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2020 Democratic Nominee

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David Dennison

David Dennison 18946

Posted
Posted
3 minutes ago, washparkhorn said:

Taking a flyer is pretending a Hilary-type nominee can beat Tump. Didn't work in 2016. Why would it work today?

Seriously - tell me why a Third Way Democrat in 2020 will beat Trump when a Third Way Democrat lost to him in 2016?

That appears to be the definition of insanity, especially as Third Way candidates have become more and despised since 2009.

The establishment is trying to protect its wealth. This has everything to do with money.

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Huckleberry
Huckleberry

No it doesn't, this is absurd selfishness on a grand scale. Nobody is getting punished. My wife and I paid off our student loans, and you know what I think about younger people or even those in our ge

henrygandorf
henrygandorf

i’ve really enjoyed the 900 posts from bt explaining how bernie people aren’t aggressive, obsessive, and very-online.  truly a learning experience. 

Bill Clinton
Bill Clinton

3rd or 4th thread but whos counting.  Name recognition and ability to collect money is most important to the Democratic Party. They aren't trying to win 2020, they are trying to rebuild and colle

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FondrenRoad

FondrenRoad 4378

Posted
Posted
9 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

And she should drop out and fully support Bernie Sanders after she gets her clocked cleaned tonight and in New Hampshire.

Oh yeah, she should totally drop out if she loses in two small states which have a combined delegate total that is two thirds of her home state. 

Nobody is dropping out until after super Tuesday. Bernie is never going to drop out even if he trails Warren at that point and will hand the nomination to Biden while doing so. Warren will drop out if she trails Bernie.

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David Dennison

David Dennison 18946

Posted
Posted
2 minutes ago, Dropout said:

I’ve been waiting to enjoy this view for awhile now. Relax and don’t go all Chris Matthews on me. Can’t wait to welcome and call you all Bernie Bros. 

In a perfect world, everyone not named Sanders and Biden drops out after tonight so the party can get the actual fight over with as quickly as possible before people get so mad that they don't support the eventual nominee.

I'm worried that it's already too late. 

 

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washparkhorn

washparkhorn 9939

Posted
Posted (edited)
15 minutes ago, troph said:

You can argue all you want. I know you and bt are always right about this stuff, but millions of us - a lot of us Warren supporters - see it, we say it, and we are told by guys like you we are just simply wrong.

Then let's not get into it. Vote with your conscience and be adaptable to change. 

I believe in the Elizabeth Warren of 2008. Her voice was necessary and it was progressive in calling out the structural failure of unconfined greed. 

Cheers.

Edited by washparkhorn
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bad_teammate

bad_teammate 13224

Posted
Posted
39 minutes ago, longhornmatt said:

You realize attacks are much more effective when they’re actually true, right?

 

Tell me the voter profile you're imagining with this.

Quote

On the other hand, with Bernie they can point to him doing actual crazy communist things for decades.

Like?

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Message Board User

Message Board User 12396

Posted
Posted
19 minutes ago, longhornmatt said:

Bernie Sanders is not like JFK or LBJ, or even like FDR.  And, yes, he actually was a supporter of Marxist parties in the 80s.  He’s just smart enough to rebrand himself with better sounding words now.

Then again, maybe we don’t understand.  A majority of people, when asked if they would like Medicare for All (without defining what M4A specifically means or mentioning any of the tradeoffs that come with it), said they were for it.  Ergo, there is no downside risk to nominating a guy who honeymooned in the Soviet Union during the Cold War and wants to fundamentally transform the American economy.  He’s just like JFK.

What’s funny is that if Bernie is the nominee and gets clobbered in November, his supporters will blame the general election voters for being out of touch without a hint of self reflection.

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Message Board User

Message Board User 12396

Posted
Posted
8 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

In a perfect world, everyone not named Sanders and Biden drops out after tonight so the party can get the actual fight over with as quickly as possible before people get so mad that they don't support the eventual nominee.

I'm worried that it's already too late. 

 

The convention is going to be an absolute circus no matter who is the nominee.

 I’m sure the Squad (tm) will do their part in reaching out to swing voters.

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Dropout

Dropout 355

Posted
Posted
3 minutes ago, Message Board User said:

What’s funny is that if Bernie is the nominee and gets clobbered in November, his supporters will blame the general election voters for being out of touch without a hint of self reflection.

You’ve just described what’s actually happened for centrists and corporate democrats. Not imaginary like your scenario.

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Aqua Buddha

Aqua Buddha 14608

Posted
Posted
22 minutes ago, washparkhorn said:

Taking a flyer is pretending a Hilary-type nominee can beat Tump. Didn't work in 2016. Why would it work today?

Seriously - tell me why a Third Way Democrat in 2020 will beat Trump when a Third Way Democrat lost to him in 2016?

That appears to be the definition of insanity, especially as Third Way candidates have become more and despised since 2009.

Because they’re a better candidate.

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washparkhorn

washparkhorn 9939

Posted
Posted
4 minutes ago, Message Board User said:

What’s funny is that if Bernie is the nominee and gets clobbered in November, his supporters will blame the general election voters for being out of touch without a hint of self reflection.

No we won't

First - if Sanders gets the nomination, he will win against Trump. Trump is an intellectual lightweight who flies by the seat of his pants. He does not have the intelligence to confront Sanders. Sanders has a genuine message for the working and middle classes. He has never wavered. 

Trump can't claim he is part of the rigged system. 

Trump can't attack him from a faux-left perspective, as he did in 2016. 

That leaves Trump one lane - tired, wheezy, angry superiority complex - where Trump looks his ugliest and disgusts the most Americans. 

It's math. Confine Trump to that little corner and he loses - every time. 

If Sanders were to lose it will be because corporate media pushes false narratives that support their bottom line - not what is best for America. 

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MaybeACoordinator

MaybeACoordinator 8349

Posted
Posted

Say we choose the "safe" path and pick Biden. Trump will spend the entire campaign calling out Hunter's daddy-abetted shenanigans in the Ukraine thereby both-sidesing the fuck out of the proceedings and stifling any kind of mass groundswell to vote him out.  You can't expect  great masses of voters who sat 2016 out to suddenly erupt from the woodwork in 2020 to vote for a pervy, cranky, misanthropic, corporate-owned old codger whose sole selling point is that he maybe has slightly better manners and different corporate overlords than the other pervy, cranky, misanthropic, corporate-owned old codger. Voters need something to believe in, not just something to vote out, and nobody in this country can solemnly swear, or even tell you with a straight face, "I believe in Joe Biden."

Obama made people feel good and powerful voting for him, because he promised hope and change. (Failing to deliver much of both, but that's another thread.) 

Hillary did not, and Biden will not.  

 

 

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JimmyJames

JimmyJames 12271

Posted
Posted

It’s going to be either Bernie or Biden as the nominee and either one will beat trump fairly easily so long as the election isn’t stolen (not a safe assumption) just like either one would’ve beat trump back in 2016.
 

Right or wrong many independents and even some male dems didn’t like Hillary and that’s why she lost or at least made it close enough for manafort and the Russians to steal it without making it look too obvious. 
 

So unless Hillary comes walking through that door again, trump will be not only the worst president in history, but also a one termer. 

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washparkhorn

washparkhorn 9939

Posted
Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, Aqua Buddha said:

Because they’re a better candidate.

Who is "they're" and explain how Trump doesn't use his 2016 playbook against these "better candidates" please?  I want to understand the logic. Who is your candidate and why will she/he/they beat Trump?

If you say Biden - no need bothering to explain it. 

Edited by washparkhorn
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Js1

Js1 85570

Posted
Posted
3 minutes ago, JimmyJames said:

It’s going to be either Bernie or Biden as the nominee and either one will beat trump fairly easily so long as the election isn’t stolen (not a safe assumption) just like either one would’ve beat trump back in 2016.
 

Right or wrong many independents and even some male dems didn’t like Hillary and that’s why she lost or at least made it close enough for manafort and the Russians to steal it without making it look too obvious. 
 

So unless Hillary comes walking through that door again, trump will be not only the worst president in history, but also a one termer. 

Exactly. Biden does not have a 30 year smear campaign by Rush and fox news against him. Nor does he give off the “coastal elite” thing middle America hates. He’s Scranton Joe and real people like him. 

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bad_teammate

bad_teammate 13224

Posted
Posted

He will try to attack Bernie as a socialist. But whether it lands and whether it hurts are separate questions.

He won't hide from it or apologize, so it won't hurt him among persuadable people who will judge based on the confidence of the attacker/defender. We take our cues from how people react, so if the Sanders campaign and, perhaps more importantly, the Sanders coalition doesn't react like the punch hurt then people won't think it was a hard punch.

Democrats usually collapse in the face of that punch. They fall to the mat. Bernie will smile at it, and the Bros will hoot and holler and post Soviet memes and make a joke out of it.

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Todd Gack

Todd Gack 432

Posted
Posted
8 minutes ago, washparkhorn said:

No we won't

First - if Sanders gets the nomination, he will win against Trump. Trump is an intellectual lightweight who flies by the seat of his pants. He does not have the intelligence to confront Sanders. Sanders has a genuine message for the working and middle classes. He has never wavered. 

Trump can't claim he is part of the rigged system. 

Trump can't attack him from a faux-left perspective, as he did in 2016. 

That leaves Trump one lane - tired, wheezy, angry superiority complex - where Trump looks his ugliest and disgusts the most Americans. 

It's math. Confine Trump to that little corner and he loses - every time. 

If Sanders were to lose it will be because corporate media pushes false narratives that support their bottom line - not what is best for America. 

I very much believe this will happen and I also think that plutocrats will funnel absurd amounts of money into trump's campaign to wage an amplified fake news war on social media. 

Having said that, Bernie wins easily if young people vote because most of them at least can recognize bullshit on FB when they see it.

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JimmyJames

JimmyJames 12271

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Posted

This isn’t 2004. Nobody is getting “swift boated.”

This isn’t 1988, nobody is dropping out because of an extramarital affair. 
 

The game has changed for better or worse because of trump, mainly worse. Both sides are welcome to attack each other to their hearts content and all it will do is move the needle an inch each way, which means not at all. 
 

Hunter Biden isn’t gonna bring joe down. Bernie visiting the Soviet Union isn’t gonna bring him down. When trump craps his pants during a debate that’s not gonna bring him down either.

Like our good friend Charlie once said, the cake is baked. And short of election shenanigans or an alien invasion, the die is cast. 

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Hank Kingsley

Hank Kingsley 21054

Posted
Posted
10 minutes ago, Js1 said:

Exactly. Biden does not have a 30 year smear campaign by Rush and fox news against him. Nor does he give off the “coastal elite” thing middle America hates. He’s Scranton Joe and real people like him. 

There are Republican senators literally already threatening to impeach Biden over the Ukraine stuff if he becomes President. 

 

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Aqua Buddha

Aqua Buddha 14608

Posted
Posted
13 minutes ago, washparkhorn said:

Who is "they're" and explain how Trump doesn't use his 2016 playbook against these "better candidates" please?  I want to understand the logic. Who is your candidate and why will she/he/they beat Trump?

If you say Biden - no need bothering to explain it. 

Hillary was the most unpopular major candidate in history.  (This is not an opinion.)

My candidate is Bloomberg with Kloubachar as his VP.  It expands the map in suburban areas and builds on gains made in the mid terms where the Dems ran moderate candidates.

Why should the Dems do something they’ve never done before?  How does that expand the map?  Why take the risk?

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Hank Kingsley

Hank Kingsley 21054

Posted
Posted (edited)

We've gone through almost a year of Democratic campaigning, and the infighting before a single vote has been cast has left people divided with a lot of hurt feelings. 

And during this past year, the GOP and Trumpkins have basically just been watching and laughing from the sidelines. They haven't even begun their attacks. 

I have little faith in Americans to be able to handle the psychological warfare they will eventually deploy. 

 

EDIT: To BT's point, if the play is just to fight back at Trumpkins, Berners are the only supporters that have the firepower and organization to execute it. 

Edited by Hank Kingsley
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GSU&UT

GSU&UT 1798

Posted
Posted
4 minutes ago, Aqua Buddha said:

Hillary was the most unpopular major candidate in history.  (This is not an opinion.)

My candidate is Bloomberg with Kloubachar as his VP.  It expands the map in suburban areas and builds on gains made in the mid terms where the Dems ran moderate candidates.

Why should the Dems do something they’ve never done before?  How does that expand the map?  Why take the risk?

holy shit, Bloomberg does absolutely nothing to energize voters and has a very awful past because of his implementation of a Stop and Frisk system. He is a less stupid Trump, I'd fully expect him to ratchet up the War on Drugs and implement means testing for social welfare programs. The only reason he is polling well is because he's running ads in state where basically no other candidate is, I fully expect him to drop by Super Tuesday. Klobuchar literally couldn't not fucking answer this with her own awful past either,

 

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washparkhorn

washparkhorn 9939

Posted
Posted
6 minutes ago, workswithseed said:

You're wrong, but keep beating that drum.

It has been that way for a while now. It was glaring in 2016.

Quote

The age gap between Clinton supporters and Sanders supporters was huge. According to the entrance polls, which wrongly predicted a Clinton victory, Sanders got eighty-six per cent of the Democratic vote in the seventeen-to-twenty-four age group, eighty-one per cent in the twenty-five-to-twenty-nine group, and sixty-five per cent in the thirty-to-thirty-nine age group. Clinton, by contrast, was largely reliant on the middle-aged and the elderly. Among forty-something voters, she won by five percentage points. Among the over-fifties, she won by more than twenty per cent.

https://www.newyorker.com/news/john-cassidy/bernie-sanders-just-changed-the-democratic-party

Cold war hysteria has been put into perspective for younger Americans. 

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GSU&UT

GSU&UT 1798

Posted
Posted (edited)
2 minutes ago, workswithseed said:

As a 27 year old and friends with other young people my age group. I also have a life line as to what they think.

You aren't 27 or if you are you must have grown up around nothing but upper middle-class white people. I live  and grew up in Georgia, I know of very few people my age (32) in the Atlanta suburbs where any of them beyond the super white dudes who grew up in very well off circumstances that support the GOP (and even those guys often are more libertarian). I haven't heard anyone under 40 act scared of the "SOCIALISM" label.

Edited by GSU&UT
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MaybeACoordinator

MaybeACoordinator 8349

Posted
Posted

Socialism and even communism were once so potent and intoxicating to great masses of Americans that even a born elite like FDR saw that adoption of some of those policies was necessary to halt the USA from tipping over full-bore into that economy. The economy hummed along pretty well there for decades but the GOP first halted any further progress in that direction (Truman's stab at national health) and then started rolling it all back, and now here we are, sliding toward a Brazilian future. 

Western societies are defined by the fact that they have middle classes. Third World countries generally do not. Preserving the middle class, and bettering the lives of the working class, now urgently requires that we stop ladling more and more cash and power to the elites and clawing it back toward us.

First rule of holes: stop digging. We have exactly 1.5 candidates who are even talking about that in a serious way, and Bernie's solutions differ not just in degree but in kind from Warren's.

Today's GOP is a bullet train to Favelaville. The DNC is more like a local commuter, but it's headed there all the same. Bernie is the only train heading with real conviction in the other direction.

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washparkhorn

washparkhorn 9939

Posted
Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, workswithseed said:

As a 27 year old and friends with other young people my age group. I also have a life line as to what they think.

No need to answer or explain because it is personal information, but I would love to understand the socioeconomic demographic involved. Would this group vote for Trump over Sanders? 

Edited by washparkhorn
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tantric superman

tantric superman 4667

Posted
Posted
3 minutes ago, MaybeACoordinator said:

Socialism and even communism were once so potent and intoxicating to great masses of Americans that even a born elite like FDR saw that adoption of some of those policies was necessary to halt the USA from tipping over full-bore into that economy.

The Great Depression was even more potent to the great masses, and if we were a few years into it I'd say that the USA would be very open intoxicated by Bernie.

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workswithseed

workswithseed 2110

Posted
Posted
Just now, washparkhorn said:

No need to answer or explain because it is personal information, but I would love to understand the socioeconomic demographic involved. Would this group for Trump over Sanders? 

I live in Portland, most are left leaning as it is. I only know 2 of that support Sanders. 

The rest are apolitical that don't mind the economy as is, but would probably vote on social issues.

I only know of a family of pubs.

 

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ndawg

ndawg 1242

Posted
Posted (edited)

The idea that a middle-of-the-road Democratic candidate will fare better than a socialist like Sanders strikes me as short-sighted.

The GOP at present has a stranglehold on the economy narrative, i.e. they get to determine whether working and middle class white Americans perceive the economy as strong or weak. When the stock markets are great, and a Democrat is in the White House, the GOP has made hay out of the "numbers aren't telling the whole story" narrative. Conversely, when the stock markets drop with a Republican in the White House, they can counteract the reputation hit by fear-mongering socialism. When Democrats win elections, the GOP still wins so long as they can sustain the socialism boogeyman, because the fear of being perceived as a socialist tends to keep moderate Dems in check.

The left needs to rid "socialism" of the stigma it has with center/independent white voters. By breaking the power that word has over so many Americans, we stand to diminish the GOP's power bigly.

Liberals need to understand that, as repulsive as it is to accept, a lot of working/middle class white Americans believe Trump is interested in improving their lot in life. They buy into the notion that the "elites" run the country, and still see Trump as an outsider. More than the other Dem candidates, Sanders can steal that narrative away from Trump, and *that's* why his far-left ideology is vastly overstated as a liability. The fact that he can also destigmatize "socialism" makes him a very attractive candidate to oppose Trump.

I've been leaning Warren up until the recent spat, and now I'm ready to put the Bernie sign in my yard. I'm not a rich man, but I'm in a much better situation financially than most of Trump's supporters. The message that well-off Republicans and centrists need to hear over and over is that nobody's wealth is safe if we regress into a banana republic.

Edited by ndawg
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