Former President Donald Trump Indicted

[royiv 9342]

20 minutes ago, Cheeseweasel said:

This is what happens when you get your news from CR/Twitter.

He's being charged with USING HIS OWN MONEY not campaign funds. Ironically, if he used campaign funds, the charge would make more sense. 

Read up on in kind donations. Besides that, how do you feel about a President fucking a porn star while his wife is at home with their young son? What about a President that espouses to represent the religious right? Do you find that hypocritical?

[royiv 9342]

11 minutes ago, GoPokes83 said:

Don’t give a solitary shit about any of this, but I was a little irked that he was arrested and fingerprinted, but no mugshot was taken. Not saying they should have performed a cavity search, but if a mugshot’s required for every other person arrested…

Not a solitary shit about a former President being charged with multiple felonies?

[royiv 9342]

1 minute ago, GoPokes83 said:

News said he didn’t have one taken

What’s the point? Everyone knows what he looks like. It would just give him an opportunity to grift. He’s doing it anyway with the photoshopped mugshot that claims he is 6’5”.

[Cheeseweasel 26438]

Trump is not my guy. Never will be. Just stating the facts regarding the legal aspects of the case.

 

Here's a decent analysis:

Analysis: Trump hush money case raises thorny legal issues

https://www.seattlepi.com/news/politics/article/analysis-trump-hush-money-case-raises-thorny-17879106.php

 

“The bottom line is that it’s murky,” said Richard Hasen, an expert in election law and professor at the University of California, Los Angeles law school. "And the district attorney did not offer a detailed legal analysis as to how they can do this, how they can get around these potential hurdles. And it could potentially tie up the case for a long time."

 

 

[royiv 9342]

2 minutes ago, Cheeseweasel said:

Trump is not my guy. Never will be. Just stating the facts regarding the legal aspects of the case.

 

Here's a decent analysis:

Analysis: Trump hush money case raises thorny legal issues

https://www.seattlepi.com/news/politics/article/analysis-trump-hush-money-case-raises-thorny-17879106.php

 

“The bottom line is that it’s murky,” said Richard Hasen, an expert in election law and professor at the University of California, Los Angeles law school. "And the district attorney did not offer a detailed legal analysis as to how they can do this, how they can get around these potential hurdles. And it could potentially tie up the case for a long time."

 

 

Then why are you using gifs based on Eric Trump’s rants and handing out random negs in the Costco thread? Seems like you have your panties twisted which is a very Trumpian attribute. As far as facts go, that’s up to the court to determine. 

Edited April 5, 2023 by royiv

[UnivTex34 1763]

6 minutes ago, GoPokes83 said:

News said he didn’t have one taken

got it, can't read everything and keep a job, so that is also not surprising.

[Biff Tannen 45724]

1 minute ago, royiv said:

Then why are you using gifs based on Eric Trump’s rants and handing out random negs in the Costco thread? Seems like you have your panties twisted which is a very Trumpian attribute. As far as facts go, that’s up to the court to determine. 

Dotard is just so persecuted.  Everyone is being so unfair!

[huge 3795]

6 minutes ago, royiv said:

Read up on in kind donations. Besides that, how do you feel about a President fucking a porn star while his wife is at home with their young son? What about a President that espouses to represent the religious right? Do you find that hypocritical?

I find it terribly hypocritical.  Being the worst person I can think of isn't a crime though.  Let's see if any of this sticks.

[royiv 9342]

Just now, UnivTex34 said:

got it, can't read everything and keep a job, so that is also not surprising.

You were also right, they don’t release them to the public as a routine order of business.

[royiv 9342]

1 minute ago, huge said:

I find it terribly hypocritical.  Being the worst person I can think of isn't a crime though.  Let's see if any of this sticks.

What if, and stick with me here, the worst person alive is also a criminal?

[Cheeseweasel 26438]

4 minutes ago, royiv said:

Then why are you using gifs based on Eric Trump’s rants and handing out random negs in the Costco thread? Seems like you have your panties twisted which is a very Trumpian attribute. As far as facts go, that’s up to the court to determine. 

I times I wonder what the CR is like. Then it spills into the normal threads and I don't have to wonder any more. 

[huge 3795]

1 minute ago, royiv said:

What if, and stick with me here, the worst person alive is also a criminal?

Then try him and convict him like you do with criminals.  Here is the thing.  This is hardly a slam dunk from what I have read.  If he gets off that is going to be an even bigger shitshow.

[aggie08 21529]

44 minutes ago, Cheeseweasel said:

This is what happens when you get your news from CR/Twitter.

He's being charged with USING HIS OWN MONEY not campaign funds. Ironically, if he used campaign funds, the charge would make more sense. 

Michael Cohen went to jail for, among other things, lumping that $130k hush money payment in with election-related expenses for reimbursement. If you want to believe that he acted independently, that's a choice.

Edited April 5, 2023 by aggie08

[royiv 9342]

3 minutes ago, huge said:

Then try him and convict him like you do with criminals.  Here is the thing.  This is hardly a slam dunk from what I have read.  If he gets off that is going to be an even bigger shitshow.

That’s exactly what is happening. A grand jury reviewed evidence, voted to return an indictment and now we’re seeing the process continue to play out. I don’t disagree that it’s not a slam dunk. Nothing ever is with Trump and of the multiple open investigations into his alleged criminal dealings, I think this one is going to be the most difficult to get to stick.

[royiv 9342]

9 minutes ago, Cheeseweasel said:

I times I wonder what the CR is like. Then it spills into the normal threads and I don't have to wonder any more. 

If only everyone could be as enlightened as you and see that Eric Trump is our national source of truth.

[BehoId, The Underminer! 11669]

I hate that we have to caveat everything to make sure people know we aren't Trumpsters, but here is my caveat:  He's the worst person ever elected president by orders of magnitude.  Now that is out of the way --

 

This doesn't feel great to me.  I have zero point zero doubt that he is actually guilty.  But this is Al Capone tax charges.  You don't get the Don on direct involvement with crimes very often, so you gotta go with what you've got, even if they are a bit ticky tack.  But my guess is this is the 20th worst crime he has committed or encouraged others to commit in the past 10 years.

[Foosters 17884]

2 minutes ago, BehoId, The Underminer! said:

I hate that we have to caveat everything to make sure people know we aren't Trumpsters, but here is my caveat:  He's the worst person ever elected president by orders of magnitude.  Now that is out of the way --

 

This doesn't feel great to me.  I have zero point zero doubt that he is actually guilty.  But this is Al Capone tax charges.  You don't get the Don on direct involvement with crimes very often, so you gotta go with what you've got, even if they are a bit ticky tack.  But my guess is this is the 20th worst crime he has committed or encouraged others to commit in the past 10 years.

There's still Georgia and the DOJ.

Looking forward to the more measured discussion in here as we go forward. Maybe some additional gifs whining about how prosecuting someone for trying to illegally rig an election = "BaNAnA rEPUbLIc!"

[crash_davis 23115]

This article gives further context on the office which is bringing the charges.

TLDR: They routinely prosecute for this shit. Trump is just another person breaking the law, allegedly. 

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/04/04/opinion/donald-trump-alvin-bragg-indictment-charges.html

First, a note about the Manhattan D.A.’s office that will prosecute this case: It is hardly a typical local cog in the judicial system. In fact, it is unique. Its jurisdiction is the financial capital of the world. That means the office routinely prosecutes complex white-collar cases with crime scenes that involve the likes of the BNP Paribas international banking scandal. Big cases involving powerful, high-profile individuals have been handled by the office for decades. That was proved most recently by the office’s conviction of the Trump Organization and the guilty plea of one of its top executives, Allen Weisselberg, on charges relating to an intricate yearslong tax fraud scheme.

The books and records counts laid out in the charging papers against Mr. Trump are the bread and butter of the D.A.’s office. Mr. Trump, who pleaded not guilty to all charges on Tuesday, is the 30th defendant to be indicted on false records charges by Mr. Bragg since he took office just over a year ago, with the D.A. bringing 151 counts under the statute so far. Indeed, the Trump Organization conviction and the Weisselberg plea included business falsification felonies.

The 34 felony books and records counts in the Trump indictment turn on the misstatement of the hush-money payment to Stormy Daniels arranged by Michael Cohen in the waning days of the 2016 election and the repayment of that amount by Mr. Trump to Mr. Cohen, ostensibly as legal expenses. There are 11 counts for false invoices, 11 for false checks and check stubs and 12 for false general ledger entries. This allegedly violated the false records statute when various entries were made in business documents describing those repayments as legal fees.

Edited April 5, 2023 by crash_davis

[YGIFS 19452]

Okay, can we all at least agree on some kinda meme where Kramer puts down the camera and says something like, “oh man, the shaman guy fell off his bike…..that’s precious!”   ???

cry, cry again.  

[crash_davis 23115]

Just now, YGIFS said:

Okay, can we all at least agree on some kinda meme where Kramer puts down the camera and says something like, “oh man, the shaman guy fell off his bike…..that’s precious!”   ???

cry, cry again.  

Supposedly that Shaman guy is a troll/performance artist and is not in fact a MAGA shaman. He was just playing one for the Likes, of course.

[Cheeseweasel 26438]

8 minutes ago, BehoId, The Underminer! said:

This doesn't feel great to me.

It shouldn't. Just like we don't want rogue cops arresting people because "they know they are guilty of something", we don't want rogue prosecutors doing the same.

Our nation is built on presumption of innocence and everyone celebrating this needs to consider the consequences for every future defendant.  

[Foosters 17884]

1 minute ago, Cheeseweasel said:

It shouldn't. Just like we don't want rogue cops arresting people because "they know they are guilty of something", we don't want rogue prosecutors doing the same.

Our nation is built on presumption of innocence and everyone celebrating this needs to consider the consequences for every future defendant.  

LOCK HER UP 

[ChickenSandwich 9850]

Hold all politicians to the same standard and this is a good thing. 
 

Have my doubts this will be a good thing lol

[Cheeseweasel 26438]

4 minutes ago, crash_davis said:

This article gives further context on the office which is bringing the charges.

TLDR: They routinely prosecute for shit. Trump is just another person breaking the law, allegedly. 

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/04/04/opinion/donald-trump-alvin-bragg-indictment-charges.html

First, a note about the Manhattan D.A.’s office that will prosecute this case: It is hardly a typical local cog in the judicial system. In fact, it is unique. Its jurisdiction is the financial capital of the world. That means the office routinely prosecutes complex white-collar cases with crime scenes that involve the likes of the BNP Paribas international banking scandal. Big cases involving powerful, high-profile individuals have been handled by the office for decades. That was proved most recently by the office’s conviction of the Trump Organization and the guilty plea of one of its top executives, Allen Weisselberg, on charges relating to an intricate yearslong tax fraud scheme.

The books and records counts laid out in the charging papers against Mr. Trump are the bread and butter of the D.A.’s office. Mr. Trump, who pleaded not guilty to all charges on Tuesday, is the 30th defendant to be indicted on false records charges by Mr. Bragg since he took office just over a year ago, with the D.A. bringing 151 counts under the statute so far. Indeed, the Trump Organization conviction and the Weisselberg plea included business falsification felonies.

The 34 felony books and records counts in the Trump indictment turn on the misstatement of the hush-money payment to Stormy Daniels arranged by Michael Cohen in the waning days of the 2016 election and the repayment of that amount by Mr. Trump to Mr. Cohen, ostensibly as legal expenses. There are 11 counts for false invoices, 11 for false checks and check stubs and 12 for false general ledger entries. This allegedly violated the false records statute when various entries were made in business documents describing those repayments as legal fees.

They are going to have to do a serious song and dance to make this a felony. 

[DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt 12301]

3 minutes ago, Cheeseweasel said:

It shouldn't. Just like we don't want rogue cops arresting people because "they know they are guilty of something", we don't want rogue prosecutors doing the same.

Our nation is built on presumption of innocence and everyone celebrating this needs to consider the consequences for every future defendant.  

[crash_davis 23115]

5 minutes ago, Cheeseweasel said:

It shouldn't. Just like we don't want rogue cops arresting people because "they know they are guilty of something", we don't want rogue prosecutors doing the same.

Our nation is built on presumption of innocence and everyone celebrating this needs to consider the consequences for every future defendant.  

While I applaud your attempt at higher ground, just research how many times Trump or interests he's involved in have been sued, research how many of his business associates have been charged and/or in jail. If it quacks like a duck...

Edited April 5, 2023 by crash_davis

[crash_davis 23115]

1 minute ago, Cheeseweasel said:

They are going to have to do a serious song and dance to make this a felony. 

They think they have a case, the Grand Jury seems to think they have a case...

[royiv 9342]

1 minute ago, crash_davis said:

While I applaud your attempt at higher ground, just research how many times Trump or interests he's involved in has been sued, research how many of his business associates have been charged and/or in jail. If it quacks like a duck...

And add how many times Trump or his interests have used the court system to bully and intimidate adversaries.

[Cheeseweasel 26438]

1 minute ago, crash_davis said:

They think they have a case, the Grand Jury seems to think they have a case...

Ham. Sandwich.

[Laxtonto 12112]

Just now, Cheeseweasel said:

They are going to have to do a serious song and dance to make this a felony. 

This whole thing seems like an overcharge looking for a plea, which I would normally expect for financial crimes with a shaky premise but all it does is feed the narrative that he is being targeted for political reasons. I would not be shocked the see this eventually end up in federal court and not resolved for years.

[SydneyCarton 48161]

6 minutes ago, Cheeseweasel said:

It shouldn't. Just like we don't want rogue cops arresting people because "they know they are guilty of something", we don't want rogue prosecutors doing the same.

Our nation is built on presumption of innocence and everyone celebrating this needs to consider the consequences for every future defendant.  

"Rogue prosecutor." I suppose he also managed to round up 23 people complicit and formed a "rogue grand jury" who listened to evidence and thought 34 felonies charges or whatever the number seemed appropriate? All that's missing from your post is "George Soros DA"

[Cheeseweasel 26438]

2 minutes ago, crash_davis said:

While I applaud your attempt at higher ground, just research how many times Trump or interests he's involved in have been sued, research how many of his business associates have been charged and/or in jail. If it quacks like a duck...

Like I said before, he's not my kind of guy. He's a scumbag business person. But this case is flimsy at best, especially from a prosecutor with a reputation for downgrading charges.

Just now, SydneyCarton said:

"Rogue prosecutor." I suppose he also managed to round up 23 people complicit and formed a "rogue grand jury" who listened to evidence and thought 34 felonies charges or whatever the number seemed appropriate? All that's missing from your post is "George Soros DA"

Ham. Sandwich.

[aggie08 21529]

12 minutes ago, BehoId, The Underminer! said:

I hate that we have to caveat everything to make sure people know we aren't Trumpsters, but here is my caveat:  He's the worst person ever elected president by orders of magnitude.  Now that is out of the way --

 

This doesn't feel great to me.  I have zero point zero doubt that he is actually guilty.  But this is Al Capone tax charges.  You don't get the Don on direct involvement with crimes very often, so you gotta go with what you've got, even if they are a bit ticky tack.  But my guess is this is the 20th worst crime he has committed or encouraged others to commit in the past 10 years.

This is exactly where I'm at. I'm not naive; I realize hush payments and loose campaign fund accounting aren't exactly rare in politics. So, like you mention, this feels a little hollow for his first (maybe there's more coming) indictment.

But, I keep coming back to: should we try to hold all Americans to the same legal standard or not? If this was anyone else*, they would have gone to trial years ago.

*You can probably argue that a "normal politician" wouldn't have gotten caught--in part because they're not as scrutinized as Trump; in part because they wouldn't have been so fucking clumsy about it--but not sure that's the point.

[Laxtonto 12112]

Your wife hasn't been seen for 3 weeks, they found a bloody knife in the basement with her DNA on it, you have a big life insurance policy on her and we think you are a bad person and so Im going to take it to the grand jury for a murder indictment.

Now just because you know and can prove that your wife is out of the country visiting her best friend from college and she cut her hand while opening a box before she left and you forgot to clean up because she was rushing to get to the airport before she left doesn't mean that that evidence gets presented to the grand jury.  Now the prosecutor would probably get disbarred for that level of prosecutorial misconduct, but the joke of being able to indict a ham sandwich is there for a reason.

[wildcat09 29378]

32 minutes ago, BehoId, The Underminer! said:

I hate that we have to caveat everything to make sure people know we aren't Trumpsters, but here is my caveat:  He's the worst person ever elected president by orders of magnitude.  Now that is out of the way --

 

This doesn't feel great to me.  I have zero point zero doubt that he is actually guilty.  But this is Al Capone tax charges.  You don't get the Don on direct involvement with crimes very often, so you gotta go with what you've got, even if they are a bit ticky tack.  But my guess is this is the 20th worst crime he has committed or encouraged others to commit in the past 10 years.

You left a couple of zeroes out. It’s no higher than the 2,000th worst crime he’s committed in the last decade. That’s what makes it so funny that this is the first he’s charged for.

[Pam Cummings 9658]

330 million people in this country and we couldn't find someone smarter than this guy.

[Cheeseweasel 26438]

4 minutes ago, Laxtonto said:

but the joke of being able to indict a ham sandwich is there for a reason.

It's mainly because there is no defense in a Grand Jury. There's no requirement to present the opposing argument or present exculpatory evidence. They are winning a one sided argument. 

[YGIFS 19452]

26 minutes ago, crash_davis said:

[Brothahorn 10087]

Ultimately, Trump has no one to blame but Trump for this mess.

But this is obviously political.

[Wally Fairway 5584]

36 minutes ago, Brothahorn said:

Ultimately, Trump has no one to blame but Trump for this mess.

But this is obviously political.

It is like you have never heard him orate, he has everyone to blame but Trump

[wildcat09 29378]

41 minutes ago, Brothahorn said:

Ultimately, Trump has no one to blame but Trump for this mess.

But this is obviously political.

The justice system is inherently political.

[Cheeseweasel 26438]

1 hour ago, wildcat09 said:

The justice system is inherently political.

[Skipper 6196]

2 hours ago, Laxtonto said:

This whole thing seems like an overcharge looking for a plea, which I would normally expect for financial crimes with a shaky premise but all it does is feed the narrative that he is being targeted for political reasons. 

This is how I'm coming out so far.  I despise that motherfucker and have little doubt he's committed dozens of meaningful crimes but have not seen anything yet that has convinced me THIS is the case to bring.  Years and years ago early in my career I saw something on the civil side where a NY AG basically shut down a company that impacted a transaction my client was involved in.  My client was subpoenaed and we cooperated.   The company involved did have some questionable practices but it actually floored me how little the NY AG attorneys involved understood about what they were alleging.  I was on a call explaining the business at an elementary level to lead attorneys at the NYAG that had been working on this for months and had already destroyed the business.  I was floored at the incompetence.  Counsel for the company told me before the call it was BS but it was an election year and the AG wanted some positive headlines,  I went in naive thinking no way power would be wielded in that manner for political reasons but he was pretty clearly correct in hindsight.  So yeah, while I'm hopeful there is more to this supporting the felony charge I'm reminded of that experience.  And if it ends up super flimsy I hate they have given that asshole and his idiotic followers all this ammo.

[SamsCorner 395]

2 hours ago, crash_davis said:

While I applaud your attempt at higher ground, just research how many times Trump or interests he's involved in have been sued, research how many of his business associates have been charged and/or in jail. If it quacks like a duck...

I'd like to know why the state of New York took so long to actually charge this guy with a crime, it's obvious he's been to this for years.  Why wait until he's an ex-president?  Could have saved us a lot of trouble.  I guess it used to be cool that Trump was from NYC, always a cameo in something.  He was good for business.

[Cheeseweasel 26438]

14 minutes ago, SamsCorner said:

I'd like to know why the state of New York took so long to actually charge this guy with a crime

Ironically, Statute of Limitations might be the biggest hurdle they face.

[Beau Vine 54412]

3 hours ago, GoPokes83 said:

Don’t give a solitary shit about any of this, but I was a little irked that he was arrested and fingerprinted, but no mugshot was taken. Not saying they should have performed a cavity search, but if a mugshot’s required for every other person arrested…

The Trump Organization is also irked about that because it threw a wrench into their fundraising plans:

 

[Cheeseweasel 26438]

3 hours ago, Foosters said:

Looking forward to the more measured discussion in here as we go forward. Maybe some additional gifs whining about how prosecuting someone for trying to illegally rig an election = "BaNAnA rEPUbLIc!"

I'll make a deal with you. If Trump is convicted (and it survives appeal) of a felony in this case, I'll stop posting here. No socks, no nothing. Gone. But if Trump is not convicted of a felony in this case (including appeal) you leave. No socks. Just, no more Surly.

Deal?

[Chuckie Finster 22727]

Why is everyone acting like there's only one chance to prosecute Trump?

Holding off on an indictment for a crime that you believe he committed because you are trying to coordinate with other investigations to maximize the potential of conviction WOULD be a case of prosecutorial misconduct and warrant the accusations of politicization that are currently taking place.

"They shouldn't prosecute him because he's definitely committed worse crimes" is fucking insane rationale.

[Skipper 6196]

6 minutes ago, Chuckie Finster said:

Why is everyone acting like there's only one chance to prosecute Trump?

Because if this DA embarrasses himself trying to make this case, it gives Trump and his supporters ammo that it ALL is a "witch hunt" and makes it that much harder for the next one.  

[Chuckie Finster 22727]

2 minutes ago, Skipper said:

Because if this DA embarrasses himself trying to make this case, it gives Trump and his supporters ammo that it ALL is a "witch hunt" and makes it that much harder for the next one.  

The next court date in this case is in December.  If the "next ones" haven't progressed by that point, then this conversation is meaningless in terms of 2024 anyway.

(Also, Trump and his supporters are going to cry "witch hunt" regardless of how the DA performs here.)

Edited April 5, 2023 by Chuckie Finster