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Posted
Just now, jimmyjazz said:

Apropos of nothing, I laughed.  This almost implies 60% of Americans live in a trailer park.  (Yes, I know what you meant.)

Ask the question again in 20 years and we might be laughing, in the most gallows of ways, at the rate we're going. 

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Posted
12 minutes ago, SydneyCarton said:

I'm as full of disdain for for the people who support Trump as anyone on this website, but casually clasifying them as people in trailer parks is dismissive, but more importantly dangerous. And it glosses over the true power this propoganda has had on American society. On my retired parents street, which is a retiree neighborhood, there are multiple doctors, succesfull businessmen, quite a few millionaires (or people with 2-3 homes), etc. And they all to a person vote for Trump and repeat all of the fucking lies. 40% of Americans don't live in a fucking trailer park, but 40% love Trump. Dismissing them all as trailer trash is a mistake, imo. 

Its becoming more that way every cycle: Rs get more uneducated support over time.  D support:

Screen_Shot_2021_05_10_at_10.42.18_AM.jp

Posted
Just now, BehoId, The Underminer! said:

Its becoming more that way every cycle: Rs get more uneducated support over time.  D support:

Screen_Shot_2021_05_10_at_10.42.18_AM.jp

Yes. Trump has drawn the dregs, typcially people who wouldn't have voted before, to the polls and it's brought down the average. But to imply that's all there is, is foolish. 

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Posted
9 minutes ago, SydneyCarton said:

I'm as full of disdain for for the people who support Trump as anyone on this website, but casually clasiffying them as people in trailer parks is dismissive, but more importantly dangerous. And it glosses over the true power this propoganda has had on American society. On my retired parents street, which is a retiree neighborhood, there are multiple doctors, succesfull businessmen, quite a few millionaires (or people with 2-3 homes), etc. And they all to a person vote for Trump and repeat all of the fucking lies. 40% of Americans don't live in a fucking trailer park, but 40% love Trump. Dismissing them all as trailer trash is a mistake, imo. 

 

This is wild and something I've been trying to understand and sort out like most of us I'm sure for quite awhile. I just don't get it, I don't understand how educated people who prior to 2016 ish knew the difference between truth and falsehoods, right and wrong now seem to be under this brain washed spell. And its millions of people, I cant wrap my head around this because it makes no god damn sense to me. 

 

 

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Posted
7 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

The Latino support data, if accurate, are what should scare Democrats.


The other way to look at it, is if a vast majority of that Latino support is from Texas and Florida (cubans and the RGV here in Texas), then it don't make much of a shit. 

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Posted
2 hours ago, The Royal We said:

How in the fuck do we deal with this?

Ask him for proof. You've shown yours, now he has to show his.

You're allowing him to get away with a level of evidence you wouldn't accept from yourself.

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Posted (edited)
14 minutes ago, Smax said:

 

This is wild and something I've been trying to understand and sort out like most of us I'm sure for quite awhile. I just don't get it, I don't understand how educated people who prior to 2016 ish knew the difference between truth and falsehoods, right and wrong now seem to be under this brain washed spell. And its millions of people, I cant wrap my head around this because it makes no god damn sense to me. 

 

 

Really? It makes perfect sense to me. As people age, they get more conservative by nature. And I don't mean politics. I mean in the whole "The world has changed, and I don't recognize it as much and that makes me uneasy" concept. And humans don't like change. We were farmers for 10k, years, and now in the last 200 we've industralized, visited space, built computers, allowed blacks to be human beings, allowed women to vote and work, digitized, let homosexuals USUALLY not get beaten to death for existing, etc. That's a lot of change. Humans don't like change.

Specifically, since 2016, you've got a bunch of old AF boomers, who have always been conservatives listening to fox news, now retired with nothing but time on their hand, still with fox news on in the background, just listening and absorbing that hate and propoganda. And doing it while their cognition is delcining. They're now getting it from Facebook. All of their friends are saying the same thing. The guardrails that existed when they were young and in middle age don't exist anymore, but they assume that they do, therefore a company they've listened to their entire life with "news" in the name can be trusted. Meanwhile, the "news" companies are getting more aggressive, more brash, peddling that rage dopamine hit. And in the middle of all that, Covid wrecked shop. It's all a perfect storm snowballing at once. 

Edited by SydneyCarton
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Posted
3 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

Eh, it helps impede a move towards purple.  It's also stupid, but hey, pull up that ladder.

You're more ambitious than me, dude. With the gerrymandering in this state, we'll turn purple when there's federal election laws passed. 

I'm shooeting for "Biden wins the election" and that's it at this point. 

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Posted
2 hours ago, jimmyjazz said:

Just for grins, I looked up violent crime statistics for New York state.  They peaked in 1990, with 1,181 instances of violent crime per 100,000 people.  That number is currently 429 instances per 100,000 people, a reduction of nearly 64%.

But, people believe Trump anyway, and the media mostly just sits on its hands.

Media loves to sell a horse race. Even if one of the horses needs to be taken out back and shot. 

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Posted
3 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

Eh, it helps impede a move towards purple.  It's also stupid, but hey, pull up that ladder.

It's standard.  Once any demonized group begins to find itself somewhat "accepted" in greater society, it starts to vote more like the majority.  Happened with Irish and Italians in the NE.

A shitload of hispanics in the RGV live a life that is indistinguishable from the rednecks around them: they drive fancy new trucks to their oilpatch jobs, the don't want any regulations that might jeopardize those things, they drink beer, barbecue, and root for the cowboys.  So....they vote like the white dudes who do all those things.  Not all of them, but more of them than before.

Now, the fact that they are doing so while that very political party is actively demonizing the shit out of all of them, and threatening to scrutinize any brown people for possible deportation, is a special kind of stupid.  But then, being completely stupid and voting like it is the American brand these days, so hey, congrats to RGV hispanics, you really ARE assimilating!

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Posted
31 minutes ago, SydneyCarton said:

I'm as full of disdain for for the people who support Trump as anyone on this website, but casually clasifying them as people in trailer parks is dismissive, but more importantly dangerous. And it glosses over the true power this propoganda has had on American society. On my retired parents street, which is a retiree neighborhood, there are multiple doctors, succesfull businessmen, quite a few millionaires (or people with 2-3 homes), etc. And they all to a person vote for Trump and repeat all of the fucking lies. 40% of Americans don't live in a fucking trailer park, but 40% love Trump. Dismissing them all as trailer trash is a mistake, imo. 

Your point is very valid. I was going more about the uneducated that make up his most enthusiastic and cult like base. The people on the videos from rallies that get posted on Twitter and we all laugh at. That’s the frustrating thing to me. These are people that Trump despises yet they worship him. And then the assumingly educated folks you refer to are in on it as well for reasons I’ll never understand.

I’ve made jokes about it before, but the fact is that traffic on this site would take an huge hit if all the Trumpers moved to TexAgs where they belong. There are lots of folks that received an education at this once fine state’s flagship university that not only think this is all hunky dory, they vote for it enthusiastically.

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Posted
12 minutes ago, Rimbo said:

Ask him for proof. You've shown yours, now he has to show his.

You're allowing him to get away with a level of evidence you wouldn't accept from yourself.

I get what you're saying but we were sitting at a breakfast table having a conversation. I wasn't going to whip out my phone and pull out a news source that he would hand-wave away anyway. (I don't think I'm going to find a link on foxnews.com that shows an accurate depiction of murder rates)

So I rolled my eyes and laughed in his face - ahhhhhhh, of course, the statistics are made up!!!!

13 minutes ago, SydneyCarton said:

Specifically, since 2016, you've got a bunch of old AF boomers, who have always been conservatives listening to fox news, now retired with nothing but time on their hand, still with fox news on in the background, just listening and absorbing that hate and propoganda. And doing it while their cognition is delcining. They're now getting it from Facebook. All of their friends are saying the same thing.

I think this is as big of a part of it as anything else. My mom got off Facebook (I think when they started taking down obvious Covid disinfo) and is very active (not sitting in front of the TV on Fox all day), but the people she spends time with are absorbing this BS in all their waking hours. So even though my mom isn't getting on FB everyday, she's still inundated with the same horseshit. She gets it at the hair salon, at the Mahjong game, at trivia night at the only good pub in town, etc. It's an echo chamber of bullshit and it's very rare that these people come across someone like me who will push back/call them out/shame them/laugh in their face. They are shocked to encounter someone that completely disagrees with them about most things while still looking and sounding like them.

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Posted
11 minutes ago, The Royal We said:

I get what you're saying but we were sitting at a breakfast table having a conversation. I wasn't going to whip out my phone and pull out a news source that he would hand-wave away anyway. (I don't think I'm going to find a link on foxnews.com that shows an accurate depiction of murder rates)

You're still doing it. The key is to get him to question his information, not for you to look things up for him. You don't even have to point out that his information is literally just some crap he made up. You just ask him where he got that information, how you might verify it yourself. You're letting him engage in lazy thinking.

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Posted
10 minutes ago, Rimbo said:

You're still doing it. The key is to get him to question his information, not for you to look things up for him. You don't even have to point out that his information is literally just some crap he made up. You just ask him where he got that information, how you might verify it yourself. You're letting him engage in lazy thinking.

Go Ahead Yes GIF

 

It's not a bad thought, but I'm not sure he would have seen the error of his ways and sought new sources of information if I'd only have asked him where he got his information all 37 times he spouted some obviously made up bullshit.

Where did you get this information that approaching conversations like you suggest has been successful in cutting through people's echo chamber of bullshit? I'm willing to try anything because I've certainly not made any headway with what I'm doing.

 

Posted
1 minute ago, The Royal We said:

Go Ahead Yes GIF

 

It's not a bad thought, but I'm not sure he would have seen the error of his ways and sought new sources of information if I'd only have asked him where he got his information all 37 times he spouted some obviously made up bullshit.

Where did you get this information that approaching conversations like you suggest has been successful in cutting through people's echo chamber of bullshit? I'm willing to try anything because I've certainly not made any headway with what I'm doing.

 

Eh, it's just bein' Socratic, really. It's more or less what How to Win Friends and Influence People covers, sorta; you'll never win an argument by having one. (I don't argue to change people's minds; I do it because I'm an asshole who enjoys arguing.) You change people's minds by getting them to wander over to the right conclusion themselves. You start by finding out how they got there. Then ask them why they didn't take a different path.

It's not necessarily about cutting through in the moment, either. For this kind of thinking, it's about planting seeds that might not sprout for a year or even a decade later.

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Posted
20 minutes ago, The Royal We said:

Try not to suck any dick on your way to the parking lot.

"I'm not even supposed to BE in court today!" --the judge, having to issue yet another ruling about Trump's social media posts

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Posted
2 hours ago, jimmyjazz said:

The Latino support data, if accurate, are what should scare Democrats.

I don't disagree but the white vote moving +3% pro D should frighten R's even more, especially as those votes are swinging swing states blue where as the Latino vote will be heavier in FL and TX. Between those two shifts by my rough math, that's around 400k votes in favor of D.

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Posted
2 hours ago, SydneyCarton said:


The other way to look at it, is if a vast majority of that Latino support is from Texas and Florida (cubans and the RGV here in Texas), then it don't make much of a shit. 

Nevada? Arizona?

Posted
4 minutes ago, locodos said:

Nevada? Arizona?

Maybe. But the Latino votes in Florida and Texas made bigger shifts in 2020, and I'm just making an assumption they were a larger percentage of what drew up the average. 

Posted
Just now, dieucla98 said:

I don't disagree but the white vote moving +3% pro D should frighten R's even more, especially as those votes are swinging swing states blue where as the Latino vote will be heavier in FL and TX. Between those two shifts by my rough math, that's around 400k votes in favor of D.

The problem is that whites are shrinking and latinos are growing, so the gains with whites might not help long term. But I agree with whoever has been saying that the latino losses are mainly a regression to where it should have been all along, especially if you look at their voting habits in the countries they came from, there's a fair amount of social conservatism among all the leading parties and where they differ tends to be on economic policy and whether to be in cahoots with or "tough on" the criminal element, and if so, how they claim to intend to implement those plans. That means, first, Latinos will not vote as monoliths and, second, the longer they have been a part of their community, the less they see themselves as immigrants and the more they adopt the political values of the community they are in at roughly the same rate that you see with white voters. For the RGV, it has been dominated by Ds so the latinos who have been there for generations have no problem voting as Ds. For North Texas, I believe you see some of the opposite going on. If the family is somewhere in Colin County they probably are trending R, but if the family is in a latino enclave they might vote more like folks in RGV.

I'm more interested in how the electorate looks when divided along class lines. It's true that most of Trump's base isn't reflected by trailer trash but rather by the small businessmen who barely make enough to pay their country club dues and feel their social and economic standing is slipping due to immigrants, DEI, and the overall acceptance of previously marginalized communities. The trailer trash is just a windfall byproduct of the racism. But what really drives MAGA is a sense of entitlement.

The Gen X and Millennial MAGA are incredibly upset that they have fallen way short of what their Boomer predecessors had accomplished (were able to buy) at the same points in their lives, and instead of blaming the foreseeable consequences of Reaganomics they are blaming wokeness and the MeToo movement. Really whatever Fox News wants them to be mad at. It's all about grievance with these people. Steve Bannon is a piece of shit, but he was on to something with GamerGate and it has morphed into a broader playbook now that works on way more than people who are disappointed with their body counts.

 

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Posted
4 hours ago, The Original Greaser Bob said:

In other words, during the old days we were driven to the center by guardrails and now we are driven to the edges by the lack of guardrails.

What is harming is us not necessarily the guardrails or lack thereof.  It's the continued social silo-ing of our population into the college educated and the un-educated.  There is no draft or service requirement, or more importantly, a healthy and vibrant public school system that is giving us exposure to each other and creating a national identify of understanding the "other".

In the old days, we didn't have people openly pushing Russian propaganda with large platforms like we do now with Tucker, Rogan, Fox News as a whole, etc.

If a Tucker Carlson back in 1984 was pushing a pro-Soviet bias, the backlash would have been immense. Now, he shows up in Moscow, sucks Putin off on live TV, and some Republicans love him.

 

3 hours ago, royiv said:

These dimwits are the exact reason why the GQP wants to dismantle the education system in this country.

The GQP (leadership) wants to dismantle the education system because they see profit in pushing kids to private for-profit schools.

 

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Posted
3 hours ago, SydneyCarton said:

 It's all true, we have no shared identity,

And that's by design.  

The last time we had a shared identity was after 9/11 - you had thousands of people killed in New York City, and there were young men and women in the backwoods of Kentucky or East Texas or Appalachia signing up to fight for America, who had nothing in common with the folks in NYC except that Americans had been killed.

Now, if a terrorist attack happened in a liberal city, I'm not so sure that Republicans and certain Republican media outlets wouldn't push a "they are libtards, they had it coming" narrative.

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Posted
4 hours ago, Hookah Horns said:

I'm curious how much, if any, of his bullshit he actually believes. I wonder what his inner monologue is about this stuff. 

image.png.70ce859c8b08eccfbb976661e8ec1383.png

 

He's a sociopathic narcissist.  He believes he has super powers, is being persecuted and can do no wrong all at the same time.

Posted
6 hours ago, The Original Greaser Bob said:

We have an unprecedented ability to get accurate information from various media and non-media sources.  We just have to be vigilant and critical in how we process that information.

The blame lies with the voter.  Not 100%, but so much so that nothing else matters.

That's democracy's fatal flaw.

The left is banking on it working, the right is committed to finding an alternative.

Finding an alternative based on the votes of the dumbest, least-informed voters in the history of evar.

Posted
1 hour ago, TwiceHorn said:

Finding an alternative based on the votes of the dumbest, least-informed voters in the history of evar.

Counterpoint, voters are more informed than ever, but It ain’t what you don’t know that gets you into trouble. It’s what you know for sure that just ain’t so.

(side note, beginning of The Big Short uses this quote brilliantly by posting it at the beginning of the movie and then attributing it to Mark Twain, when there is no evidence Twain ever said such a thing) 

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Posted

I suggest everyone read the last couple of pages of that. They formulate a set of jury instructions under Cannon's proposal to show how fucking stupid she is. 

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Posted

I mean...we have entered the realm of stupidity being right over being actually correct. I don't even know what the fuck is going on anymore. 

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Posted
14 hours ago, BehoId, The Underminer! said:

i started to read hamilton's reynold's pamphlet the other day and saw this in the intro.  the more things change, the more they stay the same.

Lies often detected and refuted are still revived and repeated, in the hope that the refutation may have been forgotten or that the frequency and boldness of accusation may supply the place of truth and proof. 

There's also the "backfire effect", where people hold firmer to their beliefs when confronted by facts that refute them. 

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Posted

ever since law school, I've read my fair share of jury instructions and oppositions thereof.  But this one, my political biases acknowledged, takes the fucking cake.  

And to get all Qanon here, but yeah---insane Lobo rant.  This is one thing Trump did correct.  He actually did play 4-D chess for a hot minute.  He knew he was going to take them after he lost.  He knew the value of them  and sell them to foreign powers.  He put Judge Cannon into perpetual power in the exact jurisdiction where the documents would eventually be discovered.  And she would cover his ass at all costs.  Stephen Miller telegraphed this elegantly.  It's ugly and horrific for our nation, but it's working.  And as tremendous a job as Jack Smith has done and as smart as he is, he's fallen into the one clever trap that Trump's team has done.  Trump had 100 properties and options to store this stuff.  That he did it where Cannon has jurisdiction, despite her woeful incompetence, is a clever play.  And we're all going to have to live underground because of it.   

Posted
10 minutes ago, YGIFS said:

ever since law school, I've read my fair share of jury instructions and oppositions thereof.  But this one, my political biases acknowledged, takes the fucking cake.  

And to get all Qanon here, but yeah---insane Lobo rant.  This is one thing Trump did correct.  He actually did play 4-D chess for a hot minute.  He knew he was going to take them after he lost.  He knew the value of them  and sell them to foreign powers.  He put Judge Cannon into perpetual power in the exact jurisdiction where the documents would eventually be discovered.  And she would cover his ass at all costs.  Stephen Miller telegraphed this elegantly.  It's ugly and horrific for our nation, but it's working.  And as tremendous a job as Jack Smith has done and as smart as he is, he's fallen into the one clever trap that Trump's team has done.  Trump had 100 properties and options to store this stuff.  That he did it where Cannon has jurisdiction, despite her woeful incompetence, is a clever play.  And we're all going to have to live underground because of it.   

What really boils my oats about all this is the constant insistence by the legal community writ large that we MUST let the fascists have their way with the justice system, "otherwise we are just as bad as they are" or some other backhanded defense of the Byzantine and multi-tiered legal system. 

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Posted
10 hours ago, NWBuck said:

There's also the "backfire effect", where people hold firmer to their beliefs when confronted by facts that refute them. 

It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled.

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Posted
3 hours ago, YGIFS said:

ever since law school, I've read my fair share of jury instructions and oppositions thereof.  But this one, my political biases acknowledged, takes the fucking cake.  

And to get all Qanon here, but yeah---insane Lobo rant.  This is one thing Trump did correct.  He actually did play 4-D chess for a hot minute.  He knew he was going to take them after he lost.  He knew the value of them  and sell them to foreign powers.  He put Judge Cannon into perpetual power in the exact jurisdiction where the documents would eventually be discovered.  And she would cover his ass at all costs.  Stephen Miller telegraphed this elegantly.  It's ugly and horrific for our nation, but it's working.  And as tremendous a job as Jack Smith has done and as smart as he is, he's fallen into the one clever trap that Trump's team has done.  Trump had 100 properties and options to store this stuff.  That he did it where Cannon has jurisdiction, despite her woeful incompetence, is a clever play.  And we're all going to have to live underground because of it.   

except that the (or any) Chief Judge of that (or any) district is the one who makes the judicial assignments...

Posted
11 hours ago, Foosters said:

I suggest everyone read the last couple of pages of that. They formulate a set of jury instructions under Cannon's proposal to show how fucking stupid she is. 

can you just summarize it for us? 🤣

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Posted

This has to be fucking Onion article.  Smartest businessman ever sues himself to get more cash to protect himself from other business fraud to avoid more business bankruptcy to help himself get back into office to pardon himself for his own business crimes?  

But our planet is real and not a computer?  Mmkay.  

Posted
14 hours ago, The Dog said:

Jack has had enough:

 

So is Jack Smith getting really close to asking that Cannon get the boot in favor of a new judge in this case?

Posted
4 minutes ago, C-Man said:

So is Jack Smith getting really close to asking that Cannon get the boot in favor of a new judge in this case?

Doubtful.  But he's not going to trial with those jury instructions without rulings from higher courts.

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Posted

^ this.  There's no way in the world even a batshit insane pro-MAGA judge would accept Cannon's bullshit.  That's not the issue.  It's a matter of calendars.  These beautiful, gorgeous calendar.  /DamonSNL

The idea is continue to run him ragged so he dies within the next 10 months.  But in the likely result he remains alive, we are left with the cruel possibility that time is winding down on his legal vulnerability.  And we, as a nation, are winding down with it.  



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