Woman shot and killed after car she was in pulled into the wrong driveway

[52-80 19159]

17 minutes ago, aggie08 said:

 

I mean, duh. States with less guns in circulation, a less pervasive gun culture, and more strict gun control regulations have less firearm-related deaths, and thus less homicides. Because of course they do. Pretty obvious stuff.

 

 

25 minutes ago, lemonlime said:

Not sure if serious.  But yes.  California and NY have lower homicide rates than Texas.  And these charts go back to 2005.

 https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/sosmap/homicide_mortality/homicide.htm

 

if the gun-specific mortality rate shows a difference between states with restrictions, surely, surely, fewer means of weapons (=guns) in california means fewer homicides...

oh, wait, for 2 decades, both states on the opposite political and policy spectrum still have its folks killing people at the rate of 5-6/100k

[aggie08 21504]

30 minutes ago, 52-80 said:

 

 

 

if the gun-specific mortality rate shows a difference between states with restrictions, surely, surely, fewer means of weapons (=guns) in california means fewer homicides...

oh, wait, for 2 decades, both states on the opposite political and policy spectrum still have its folks killing people at the rate of 5-6/100k

Source? Because the CDC generally disagrees with you. No, not by orders of magnitude, but Texas is consistently higher year-over-year, getting into the 7-8 homicides/100k range during the COVID years.

And what of your other example, NY? Which is indeed significantly lower than Texas in both firearm-related deaths AND homicides? What would be your explanation?

[52-80 19159]

26 minutes ago, aggie08 said:

Source? Because the CDC generally disagrees with you. No, not by orders of magnitude, but Texas is consistently higher year-over-year, getting into the 7-8 homicides/100k range during the COVID years.

And what of your other example, NY? Which is indeed significantly lower than Texas in both firearm-related deaths AND homicides? What would be your explanation?

https://cde.ucr.cjis.gov/LATEST/webapp/#/pages/home

was california’s “less pervasive gun culture, and more strict gun control regulation” vs texas’ a mere 2 year phenomenon ?

 

is new yorks gun culture more or less prevalent than california? do they have fewer rednecks? why is their homicide  lower than *california*, too, not in 1 year, but for almost all years, (with all 3 states showing same long term shapes)

 

fyi, new york has 1 police officer to 300 residents. california has 400. 

[closetohumping 17442]

26 minutes ago, 52-80 said:

https://cde.ucr.cjis.gov/LATEST/webapp/#/pages/home

was california’s “less pervasive gun culture, and more strict gun control regulation” vs texas’ a mere 2 year phenomenon ?

 

is new yorks gun culture more or less prevalent than california? do they have fewer rednecks? why is their homicide  lower than *california*, too, not in 1 year, but for almost all years, (with all 3 states showing same long term shapes)

 

fyi, new york has 1 police officer to 300 residents. california has 400. 

So where are the New York stats fella?

[bolverk 29681]

Killer described as having a "dyspeptic and sometimes combative personality." Sounds like he was just another miserable misanthrope.

Oddly, the victim was also into competitive cheerleading.

Pretty sure I found the house at this location, if anyone wants to see the driveway. You'll note the United Presbyterian Church to the east/southeast mentioned in the spoilered article below. It also states that when the sheriff deputies were responding that they too went up a wrong driveway.

Spoiler

New Details Emerge in Deadly Upstate Shooting of Woman in Wrong Driveway
The man who fired on three vehicles that mistakenly drove up his driveway, killing a young woman, had a reputation as a sour character who did not like visitors.

HEBRON, N.Y. — The man who lived on the ridge above this little upstate town had long had a reputation among some residents as a sour character who barked at neighbors’ dogs, scolded a local church and was so averse to unannounced visitors that he had at one time used a chain to cordon off his quarter-mile-long drive.

On Saturday night, just before 10 p.m., Kaylin Gillis and a group of her friends were traveling in a caravan of two cars and a motorcycle that mistakenly drove up that same driveway. They were looking for a friend’s house — and were met with deadly gunfire, killing Ms. Gillis, 20.

It was warm, but overcast and dark, and the three vehicles, according to the county sheriff, turned off a highway and up the largely dirt road on which the man, Kevin Monahan, 65, lived, past several other homes.

They soon took a right turn into his drive, which is flanked by a tree with two worn “private property” signs, warning off trespassers, and a small “private drive” sign.

On Tuesday, a nearby resident, who declined to give his name because of the sensitivity surrounding the killing and the investigation, said he watched vehicles ascend the steep drive, their lights on, before seeing the motorcycle turn and start to descend.

Then, he heard a shot, followed by several seconds of silence. Then, a second shot rang out, though he and his wife initially believed it might have been fireworks.

“Our neighbor down the hill called and said, ‘Did you hear gunfire up there?’” the resident said. “And we said, ‘Oh, we heard something.’”

He said he immediately called 911. But in an indication of how difficult the area is to navigate, those police officers initially also went up the wrong driveway, so he called 911 again. “It’s hard to get your bearings unless you’re from here,” he said.

Ms. Gillis’s killing shocked residents in the area and leaving the nation to wonder at yet another seemingly senseless gun death.

Mr. Monahan was charged with second-degree murder in an attack that the Washington County sheriff, Jeffrey J. Murphy, described as unprovoked and unexplained.

“There was no threat,” he said on Tuesday. “They were leaving.”

The killing came just days after the shooting in Kansas City of a Black 16-year-old, Ralph Yarl, who was shot by an 84-year-old white man after mistakenly going to the wrong house while trying to pick up his brothers at a friend’s home on Thursday evening. He survived but was badly injured.

Unlike that case, what happened in Hebron did not have racial overtones: Ms. Gillis was white, and so is Mr. Monahan. But the aggression of the encounter and the idea that a simple wrong turn led to death nonetheless left many here and elsewhere shaken and wondering what prompted Mr. Monahan’s actions.

“I can’t imagine that this is something that someone who is my neighbor is capable of,” said Adam Matthews, who lives next to Mr. Monahan. “I don’t know what brings someone to that level.”

According to Sheriff Murphy, Ms. Gillis was one of four people in the last vehicle to turn around and was sitting in the front passenger seat when Mr. Monahan shot through the rear of the driver’s side.

“They all were still in proximity to the house and they all heard two gunshots,” he said. “They realized immediately that she had been shot, so they were frantically leaving the driveway.”

The cars soon fled, desperately searching for cell service, a challenge amid the rolling hills and sparse populations of Washington County, which borders Vermont. They finally found a cell signal about five miles away, on a road adjacent to a local cemetery.

Mr. Monahan was initially uncooperative when police arrived, according to Sheriff Murphy, who said that Mr. Monahan had refused to speak with investigators and “obtained a lawyer that night before he came out of the house.”

But Mr. Monahan’s lawyer, Kurt Mausert, disputed the sheriff’s account of the shooting, saying on Tuesday that the vehicles were speeding up the driveway, with engines revving and lights shining, which “certainly caused some level of alarm to an elderly gentleman who had an elderly wife.”

“Is that a fear-inducing scenario? Well maybe it is,” Mr. Mausert said. “It is not the simple scenario of these people took a wrong turn and within 20 seconds of them taking the wrong turn, this guy’s on his deck blasting away. That’s not what happened.”

Mr. Mausert added that Mr. Monahan “sincerely regrets this tragedy” and “feels terrible that there was a fatality,” but he scolded the sheriff for “basically acting as judge, jury and executioner.”

“When there’s a tragedy and a victim, everyone wants a villain,” he said. “But sometimes they’re just tragedies and victims and there are no villains. And this is one of those times.”

In an interview, Sheriff Murphy said that Ms. Gillis — a former competitive cheerleader, honor student and budding artist — was “a beautiful and kind soul” who had hoped to study marine biology.

“It’s just a tragic situation,” he said.

Albert Weils, a neighbor who lives three doors down from the Gillis family home in Schuylerville, about 25 miles southwest of Hebron, said that Ms. Gillis’s father, Andy Gillis, is a correction officer at Washington County Correctional Facility.

“We don’t think of stuff happening like that around here,” Mr. Weils said, adding, “It’s a total shame.”

The family was largely quiet on Tuesday, and Ms. Gillis’s grandfather, Jack Amodeo, said that they were huddled, trying to process the shooting. “It’s really brought us down to our knees,” he said.

Friends of the victim said that she and others may have been headed to a party held by other Schuylerville graduates when they went up the wrong driveway. “There was friends from this community who were at that party,” said Dallas Salls, who was a friend and works in a pizza place near the high school.

Her sister, Victoria Salls, 20, a close friend who was also a former downstairs neighbor in Schuylerville, said that Ms. Gillis was “the glue to her family.” She said that the shooting had made her and others scared to show up at someone’s door or pull into the wrong driveway.

And while she said she saw parallels with the Kansas City case, Ms. Salls noted that Ralph Yarl had somehow survived. Ms. Gillis, she said, is “never going to come home. She’s never going to see her sisters. She’s never going to be able to watch them grow up.”

In Hebron, a town of about 1,800 people about 60 miles northeast of Albany, several residents recalled Mr. Monahan as a dyspeptic and sometimes combative personality.

Mr. Matthews said that Mr. Monahan could be intimidating, striking a “righteous” attitude, and recalled an incident where a local church had put up floodlights over a basketball court thousands of feet from his home.

But, he said, Mr. Monahan — whose home has a porch and floor-to-ceiling windows with a commanding view of the valley, and the church, below — suspected something sinister.

“He felt that they had done it intentionally,” Mr. Matthews said. “This is the church, you know? It’s not like somebody set a spotlight up to highlight his house.”

Brian Campbell, the town supervisor, said in a blogpost that the shooting had deeply affected his “very quiet and tranquil town.”

He added: “I can’t even fathom what would make a person shoot at a car that was in their driveway if they didn’t even know the people in the car.”

Mr. Monahan’s long driveway is off this largely dirt road.Credit...Benjamin Cleeton for The New York Times

 

[closetohumping 17442]

2 hours ago, 52-80 said:

 

 

 

if the gun-specific mortality rate shows a difference between states with restrictions, surely, surely, fewer means of weapons (=guns) in california means fewer homicides...

oh, wait, for 2 decades, both states on the opposite political and policy spectrum still have its folks killing people at the rate of 5-6/100k

You understand your graphic, that you're using to solidify your case, shows California as below the US average and Texas right at the US average?

[SydneyCarton 48107]

3 hours ago, lemonlime said:

Not sure if serious.  But yes.  California and NY have lower homicide rates than Texas.  And these charts go back to 2005.

 https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/sosmap/homicide_mortality/homicide.htm

 

3 hours ago, aggie08 said:

 

I mean, duh. States with less guns in circulation, a less pervasive gun culture, and more strict gun control regulations have less firearm-related deaths, and thus less homicides. Because of course they do. Pretty obvious stuff.

And all that despite the fact that Californians can drive a couple hours and get as many guns as they want, easier, in other states. 

[aggie08 21504]

1 hour ago, 52-80 said:

https://cde.ucr.cjis.gov/LATEST/webapp/#/pages/home

was california’s “less pervasive gun culture, and more strict gun control regulation” vs texas’ a mere 2 year phenomenon ?

 

is new yorks gun culture more or less prevalent than california? do they have fewer rednecks? why is their homicide  lower than *california*, too, not in 1 year, but for almost all years, (with all 3 states showing same long term shapes)

 

fyi, new york has 1 police officer to 300 residents. california has 400. 

I guess I'm just losing track of what exactly you're trying to argue here. According to the CDC, states where you'd expect stricter gun regulations--including CA and NY--have far fewer gun-related deaths than their counterparts (which is a win all in itself, is it not?). This passes the smell test: less guns in circulation, less gun deaths.

Your contention is that fewer firearms--and thus fewer firearm-related deaths--doesn't automatically result in fewer homicides, when you even said yourself that 72% of homicides are from firearms? I don't think the numbers bear out what I'm gathering that you're trying to prove.

Speculating, but I'm guessing that state homicide rates most directly correlate with median income and poverty rates, which helps explain most of the south and bright red states. But, when you add low income with ease and availability of firearms, you get Mississippi and Louisiana.

[Guadaloopy 10971]

46 minutes ago, aggie08 said:

This passes the smell test: less guns in circulation, less gun deaths.

[Brisketexan 105144]

I guess I'm just losing track of what exactly you're trying to argue here. According to the CDC, states where you'd expect stricter gun regulations--including CA and NY--have far fewer gun-related deaths than their counterparts (which is a win all in itself, is it not?). This passes the smell test: less guns in circulation, less gun deaths.
Your contention is that fewer firearms--and thus fewer firearm-related deaths--doesn't automatically result in fewer homicides, when you even said yourself that 72% of homicides are from firearms? I don't think the numbers bear out what I'm gathering that you're trying to prove.
Speculating, but I'm guessing that state homicide rates most directly correlate with median income and poverty rates, which helps explain most of the south and bright red states. But, when you add low income with ease and availability of firearms, you get Mississippi and Louisiana.

And the last part validates what I have been saying. People in deep, long term poverty place have a stronger tendency to place a lower value on human life (life sucks, what’s to value?). We have broad cultural issues that are causing us to place a lower value on human life and human existence - particularly OTHER humans.
That puts us in a bad place. Add easy availability of firearms to the mix. Then add EXALTATION of firearms and what they make you (a badass, a hero, a patriot, a tough motherfucker, an “alpha,” or what have you) to the mix. That puts us in a worse place.
Nihilism and contempt for others is bad. It makes people more likely to act on those beliefs. Firearms make it more likely for them to inflict real damage, and a lot of it, than using lesser tools.
This isn’t rocket science. We have contempt for the other. We have access to weapons that allow us to act on that contempt effectively. We glorify the use of those weapons. This results in both a body count of dead, and a breakdown in civility even where people don’t end up dead.
We’re fucked in the head. People who are fucked in the head generally shouldn’t have easy access to guns. They damned well shouldn’t worship them.

[closetohumping 17442]

Again, per capita 2021:

 

 

 

 

Texas is in the middle of the pack.  California and NY are towards the bottom. https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/sosmap/firearm_mortality/firearm.htm

[bolverk 29681]

5 minutes ago, closetohumping said:

Again, per capita 2021:

Texas is in the middle of the pack.  California and NY are towards the bottom. https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/sosmap/firearm_mortality/firearm.htm

Yes, but how many deaths per square mile?

[tx 3 putt 76960]

On 4/18/2023 at 12:54 AM, Dahobbs said:

die in prison you dumb fuck 

[Dahobbs 17534]

15 minutes ago, closetohumping said:

Again, per capita 2021:

 

 

 

 

Texas is in the middle of the pack.  California and NY are towards the bottom. https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/sosmap/firearm_mortality/firearm.htm

SEC! SEC! SEC!

Edit: Also, how the fuck is Florida so far down that list? Florida man is fucking tough to kill apparently. 

Edited April 19, 2023 by Dahobbs

[YGIFS 19450]

Florida man is usually whacked out on meth and thus very hard to get a bead on him, let alone put him down.  

of the 14 states above 20+/capita.  What factors do they have in common, almost all of them? 

Hmmmmmm, some are Southern.  Some are Western.  Some are almost all rural, while others are a typical blend of urban/rural.  Some are overwhelmingly white, while others are a typical American blend of diversity.  Hmmm.  I can't quite figure it out.  Almost all are poorer states.  That tracks.  Almost all have lax gun laws.  That tracks.  And almost all share a common socio-political lean.  

Obviously they need more guns to address their death rate issues.

 

[closetohumping 17442]

21 minutes ago, bolverk said:

Yes, but how many deaths per square mile?

I think I would still like the liberal state's chances there. 

[lemonlime 5503]

Again, per capita 2021:
 

 

 
 
Texas is in the middle of the pack.  California and NY are towards the bottom. https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/sosmap/firearm_mortality/firearm.htm

Yes. But what about when George HW Bush was president, smarty pants?

[closetohumping 17442]

20 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

SEC! SEC! SEC!

Edit: Also, how the fuck is Florida so far down that list? Florida man is fucking tough to kill apparently. 

Wasting ammo on gators. 

3 minutes ago, lemonlime said:

Yes. But what about when George HW Bush was president, smarty pants?

Was that the older one?

[lemonlime 5503]

4 minutes ago, closetohumping said:

 

Was that the older one?

Yes.  In numbers' cherrypicking data from CA and TX from a time period before TX even had concealed carry.

[CooterBrown 18013]

No, intent is an element. The state must prove that defendant intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly entered the property of another when not permitted. Matter of D.L., 541 S.W.3d 917, 920 (Tex. App. 2018); Texas Dep't of Pub. Safety v. Axt, 292 S.W.3d 736, 739 (Tex. App. 2009). You don't commit criminal trespass when you think you're somewhere you're invited to be. 

Looks like a loophole our elected officials will close.

[Samson's Wig 3192]

17 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

If you found that drivers were driving like bats out of hell, and blowing through lights all the time, because drivers approached driving with a psychotic attitude of "fuck everyone else, I'm the only human being who matters,"

If??????

[Js1 85341]

I’m just here for the laughs as y’all try to argue with a straight up moron who will never ever ever change his mind or see facts/reason 

[Samson's Wig 3192]

1 hour ago, closetohumping said:

Again, per capita 2021:

 

 

 

 

Texas is in the middle of the pack.  California and NY are towards the bottom. https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/sosmap/firearm_mortality/firearm.htm

I'd be interested to see that list compared to a list of states based on poverty levels.  I know Mississippi and New Mexico often duke it out for the poorest state, with Louisiana in the mix, and there's your top three on this list.  I don't have a conclusion to draw from it, if there is indeed a correlation, but it jumped out at me.

[closetohumping 17442]

18 minutes ago, Samson's Wig said:

I'd be interested to see that list compared to a list of states based on poverty levels.  I know Mississippi and New Mexico often duke it out for the poorest state, with Louisiana in the mix, and there's your top three on this list.  I don't have a conclusion to draw from it, if there is indeed a correlation, but it jumped out at me.

Yeah, probably some correlation.  The other states are more rural, heavy gun culture.  I read an article a while back that there was a high rate of suicide in the mountain west and plain states among men.  Too proud to ask for help and access to guns.  Not h9omicide related. 

[closetohumping 17442]

3 hours ago, Js1 said:

I’m just here for the laughs as y’all try to argue with a straight up moron who will never ever ever change his mind or see facts/reason 

Haven't paid attention.  Didn't know he was a rabid gun nut.

[fattyflattie 4639]

1 hour ago, closetohumping said:

Haven't paid attention.  Didn't know he was a rabid gun nut.

He’s not. Don’t even think he own firearms, per his statement upthread. 

[closetohumping 17442]

4 minutes ago, fattyflattie said:

He’s not. Don’t even think he own firearms, per his statement upthread. 

Got it.  Grudge against liberal states

[Deej 76796]

5 hours ago, Js1 said:

I’m just here for the laughs as y’all try to argue with a straight up moron who will never ever ever change his mind or see facts/reason 

New site motto?

[fattyflattie 4639]

13 minutes ago, closetohumping said:

Got it.  Grudge against liberal states

I think he just has a pedantic side (throwing stones in my glass house) and he’s probably curious at how the facts are presented in certain manners by certain posters.  Or maybe he hates liberal states (in a more conservative country). 

[bolverk 29681]

Victim’s Father Breaks Down as Bail Is Denied in Wrong-Driveway Shooting
Kaylin Gillis’s death “touches a chord across the country,” the Washington County district attorney said during a court hearing in the case.

FORT EDWARD, N.Y. — A man accused of shooting a young woman who had inadvertently driven up his driveway in a rural area of upstate New York was returned to jail without bail on Wednesday, a move hailed by the victim’s shattered family.

The man, Kevin Monahan, 65, is charged with second-degree murder and has pleaded not guilty. During a brief hearing in a Washington County courthouse, prosecutors laid out a vivid and frightening description of Mr. Monahan’s actions, which they said included using a shotgun to shoot at the car in which the victim, Kaylin Gillis, 20, was traveling while it attempted to drive away.

“They were at the defendant’s property for a very short period of time, when they were fired at,” said Christian P. Morris, the county’s first assistant district attorney, adding that Mr. Monahan could face additional charges, including attempted murder and assault of other individuals in the cars.

For the most part, Mr. Monahan sat quietly, shackled but dressed in a suit and tie, as relatives of Ms. Gillis sat stone-faced. He spoke briefly when asked by Judge Adam D. Michelini about past travel and whether he had family in the area.

The judge cited the seriousness of the charge and the use of a firearm in denying bail. And moments after his decision, the victim’s father, Andrew Gillis, spoke to reporters for the first time, breaking down as he tried to talk about his daughter’s bright future and the man accused of shooting her.

“I just hope to God he dies in jail,” he said, adding that it was “the best possible outcome” that Mr. Monahan did not make bail.

Ms. Gillis was shot on Saturday night as she and a group of her friends were traveling in a caravan of two cars and a motorcycle that mistakenly drove up Mr. Monahan’s driveway in Hebron, N.Y., a small, bucolic town near the Vermont border, while looking for a friend’s house.

Authorities say that the drivers of the three vehicles had realized their mistake and were turning around when Mr. Monahan fired two shots, at least one of which struck Ms. Gillis, who was sitting in the passenger seat of the last car to turn around.

Spoiler

Mr. Monahan’s lawyer, Kurt Mausert, has disputed official accounts of a reckless shooting, noting his client has a nearly spotless record — except for a 43-year-old misdemeanor for drinking and driving — and accusing the county sheriff of prejudicing the case.

“It is not the simple scenario of these people took a wrong turn and within 20 seconds of them taking the wrong turn, this guy’s on his deck blasting away,” Mr. Mausert said on Tuesday. “That’s not what happened.”

In a telephone interview after the hearing, Mr. Mausert said he would appeal Wednesday’s ruling that keeps his client in jail for the foreseeable future. “It’s simply not necessary,” he said.

Ms. Gillis’s death is just one of a series of recent shootings involving gun attacks on individuals who were simply lost: Last week, a Black teenager, Ralph Yarl, was shot by an 84-year-old white man in Kansas City after mistakenly going to the wrong house while trying to pick up his brothers from a friend’s home. He was shot in the head but survived.

Then, on Tuesday, two teenage cheerleaders in Elgin, Tex., were shot just after midnight by an assailant after apparently trying to get into the wrong car in a supermarket parking lot.

On Wednesday, the Washington County district attorney, J. Anthony Jordan, said he understood why the case “touches a chord across the country.”

“But for me as a prosecutor,” he said, “we have a lot of work to do to insure justice for Kaylin.”

Mr. Morris, Mr. Jordan’s first assistant, said in court that Mr. Monahan could also face a weapons charge, though it was unclear what that would involve; under New York State law, no license is required for a regular shotgun, according to the State Police.

Ms. Gillis came from a family with a law enforcement connection: Her father is a correction officer at Washington County Correctional Facility. Since his arrest, Mr. Monahan has been held in neighboring Warren County and will continue to be held there.

The shooting in New York was not unique, even in Washington County, a patch of farm-friendly territory northeast of Albany: In 2016, another local resident, Brian Tschorn, shot at a driver who had driven down his long, rural driveway while looking for a relative’s home.

In that case, the driver was unharmed, but Mr. Tschorn served nearly two years in state prison. The charge, and potential sentence, facing Mr. Monahan are far more serious, with a minimum of 15 years in prison.

The circumstances of Ms. Gillis’s shooting were chilling: She and her boyfriend and several friends were driving to another friend’s home on Saturday night, when they pulled onto a largely dirt road in Hebron where Mr. Monahan lives with his wife in a ridge-top house.

The three vehicles turned into Mr. Monahan’s long, curved driveway, which is flanked by a tree with two worn “private property” signs, warning off trespassers, and a small “private drive” sign. The two cars and motorcycle ascended the drive before realizing their error, authorities said, and turning around to leave.

Then there were shots.

Neighbors had said that Mr. Monahan, a self-employed builder and longtime resident whose home sits on about 40 mostly wooded acres, had a reputation as a sometimes surly character who loved dirt bikes and largely kept to himself.

Adam Matthews, who lives next to Mr. Monahan and has known him for decades, said his neighbor could be aggressive and intimidating. “He was a difficult guy,” Mr. Matthews recalled, adding he was “known to have altercations with people.”

He added that Mr. Monahan was “always concerned with trespassing,” and that the wide opening of his driveway resembled a road to some drivers. He added that at one point Mr. Monahan had draped a chain across the mouth of his driveway. But that chain was not there on Saturday night.

The shooting had scared Mr. Matthews, as it did others in the town; he said he wondered what might have happened had one of his friends gone up the driveway.

“We had people over for Easter brunch, and there was a girl that hadn’t been to the house in quite some time, a young girl just driving,” he said. “What if she’d gone up his driveway instead of mine?”

The shooting had also struck fear in others. On Wednesday, Dallas Salls, a friend of the victim, said she was “just anxious everywhere I drive now,” saying she had an anxiety attack driving to her sister’s after Ms. Gillis’s death.

“I just started bawling my eyes out,” she said. “I just thought somebody was just going to come out and shoot me. Like I just can’t even drive anywhere at night anymore.”

The night of the shooting, the car containing Ms. Gillis had to drive about five miles searching for cell service before her friends were able to find a signal on a road adjacent to a local cemetery. But it was too late.

In his remarks, Mr. Gillis — who cried on several occasions, while trying to compose himself — cursed the lack of cellular coverage along the rural back roads, wondering if that lost time had meant that his daughter lost her life. But he also seemed bewildered how a planned night out at a friend’s house could instead end in a murder.

“I would never have dreamed in a million years,” he said, “that this would happen.”

 

[52-80 19159]

18 hours ago, closetohumping said:

You understand your graphic, that you're using to solidify your case, shows California as below the US average and Texas right at the US average?

Below the average….when?

You understand you’re trying to pointing out year to year variance across a 35 year long dataset. Was California more pro-gun than Texas in most of the 2000s, and then decided to culturally flip-flop in 2015?

[52-80 19159]

18 hours ago, aggie08 said:

Speculating, but I'm guessing that state homicide rates most directly correlate with median income and poverty rates, which helps explain most of the south and bright red states. But, when you add low income with ease and availability of firearms, you get Mississippi and Louisiana.

Homicide does indeed correlate strongly  with income, education attainment, and so on

Then why are ya’ll framing it as a gun availability, gun culture, and gun cult as the problem, exemplified by rednecks?

Why not just a dumb people problem, who kill the most often, by any means available?

Rural white men do indeed own the highest number of guns.  Do they kill the most often? Want to compare correlation of homicide rate with income, geographic density, gun ownership, race, and see how they rank?

11 hours ago, fattyflattie said:

I think he just has a pedantic side (throwing stones in my glass house) and he’s probably curious at how the facts are presented in certain manners by certain posters.  Or maybe he hates liberal states (in a more conservative country). 

If empirical data is pedantic, ill take that over narratives informed by gut-feeling and caricatures…like the drive-by clown mentioning “data” but too timid to engage with it. hey @Js1how you doing sport

[52-80 19159]

15 hours ago, closetohumping said:

Yeah, probably some correlation.  The other states are more rural, heavy gun culture.  I read an article a while back that there was a high rate of suicide in the mountain west and plain states among men.  Too proud to ask for help and access to guns.  Not h9omicide related. 

Suicide is a big component in firearm-related death. And god knows without a gun, it’s especially difficult to kill oneself…. 

[closetohumping 17442]

1 hour ago, 52-80 said:

Homicide does indeed correlate strongly  with income, education attainment, and so on

Then why are ya’ll framing it as a gun availability, gun culture, and gun cult as the problem, exemplified by rednecks?

Why not just a dumb people problem, who kill the most often, by any means available?

Rural white men do indeed own the highest number of guns.  Do they kill the most often? Want to compare correlation of homicide rate with income, geographic density, gun ownership, race, and see how they rank?

If empirical data is pedantic, ill take that over narratives informed by gut-feeling and caricatures…like the drive-by clown mentioning “data” but too timid to engage with it. hey @Js1how you doing sport

Did you actually look at my data?  

2 hours ago, 52-80 said:

Below the average….when?

You understand you’re trying to pointing out year to year variance across a 35 year long dataset. Was California more pro-gun than Texas in most of the 2000s, and then decided to culturally flip-flop in 2015?

Uhm since 2012?  Per your data. Are you just going to willfully ignore the data that I’ve posted?

[WhatTheBuck 28783]

13 hours ago, bolverk said:

Victim’s Father Breaks Down as Bail Is Denied in Wrong-Driveway Shooting
Kaylin Gillis’s death “touches a chord across the country,” the Washington County district attorney said during a court hearing in the case.

FORT EDWARD, N.Y. — A man accused of shooting a young woman who had inadvertently driven up his driveway in a rural area of upstate New York was returned to jail without bail on Wednesday, a move hailed by the victim’s shattered family.

The man, Kevin Monahan, 65, is charged with second-degree murder and has pleaded not guilty. During a brief hearing in a Washington County courthouse, prosecutors laid out a vivid and frightening description of Mr. Monahan’s actions, which they said included using a shotgun to shoot at the car in which the victim, Kaylin Gillis, 20, was traveling while it attempted to drive away.

“They were at the defendant’s property for a very short period of time, when they were fired at,” said Christian P. Morris, the county’s first assistant district attorney, adding that Mr. Monahan could face additional charges, including attempted murder and assault of other individuals in the cars.

For the most part, Mr. Monahan sat quietly, shackled but dressed in a suit and tie, as relatives of Ms. Gillis sat stone-faced. He spoke briefly when asked by Judge Adam D. Michelini about past travel and whether he had family in the area.

The judge cited the seriousness of the charge and the use of a firearm in denying bail. And moments after his decision, the victim’s father, Andrew Gillis, spoke to reporters for the first time, breaking down as he tried to talk about his daughter’s bright future and the man accused of shooting her.

“I just hope to God he dies in jail,” he said, adding that it was “the best possible outcome” that Mr. Monahan did not make bail.

Ms. Gillis was shot on Saturday night as she and a group of her friends were traveling in a caravan of two cars and a motorcycle that mistakenly drove up Mr. Monahan’s driveway in Hebron, N.Y., a small, bucolic town near the Vermont border, while looking for a friend’s house.

Authorities say that the drivers of the three vehicles had realized their mistake and were turning around when Mr. Monahan fired two shots, at least one of which struck Ms. Gillis, who was sitting in the passenger seat of the last car to turn around.

  Reveal hidden contents

Mr. Monahan’s lawyer, Kurt Mausert, has disputed official accounts of a reckless shooting, noting his client has a nearly spotless record — except for a 43-year-old misdemeanor for drinking and driving — and accusing the county sheriff of prejudicing the case.

“It is not the simple scenario of these people took a wrong turn and within 20 seconds of them taking the wrong turn, this guy’s on his deck blasting away,” Mr. Mausert said on Tuesday. “That’s not what happened.”

In a telephone interview after the hearing, Mr. Mausert said he would appeal Wednesday’s ruling that keeps his client in jail for the foreseeable future. “It’s simply not necessary,” he said.

Ms. Gillis’s death is just one of a series of recent shootings involving gun attacks on individuals who were simply lost: Last week, a Black teenager, Ralph Yarl, was shot by an 84-year-old white man in Kansas City after mistakenly going to the wrong house while trying to pick up his brothers from a friend’s home. He was shot in the head but survived.

Then, on Tuesday, two teenage cheerleaders in Elgin, Tex., were shot just after midnight by an assailant after apparently trying to get into the wrong car in a supermarket parking lot.

On Wednesday, the Washington County district attorney, J. Anthony Jordan, said he understood why the case “touches a chord across the country.”

“But for me as a prosecutor,” he said, “we have a lot of work to do to insure justice for Kaylin.”

Mr. Morris, Mr. Jordan’s first assistant, said in court that Mr. Monahan could also face a weapons charge, though it was unclear what that would involve; under New York State law, no license is required for a regular shotgun, according to the State Police.

Ms. Gillis came from a family with a law enforcement connection: Her father is a correction officer at Washington County Correctional Facility. Since his arrest, Mr. Monahan has been held in neighboring Warren County and will continue to be held there.

The shooting in New York was not unique, even in Washington County, a patch of farm-friendly territory northeast of Albany: In 2016, another local resident, Brian Tschorn, shot at a driver who had driven down his long, rural driveway while looking for a relative’s home.

In that case, the driver was unharmed, but Mr. Tschorn served nearly two years in state prison. The charge, and potential sentence, facing Mr. Monahan are far more serious, with a minimum of 15 years in prison.

The circumstances of Ms. Gillis’s shooting were chilling: She and her boyfriend and several friends were driving to another friend’s home on Saturday night, when they pulled onto a largely dirt road in Hebron where Mr. Monahan lives with his wife in a ridge-top house.

The three vehicles turned into Mr. Monahan’s long, curved driveway, which is flanked by a tree with two worn “private property” signs, warning off trespassers, and a small “private drive” sign. The two cars and motorcycle ascended the drive before realizing their error, authorities said, and turning around to leave.

Then there were shots.

Neighbors had said that Mr. Monahan, a self-employed builder and longtime resident whose home sits on about 40 mostly wooded acres, had a reputation as a sometimes surly character who loved dirt bikes and largely kept to himself.

Adam Matthews, who lives next to Mr. Monahan and has known him for decades, said his neighbor could be aggressive and intimidating. “He was a difficult guy,” Mr. Matthews recalled, adding he was “known to have altercations with people.”

He added that Mr. Monahan was “always concerned with trespassing,” and that the wide opening of his driveway resembled a road to some drivers. He added that at one point Mr. Monahan had draped a chain across the mouth of his driveway. But that chain was not there on Saturday night.

The shooting had scared Mr. Matthews, as it did others in the town; he said he wondered what might have happened had one of his friends gone up the driveway.

“We had people over for Easter brunch, and there was a girl that hadn’t been to the house in quite some time, a young girl just driving,” he said. “What if she’d gone up his driveway instead of mine?”

The shooting had also struck fear in others. On Wednesday, Dallas Salls, a friend of the victim, said she was “just anxious everywhere I drive now,” saying she had an anxiety attack driving to her sister’s after Ms. Gillis’s death.

“I just started bawling my eyes out,” she said. “I just thought somebody was just going to come out and shoot me. Like I just can’t even drive anywhere at night anymore.”

The night of the shooting, the car containing Ms. Gillis had to drive about five miles searching for cell service before her friends were able to find a signal on a road adjacent to a local cemetery. But it was too late.

In his remarks, Mr. Gillis — who cried on several occasions, while trying to compose himself — cursed the lack of cellular coverage along the rural back roads, wondering if that lost time had meant that his daughter lost her life. But he also seemed bewildered how a planned night out at a friend’s house could instead end in a murder.

“I would never have dreamed in a million years,” he said, “that this would happen.”

 

The guy who shot the white lady didn’t make bail. The guy who shot the black kid did.

[SydneyCarton 48107]

3 hours ago, 52-80 said:

Homicide does indeed correlate strongly  with income, education attainment, and so on

Then why are ya’ll framing it as a gun availability, gun culture, and gun cult as the problem, exemplified by rednecks?

Why not just a dumb people problem, who kill the most often, by any means available?

Rural white men do indeed own the highest number of guns.  Do they kill the most often? Want to compare correlation of homicide rate with income, geographic density, gun ownership, race, and see how they rank?

If empirical data is pedantic, ill take that over narratives informed by gut-feeling and caricatures…like the drive-by clown mentioning “data” but too timid to engage with it. hey @Js1how you doing sport

1.) Because at the end of the day, education level or not, income level or not, at the end of the day it is the guns that allow for the ease and multiplied victim count during these events. There's a reason that one of the 911 flights where the guy had box cutters was swarmed by passengers. If they had guns, probably not. You don't see a man successfully murder 10 kids in a school with a knife. You can talk about the underlying issues all you want, but at the end of the day, it's the actual tool of a gun that makes the large body counts happen. 

2.) My son is 5. His intellect is not fully developed, there are things he doesn't understand. As a result, there's things we don't let him handle at home, like a steak knife. Or a fucking pistol. Because he's not smart enough to understand the implications or mechanisms involved with a pistol. Particularly when I don't trust his fine motor control with a steak knife. If you're saying it's an intellect problem, then maybe we shouldn't let dumb people have guns. Well ok, then we should certainly establish laws that prevent such the free flowing of weapons and allow them to get into the hands of the dumb. Love to see that go before the Supreme Court, really like those odds. 

3.) If you want to tackle this problem as an issure of class/resources/money, well, ok I guess. Sounds like you're advocating for high level socialism, or something like Universal Basic Income so criminals don't have to steal. Oddly, I don't see that on any ticket of one political party. You see it on some extremely progressive ones, however. Weirdly, one specific party's tickets also commonly feature cutting public education, taxing the poor over the rich, etc. It's almost like they've got zero interest in solving a gun violence problem from any angle.

Edited April 20, 2023 by SydneyCarton

[SydneyCarton 48107]

22 minutes ago, WhatTheBuck said:

The guy who shot the white lady didn’t make bail. The guy who shot the black kid did.

One was NY, which is typically considered a Blue State. The other is Missouri, typically seen as a Red state. Which is odd, I've been told that it's blue areas that have problems with judges lenient judges setting low bails and letting violent criminals on the street. So weird. 

[52-80 19159]

6 hours ago, SydneyCarton said:

1.) Because at the end of the day, education level or not, income level or not, at the end of the day it is the guns that allow for the ease and multiplied victim count during these events. There's a reason that one of the 911 flights where the guy had box cutters was swarmed by passengers. If they had guns, probably not. You don't see a man successfully murder 10 kids in a school with a knife. You can talk about the underlying issues all you want, but at the end of the day, it's the actual tool of a gun that makes the large body counts happen. 

2.) My son is 5. His intellect is not fully developed, there are things he doesn't understand. As a result, there's things we don't let him handle at home, like a steak knife. Or a fucking pistol. Because he's not smart enough to understand the implications or mechanisms involved with a pistol. Particularly when I don't trust his fine motor control with a steak knife. If you're saying it's an intellect problem, then maybe we shouldn't let dumb people have guns. Well ok, then we should certainly establish laws that prevent such the free flowing of weapons and allow them to get into the hands of the dumb. Love to see that go before the Supreme Court, really like those odds. 

3.) If you want to tackle this problem as an issure of class/resources/money, well, ok I guess. Sounds like you're advocating for high level socialism, or something like Universal Basic Income so criminals don't have to steal. Oddly, I don't see that on any ticket of one political party. You see it on some extremely progressive ones, however. Weirdly, one specific party's tickets also commonly feature cutting public education, taxing the poor over the rich, etc. It's almost like they've got zero interest in solving a gun violence problem from any angle.

1. Great example of the False Spotlight. 10 kids getting shot at school makes the biggest headlines, but represents the smallest share of homicides. Most are single victims - like this exact thread - as result of urban gang shooting; targeted killing/premeditation; conflicts/crime if passion. I dont think Driveway Woman was shot by an AR with an extended mag. 
 

2. There is a way to reduce the “free flowing” weapons, just wait for the next point. It involves the 2nd most primary tool of governments: taxation. 
 

3. The established parties and their cheerleaders push idiotic extremist ideas, hence it’s perpetually polarizing. Doing nothing is obviously unpopular. Completely banning guns is obviously unpopular, besides being hopelessly unrealistic. The “compromise” of focusing just on “assault rifles”, high capacity firearms, or ferris-wheeling over legal concealed/open-carry completely miss the mark — as again, they dont contribute to the majority of homicides. 
 

Given that guns are:

-a luxury (ie non-essential) for most

-(believed to be) protection for some

-used in crime most often by the poor

you can erode its supply from those most likely to use it illegally:

(a) tax the hell out of gun sales

(b) implement voluntary buyback

(c) use surplus tax on buyback and increased policing

fewer firearms goes into sketchy owners, where, if not used, it might be sold off to, or stolen by, even sketchier people. the NRA members who fetishize their hand-polished double-barrel rifles and have a chest full of steel, theyre not demonized and nobodys “coming for their guns”

[DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt 12301]

Put him on ignore months ago but see he’s on a posting spree…I’m assuming he’s doing his old “I mean, is it really a problem?” schtick?

[52-80 19159]

1 hour ago, DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt said:

Put him on ignore months ago but see he’s on a posting spree…I’m assuming he’s doing his old “I mean, is it really a problem?” schtick?

Im so sorry this is happening to you 🙏

[956 Worldwide 34715]

On 4/19/2023 at 12:36 AM, Brisketexan said:

Strawman?  No.  I don't think I did.

 

No guarantees, of course.....but if you and I had to make a wager on whether those two fellas (who just shot unarmed people in the past few days) watched more than 4 hours of Fox News per week...which side of the wager would you want?

And AGAIN, it's about more than just the final body count.  It's about the complete fucking selfish depravity of a movement that is one of the dominant ones in our society.   The utter lack of human empathy or connection -- it's all about ME, and protecting MY SACRED CASTLE, instead of having a scintilla of humanity and perspective and empathy for the fact that on the other side of the door is a human being.  It doesn't always result in death.  Maybe it results in calling the cops on a kid who just knocked on the wrong door.  Maybe it results in a huge neighborhood squabble because you accuse a kid of wrongdoing just because he knocked on your door.

Fucking human decency, man.  We should emphasize that 10% as much as we emphasize the cult of the gun, and we'd be a lot better off.

We have a whole-ass network with a business model dedicated to blasting fear pron about black people, Mexicans, Muslims, and antifa straight into MeeMaw and PeePaws eyeballs.  All over this country there are millions terrified old people going to sleep with their handguns tucked into their nightstand, soothed to sleep by the dulcet tones of Tucker Carlson and the flicker of a chyron that alternates between the freshest news about Hunter Biden’s dong and the latest update on the illegal fentanyl MS-13 invasion. 
 

And yes, I will gladly admit that these terrified old people commit far fewer fun crimes than violent armed criminals. I just have this seed of an idea that maybe it shouldn’t be so easy for any of them to have firearms? 

[SydneyCarton 48107]

16 hours ago, 52-80 said:

1. Great example of the False Spotlight. 10 kids getting shot at school makes the biggest headlines, but represents the smallest share of homicides. Most are single victims - like this exact thread - as result of urban gang shooting; targeted killing/premeditation; conflicts/crime if passion. I dont think Driveway Woman was shot by an AR with an extended mag. 
 

2. There is a way to reduce the “free flowing” weapons, just wait for the next point. It involves the 2nd most primary tool of governments: taxation. 
 

3. The established parties and their cheerleaders push idiotic extremist ideas, hence it’s perpetually polarizing. Doing nothing is obviously unpopular. Completely banning guns is obviously unpopular, besides being hopelessly unrealistic. The “compromise” of focusing just on “assault rifles”, high capacity firearms, or ferris-wheeling over legal concealed/open-carry completely miss the mark — as again, they dont contribute to the majority of homicides. 
 

Given that guns are:

-a luxury (ie non-essential) for most

-(believed to be) protection for some

-used in crime most often by the poor

you can erode its supply from those most likely to use it illegally:

(a) tax the hell out of gun sales

(b) implement voluntary buyback

(c) use surplus tax on buyback and increased policing

fewer firearms goes into sketchy owners, where, if not used, it might be sold off to, or stolen by, even sketchier people. the NRA members who fetishize their hand-polished double-barrel rifles and have a chest full of steel, theyre not demonized and nobodys “coming for their guns”

1.) You speak to me about a "false spotlight" but you're the one who injected the concept of an AR into this conversation. I just said "Guns." Newsflash, a guy with a pistol can still kill a fuck ton more people than a guy with a knife. I guess you are attempting to move the conversation from "firearms versus knives" to "AR versus pistols" because somehow you find that comparison more favorable? But we know you have a hard-on for blaming "gangs" and "urban youth." Guess what, I don't think any of them should be able to get guns. You can take your false equivalences and fuck right off with that shit.

 

2.) Your plan sounds great. Thanks for agreeing with me. Again, this feels like a false equivalency because you say both parties push extremes, but I know of only one party that says they'll do zero negotiation on anything in regards to gun regulation. I know another party that if that proposal was agreed upon would vote for everything you just mentioned in a fucking nano-second. Myself included. I'd fucking LOVE to do what you proposed. It isn't perfect, but anything is better than what we have and that's a start. 

[wildcat09 29354]

It's always so weird to see a dude who lives in Oslo behave like a backwoods east-Texas redneck online.

[52-80 19159]

4 hours ago, SydneyCarton said:

1.) You speak to me about a "false spotlight" but you're the one who injected the concept of an AR into this conversation. I just said "Guns." Newsflash, a guy with a pistol can still kill a fuck ton more people than a guy with a knife. I guess you are attempting to move the conversation from "firearms versus knives" to "AR versus pistols" because somehow you find that comparison more favorable? But we know you have a hard-on for blaming "gangs" and "urban youth." Guess what, I don't think any of them should be able to get guns. You can take your false equivalences and fuck right off with that shit.

 

2.) Your plan sounds great. Thanks for agreeing with me. Again, this feels like a false equivalency because you say both parties push extremes, but I know of only one party that says they'll do zero negotiation on anything in regards to gun regulation. I know another party that if that proposal was agreed upon would vote for everything you just mentioned in a fucking nano-second. Myself included. I'd fucking LOVE to do what you proposed. It isn't perfect, but anything is better than what we have and that's a start. 

1. Buddy, stay on the objectives points and dont project whatever affinity you imagine i might have to guns. I dont have a gun (anymore), i dont want a gun, but i can recognize how the 100,000+ gun and homicide datapoints debunks popular narratives around them.  

if you tell me houston was freezing cold last summer and i tell you its average recorded temp was in the 90s, is that indicative of my “hard on” for the cold or the heat?  

the funny thing about the “urban youth” which you imply as red herring is….its literally fucking recorded as demographics factors (age; geography under “urban” vs “rural”) in homicides by federal authorities  

please, please, please, count the homicides in the database ascribed to each demographic class, normalize to population, and tell me which ranks highest. 

you care about homicides right? tell me how many old rednecks like Driveway Man is responsible for.  guns are most distributed in rural areas (Pew survey).  are the gun-homicides higher there?

who brought up hypothetical 10-kids? you did.  tons of media record multi-victim incidents.  go ahead and compare that incidence rate to single-victims, or simply look at the nature of the shootings.  they record relationship to victim, too  

if you want to reduce gun-homicides and homicides in general, the popular discussions and legislative proposals must reflect the empirical reality.  but people arent ready to do that. 
 

i am reflecting what the popular talking points are, and how they’re misguided. 

2.  did i myself invent the Armalite and high capacity magazine angle? or is that not…uh…The Assault Weapons Ban of 2022/2023 the current administration tried to get into law? (the assault weapons that, i remind you, is a raindrop in the ocean of firearm fatalities.)

so uhhhh….why doesnt this party you know propose instead something similar to the tax scheme, that has financial incentive to draw guns away from the street?  imagine that: people responding to incentives better than they do to prohibition.

but naw….media, politicians, and public will keep bickering about dangerous ARs and scary ghost guns and open-carry cosplayers, none of which make a dent in the national bodycount, while killers keep killing.   

[YGIFS 19450]

Have we thought about hardening driveways or eliminating them altogether?  That's the real chokepoint in our defense platform.

Here's a fun fact, and wish it away all you want.

Before the end of the 2023-24 school year, somebody isn't going to bother engaging a school campus.  They're going to use an assault rifle to shoot up groups of kids at a bus stop instead.  It's coming.  So get your excuses ready.  

[SydneyCarton 48107]

1 hour ago, 52-80 said:

1. Buddy, stay on the objectives points and dont project whatever affinity you imagine i might have to guns. I dont have a gun (anymore), i dont want a gun, but i can recognize how the 100,000+ gun and homicide datapoints debunks popular narratives around them.  

if you tell me houston was freezing cold last summer and i tell you its average recorded temp was in the 90s, is that indicative of my “hard on” for the cold or the heat?  

the funny thing about the “urban youth” which you imply as red herring is….its literally fucking recorded as demographics factors (age; geography under “urban” vs “rural”) in homicides by federal authorities  

please, please, please, count the homicides in the database ascribed to each demographic class, normalize to population, and tell me which ranks highest. 

you care about homicides right? tell me how many old rednecks like Driveway Man is responsible for.  guns are most distributed in rural areas (Pew survey).  are the gun-homicides higher there?

who brought up hypothetical 10-kids? you did.  tons of media record multi-victim incidents.  go ahead and compare that incidence rate to single-victims, or simply look at the nature of the shootings.  they record relationship to victim, too  

if you want to reduce gun-homicides and homicides in general, the popular discussions and legislative proposals must reflect the empirical reality.  but people arent ready to do that. 
 

i am reflecting what the popular talking points are, and how they’re misguided. 

2.  did i myself invent the Armalite and high capacity magazine angle? or is that not…uh…The Assault Weapons Ban of 2022/2023 the current administration tried to get into law? (the assault weapons that, i remind you, is a raindrop in the ocean of firearm fatalities.)

so uhhhh….why doesnt this party you know propose instead something similar to the tax scheme, that has financial incentive to draw guns away from the street?  imagine that: people responding to incentives better than they do to prohibition.

but naw….media, politicians, and public will keep bickering about dangerous ARs and scary ghost guns and open-carry cosplayers, none of which make a dent in the national bodycount, while killers keep killing.   

That is a lot of words to address literally nothing either of my posts, including: why you brought up ARs in the first place when I was discussing knives versus guns, and then your failure again when I pointed that out and that you were attempting to change the subject. Then you drone on about demographics and facts while ignoring the simple fact that guns allow more people to die than knives, after trying to move the goal posts once already. Everything else you're talking about is bullshit.

I see you've graduated from the school of Both Sides. The fact of the matter is the democrats have put forth lots of legislation for guns that went nowhere because they haven't controlled both chambers. You can talk about the gnitty gritty all you want, but only one party has said they're not budging on ANY gun control legislation, and we both know that will include anything that makes gun ownership more expensive. So you can take your fantasy jerk-off land strawman of how THIS kind of legislation would have wide spread support of right-wing gun owners and 2nd amendment absolutists, as well as the fucking lobbying firms, if ONLY SOMEONE WOULD PROPOSE IT and get the fuck out of here with that clown car of joke.

[conVINCEd 21469]

Chris Rock got this right many years ago.  You can have all the guns you want, but  bullets cost $5k.

 

[52-80 19159]

18 minutes ago, SydneyCarton said:

Everything else you're talking about is bullshit.
…

I see you’ve graduated from the school of Both Sides

…
The fact of the matter is the democrats have put forth lots of legislation for guns that went nowhere because they haven't controlled both chambers

…only one party has said they're not budging on ANY gun control legislation

The funniest thing about your tirade is that less than 1 year ago, there was enough agreement on BotH SIdEs to pass something that became law as, literally, the BIPARTISAN safer communities act, involving mental health and expanded firearms checks and purchasing restrictions.  

THEY never agree to ANYTHING! They NEVER BUDGE! Why dont THEY propose blah blah blah. They just did, didnt they?

2nd amendment absolutists maintain their right to purchase and own guns. Right-wing gun owners see the value of their guns go up. Now how about you stop looking at THEY and ask why others  dont propose something like that. Gee, one wonders if the right-wingers, who commit fewer of the shootings, prefer to support outright prohibitions instead.  

Maybe if you complain about them more they will bend. 

[YGIFS 19450]

6 minutes ago, 52-80 said:

The funniest thing about your tirade is that less than 1 year ago, there was enough agreement on BotH SIdEs to pass something that became law as, literally, the BIPARTISAN safer communities act, involving mental health and expanded firearms checks and purchasing restrictions.  

THEY never agree to ANYTHING! They NEVER BUDGE! Why dont THEY propose blah blah blah. They just did, didnt they?

2nd amendment absolutists maintain their right to purchase and own guns. Right-wing gun owners see the value of their guns go up. Now how about you stop looking at THEY and ask why others  dont propose something like that. Gee, one wonders if the right-wingers, who commit fewer of the shootings, prefer to support outright prohibitions instead.  

Maybe if you complain about them more they will bend. 

I'm sure the children were awfully concerned with the politics of the man behind the trigger.  But this does raise an interesting and fair point on a huge chunk of death-by-gun numbers.  Suicide.  Which we all know is an almost plurality there.  Serious question-has anyone ever seen a breakout of the person committing suicide, what % used their gun or the gun of somebody else?  And then, what is the median timeframe between purchase of that weapon and the pulling of the trigger?  I've long been curious.  I don't really think, but maybe a couple hundred go out and buy a gun and then pull the trigger that same week unlike mass shootings.  But as most of us know intuitively, I worry that we lose 10-20k/year to gun suicide because the person just had the gun around.  They get in a bad spot.  Get drunk or fucked up on drugs and just have this quick and painless way to exit.  I really don't think we'd have that many deaths by gun but for it's already in the house, having long been legally purchased, and it's so damn convenient and painless.  We just see the net number each year, but has any institute/group bothered to kinda break it out micro?  

[closetohumping 17442]