2020 Democratic Nominee

[Fozzz 152]

7 hours ago, Bama Chick said:

The cynic in me wonders if these endorsements are coming out now because Team Bernie doesn’t like what they’re seeing in polling.

And it doesn’t hurt to have the youngest, hippest reps come out in support as people are questioning his age and health.

Could also be because they like his politics better than Liz’s given that Liz is a blood sucking capitalist. 

[Bozo_Casanova 26283]

As a blood sucking capitalist myself, that’s very appealing. Now if only she could abandon the M4A charade for a better plan.

 

[bad_teammate 13132]

2 minutes ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

As a blood sucking capitalist myself, that’s very appealing. Now if only she could abandon the M4A charade for a better plan.

This is the part of the cycle where I ask Bozo how Wyden-Bennett is actually funded and he pretends he didn't see the question because it's exactly the same as M4A's funding mechanism and he doesn't want to acknowledge it. Because capitalists are magical thinkers who believe an invisible hand makes things happen if you just believe hard enough.

lol

Those costs would be approximately offset by revenues and savings from several sources: premium payments collected from individuals through their tax returns

 

[Hugo Stiglitz 23356]

1 hour ago, Loch Ness Monster said:

Is having the squad on your side really that great?

It’s a positive overall because they are great advocates.  The squad endorsing Bernie at this moment in the race was more strategic for the squad than Bernie.   I don’t think for a second they would be endorsing Bernie right now if he was the front runner or if Bernie didn’t have a heart attack.  In fact I’m pretty sure AOC said she was going to hold off endorsing anyone in the primary.  For Bernie, it looks like a Hail Mary to remain competitive in the top tier after the heart attack.

[Brian Fantana 6668]

15 hours ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

Thank you for your service Joe.

What service

[Js1 85110]

36 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

You're putting as hard a negative spin on it as possible, but I think you guys can do better. The heart and spirit are in there, but I think you're leaving something on the field.

Go have a coffee, play around on the whiteboard, and let's get some more nuclear takes about how endorsements from the most visible and influential progressive young women of color in Congress are Bad, Actually.

I mean those are huge endorsements within the party. But the Warren fans are all “endorsements don’t matter” that sounds like sour grapes. 

 

[FondrenRoad 4378]

7 hours ago, Bama Chick said:

The cynic in me wonders if these endorsements are coming out now because Team Bernie doesn’t like what they’re seeing in polling.

And it doesn’t hurt to have the youngest, hippest reps come out in support as people are questioning his age and health.

AOC worked on his last campaign. Not really a surprise that she would endorse him. Same with the others. DSA was already well entrenched with Bernie. 

The real issues, if there are any, will start in the general. That group needs to give enthusiastic support to the Dem primary winner rather than trying to take their football and go home like they did in 2016.  

[Js1 85110]

15 hours ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

Thank you for your service Joe.

 

Good for Joe - HarrisX, Morning Consult, Fox News

Good for Liz - YouGov, Change, QPac, Monmouth

[Fozzz 152]

9 hours ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

Hopefully Pete bleeds Biden’s support while Warren holds and attracts Biden’s black support looking for the more “electable” candidate.

He is so awful.  I can't believe there are people under 80 who fall for his shtick and find his sniveling, rat-like energy in any way appealing.  

[Bozo_Casanova 26283]

1 hour ago, bad_teammate said:

This is the part of the cycle where I ask Bozo how Wyden-Bennett is actually funded and he pretends he didn't see the question because it's exactly the same as M4A's funding mechanism and he doesn't want to acknowledge it. Because capitalists are magical thinkers who believe an invisible hand makes things happen if you just believe hard enough.

lol

Those costs would be approximately offset by revenues and savings from several sources: premium payments collected from individuals through their tax returns

 

Thats a good thing. You need to focus less on how premiums are collected and more on where the payments are made and whether a full transition to the new system can be concluded in under four years and a plurality of people can be transitioned in under a year. 

[texastough 1129]

Whether intentionally orchestrated this way or not, I think this helps Warren in the general election. The main criticism of her that I keep hearing is that she is too far left. With the squad -- widely viewed as the most liberal extreme of the Democratic Party -- endorsing Bernie, it brackets Warren somewhere further right than Bernie.

If AOC endorsed Warren, it would give the GOP free cheap shot in the general -- "she's such a lefty even AOC and the squad endorsed her!!!"

[BradInATX 9208]

2 minutes ago, texastough said:

Whether intentionally orchestrated this way or not, I think this helps Warren in the general election. The main criticism of her that I keep hearing is that she is too far left. With the squad -- widely viewed as the most liberal extreme of the Democratic Party -- endorsing Bernie, it brackets Warren somewhere further right than Bernie.

If AOC endorsed Warren, it would give the GOP free cheap shot in the general -- "she's such a lefty even AOC and the squad endorsed her!!!"

I said this on the debate thread as well, but it seems like Bernie to some extent is lead blocking for Warren. Probably unintentionally, but it's working. He's coming hard and unashamedly with progressive policies (saying M4A will raise taxes on some, the squad endorsement, etc.) while allowing Warren to sort of draft off of him as she mostly supports the same policies, but without catching the same "omg socialist" backlash that Bernie seems to get. It almost seems unfair to Bernie, but it is what it is. Whatever it is, she's rolling with it deftly.

Edited October 16, 2019 by BradInATX

[bad_teammate 13132]

1 hour ago, Js1 said:

I mean those are huge endorsements within the party. But the Warren fans are all “endorsements don’t matter” that sounds like sour grapes.

Scroll backwards until you get to the part where the Working Families Party executive board chose Warren and see the parades being thrown about how she's eating Bernie's lunch among progressives.

But this? Nah this is pointless and meaningless and actually shows how pathetic Bernie is, if you think about it.

lol

39 minutes ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

Thats a good thing. You need to focus less on how premiums are collected and more on where the payments are made and whether a full transition to the new system can be concluded in under four years and a plurality of people can be transitioned in under a year. 

Like the ACA, Wyden-Bennett would be a radical restructuring of the insurance market. There is transition to cost-controlled universal healthcare that is seamless or painless. Would you disagree? Do you think the transition to Wyden-Bennett (a plan no one is championing and is not being discussed by anyone except you) would be seamless/painless?

Medicare is an existing program with an existing regulatory infrastructure. What M4A does is simply enroll everyone into it and expand its existing scope of services. The pricing structures are already in place.

[Hugo Stiglitz 23356]

1 hour ago, Js1 said:

Warren fans are all “endorsements don’t matter” that sounds like sour grapes

So not a cult, cool.

[bad_teammate 13132]

When I think of the leader we need going forward, it's someone who tucks in behind braver and bolder people to avoid taking heat.

Inspirational, really.

[Bama Chick 28596]

OMG stop it Pete.

[henrygandorf 29177]

46 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

When I think of the leader we need going forward, it's someone who tucks in behind braver and bolder people to avoid taking heat.

Inspirational, really.

uh, it's called "drafting".  learn your nomenclature.

[henrygandorf 29177]

15 minutes ago, Bama Chick said:

OMG stop it Pete.
 

if only there was a way to make this type of criticism go away.  like, something she could say, or clarify?  not sure.

[Hugo Stiglitz 23356]

1 minute ago, henrygandorf said:

if only there was a way to make this type of criticism go away.  like, something she could say, or clarify?  not sure.

It’s obviously a liability Warren is willing to live with.  It hasn’t exactly cost her anything but everyone keeps trying real hard to make it cost her something. 

[elfenix 34171]

14 minutes ago, henrygandorf said:

uh, it's called "drafting".  learn your nomenclature.

i drafted behind people when going into dorms i didn't have a key card for

[bad_teammate 13132]

Pete attacking Liz on lack of details is hilarious. The completely empty placeholder of a candidate.

[bad_teammate 13132]

 

[Todd Gack 431]

3 hours ago, bad_teammate said:

Scroll backwards until you get to the part where the Working Families Party executive board chose Warren and see the parades being thrown about how she's eating Bernie's lunch among progressives.

But this? Nah this is pointless and meaningless and actually shows how pathetic Bernie is, if you think about it.

lol

Like the ACA, Wyden-Bennett would be a radical restructuring of the insurance market. There is transition to cost-controlled universal healthcare that is seamless or painless. Would you disagree? Do you think the transition to Wyden-Bennett (a plan no one is championing and is not being discussed by anyone except you) would be seamless/painless?

Medicare is an existing program with an existing regulatory infrastructure. What M4A does is simply enroll everyone into it and expand its existing scope of services. The pricing structures are already in place.

So I think I get why dem candidates avoid talking about the additional costs/taxes to pay for M4A, but have any of them addressed the type of expansion to the infrastructure that will be needed?  Additional staff, social security offices, a more robust cyber security system to avoid fraud to the system, etc.  Seems as if there's an opportunity to say that some jobs (albeit federal jobs only) will be created to offset the loss of jobs in the private insurance sector.  Unless the ratio of jobs lost to gained is ridiculously skewed like 50:1 or something. 

Plus it may play well with the average Joe to point out that all those insurance execs making millions per year on the backs of sick Americans will soon be unemployed and have to sell their beach houses.

[Mojo Hand 4580]

5 hours ago, Brian Fantana said:

What service

Maybe Hugo works for a big bank. 

[bad_teammate 13132]

Just now, Todd Gack said:

So I think I get why dem candidates avoid talking about the additional costs/taxes to pay for M4A, but have any of them addressed the type of expansion to the infrastructure that will be needed?  Additional staff, social security offices, a more robust cyber security system to avoid fraud to the system, etc.  Seems as if there's an opportunity to say that some jobs (albeit federal jobs only) will be created to offset the loss of jobs in the private insurance sector.  Unless the ratio of jobs lost to gained is ridiculously skewed like 50:1 or something. 

Bernie has a detailed just transition built into his Green New Deal plan and he has talked on the stump about a just transition for health insurance industry workers, but I haven't seen the same level of detail.

He has absolutely discussed the need for a just transition in those fields in addition to the need to staff up the Medicare administrative teams.

It's a good and important thing to think about. ALL of these plans will be hugely disruptive and we need to make sure everyone is financially secure.

Quote

Plus it may play well with the average Joe to point out that all those insurance execs making millions per year on the backs of sick Americans will soon be unemployed and have to sell their beach houses.

Hell yes. No war but class war.

[bad_teammate 13132]

I am trying very hard to not gleefully post every bitter white liberal with a blue checkmark on Twitter who is FURIOUS about these young women of color endorsing Bernie, but this one is so good

White women, come gather your sisters. They're wild out here.

[Mojo Hand 4580]

1 hour ago, henrygandorf said:

if only there was a way to make this type of criticism go away.  like, something she could say, or clarify?  not sure.

What does she need to clarify?   The health care plan she supports is literally a bill sitting in the Senate.   The specifics are as open and detailed as you can get. 

The critics don't want clarity.  They want to force her into their messaging framework against the proposal. 

[bad_teammate 13132]

2 minutes ago, Mojo Hand said:

What does she need to clarify?   The health care plan she supports is literally a bill sitting in the Senate.   The specifics are as open and detailed as you can get. 

The critics don't want clarity.  They want to force her into their messaging framework against the proposal. 

The real war is inside the party and it is against the donor class who pretends to care about social and economic justice but, at the end of the day, their ultimate loyalty is a class loyalty. They do not want their stations of power and privilege threatened.

[Bama Chick 28596]

if only there was a way to make this type of criticism go away.  like, something she could say, or clarify?  not sure.

It’s not the substance of the message with Pete but the snarky dickish style he’s adopted as of late.

And for a dude that charges five fucking hundred dollars for a selfie, he’s the last one that should be making that kind of lame crack.

FFS he’s got Drudge and Breitbart fluffing him today.

And now he’s all about specifics??

And what happened to this Pete from the September debate?

“This is why presidential debates are becoming unwatchable,” Buttigieg interjected, taking the floor from Andrew Yang, after Yang had said to Biden and Castro, “Come on, guys.”

Buttigieg continued.

“This reminds everybody of what they cannot stand about Washington, scoring points against each other, poking at each other, and telling each other that — my plan, your plan. Look, we all have different visions for what is better …

Picking a fight to stay relevant indeed.

[F250 28689]

9 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

I am trying very hard to not gleefully post every bitter white liberal with a blue checkmark on Twitter who is FURIOUS about these young women of color endorsing Bernie, but this one is so good

White women, come gather your sisters. They're wild out here.

Interesting phenomenon. Reminds me of Richard Rorty's concept of the "reformist" left vs. the "cultural" left.

 

[F250 28689]

24 minutes ago, Bama Chick said:

 

It’s not the substance of the message with Pete but the snarky dickish style he’s adopted as of late.

And for a dude that charges five fucking hundred dollars for a selfie, he’s the last one that should be making that kind of lame crack.

FFS he’s got Drudge and Breitbart fluffing him today.

And now he’s all about specifics??

 

 

And what happened to this Pete from the September debate?



Picking a fight to stay relevant indeed.

Pete is executing a pretty good plan by throwing bananas behind him to trip up his fellow moderates that are trailing him and taking shots at Warren in order to present himself as a pragmatic moderate. If he is successful he will be in the final four when Bernie and Warren will need to fight it out and then he is left with taking out Biden.

I would not be surprised to see a final showdown between Pete and Warren after Pete chops off Biden's head while yelling "there can only be one!" as he absorbs Biden's big money donors from the ether.

 

 

Edited October 16, 2019 by F250

[bad_teammate 13132]

Love to watch the world burn and cheer for a moderate who I know doesn't want to do anything about it and doesn't have the support or power to achieve even if he wanted to.

Hell yeah.

[Js1 85110]

1 hour ago, bad_teammate said:

 

The tweet forgets:

Kamala Harris: says anything at all

white liberals: SHUT UP COP

[henrygandorf 29177]

39 minutes ago, Mojo Hand said:

What does she need to clarify?   The health care plan she supports is literally a bill sitting in the Senate.   The specifics are as open and detailed as you can get. 

The critics don't want clarity.  They want to force her into their messaging framework against the proposal. 

then how come every time she's pushed on taxing and costs she doesn't just say, "it's bernie's m4a bill, it's all right there in black and white"?

i was told last night that it was to avoid giving republicans talking points/soundbytes and being evasive was a strategy.  is this not the case?

 

 

Edited October 16, 2019 by henrygandorf
mind your business

[bad_teammate 13132]

8 minutes ago, Js1 said:

The tweet forgets:

Kamala Harris: says anything at all

white liberals: SHUT UP COP

White liberals love Kamala.

I think you mean leftists/progressives?

[Mojo Hand 4580]

3 minutes ago, henrygandorf said:

then how come every time she's pushed on taxing and costs she doesn't just say, "it's bernie's m4a bill, it's all right there in black and white"?

i was told last night that it was to avoid giving republicans talking points/soundbytes and being evasive was a strategy.  is this not the case?

 

 

She's not saying that because she's using her time to play offense, not defense, on this issue.  Yes, she's refusing to give opponents a soundbite to take out of context.   That doesn't mean the details of the plan aren't fully known.   It's precisely because they are known that her opponents are hitting her on raising taxes.  They just want her to say the words "Yes middle class taxes will go up" on camera so it can be used against her in deceptive ads. 

[Hank Kingsley 20705]

4 minutes ago, Mojo Hand said:

They just want her to say the words "Yes middle class taxes will go up" on camera so it can be used against her in deceptive ads. 

How do you buy this complete nonsense? 

 

[Todd Gack 431]

7 minutes ago, Hank Kingsley said:

How do you buy this complete nonsense? 

 

It's really the only explanation that makes sense.  If Liz and Bernie know that projections show M4A will actually save people money (as in the amount in additional taxes will be less than the current premiums/deductibles for the VAST majority of Americans), what other reason could they have for not articulating this to everyone watching these debates.  Might it be that some dickface on the trump campaign will clip the soundbite and broadcast through every media outlet that the socialist dems will in FACT raise your taxes to pay for the healthcare of all the dirty mexicans crossing illegally?  Remember the doctored clip of Jim Acosta "assaulting" the press room microphone lady?  Or shit, Hillary's deplorable comment if we want to see how it plays during a campaign?

[Hank Kingsley 20705]

2 minutes ago, Todd Gack said:

It's really the only explanation that makes sense.  If Liz and Bernie know that projections show M4A will actually save people money (as in the amount in additional taxes will be less than the current premiums/deductibles for the VAST majority of Americans), what other reason could they have for not articulating this to everyone watching these debates.  Might it be that some dickface on the trump campaign will clip the soundbite and broadcast through every media outlet that the socialist dems will in FACT raise your taxes to pay for the healthcare of all the dirty mexicans crossing illegally?  Remember the doctored clip of Jim Acosta "assaulting" the press room microphone lady?  Or shit, Hillary's deplorable comment if we want to see how it plays during a campaign?

The GOP could run an attack ad RIGHT NOW on Warren over middle class taxes if they want. They don't need some precious "soundbite" to literally say whatever the fuck they want about ANY candidate.  What planet am I on? Where are their attack ads on Bernie for telling the truth about taxes for M4A? 

If they needed a soundbite, they already have it. "I'm with Bernie on Medicare For All". Boom. That's all they need. 

How do you dodge this for another year? Is Warren planning on not releasing a detailed healthcare plan?

 

[henrygandorf 29177]

2 minutes ago, Hank Kingsley said:

The GOP could run an attack ad RIGHT NOW on Warren over middle class taxes if they want. They don't need some precious "soundbite" to literally say whatever the fuck they want about ANY candidate.  What planet am I on? Where are their attack ads on Bernie for telling the truth about taxes for M4A? 

If they needed a soundbite, they already have it. "I'm with Bernie on Medicare For All". Boom. That's all they need. 

How do you dodge this for another year? Is Warren planning on not releasing a detailed healthcare plan?

they could run any deceptive ad they want to yesterday.  not only that, but they could run a "even her fellow democrats are wondering...what is she hiding" ad right now.

they could run the clip from the stephen colbert show and actually get good traction.  they will make false statements and scare tactics about socialism or taking away your healthcare and giving it to immigrants.  they're gonna do that shit anyway.

warren is going to be the nominee, and god willing, our next president, but she will continue to get hammered on this until she clarifies.  the "soundbyte" excuse is tired.

[henrygandorf 29177]

13 minutes ago, Todd Gack said:

It's really the only explanation that makes sense.

the only other explanation is that she's giving herself room to pivot away from the full bernie version of m4a in the general.

i really hope it's not this, but it's the alternative explanation.

[bad_teammate 13132]

I mean, I wish Liz would be vocal and forceful in defense of social welfare programs and funding them properly through collective taxation as part of a larger common decency and unity, but that's a criticism from the left, not the right.

The only reason the Petehead vampire brigade wants her to talk about it is so they can say, "Oh so you want to RAISE TAXES????" because they are 1990s Republicans at heart.

Why is Pete's plan so vague and dishonest? Why is its selling point a complete lie (that you get to keep your plan and choose what you want)? (Same for Beto and his equally stupid and vague plan. Joe Biden's plan is more comprehensively explained than the plans of those two. Kamala's is a joke.)

1 minute ago, henrygandorf said:

the only other explanation is that she's giving herself room to pivot away from the full bernie version of m4a in the general.

This will blow up spectacularly in her face. If she does this I will not only leave the top line blank, I will encourage others not to vote for her, and I'm someone who was fine with voting for Hillary and encouraged others to do so.

I don't think it's an exaggeration to say it will give Trump a second term.

[Hank Kingsley 20705]

3 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

The only reason the Petehead vampire brigade wants her to talk about it is so they can say, "Oh so you want to RAISE TAXES????" because they are 1990s Republicans at heart.

Haha, nope. 

She hasn't released a detailed healthcare plan. If she dropped a real M4A plan on her website and admitted that middle class taxes would go up, but overall costs would go down, there'd be nothing to complain about. 

You don't see me bitching about Bernie on this issue. 

 

[bad_teammate 13132]

Just now, longhornmatt said:

You would not vote against Trump if she simply proposes anything less in the general than Bernie’s version of M4A?  

I would be happy to vote for Liz if she abandons M4A now in favor of some stupid garbage like the bad candidates offer. If she gives us a chance to know who she is before the primary votes that's fine. I'll happily vote for Pete or Beto or Kamala or even stupid dying-brain Joe because I know right now they have stupid plans and they suck, but at least they are being honest right now.

If she turns after lying through the primary votes, I will not be voting for her because she lied to me about the most important issue there is.

"BUT TRUMP!" isn't going to compel me in that specific case. You'd be offering me an untrustworthy liar as an alternative and that doesn't move me.

[henrygandorf 29177]

5 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

This will blow up spectacularly in her face. If she does this I will not only leave the top line blank, I will encourage others not to vote for her, and I'm someone who was fine with voting for Hillary and encouraged others to do so.

I don't think it's an exaggeration to say it will give Trump a second term.

so what's your take on it then?  do you think she's just avoiding giving the right a soundbyte?

[Js1 85110]

1 minute ago, bad_teammate said:

I would be happy to vote for Liz if she abandons M4A now in favor of some stupid garbage like the bad candidates offer. If she gives us a chance to know who she is before the primary votes that's fine. I'll happily vote for Pete or Beto or Kamala or even stupid dying-brain Joe because I know right now they have stupid plans and they suck, but at least they are being honest right now.

If she turns after lying through the primary votes, I will not be voting for her because she lied to me about the most important issue there is.

"BUT TRUMP!" isn't going to compel me in that specific case. You'd be offering me an untrustworthy liar as an alternative and that doesn't move me.

I wouldn’t go as far as him, but her pivoting on such a big issue (issue #1 in most cases) AFTER the primary where she was vague about it the entire time just to win reeks of dishonesty.

I would hope she sticks to a plan (if she ever releases one) and lives and dies by it.   Compromise after you win the whole thing - politics, costs, polling, blame congress, whatever - but run on what you won the nomination with. 

[Mojo Hand 4580]

30 minutes ago, Hank Kingsley said:

The GOP could run an attack ad RIGHT NOW on Warren over middle class taxes if they want. They don't need some precious "soundbite" to literally say whatever the fuck they want about ANY candidate.  What planet am I on? Where are their attack ads on Bernie for telling the truth about taxes for M4A? 

If they needed a soundbite, they already have it. "I'm with Bernie on Medicare For All". Boom. That's all they need. 

How do you dodge this for another year? Is Warren planning on not releasing a detailed healthcare plan?

 

This isn't about the GOP right now.   It's the primaries.   And if getting her to say the words is so unimportant, why is she constantly being asked to do it? 

[Hank Kingsley 20705]

*ominous evil movie trailer guy voice*

Bernie Sanders' Medicare For All plan will raise taxes on the middle class, taking money away from hard working families...

CUT TO: Warren on stage at 2nd debate, camera pans closer and closer to her face

                                      WARREN 

                  "I'm with Bernie on Medicare For All"

*Quick rewind of tape*

                                    WARREN

                "I'm with Bernie on Medicare For All"

*Quick rewind of tape"

                                  WARREN

              "I'm with Bernie on Medicare For all"

Cut to BLACK

*ominous evil movie trailer guy voice*

Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren will raise taxes on the middle class. 

 

 

There's your fucking attack ad. Stop being suckers. 

 

 

[Mojo Hand 4580]

2 minutes ago, Hank Kingsley said:

*ominous evil movie trailer guy voice*

Bernie Sanders' Medicare For All plan will raise taxes on the middle class, taking money away from hard working families...

CUT TO: Warren on stage at 2nd debate, camera pans closer and closer to her face

                                      WARREN 

                  "I'm with Bernie on Medicare For All"

*Quick rewind of tape*

                                    WARREN

                "I'm with Bernie on Medicare For All"

*Quick rewind of tape"

                                  WARREN

              "I'm with Bernie on Medicare For all"

Cut to BLACK

*ominous evil movie trailer guy voice*

Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren will raise taxes on the middle class. 

 

 

There's your fucking attack ad. Stop being suckers. 

 

 

You're undermining your own point.  How do you not see that this ad is nowhere near as effective as replacing those quotes with "yes, middle class taxes will go up"?   Bernie is a popular guy.  MFA is a popular brand.  Middle class tax increase is poison. 

Edited October 16, 2019 by Mojo Hand

[Hank Kingsley 20705]

Just now, Mojo Hand said:

You're undermining your own point.  How do you not see that this add is nowhere near as effective as replacing those quotes with "yes, middle class taxes will go up"? 

Independents and Republicans sitting at home eating popcorn. 

"Yeah, I don't believe that ad. I didn't specifically hear the word 'taxes' come out of her mouth, so it can't possibly be true. Liz 2020!"