EMF from Transmission Power Lines

[Fud 9580]

We're close to buying a house with large transmission power lines located high up behind it with a tower about 22 meters away from the closest point in the backyard, and I'm trying to decipher whether or not there are any negative health effects from their EMF radiation. I went out and measured yesterday evening. At about 6:45 pm, it was around 2.3-2.75 uT (or 23-28 mG) under the line outside of the fence, ranging from 1.45-2.6 at different times in the middle of the yard, and then around 0.5 near the back door

Stuff on the internet is all over the place; there are articles citing old studies claiming that they can cause leukemia in children, but many on various boards dismiss these old studies as flawed and suspect and claim that there's no data or science that show negative health effects. There's surprising little consensus on this. 

We have two young children, so I'm being more cautious on this than I probably would be otherwise

I'm aware that at the very least it's an eyesore that lowers the resale value, but I think that's already priced in

Here's an example of someone dismissing the concerns from reddit

Spoiler

Without getting bogged down in a never ending debate that is about as sciencey as arguing with creationists and flat earthers the answer is simple: there is no evidence that transmission lines emf cause cancer. Period.

Ok now the fun stuff.

When the cancer cluster thing came out within a month animal researchers started blasting monkeys and rats with 60hz emf. They were not able to give them cancer by this method. So if it did give humans cancer it would have to be only us. Which is very very odd especially since the original type of cancer it was supposed to give people was childhood leukemia.

Moving forward. Physics peeps got involved and reminded everyone that due to the working function from quantum mechanics they really could not imagine a way that it was possible. How does radiation give you cancer? Glad you asked. Your body gets cancer a great deal. It happens. No bigy. You know why? Because you have a specific gene that looks to see if the cell is turning cancerous and tells the cell to die if that is the case. What happens with cancer from radiation is this gene itself gets corrupted and doesn't help you out when a regular cell goes cancerous. Now how does this gene corruption process happen? High energy wave particles thingies crash into your DNA molecules and causes electronics to raise to a higher energy state. Which makes them from chemical bonds that they should not and break ones that should be intact. The mechanism behind this is the working function. The working function is the basics of quantum mechanics and basically states "for any given material it will get energized only if it gets hit with photons of a given intensity or higher otherwise the energy becomes heat". What really bothered the physics people is that the radiation given off powerlines has a pretty low frequency so all it should due to DNA is make it slightly slightly so slightly we have no help of measuring it warmer.

Then other stuff started happening. The whole idea of "near" powerlines became called into question. The original study that found the link not only did not define what near meant it also didn't take any actual emf readings. What does near mean? The possibility of defining it however you want made it possible for them to build the Frankenstein dataset desired.

Finally the social scientists got involved and they pointed out yet another glaring problem. Turns out poor people already have a risk factor for this type of cancer and that poor people tended to live in more industrial areas. To use a crude analogy imagine you were trying to measure the force a compass needle has while it is in a paint shaker. The people doing this study were looking for a very small link when there was a massive unrelated link. This is why later studies usually threw in scientific buzz words like "we held for poverty" factors. Which returning to our analogy is like a man claiming he measured the tiny needle wiggle by simply subtracting the paint can shacker. Yeah science doesn't work that way. You don't get to discard data points you don't like. You do controlled studies.

Then finally electrical engineers got involved and they pointed out a few things. A. People in the power and radio industry have been blasted by this stuff at much higher levels for life and they didn't show elevated cancer risk. B. The static magnetic field of the earth is orders of magnitude higher than what you get from by being near a powerline C.

Finally the US surgeon general became involved. After reviewing all the claims all the experiments all the tests they said that they could find no link and no purposes mechanism for action.

Lastly the lawyers got involved. Lots of people in the power industry. Lots of people someone is bound to get cancer. Many lawsuits were waged and no lawyer was able to convince a jury that there was any merit to this

So there is your answer. If transmission lines caused cancer it would mean most of physics and biology and stats were wrong also possibly the entire scientific method and that no one could convince 12 people to stick it to a large corporation despite being right.

 

[pantone159 721]

Well it is called the 'work function' not the 'working function', and it is not the fundamental basis of quantum mechanics, though it did feature prominently in Einstein's famous paper back in 1905, so I call this debunking as debunked.

But it is true that 60 hz radiation cannot destroy biological molecules the same way as e.g. xrays or gamma rays. In the case of xrays ('ionizing radiation') the electromagnetic chunks (photons/quanta) have a large amount of energy, enough so if they interact with a biological molecule, they can blast it apart, which causes a variety of bad things. But the quanta from 60 hz radiation will have an extremely low amount of energy, and one photon by itself is not going to do anything to a specific biomolecule.

 

[Doc Daneeka 6769]

I certainly don’t have an answer that’s definitely going to resolve the issue. To me, the claim has always seemed about as defensible as Andrew Wakefield’s. People are going to believe what they want, though. 

All other things being equal, I don’t care now and wouldn’t have cared when my kids were young. 

This does, however, for whatever stupid reason that I remember stupid things, remind me of this made for tv move from way too long ago: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0081257/plotsummary/?ref_=tt_ov_pl

Edited April 20, 2023 by Doc Daneeka

[High Plains Drifter 11084]

 

Earth's magnetic field intesity of about 50 uT laughs at your puny 2.75 uT.

[TwiceHorn 31705]

I think the broad consensus is that EM radiation from powerlines is harmless.

However, it will continue to be a resale hickey on the house forever. because there's no convincing some people.

[High Plains Drifter 11084]

1 hour ago, pantone159 said:

Well it is called the 'work function' not the 'working function', and it is not the fundamental basis of quantum mechanics, though it did feature prominently in Einstein's famous paper back in 1905, so I call this debunking as debunked.

But it is true that 60 hz radiation cannot destroy biological molecules the same way as e.g. xrays or gamma rays. In the case of xrays ('ionizing radiation') the electromagnetic chunks (photons/quanta) have a large amount of energy, enough so if they interact with a biological molecule, they can blast it apart, which causes a variety of bad things. But the quanta from 60 hz radiation will have an extremely low amount of energy, and one photon by itself is not going to do anything to a specific biomolecule.

 

 

For the plan II majors, 60 hz being the frequency of the AC current in the power lines.

 

 

[TwiceHorn 31705]

Just now, High Plains Drifter said:

 

For the plan II majors, 60 hz being the frequency of the AC current in the power lines.

 

 

I think it's really the Plan I majors you have to worry about.  Might as well throw in the Communications people, too. Plan II actually has to take math and science.

[Upgrayedd 5829]

You're unbelievable (oh)

[Damor 1237]

39 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

I think it's really the Plan I majors you have to worry about.  Might as well throw in the Communications people, too. Plan II actually has to take math and science.

You mean like, "Infinity is so super weird that it doesn't require a calculator!" and "So if Capt. Quackenbush's spaceship exists in only two dimensions, if he passed the event horizon of a supermassive black hole would he be stretched out like a piece of infinite Silly Putty or achieve total Consciousness?"

We looked at a property with transmission lines when our kids were little, so I read about it a bunch and asked a smart oncologist for his thoughts.  There's no good evidence to support causation.  If I remember right, the cluster cases were reported in the British Medical Journal, which for some reason likes to be alarmist about this kind of stuff and medical radiation.

Although I suppose it could be because their socialist grid is missing 10Hz of MURICAEAGLEFREEDOM.

[UTPhil2006 3838]

1 hour ago, TwiceHorn said:

I think the broad consensus is that EM radiation from powerlines is harmless.

However, it will continue to be a resale hickey on the house forever. because there's no convincing some people.

Pretty much this. Unless it’s an absolute steal sounds like it’s not worth it 

[beer 3247]

All proposals of harm remain unproven, including leukemia and brain cancer. But houses that reportedly have ghosts are hard to sell - cant fix the stupid in other people.  If that leads to profit on your end, so be it. 

[Fud 9580]

It seems clear that it’s unlikely to cause cancer

Do you guys who seem to know something about this have any concerns about other possible non-cancerous negative health effects from 20-30 mG in the backyard for little kids?

[Ronnie Fecus 3]

30 minutes ago, Fud said:

It seems clear that it’s unlikely to cause cancer

Do you guys who seem to know something about this have any concerns about other possible non-cancerous negative health effects from 20-30 mG in the backyard for little kids?

My buddy grew up near some power lines. When he closes his eyes he can watch the Tyler ABC station.

[Dahobbs 17831]

49 minutes ago, Fud said:

It seems clear that it’s unlikely to cause cancer

Do you guys who seem to know something about this have any concerns about other possible non-cancerous negative health effects from 20-30 mG in the backyard for little kids?

Well, don't let your kids climb up the Tower. Other than that, healthwise, it is fine. 

[Fud 9580]

9 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

Well, don't let your kids climb up the Tower. Other than that, healthwise, it is fine. 

I’ve come across some speculation that it could cause cognitive issues in children, but that seems to be mostly anecdotal and unsubstantiated, but I wouldn’t mind finding studies that disprove it 

[CooterBrown 18115]

There’s a simple, inexpensive solution…

[pantone159 721]

13 minutes ago, CooterBrown said:

There’s a simple, inexpensive solution…

Unfortunately metal foil will not block magnetic fields. Electrical fields, radio signals, light, yes, but magnetic fields no. Magnetic field shielding is expensive.

[High Plains Drifter 11084]

4 hours ago, Fud said:

It seems clear that it’s unlikely to cause cancer

Do you guys who seem to know something about this have any concerns about other possible non-cancerous negative health effects from 20-30 mG in the backyard for little kids?

 

The Earth's 500 mG magnetic field intensity laughs at your 20-30 mG backyard magnetic field intensity.

 

 

[NeverMarryAStripper 22054]

I’m pretty sure the magnetic fields only affect you it you’ve been vaxxed, but you should do the magnet test to be sure

[Parliament 14412]

[Dr Fear 1269]

Do you even left hand rule, brah???

[HornOnTheBayou 8972]

You're just thinking about the negatives, look on the bright side. Your kids might develop super-human strength or be able to shoot electricity out of their hands. I would call that a win.

[Dahobbs 17831]

38 minutes ago, HornOnTheBayou said:

You're just thinking about the negatives, look on the bright side. Your kids might develop super-human strength or be able to shoot electricity out of their hands. I would call that a win.

You've never dealt with a temper tantrum, I see. 

Edited April 21, 2023 by Dahobbs

[Fud 9580]

1 hour ago, HornOnTheBayou said:

You're just thinking about the negatives, look on the bright side. Your kids might develop super-human strength or be able to shoot electricity out of their hands. I would call that a win.

How do you know if you’re getting magneto or dynamo 

[MonkeyDoughnut 10487]

Agree with all above. No health issues, only resale issues.  Price discount for sure, but bigger concern for me would be potential for how much longer it might take to sell.

[Fud 9580]

4 hours ago, MonkeyDoughnut said:

Agree with all above. No health issues, only resale issues.  Price discount for sure, but bigger concern for me would be potential for how much longer it might take to sell.

This house in particular seemed fine this time around. There were three competitive offers on the first day, and there’s currently two backup offers in case it falls through 

[bernorange 8377]

You could always enclose the house and yard in a Faraday cage.

[Fudge Nuggets 19293]

On 4/20/2023 at 7:56 PM, Fud said:

I’ve come across some speculation that it could cause cognitive issues in children, but that seems to be mostly anecdotal and unsubstantiated, but I wouldn’t mind finding studies that disprove it 

Poor people are usually dumber than other people.  Poor people gravitate to houses near power lines.  Thus the speculation is true that kids that grow up near power lines are dumber than the median but not because of magnetic fields.