention/bail system is rudderless right now for the most part, but it's probably operating for Trump how it ought to operate for everyone.

 

 

This is the point. A system that works the way its supposed to for only the rich and white. Maybe when someone like DoTArd and his little gang of insurrectionists are treated the same way nonviolent drug offenders are treated, the system will be fixed. 

 

[Fudge Nuggets 19144]

13 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

I'm happy with criminals fleeing the country, you should be too.  It's really a fantastic solution for Trump.

[Old Freak Nasty 818]

Maybe when he is convicted he might find his way into one of these.

https://www.vice.com/en/article/qkveav/drone-factory-farm-pig-feces-lakes

[Scheiss Meister 8398]

12 hours ago, wildcat09 said:

I'm generally against our carceral system and the death penalty generally. But fuck all that, I absolutely want Trump to be drawn and quartered after we've thrown his ass in an oubliette for a month that we've filled up with the worst smelling shit imaginable.  

If an oubliette is so horrible, how awful must a full sized oubli be?

You left out hung.  It's hung, drawn, and quartered, just like in Braveheart.  Sometimes the victim was hung until unconscious two or three times before being moved to the rack.

[Bookman 4610]

6 hours ago, Scheiss Meister said:

You left out hung.  It's hung, drawn, and quartered, just like in Braveheart.  Sometimes the victim was hung until unconscious two or three times before being moved to the rack.

hanged.

[wildcat09 29213]

[Bozo_Casanova 26271]

8 hours ago, Scheiss Meister said:

If an oubliette is so horrible, how awful must a full sized oubli be?

That's funny, but oubliette is a well chosen word. It's not a diminutive of "oubli," but the noun form of the verb "oublier." Oubliette literally means "place of forgetting."

[Biff Tannen 45491]

24 minutes ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

That's funny, but oubliette is a well chosen word. It's not a diminutive of "oubli," but the noun form of the verb "oublier." Oubliette literally means "place of forgetting."

Had to look it up. At first I thought we were talking about one of those cages that they put Madmartigan in. 

[Bozo_Casanova 26271]

7 minutes ago, Biff Tannen said:

Madmartigan

[Scheiss Meister 8398]

2 hours ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

That's funny, but oubliette is a well chosen word. It's not a diminutive of "oubli," but the noun form of the verb "oublier." Oubliette literally means "place of forgetting."

I know.  It's from a word game I used to hit my kids with to get them to look up the definitions of words.

[YGIFS 19449]

So words do hit as hard as a fist?