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[Steamboat1874 4382]

10 minutes ago, Longhorn_Fan68 said:

maher has been irrelevant for a while. why anyone insists on trotting his nonsense out is beyond me, he's not a beacon for anything, just a contrarian asshole who says shit to rile people up. sounds familiar

He said all along that the NY trial was trivial and he was right.

 

[Red Five 41752]

Um, it made him a convicted felon. 34 times over. 

[Steamboat1874 4382]

1 minute ago, Red Five said:

Um, it made him a convicted felon. 34 times over. 

And what difference did it actually make.

[Longhorn_Fan68 34106]

@Red Five he's got you there! lol jfc

[Red Five 41752]

4 minutes ago, Steamboat1874 said:

And what difference did it actually make.

In the election that hasn't happened yet? 

[Red Five 41752]

I'm sure having an affair with a porn star and paying her hush money right before a presidential election and then cooking the books to hide it is considered "trivial" to all the people who spent years up in arms about Clinton lying about a blowjob. 

[Fudge Nuggets 19458]

3 hours ago, wildcat09 said:

Yes man, it is a defense. When someone is criticizing SCOTUS for acting quickly on one case to help Trump and delaying as long as they can on another case to help him (particularly when the one they acted quickly on was actually a question of first impression and the one they're delaying is not and was already addressed to any reasonable judge's complete satisfaction by the appellate court), pointing out distinctions between the cases (which will literally, 100% of the time, always exist) as an alternate explanation for their delay is defending them.

And I really don't know how to express how much I hate the "who cares? It's not like it would even matter" mindset. I'm pretty cynical about the American voting public, particularly undecided voters, but I do think there are millions of undecided voters who would decide for sure they won't vote for him if he were to be convicted of crimes related to January 6th or of stealing nuclear secrets. They're still undecided for hundreds of reasons, but particularly because they don't pay constant attention to politics and thus don't really know much detail about any of Trump's million scandals. They don't know what you know.  

The Republicans on SCOTUS know this. They know delaying their decision on immunity, and then punting back to the district court for specific determinations as to whether all of Trump's acts at issue were public or private acts, will delay the trial until after the election. They are very fucking clearly doing this because they do not want undecided voters to see him get convicted of Jan 6th shit or of stealing nuclear secrets before the fucking election! For you to brush this behavior off as insignificant reveals a deep disdain for American democracy, the same disdain they have.

I bet if the Jan 6 case judge revoked bail on “reasons” and dotard was put in the slammer, SCOTUS would make a ruling real fucking fast.

[Captainant 28565]

3 hours ago, Goredho said:

Captainant: What do you call 100 dead lawyers?

FWIW my wife is a lawyer lol

[Longhorn_Fan68 34106]

[Js1 87190]

1 hour ago, Steamboat1874 said:

And what difference did it actually make.

Well the polls everyone has taken as gospel (that have sucked for years) have showed consistent movement towards Biden since the conviction. So it has made a difference, but no one will know for sure until November. Bc polls don’t vote 

[Goredho 17659]

1 hour ago, Captainant said:

FWIW my wife is a lawyer lol

101 then 😜

[Gatorubet 30727]

1 hour ago, Steamboat1874 said:

And what difference did it actually make.

Trump will have to cancel his plans to take StationWagonOne into Canada for a quick vacation when he is reelected.  

 

 

[YGIFS 19458]

2 hours ago, Gatorubet said:

Trump will have to cancel his plans to take StationWagonOne into Canada for a quick vacation when he is reelected.  

Was that the model they tied Ivana Trump to during that rain storm?  

[Gatorubet 30727]

16 minutes ago, YGIFS said:

Was that the model they tied Ivana Trump to during that rain storm?  

No.  That was Tawny Kitaen. 

[YGIFS 19458]

But I ordered the SportsWagon in Arctic(White)Snake...

You think you hate it now, wait until she looks like a Lara Loomer: 

https://english.aawsat.com/home/article/2962351/tawny-kitaen-star-80s-rock-music-videos-dies-59

[Satchel 6982]

On 6/23/2024 at 1:30 PM, Steamboat1874 said:

He said all along that the NY trial was trivial and he was right.

 

At some point the justice system has to throw a bone to all of the schlubs who get prosecuted for lesser crimes. The entailed deserves to know what not being entitled feels like. 

[Captainant 28565]

https://www.salon.com/2024/06/24/took-secret-trip-to-mar-a-lago-just-weeks-before-an-fbi-raid-witnesses-say/

Gee whiz, it sure is a good thing we're letting Aileen run roughshod over the justice process and further delay a fucking slam dunk trial because she can legally jangle enough car keys to distract the lawyers with technicalities and process 

[Pods 7637]

4 hours ago, Captainant said:

https://www.salon.com/2024/06/24/took-secret-trip-to-mar-a-lago-just-weeks-before-an-fbi-raid-witnesses-say/

Gee whiz, it sure is a good thing we're letting Aileen run roughshod over the justice process and further delay a fucking slam dunk trial because she can legally jangle enough car keys to distract the lawyers with technicalities and process 

Many of our lawyer types don't seem to understand just how hard Trump mashed the fast-forward button on the Banana Republic remote.

Trump is the fascism cheat code. He normalized attacking, hamstringing and corrupting the legal system in a way that would have taken the fascists at least a decade to pull off. Trump has done that to every aspect of government and society and the damage is compounding. It is literally inconceivable how much damage Trump has done to destroy American society and government. 

That's why the fascists love him. That plus the cover to be a racist asshole. 

Jack Smith also underestimated just how far gone we are. He thought he was in a biased court, but he is in a Banana Republic one. 

Edited June 25 by Pods

[Captainant 28565]

6 hours ago, Pods said:

Many of our lawyer types don't seem to understand just how hard Trump mashed the fast-forward button on the Banana Republic remote.

Trump is the fascism cheat code. He normalized attacking, hamstringing and corrupting the legal system in a way that would have taken the fascists at least a decade to pull off. Trump has done that to every aspect of government and society and the damage is compounding. It is literally inconceivable how much damage Trump has done to destroy American society and government. 

That's why the fascists love him. That plus the cover to be a racist asshole. 

Jack Smith also underestimated just how far gone we are. He thought he was in a biased court, but he is in a Banana Republic one. 

Yuuuuup. Cannon is being an outright trump advocate in her rulings and proceedings. 

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/judge-trump-classified-documents-case-reprimands-prosecutor-hearing-rcna158725

Quote

 

 

 

 

TRUMP INVESTIGATIONS

'I don't appreciate your tone': Judge in Trump documents case reprimands prosecutor

Special counsel Jack Smith's team argued that Trump should be banned from making more inflammatory statements about FBI agents involved in the case.

 

 

Get more newson

 

 

June 24, 2024, 7:06 PM CDT

By Owen Hayes, Jake Traylor and Dareh Gregorian

FORT PIERCE, Fla. — The judge presiding over Donald Trump’s classified documents case reprimanded a prosecutor from special counsel Jack Smith’s office at a hearing Monday on a proposed gag order for the former president.

“I don’t appreciate your tone,” U.S. District Judge Aileen Cannon said when attorney David Harbach appeared to get exasperated as she questioned the need to modify Trump’s conditions of release. Smith’s office has challenged those conditions over Trump’s false claims that FBI agents were prepared to kill him while they were executing a 2022 search warrant at his Mar-a-Lago estate.

 

The tense exchange at a federal courthouse in Fort Pierce came as attorney Harbach was arguing that Cannon should bar Trump from making more inflammatory statements about FBI agents who worked on the investigation.

Cannon had noted that the agents’ names were redacted in court filings, while Harbach was pointing out the agents were doxxed shortly after the search. Cannon told Harbach that his behavior was unprofessional and warned she would require someone else to make his arguments if he did not correct his behavior.

Harbach later apologized. “I didn’t mean to be unprofessional,” he said.

Defense attorney Todd Blanche urged Cannon to deny the prosecution’s request, arguing that Trump’s comments cited by government attorneys were directed at President Joe Biden and not the FBI.

“If you look at the actual posts, there’s no threats to FBI agents,” Blanche said. “The attacks are against Joe Biden.”

...

Blanche told the judge Monday that if she agreed to modify the terms of Trump’s release to bar him from making similar statements in the future, Trump could be arrested if he violated the order during Thursday’s presidential debate. Blanche also contended the proposed restrictions are so vague that they are “incredibly chilling.”

Harbach urged Cannon to act now and not “wait for tragedy to strike.”

Cannon suggested she was skeptical of Harbach’s argument that Trump’s comments can be followed by violence from his supporters, saying some “actual connection between A & B” was still needed.

It's the same walk up to the line and stick your foot over, but never put it down, type of behavior we see with right wing shitheads everywhere. And then by the time they do step over the that line, it won't matter anymore because of some other confounding or distracting matter. 

It's such an effective implementation of a firehose of falsehoods, and there's not a goddamn thing our legal system can do about it. 

[Fudge Nuggets 19458]

3 minutes ago, Captainant said:

It's such an effective implementation of a firehose of falsehoods, and there's not a goddamn thing our legal system can will do about it. 

Axtchually...

[TwiceHorn 32083]

On 6/23/2024 at 10:26 AM, jimmyjazz said:

New theory:  Cannon might be both incompetent AND in the tank for Trump.

Nowai.

[Js1 87190]

8 minutes ago, Captainant said:

Yuuuuup. Cannon is being an outright trump advocate in her rulings and proceedings. 

 

Of course, her go-to is "tone"

8 minutes ago, Captainant said:

Yuuuuup. Cannon is being an outright trump advocate in her rulings and proceedings. 

 

Of course, her go-to is "tone"

[TwiceHorn 32083]

On 6/23/2024 at 9:51 AM, Huckleberry said:

Y'all may think that your inability to see what was plainly obvious with Cannon reflects well on your ability to patiently practice and analyze law, but in reality all it does is reflect poorly on your ability to see what is right in front of your face here in the real world. 

What lawdogs do, generally speaking, is look at a situation and consider the explanations for the situation.

Because under the adversarial system, there are inevitably at least two sides to every situation, there generally are at least two plausible explanations for that situation.  Which one is "true" is unknowable, as a general proposition.

Some of those explanations may be more plausible than others, especially to a layperson.  But mistaking plausibility for certainty can be a grave error.  And when the situation is one that lay people don't often encounter, that's an even bigger mistake.  You are quite certain of what is happening or what has happened, but you don't actually know.  And neither do I, but I don't express any certainty.

Delay is incredibly common in legal proceedings, especially so when one party has a motivation to pursue it, which is generally the case for a criminal defendant.

Make it a case where a defendant is motivated and has some unique opportunities to present dilatory motions, and that goes double or triple.  It takes a firm, which usually means experienced and thus confident, trial judge to cut through the bullshit and actually manage the docket.  Cannon is not that, whatever else she is.  There is quite a bit of empirical evidence that she is indecisive and easily distracted by irrelevant issues in cases not involving Donald J. Trump. 

This is pretty common among rookie, marginally qualified judges, and quite a few pretty experienced ones.  In this day and age, with settlement and plea bargain resolving 90+% of all litigation, it is becoming increasingly difficult to find experienced trial lawyers to take judgeships, especially when political qualifications are part of the calculus if not the predominant factor.

If this had been assigned to any other judge with fewer than five years experience on the bench, and a whopping four jury trials under his/her belt as a lawyer, none as first chair, you could expect pretty similar results to what we're seeing here.  Add in the fact that most of the judge's litigation experience is appellate work, the nature of which is to give undue consideration to esoteric legal issues on a relaxed schedule, and it just makes it that much worse.

Edited June 25 by TwiceHorn

[Captainant 28565]

32 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

You are quite certain of what is happening or what has happened, but you don't actually know.  And neither do I, but I don't express any certainty.

Of course you are uncertain as to if aileen is in the tank for trump. Heaven perish the thought of anyone in the judiciary not being objective!

['stache 22145]

She's definitely corrupt based on how she's doing things and what she's writing and saying. The only "law dog" point I've made here is that delay, in and of itself, is not a sign of corruption. Even a moderately wealthy defendant can delay criminal proceedings for years with motions and appeals etc. She's giving herself away though with her actions. 

[dcbc 14644]

10 minutes ago, Captainant said:

Of course you are uncertain as to if aileen is in the tank for trump. Heaven perish the thought of anyone in the judiciary not being objective!

Regardless of bias, he's spot on in his assessment.  She exhibits classic "baby judge" tendencies, which contributes to the delay through an inability to be decisive and a reliance on unnecessary briefing and protracted hearings on red-herring issues that could be disposed of efficiently on submission by a more experienced jurist.  Bias will be most evident in untenable rulings in Trump's failure which ultimately are dispatched by the appellate court.  But any bias combined with inexperience is similar in effect to opioids on the digestive tract of the judicial process.

[safe sex 12023]

Man, when I'm out of my depth in something, I ask for help or for someone to take over for me so I can learn by observation. Yeah it's kind of embarrassing, but making a medical error is a big deal, so I try to err on the side of caution. 

[dcbc 14644]

10 minutes ago, safe sex said:

Man, when I'm out of my depth in something, I ask for help or for someone to take over for me so I can learn by observation. Yeah it's kind of embarrassing, but making a medical error is a big deal, so I try to err on the side of caution. 

This is the problem with appointing ideologues to positions of power regardless of experience.  Elections have consequences.  The contrast between Cannon and Merchan could not be more stark.

Edited June 25 by dcbc

[TwiceHorn 32083]

5 minutes ago, dcbc said:

This is the problem with appointing ideologues to positions of power regardless of experience.  Elections have consequences.  The contrast between Cannon and Merchan could not be more stark.

And Engoron for that matter. I think Merchan did a better job at appearing fair, though, or hiding his contempt for Trump and his counsel and their arguments. 

I see today that Cannon got pissy with the government over the gag order. One difference there is that the government sought to modify his bail conditions to include the gag order, which is somewhat understandable given Trumps contempt for the other ones. But it's also highly unusual. 

By and large, the government is playing the case pretty straight, but I am gathering data points here and there that Jay Bratt is pretty much a giant prick and that may cost them. 

[TexArcher 39074]

I can't believe there are still people trying to give any explanation for Aileen Cannon other than the painfully obvious one.

[YGIFS 19458]

That the framers never considered the possibility that a federal judge appointed by a sitting U.S. President who would later have to appear before that judge to answer for treasonous acts against the Republic could be in a compromised position?  I know they get a bad rap, these old white men in whigs...but fucking-A, how the hell could have seen this coming?  

[dcbc 14644]

33 minutes ago, TexArcher said:

I can't believe there are still people trying to give any explanation for Aileen Cannon other than the painfully obvious one.

Because it can only be one thing.  Okay, Curly.

 

 

I think I'm on record for some time now that it likely is both bias and incompetence.  The fact that I don't predict the future or speak in absolutes should not be interpreted as a change in opinion just because I don't have a conclusion paragraph at the end of every post on the subject.

Edited June 25 by dcbc

[dcbc 14644]

27 minutes ago, YGIFS said:

That the framers never considered the possibility that a federal judge appointed by a sitting U.S. President who would later have to appear before that judge to answer for treasonous acts against the Republic could be in a compromised position?  I know they get a bad rap, these old white men in whigs...but fucking-A, how the hell could have seen this coming?  

Well, there is impeachment, but tribalism has all but nullified that avenue.

[Captainant 28565]

53 minutes ago, dcbc said:

This is the problem with appointing ideologues to positions of power regardless of experience.  Elections have consequences.  The contrast between Cannon and Merchan could not be more stark.

I think it's ridiculous that the judicial system has no error correction mechanism when a judge is clearly not fit for the bench. I appreciate that such a mechanism would immediately be used as a weapon by the fascists, were it ever to exist, but holy fucking shit having no way to deal with it makes us just as vulnerable to extremely negative outcomes. 

5 minutes ago, dcbc said:

Because it can only be one thing.  Okay, Curly.

I don't think it matters if it's anything else, isn't that plain corruption enough on its own? Why are you surly lawyers bending over backwards to fondle the balls of a busted and farcical judicial system?

[Dahobbs 18328]

1 hour ago, Captainant said:

Of course you are uncertain as to if aileen is in the tank for trump. Heaven perish the thought of anyone in the judiciary not being objective!

It is still beyond me why you're such an asshole to @TwiceHorn as if he has any ability to remove the judge. Your otherwise a good poster. Here, you're just an asshole and should be treated as such. 

[YGIFS 19458]

Fair point on impeachment, but going through myriad Federalist Papers, the judiciary impeachment mechanism was largely performative.  To appear 'fair and balanced' and offer a level by which some psychotic, senile judge could be removed.  Prima facia, it does not appear to have been installed as a way to remove a federal judge from ruling on a President who appointed her.  And one day soon, when this question is taken up the SCOTUS...they will lean heavily on the fact that the 'Historical Precent of Strict Constructionism' of the Constitution does not preclude a Federal Judge from ruling on the person who appointed her, therefore she should be given every wide, legal berth with which to carry out justice.  This is it folks, this is how it ends. 

[dcbc 14644]

27 minutes ago, Captainant said:

I think it's ridiculous that the judicial system has no error correction mechanism when a judge is clearly not fit for the bench. I appreciate that such a mechanism would immediately be used as a weapon by the fascists, were it ever to exist, but holy fucking shit having no way to deal with it makes us just as vulnerable to extremely negative outcomes. 

I don't think it matters if it's anything else, isn't that plain corruption enough on its own? Why are you surly lawyers bending over backwards to fondle the balls of a busted and farcical judicial system?

Well, there is error correction.  But like I said, it's pretty well neutered by tribalism.

 

And dial back the hyperbole.  I don't know what you do for a living, but the fact that you indict the entire judicial system because some bad actors exist within it seems pretty ridiculous.  It's not perfect.  We get it.  But what most of us are doing our best to accomplish here (on Surly) is explaining how things tend to work for the uninitiated and calling out bullshit in the system where it arises.  And some of us are doing our best to uphold the pillars of fairness and impartiality within the system.I don't know what you expect anyone to do in response to your constant complaints and hand-wringing.  Sometimes it works.  Sometimes it's fucked.  It's a little bit of both.  But the fact that some of us are not running around here like our hair is on fire just yet isn't the equivalent of a sexual kow tow to something you're decided to be wholly ineffectual.  If there's something to be fixed, let's fix it.  How do we go about that?  Is it whining on the internet?  No.  But keep fucking that chicken for all the good it does.

 

Are you a shepherd?  What do you do for a living?  I'm sure your industry is a model of perfection.

Edited June 25 by dcbc

[dcbc 14644]

5 minutes ago, YGIFS said:

Fair point on impeachment, but going through myriad Federalist Papers, the judiciary impeachment mechanism was largely performative.  To appear 'fair and balanced' and offer a level by which some psychotic, senile judge could be removed.  Prima facia, it does not appear to have been installed as a way to remove a federal judge from ruling on a President who appointed her.  And one day soon, when this question is taken up the SCOTUS...they will lean heavily on the fact that the 'Historical Precent of Strict Constructionism' of the Constitution does not preclude a Federal Judge from ruling on the person who appointed her, therefore she should be given every wide, legal berth with which to carry out justice.  This is it folks, this is how it ends. 

Yeah.  Tribalism.  It's there.  It won't be used.  Elections have consequences.

[locodos 5591]

5 minutes ago, dcbc said:

Yeah.  Tribalism.  It's there.  It won't be used.  Elections have consequences.

So much this...  the real bummer is that the Senate is where this all goes sideways... and you can't even put it on gerrymandering

[dcbc 14644]

5 minutes ago, locodos said:

So much this...  the real bummer is that the Senate is where this all goes sideways... and you can't even put it on gerrymandering

"But her emails . . . "

 

I'm sure there are plenty here who just couldn't pull the handle for Hillary because reasons.

Edited June 25 by dcbc

[YGIFS 19458]

8 minutes ago, dcbc said:

Yeah.  Tribalism.  It's there.  It won't be used.  Elections have consequences.

True, true.  There've been dozens of Federal Judges of myriad benches who've been impeached.  Most were discarded, never fully convitced, pardones, or simply lost to time.  Ricks of Ohio is about the closest parallel I've studied that comes closest to Cannon's situation.  But it's a far second place.  

But Aileen would do well to note that the odds of Trump winning a legit election in 2024 and upper her status to Courts of Appeal or SCOTUS are about the same as the Democrats taking back the House and retaining the Senate.  Which, even for those spineless folks, would spell out certain impeachment and conviction in both chambers for her.  Probably even loss of license.  Georgia is gonna carry their case through until the end.  Democrats may be forced to lay off the D.C. Inciting Insurrection case at some point to "work across the aisle."  But Aileen has to understand at some point between the 2024-2032 cycles, she will have to answer for her dodging of national security breaches.  Right now, she's trying to ass-kiss and delay for Trump.  But at some point in the next 8 years, she knows this will come back all on her because he'll be gone and she's left holding the bag.  She's naive, but she isn't stupid.  

[TwiceHorn 32083]

1 hour ago, safe sex said:

Man, when I'm out of my depth in something, I ask for help or for someone to take over for me so I can learn by observation. Yeah it's kind of embarrassing, but making a medical error is a big deal, so I try to err on the side of caution. 

Well, that evidences a certain maturity, professionalism, and subjugation of your pride.

Although I think it was entirely warranted, if the Chief Judge and another judge actually suggested that she decline the assignment, no matter what their stated reasons, that had to be incredibly professionally humiliating.  A judge voluntarily "recusing" (it's not really recusal if there aren't actual grounds) is the mark of a mature professional.  Again, Cannon does not seem to be that.

[Gatorubet 30727]

20 minutes ago, Captainant said:

I don't think it matters if it's anything else, isn't that plain corruption enough on its own? Why are you surly lawyers bending over backwards to fondle the balls of a busted and farcical judicial system?

[Captainant 28565]

22 minutes ago, dcbc said:

If there's something to be fixed, let's fix it.  How do we go about that?  Is it whining on the internet?  No.  But keep fucking that chicken for all the good it does.

We go about fixing it by passing legislation

....

So we're all completely fucked until our democracy's fever breaks or our experiment comes to an end. Last time things were this dire socially it took a fucking surprise outside act of war to unify the nation.

[BehoId, The Underminer! 11669]

17 minutes ago, locodos said:

So much this...  the real bummer is that the Senate is where this all goes sideways... and you can't even put it on gerrymandering

the original gerrymander

[elfenix 34753]

17 minutes ago, locodos said:

So much this...  the real bummer is that the Senate is where this all goes sideways... and you can't even put it on gerrymandering

The fact that the senate was gerrymandered a long ass time ago doesn’t mean it’s not gerrymandered.

[TexArcher 39074]

46 minutes ago, dcbc said:

Because it can only be one thing.  Okay, Curly.

 

 

I think I'm on record for some time now that it likely is both bias and incompetence.  The fact that I don't predict the future or speak in absolutes should not be interpreted as a change in opinion just because I don't have a conclusion paragraph at the end of every post on the subject.

Of course it can be both.

But if it's bias and incompetence, the bias is what matters.  Hell, if she were more competent, she might be able to be biased more effectively.

The point is that she's in the bag.

[TwiceHorn 32083]

5 minutes ago, TexArcher said:

Of course it can be both.

But if it's bias and incompetence, the bias is what matters.  Hell, if she were more competent, she might be able to be biased more effectively.

The point is that she's in the bag.

Why does it matter, for now, if the outcome is the same?  Incompetence, if not cured, is a longer-term problem.  

Edited June 25 by TwiceHorn

[locodos 5591]

10 minutes ago, elfenix said:

The fact that the senate was gerrymandered a long ass time ago doesn’t mean it’s not gerrymandered.

 

10 minutes ago, BehoId, The Underminer! said:

the original gerrymander

Yeah I get that, but my point is that Florida and  Texas have bat shit crazy senators...  you can't just blame the game (politics) you've got to blame the player (our fellow iggit countrymen)

 

[TexArcher 39074]

25 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

Why does it matter, for now, if the outcome is the same?  Incompetence, if not cured, is a longer-term problem.  

Why does it matter?  Really?

Okay, let's say the Red Sox and the Yankees are playing, and they get notoriously awful umpire Angel Hernandez.  Let's say ol' Angel misses 30% of his ball/strike calls overall.

Now, in this game, Angel misses his usual 30% of calls in ways that hurt the Red Sox, because he's incompetent, but he misses 100% of his calls in ways that hurt the Yankees, because the Red Sox paid him to...  If he were just being his usual incompetent self, it would be hurting both teams more or less equally...

Now, this isn't a baseball game.  It's a judge who keeps fucking up in ways that benefit the completely corrupt side over and over again, and by the way, the defendent gave her the job.  Yeah, that matters a little more than the fact that she's inexperienced.

Edited June 25 by TexArcher