2020 Democratic Nominee

[mchookem 16772]

yes, because why the fuck not... what we have in the white house now is disastrous for the world as far as i'm concerned. 

buncha self-righteous blowhard pricks on this board who can't figure out who the real enemy is aren't going to prevent me from going blue no matter who. i've been ignoring them (well, a couple of them lol) for months now.

if it's Sanders, so be it. i'm not very confident, but fuck it, let's do this. 

[gmr548 16702]

1 minute ago, Message Board User said:

What if I think Bernie's policies and proposals would be disastrous for the country? 

Am I still obligated to vote for him even if he's not Trump?

As a non-Sanders supporter I think the answer is simple there. Yes. Because it goes beyond policy. Donald Trump is blatantly making a mockery of everything in the Constitution and all this country is supposed to stand for. Sanders, or pretty much anyone else, would be a victory for the foundation of American democracy.

But beyond that, I guess I'm curious as to what about Sanders's platform would be a disaster when most candidates aren't that far off. Sanders has essentially set the tone for the discussion in the Democratic party - the debate within the party is essentially working from his stances as starting points with other candidates making adjustments as they see fit. If a Pete B, Klobuchar, or Biden is clearly superior to Trump in terms of policy, how is Sanders clearly worse?

[David Dennison 19556]

2 minutes ago, mchookem said:

yes, because why the fuck not... what we have in the white house now is disastrous for the world as far as i'm concerned. 

buncha self-righteous blowhard pricks on this board who can't figure out who the real enemy is aren't going to prevent me from going blue no matter who. i've been ignoring them (well, a couple of them lol) for months now.

if it's Sanders, so be it. i'm not very confident, but fuck it, let's do this. 

That's where I am. Let's go all the way left, put him at the top of the ticket and see what happens.

 

[bad_teammate 13557]

1 minute ago, Bruh Man said:

A lot of freaking out on the Sunday morning shows about down ballot Dems. Is there any proof that conservative Democratic and Independent voters that are uncomfortable with Bernie will go in the voter booth and vote House/Senate Dems out simply because Bernie is on top of the ticket or are they thinking that Bernie depresses them to not even show up to vote? 

I haven't seen any evidence that would happen.

It might depress turnout, though, that's a reasonable fear.

Bernie is very popular overall, though, and won the conservative/moderate Dems in Nevada, so that's encouraging.

[tantric superman 4668]

13 hours ago, F250 said:

The Tío Bernie thing is catching on. Normally when a white person gets that designation it means they are part of the tribe and an attack on Tío is an attack on the tribe. It's pretty impressive to see how Bernie pulled this off while even Castro and pandering Beto couldn't, authenticity matters.

 

Yeah, it's nice to be positive but folks better get ready for Pinche Bernie to catch on if he wins the primary and Trump wins the general election.

[Ghost of LL 15698]

Jesus fucking christ this thread.

Someone knock me the fuck out and wake me up on November 3rd please.

These next eight months are gonna SUCK.

Not nearly as much as the next four years.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[bad_teammate 13557]

 

[mchookem 16772]

i'm glad he went at Chris Matthews on his own network. he said some ridiculous bullshit.

[tantric superman 4668]

35 minutes ago, gmr548 said:

But beyond that, I guess I'm curious as to what about Sanders's platform would be a disaster when most candidates aren't that far off.

Bingo.  People need to make this as simple as possible.  Once people answer this question for themselves, I think it makes all the infighting or focus on how mean one set of twitter types are another to be laughably irrelevant. 

 

[Message Board User 12408]

46 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

What policies would be disastrous for the country?

Off the top of my head - Green New Deal, national rent control, open borders (euphamize it all you want - he's advocating for open borders), raising taxes on almost everyone, and free college.

[bad_teammate 13557]

And Sharia law, don't forget Sharia law.

[Aqua Buddha 14807]

5 minutes ago, Message Board User said:

Off the top of my head - Green New Deal, national rent control, open borders (euphamize it all you want - he's advocating for open borders), raising taxes on almost everyone, and free college.

Add on student loan forgiveness.  

[Kel Varnsen 8749]

Taxing billionaires... disastrous for us

[gmr548 16702]

A lot of freaking out on the Sunday morning shows about down ballot Dems. Is there any proof that conservative Democratic and Independent voters that are uncomfortable with Bernie will go in the voter booth and vote House/Senate Dems out simply because Bernie is on top of the ticket or are they thinking that Bernie depresses them to not even show up to vote? 

 

In the house? No, none. Those wailing about this are grasping at straws. No data point indicates the Democratic majority is going to be threatened. To say a Presidential candidate being the singular factor in flipping the house would be unprecedented would be putting it lightly.

 

In the senate? Hard to quantify because senate races have moved to reflect the presidential partisanship of states much more closely. In general, Democrats' fortunes in the senate races are likely going to closely align with presidential outcomes regardless of candidate. Thinking about individual states:

 

Maine: It's a New England blue state that is familiar with Sanders and has turned on Collins pretty sharply. I don't see why he'd be a big negative there.

 

AZ: Kelly has a lead on McSally despite Trump generally being favored over D presidential candidates because McSally is a bad candidate who AZ already rejected. If any D candidate is consolidating the Latino vote, it's Sanders. If anything he might help here.

 

CO: That shit is flipping regardless.

 

NC: I don't know much about the race other than it's as close as it is because Thillis is uniquely unpopular there, much like Cruz in Texas. Don't know enough to say but it's worth nothing that a garbage candidate for governor vs Abbott didn't stop Beto from outperforming polls. There were plenty of Beto/Abbott voters, so it could stand to reason NC could do the same even if Bernie is a problem there (Is he? No idea).

 

IA/TX: Only flipping in a very lopsided election in favor of Democrats regardless of who's running.

 

Overall I don't see a whole lot telling us a potential Sanders nomination hurts senate races, especially given his performance vs Trump in polls. I'd be interested in seeing evidence he does if it's it there. The house stuff is nonsense.

 

[gmr548 16702]

Off the top of my head - Green New Deal, national rent control, open borders (euphamize it all you want - he's advocating for open borders), raising taxes on almost everyone, and free college.

Certainly fair to disagree on policy. Most Democrats are proposing significant public investment into climate and housing, as well as major changes in immigration policy. Simple math says taxes have to go up even now.

Knowing all this, and assuming you're supporting one of the Democratic field since we're in this thread, why are the rest superior to Trump but Sanders a disaster? The difference between Sanders and most of field is marginal compared to the difference between all/most of them and Donald Trump.

[Celery Man 21098]

1 hour ago, Message Board User said:

What if I think Bernie's policies and proposals would be disastrous for the country? 

Am I still obligated to vote for him even if he's not Trump?

Personally, I give no fucks about the Bernie Bros - they are the other side of the crazy coin (the MAGAts being the other side).  It's his policies I have issues with.

If you think that Bernie in office will be more disastrous than four years of completely unchecked Trump, then yes please don’t vote. If you don’t, hold your nose and vote. It’s kinda important, even if it doesn’t make you feel great.  If more people had done that and voted for Hillary, the world would be a much better place.

[Hank Scorpio 17924]

If Bernie really is a socialist he should let someone else win a caucus every now and then. 

[immortal13 4059]

24 minutes ago, Celery Man said:

If you think that Bernie in office will be more disastrous than four years of completely unchecked Trump, then yes please don’t vote. If you don’t, hold your nose and vote. It’s kinda important, even if it doesn’t make you feel great.  If more people had done that and voted for Hillary, the world would be a much better place.

The economy and unemployment rate say hi 👋

[JimmyJames 12271]

10 minutes ago, immortal13 said:

The economy and unemployment rate say hi 👋

The deficit says go fuck yourself. 

[6th Street 6692]

36 minutes ago, Celery Man said:

If you think that Bernie in office will be more disastrous than four years of completely unchecked Trump, then yes please don’t vote. If you don’t, hold your nose and vote. It’s kinda important, even if it doesn’t make you feel great.  If more people had done that and voted for Hillary, the world would be a much better place.

To be fair if you boys live in Texas, your vote is pretty much worthless anyway since it's going Trump by a wide margin. There are only 4 or 5 states that really decide the election. 

[gmr548 16702]

The economy and unemployment rate say hi

Lol. The economy that has continued on the exact same trend line it did under the Obama administration. It's really funny watching people try to credit Trump as some economic wizard.

[Celery Man 21098]

I’m definitely to the right of Bernie. I think there are some ways in which I just disagree with his views, but also a lot that has scared me off of him based more on his stance. That fear is amplified by his... online community. There are trolls in every camp, Bernie has a Chapo Trap Borg. Fine, that’s not him.

My big fears about Bernie in the primary is that it will fall flat in the general. If Bernie keeps having showings like this, there is not a better general election plan and people like me who have had those fears have failed to understand how widespread and motivated his base is. If you’ve taken the “vote blue no matter who” stance and cast shit towards Bernie folks about voting for Trump or saying they won’t vote for others in the general, and then you now take the stance that you won’t vote for him should he get the nom, you are a hypocrite and the new Gary Johnson voter.

Bernie folks - when this thing keeps rolling, please start convincing folks in the Bernie discord or whatever to focus your trolling efforts on republicans (by which I mean Trump supporters) and start getting limber on the idea of incorporating supporters without needing to assimilate them. I know you’re going to do some teabagging and that is natural, but let’s get it out now and build a coalition.

[immortal13 4059]

1 minute ago, gmr548 said:

Lol. The economy that has continued on the exact same trend line it did under the Obama administration. It's really funny watching people try to credit Trump as some economic wizard.

Lulz

[Michael Knight 13238]

On 2/20/2020 at 9:07 AM, longhornmatt said:

I just want to clarify that Bernie’s plan per his website, and reiterated both in the debate and in bad_teammate’s talking points, is that he wants to give workers a 20% ownership stake.   Not just 20% of the board seats.  He literally wants to take away 20% of the ownership and have that owned by “employees”.   He will do this by forcing companies to dilute shareholders and divert profits to an employee ownership fund until the fund has 20% of the company’s market cap.  
 

https://berniesanders.com/issues/corporate-accountability-and-democracy/

Don’t fall into the trap of letting b_t whitewash this with some nonsense about this just being for board seats.  Bernie’s actual plan is absurd and would outright steal 20% of the publicly traded stock market (and mid to large private companies) from current investors.   

But he’s not a socialist!  No different than FDR!
 

 

stealing from thieves is a time honored tradition

[mchookem 16772]

... and don't flip the fuck out and call for anarchy when yes, Sanders and whatever leadership team he manages to put together in congress has to compromise. it is what it is.

Edited February 23, 2020 by mchookem
addendum to Celery's last paragraph, to clarify

[bolverk 30349]

22 minutes ago, immortal13 said:

The economy and unemployment rate say hi 👋

[mchookem 16772]

yes but those numbers were wrong until January 2017 duh

🤣

[Hank Kingsley 21790]

I am voting for Bernie in the general election.

But due to the binary, burn it all down, strategy employed so far by the Bernie camp and supporters, I doubt I’ll put much energy into trying to convince others to vote for him.  Don’t think there any room for nuance or sincere arguments that will sway people in a Trump vs. Bernie showdown. People’s minds are already made up with those two choices.

It will come down to voter turnout. Hopefully the young people will overwhelm voters who will go to Trump because they believe they’ll need to “save the republic” or some shit. 

 

[MaybeACoordinator 8350]

Just now, Hank Kingsley said:

I am voting for Bernie in the general election.

But due to the binary, burn it all down, strategy employed so far by the Bernie camp and supporters, I doubt I’ll put much energy into trying to convince others to vote for him.  Don’t think there any room for nuance or sincere arguments that will sway people in a Trump vs. Bernie showdown. People’s minds are already made up with those two choices.

It will come down to voter turnout. Hopefully the young people will overwhelm voters who will go to Trump because they believe they’ll need to “save the republic” or some shit. 

 

And people's minds would not be already made up in a Trump vs Warren scenario? Or even Trump vs Biden?

[bad_teammate 13557]

What is the Bernie camp burning down?

[Hank Kingsley 21790]

3 minutes ago, MaybeACoordinator said:

And people's minds would not be already made up in a Trump vs Warren scenario? Or even Trump vs Biden?

There would be a better chance for me to convince people with Warren or Biden

[Hank Kingsley 21790]

To be clear though, I would rather vote for Bernie over Warren and Biden.

Edited February 23, 2020 by Hank Kingsley

[bolverk 30349]

5 minutes ago, MaybeACoordinator said:

And people's minds would not be already made up in a Trump vs Warren scenario? Or even Trump vs Biden?

I get what you're saying, but there's already been more than one poster from the anti-Trump camp express reservations about voting for Bernie. Hopefully, that sentiment will subside as Trump will undoubtedly prove himself again and again to be wholly unfit for office, but I can't stop my brain from multiplying the three or four educated ones here by the millions of unwashed masses out there.

[F250 29202]

12 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

What is the Bernie camp burning down?

Woke White Upper Middle Class Privilege.

[mchookem 16772]

9 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

What is the Bernie camp burning down?

you're one i ignore generally... but come ON. the democratic party (which he's not even a member of), the republicans (which deserve it), the economic, healthcare, and educational structure of the country...a 'revolution' tends to involve some burning down something...

i'm not saying he's not right about some of it, but acting like he doesn't want to burn it down is disingenuous. 

[MaybeACoordinator 8350]

Just now, bolverk said:

I get what you're saying, but there's already been more than one poster from the anti-Trump camp express reservations about voting for Bernie. Hopefully, that sentiment will subside as Trump will undoubtedly prove himself again and again to be wholly unfit for office, but I can't stop my brain from multiplying the three or four educated ones here by the millions of unwashed masses out there.

Kind of oblique to what you are saying, but I really believe that we here in our Texan and educated bubble don't understand the Sanders-Trump voter.

There's this idea that many of them were Bros who voted Trump out of spite.

I believe they are the engaged but disaffected who believed Trump's lies about draining the swamp and helping the little guy. Or that he was at least something new. They don't get that from mainstream Dems, except possibly Warren, and all her hedging in the primaries has not bolstered her appearance as standing on principle the way Bernie's unwavering position does. 

I know you are in contact with Texas rurals, and so am I to a lesser extent. Are they a lost cause in 2020? Probably, because Texas is relatively prosperous and few rural Texans have any experience in voting Dem, ever. That is not the case in the Rust Belt, where a vote for Trump was a first since Reagan, probably. It is not ingrained in them that the only true and proper path to patriotism is the GOP the way it is down here, and if a Dem is actually paying attention, and offering proposals that could benefit them, and not hanging out in wine caves or figuratively blowing Goldman Sachs execs, that candidate could peel off enough of the disaffected but engageds in the Rust Belt to win.

And there's also the Hail Mary route which I am beginning to think just might work in the idea that Sanders awakens the sleeping giant of the Texas Latino vote....

[FORTY NINE TO ZERO 2651]

I’m just not sure I can vote for Bernie. The “taking away” 20% of company ownership and giving it to the workers and total ban on fracking is just too much. 
 

I can understand giving workers a say on the board, but taking private property from US citizens is a step too far. 
 

I’ll Probably Vote dem down the line and leave the president blank. 
 

that said, I’m in texas so my presidential vote doesn’t matter. If I was in a swing state I’d probably reconsider.  

Edited February 23, 2020 by Xian

[bolverk 30349]

7 minutes ago, MaybeACoordinator said:

Kind of oblique to what you are saying, but I really believe that we here in our Texan and educated bubble don't understand the Sanders-Trump voter.

There's this idea that many of them were Bros who voted Trump out of spite.

I believe they are the engaged but disaffected who believed Trump's lies about draining the swamp and helping the little guy. Or that he was at least something new. They don't get that from mainstream Dems, except possibly Warren, and all her hedging in the primaries has not bolstered her appearance as standing on principle the way Bernie's unwavering position does. 

I know you are in contact with Texas rurals, and so am I to a lesser extent. Are they a lost cause in 2020? Probably, because Texas is relatively prosperous and few rural Texans have any experience in voting Dem, ever. That is not the case in the Rust Belt, where a vote for Trump was a first since Reagan, probably. It is not ingrained in them that the only true and proper path to patriotism is the GOP the way it is down here, and if a Dem is actually paying attention, and offering proposals that could benefit them, and not hanging out in wine caves or figuratively blowing Goldman Sachs execs, that candidate could peel off enough of the disaffected but engageds in the Rust Belt to win.

And there's also the Hail Mary route which I am beginning to think just might work in the idea that Sanders awakens the sleeping giant of the Texas Latino vote....

I'm not trying to be oblique. I'm just saying a whole helluva lot of folks who don't like Trump may not stretch themselves far enough to vote for Bernie. And, yeah, I'll be thrilled if Hispanics voted according to their share of the population.

But, here's the deal. Just read Xian's post.

2 minutes ago, Xian said:

I’m just not sure I can vote for Bernie. The “taking away”  ownership of 20% corporations and giving it to the workers and total ban on fracking is just too much. 
 

I can understand giving workers a say on the board, but taking private property from US citizens is a step too far. 
 

I’ll Probably Vote dem down the line and leave the president blank. 
 

that said, I’m in texas so my presidential vote doesn’t matter. If I was in a swing state I’d probably reconsider.  

That's a problem for us.

[Aqua Buddha 14807]

Maybe the government will take away one of Bernie’s houses to pay for Medicare 4 All.

[David Dennison 19556]

2 hours ago, Message Board User said:

Off the top of my head - Green New Deal, national rent control, open borders (euphamize it all you want - he's advocating for open borders), raising taxes on almost everyone, and free college.

Cool. 

How would those things be disastrous?

[MaybeACoordinator 8350]

3 minutes ago, Aqua Buddha said:

Maybe the government will take away one of Bernie’s houses to pay for Medicare 4 All.

Or maybe one of Bloomberg's fish tanks. 

 

[bad_teammate 13557]

2% of stock per year to employees up to 20% required total for $100+M companies... What is the swing voting group that will be scandalized by this?

[gmr548 16702]

18 minutes ago, longhornmatt said:

He’s not the same as the others in the field.  

No, he's not. It's why I am voting for someone else in the primary. But to say he's an unmitigated disaster that would make one vote for Trump, which is what the post I was replying to implied, is curious to me given his stances are unquestionably closer to the rest of the Democratic field than they are to Trump. Essentially, I am hoping to get an explanation on that.

[bad_teammate 13557]

33 minutes ago, mchookem said:

you're one i ignore generally... but come ON. the democratic party (which he's not even a member of), the republicans (which deserve it), the economic, healthcare, and educational structure of the country...a 'revolution' tends to involve some burning down something...

i'm not saying he's not right about some of it, but acting like he doesn't want to burn it down is disingenuous. 

He wants to move the Democratic Party left, he doesn't care about the Republican Party, he wants to improve the economy, improve healthcare, and improve the educational structure. He doesn't want to burn ANY of it down.

That's just melodrama.

[henrygandorf 29227]

can we get him to burn down the republican party?  is that an option?

[6th Street 6692]

28 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

2% of stock per year to employees up to 20% required total for $100+M companies... What is the swing voting group that will be scandalized by this?

LOL you are advocating a govt mandated 2-20% EPS dilution via higher stock comp expense? That will simply be funded by: lower R&D investment, lower headcount, or 2% lower wages. 

[washparkhorn 9974]

Fellow progressives and liberals who have supported other great Democratic candidates:

If I wanted to invite you (and anyone who hasn’t supported Sanders in the past for any reason) to join our movement, what language could I use?

No need for an immediate response. I ask with an open mind and open heart.

[Huckleberry 34689]

8 minutes ago, longhornmatt said:

Everyone with retirement savings in the stock market?

Also, the whole idea that private property rights are passé and the new frontier of American politics will be deciding what percentage of your stuff gets to be redistributed to others without your consent is kind of a big deal.

Your histrionics about the 20% ownership thing with respect to private property rights are a bit funny considering the proposal applies to publicly traded companies. 

These are companies that made an intentional choice to go public instead of stay private at least in part specifically to shield themselves from personal and private liability and risk. So we basically have another situation where large corporate interests want to socialize their risk but privatize their benefit and never vice versa. 

Want to keep your benefit private? Then keep your risk private, too.

Don't get me wrong, I think it's a bad idea. But your argument is weak. 

[Huckleberry 34689]

7 minutes ago, 6th Street said:

LOL you are advocating a govt mandated 2-20% EPS dilution via higher stock comp expense? That will simply be funded by: lower R&D investment, lower headcount, or 2% lower wages. 

See? This is a better argument and it comes from 6th Street for crying out loud. 

[Aqua Buddha 14807]

40 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

2% of stock per year to employees up to 20% required total for $100+M companies... What is the swing voting group that will be scandalized by this?

401k holders.