2020 Democratic Nominee

[GSU&UT 1798]

8 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

Yeah who is this guy's VP going to be!?

lol

God damn, there's a reason he hasn't done but a couple of rallies in Super Tuesday states thus far.

[Brisketexan 105479]

10 minutes ago, washparkhorn said:

You have the power structure, not the people behind you. The people don't have the power structure behind them, you do. A return to normalcy - whatever the fuck that means - is not what most people want.  Unfortunately , they have the audacity of hope. 

Give them hope for a better future, not more of the same. 

 

Great speech.  Really, I believe that you felt it, and the spirit moved within you.  But you and I both know that there is a sizable percentage of Dem voters who have significant concerns about Bernie (I mean, we've already talked about the fact that we know that many Bernie supporters won't ever vote for anyone but Bernie, so no need to keep talking that through).  It's true.  It's a fact.  Shit, I've heard several people say that personally, and while anecdotes aren't evidence, that's sure not inconsistent with the evidence we have before us.

Bernie needs voters outside of his base.  His message (being driven in large part by his base) sure is coming across as "fuck you, we're the good guys, doing everything right, so we don't need you -- get on board or fuck off, it's up to you."  Sounds very principled.  But the math sucks.

Practically speaking, what does Bernie do to appeal to -- or at least sufficiently assuage the discomfort of -- Democratic voters who are closer to the center?  I'm not asking for your platitudes or stump speeches -- what does he actually DO?

[Bruh Man 3160]

I question whether the Iraq War moves the majority of voters still today, but this is a good ad from Bernie. 

 

[gmr548 16617]

I really think it needs to be a woman and/or person of color.  
Warren might work.  I could also see someone like Duckworth.

I voted for Elizabeth Warren but I'd be livid if either of these 80 year olds picks a 70 year old VP.

[Brisketexan 105479]

2 minutes ago, GSU&UT said:

God damn, there's a reason he hasn't done but a couple of rallies in Super Tuesday states thus far.

Okay, this did make me laugh:

[gmr548 16617]

Pete/Pence VP debate would be very colorful.

The nation's first gay VP, hailing from the great state of Indiana, versus Mayor Pete.

[Brisketexan 105479]

1 minute ago, gmr548 said:

I voted for Elizabeth Warren but I'd be livid if either of these 80 year olds picks a 70 year old VP.

To stay on-brand for America, they should each pick a young Slovenian "model."

[washparkhorn 9939]

In the spirit of unity, let me say this:

Even Biden's vomit is better than Bloomberg or Trump. 

['stache 21895]

15 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

Yeah who is this guy's VP going to be!?

lol

Lol. He needs to throw in some insults to handicapped persons, and some middle school nicknames, to be effective. 'cause 'murica

[Dbeasy 15160]

Biden will get chewed up by Trump in the debates, but it won’t matter. The swing voters who’ve decided they’ve had enough of Trump will still vote Biden even if he craps his pants on-stage.

[washparkhorn 9939]

7 minutes ago, longhornmatt said:

This new Washpark strategy to pretend Bernie is polling at 90% and is the unquestioned voice of the people is something else.   What terrible luck for him that this board is so unrepresentative and that all the polls, media, and actual primary results have all been fake news that underestimate Bernie’s support by 70%.

You big dummy (said in a loving voice)  - did you know what you just did is what the Russians did in 2016 to suppress Democratic Party turnout?

Building bridges will be key for Biden. Don't help the Russians. 

 

Edited March 2, 2020 by washparkhorn

[Tuco 5084]

8 minutes ago, washparkhorn said:

Lip service tokenism is not going to work. This electorate is not the dummies of 1992. 

He is going to need a shift from a Republican policy he backs to a progressive policy. For instance - Medicare for All or not cutting SS or erasing his bankruptcy legislation or a instituting a wealth tax or criminal justice reform or walking away from reliance on globalism or the Green New Deal. 

 

A Vice Presidential slot is not tokenism.  Not only is it a seat at the table, it gives the recipient the fast track to the Democratic nomination in 8 years, or sooner, depending on the health of the front runners.  Tokenism is when you have a minority who you include, but they have no real role.  

If you honestly don't believe that have a woman and/or person of color on the ticket would help with women/minority voters, then you need to pay attention.  While Bernie may have improved his standing with blacks (after being Buttigiegish last time), there are a bunch of pissed off women who blame his supporters for derailing Hillary and aren't going to be pleased with him beating Liz.      

In 1992, four white guys were on the ballot. I agree things have changed. 

[Hank Kingsley 21062]

lol 

 

[mchookem 16435]

honestly...i agree with whoever said Biden's issue seemed to be more of a speech thing, like his mouth not keeping up with his mind. not necessarily that he's truly feeble/senile. 

reminds me of elderly parents getting the names of their children confused... they don't actually not know the difference between who is "Denise, Diane and Dennis", their words just get jumbled on the way to their mouth. 

[washparkhorn 9939]

11 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Practically speaking, what does Bernie do to appeal to -- or at least sufficiently assuage the discomfort of -- Democratic voters who are closer to the center?  I'm not asking for your platitudes or stump speeches -- what does he actually DO?

Disaffected voters who think there is no difference between Establishment Republican and Establishment Democratic candidates.

Voters who want the same advantages that their grandparents had. 

[MaybeACoordinator 8350]

 

1 hour ago, ChuckNorrisActionJeans said:

I get that Biden isn't a progressive but by and large, he has the support of African-Americans. Whom the Dems desperately need to turn out....they didn't turn out for Hillary.

There's black turnout and there's black turnout. Obama got the latter. Clinton got the former and Biden might get less than that.  Trump is working hard to message blacks specifically on Biden's shortcomings and there are plenty enough to depress black turnout out in Pittsburgh, Philly, Detroit, Cleveland and Milwaukee. Should the Dems nominate a candidate who offers them something more than "I had Obama's back for eight years"* that might not be the case. 

*That is exactly the pitch he is sending out on black radio right now. Obama gave Joe a ghetto pass, so you have to vote for him. Minus a black running mate I don't think it will be enough to get him over the hump in the Rust Belt swing states. 

[Huckleberry 33163]

15 minutes ago, Bruh Man said:

I question whether the Iraq War moves the majority of voters still today, but this is a good ad from Bernie. 

 

Well I imagine the Iraq War isn't the only bullet in that particular chamber.

[Brisketexan 105479]

6 minutes ago, washparkhorn said:

Disaffected voters who think there is no difference between Establishment Republican and Establishment Democratic candidates.

Voters who want the same advantages that their grandparents had. 

I have asked you several times about how he appeals OUTSIDE of his base....and you never fail to fall right back into the same hole of telling me what Bernie does to appeal to his base.  I get it, his base thinks everyone who votes GOP, and everyone who votes for any Dem but Bernie, are sellouts and functionally identical.  Great, let's stipulate to that.

We should also stipulate to the fact that Bernie can't win the general without getting some of those voters who supported "establishment Democratic" candidates.

So, WHAT DOES HE DO TO APPEAL TO THEM?  (Seriously, I don't know how to emphasize this any more to get your attention -- you have yet to answer the question I'm asking).

[bad_teammate 13226]

Which group outside of his base? Be more specific.

[David Dennison 18993]

Joe Biden waiting to pull that Barack Obama card.

[washparkhorn 9939]

7 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

I have asked you several times about how he appeals OUTSIDE of his base....and you never fail to fall right back into the same hole of telling me what Bernie does to appeal to his base.  I get it, his base thinks everyone who votes GOP, and everyone who votes for any Dem but Bernie, are sellouts and functionally identical.  Great, let's stipulate to that.

We should also stipulate to the fact that Bernie can't win the general without getting some of those voters who supported "establishment Democratic" candidates.

So, WHAT DOES HE DO TO APPEAL TO THEM?  (Seriously, I don't know how to emphasize this any more to get your attention -- you have yet to answer the question I'm asking).

Please define what you consider to be his base and I can go from there. 

How about saving the nation $450 billion a year on healthcare and saving 68,000 lives a year? Does that appeal to Establishment Democrats and Never-Trumper Republicans? I mean - it seem nonsensical to ask, but I am not sure Never Trumpers/Neeracrats care about saving money and lives. Maybe you can help me out on that one. 

[bad_teammate 13226]

 

[henrygandorf 29198]

31 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

To stay on-brand for America, they should each pick a young Slovenian "model."

[Brisketexan 105479]

8 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

Which group outside of his base? Be more specific.

Moderate/centrist/establishment Democrats.  The kind of people who supported Amy or Pete because they came across as safe moderates.  Come on, guys.  You know these voters are a real thing, and they're not an insignificant thing.  I'm asking about the folks represented in these numbers:

Quote

In the past 20 years, the share of Democratic and Democratic-leaning registered voters who describe themselves as “liberal” or “very liberal” has increased from 27% in 2000 to 47% in 2019, according to the Pew Research Center.

A slightly larger share of Democratic voters view themselves as moderate (38%) or conservative (14%).

“I’m a centrist Democrat. I’m not a progressive. I think some of the stuff he talks about is just financially unrealistic,” Steve Nadeau, a Biden fan from Massachusetts, said about Sanders. “It’s too radical.”

So, I'll ask....again....what will Bernie do to appeal to those voters, who he needs in order to beat Trump?

[washparkhorn 9939]

Just now, Brisketexan said:

Moderate/centrist/establishment Democrats.  The kind of people who supported Amy or Pete because they came across as safe moderates.  Come on, guys.  You know these voters are a real thing, and they're not an insignificant thing.  I'm asking about the folks represented in these numbers:

So, I'll ask....again....what will Bernie do to appeal to those voters, who he needs in order to beat Trump?

What are their issues?  What do they stand for? We all want Trump gone. What do they want to move the country forward? Specific issues - not the horserace. 

[Brisketexan 105479]

4 minutes ago, washparkhorn said:

Please define what you consider to be his base and I can go from there. 

How about saving the nation $450 billion a year on healthcare and saving 68,000 lives a year? Does that appeal to Establishment Democrats and Never-Trumper Republicans? I mean - it seem nonsensical to ask, but I am not sure Never Trumpers/Neeracrats care about saving money and lives. Maybe you can help me out on that one. 

Sneer at them all you want.  That will probably be an excellent strategy, sure to garner their support.  

But to drill down on just your issue, what about the not-insignificant percentage of Democratic voters who favor a public option, but also want the ability to add supplemental private insurance to overlap and provide additional benefits for the same conditions covered by the public option?  Tell them they're stupid poopyheads, who clearly don't have the Giant Brain skills of Bernie and the Bernsters?  Because again, smug condescension is a BRILLIANT marketing plan.

[mchookem 16435]

narrator: smug condescension did not work for Hillary

[Hank Kingsley 21062]

I was a Bernie voter in 2016. I like Bernie. I dislike the establishment. 

2020 comes along, I still like Bernie. But I preferred Pete Buttigieg. Then I got to watch the left try to systematically destroy his candidacy. Progressive journalists writing hit piece after hit piece. Progressive media personalities that I've always liked call Pete a rat, CIA, etc. Progressive groups constantly protesting his events. Being honest, it upset me. It felt like gaslighting and really soured me on the progressive movement in 2020. It's human nature to reject someone that makes you feel like a piece of shit, but I'm trying to overlook the shittiness.

I've always planned on voting for Bernie if/when Pete dropped out. I'm 43 years old with a 2.5 year old son. I consider myself a progressive. I've always wanted my vote to go towards the younger generation's interests, not mine. But I have real trepidation with where the Bernie movement has been heading. 

So tomorrow, I'll vote for Bernie. But I'm not particularly happy about it. Which sucks.

 

 

[bad_teammate 13226]

1 minute ago, Brisketexan said:

Moderate/centrist/establishment Democrats.

- Victory over Donald Trump
- Filibuster reform
- A reformed Supreme Court that will protect women's rights
- An invigorated youth movement (important for building future power)
- An invigorated union and working class movement (vital for an ascendant Democratic Party)
- A shifting of the overton window that makes your own personal center-left agenda look safer to people to your right
- A healthier and more well-educated population of employees
- No more healthcare provision concerns (either for yourself as an individual or for your employees as a business owner)
- An invigorated and loyal young Latino voting base (INSANELY important)
- A candidate who can speak clearly and intelligently to the world and nation despite his advanced age
- An assurance that we will not be engaging in unnecessary, jingoistic wars abroad
- An assurance that the administration will feature ZERO corruption, ZERO scandals, ZERO payola, and absolute ethical purity
- An assurance that the president himself will introduce ZERO family drama and will be delightfully boring in his conduct

[washparkhorn 9939]

1 minute ago, Brisketexan said:

Sneer at them all you want.  That will probably be an excellent strategy, sure to garner their support.  

But to drill down on just your issue, what about the not-insignificant percentage of Democratic voters who favor a public option, but also want the ability to add supplemental private insurance to overlap and provide additional benefits for the same conditions covered by the public option?  Tell them they're stupid poopyheads, who clearly don't have the Giant Brain skills of Bernie and the Bernsters?  Because again, smug condescension is a BRILLIANT marketing plan.

I am going to sneer at them. They created Trump in the belief he would be easiest to beat and then slept on campaigning and got beat. Not you, of course, but the strategists who committed political malpractice.

What additional benefits do they want that would not be covered by Medicare for All?

[Brisketexan 105479]

1 minute ago, washparkhorn said:

What are their issues?  What do they stand for? We all want Trump gone. What do they want to move the country forward? Specific issues - not the horserace. 

Oh for fuck's sake stop playing stupid.  Seriously, just fucking stop.  You goddamned well know that millions of voters would really like a candidate who appoints sane, qualified judges to the bench, who want to restore institutions like the State Department to functionality, who don't want the White House to be run as a criminal enterprise, who want a moderated tax policy (fuck the tax cuts for the rich, but also fuck significantly higher taxes) -- we could go on for fucking hours, you know what these issues are.  There's a country mile of green space between Trump and Bernie -- go to just the left of center, and we're talking about what those folks believe in.

I'm aware that you think they aren't sufficiently progressive/ambitious to "move this country forward."  I'm not asking THEM to persuade YOU to think their way -- I'm asking -- fucking AGAIN -- how Bernie will appeal to them.

The lack of any answer (seriously, ANY ANSWER) speaks volumes.

[bad_teammate 13226]

1 minute ago, Hank Kingsley said:

Progressive media personalities that I've always liked call Pete a rat, CIA, etc. Progressive groups constantly protesting his events. Being honest, it upset me. It felt like gaslighting and really soured me on the progressive movement in 2020. It's human nature to reject someone that makes you feel like a piece of shit, but I'm trying to overlook the shittiness.

And this is fair, but does this recent turn of events not give you some insight into WHY they were doing that?

I'm not asking you to put on a PETE THE RAT t-shirt (the only Pete related shirt I own is his first-issued "BOOT EDGE EDGE" shirt), but surely this gives you a different lens.

[bad_teammate 13226]

1 minute ago, Brisketexan said:

The lack of any answer (seriously, ANY ANSWER) speaks volumes.

Scroll up.

[Brisketexan 105479]

1 minute ago, washparkhorn said:

I am going to sneer at them. They created Trump in the belief he would be easiest to beat and then slept on campaigning and got beat. Not you, of course, but the strategists who committed political malpractice.

What additional benefits do they want that would not be covered by Medicare for All?

Oh....then you're arguing against a straw man who you are REALLY pissed at.  Great.  Fuck that straw man, burn him.

I'm not talking about political strategists.  I'm talking about actual voters.  How do you appeal to THEM?

I have never asked the same question this many times on this board only to have people refuse to answer -- well, Trumpkins do it.  You're making the Trumpkin play.  That has to feel good.

[David Dennison 18993]

2 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Oh for fuck's sake stop playing stupid.  Seriously, just fucking stop.  You goddamned well know that millions of voters would really like a candidate who appoints sane, qualified judges to the bench, who want to restore institutions like the State Department to functionality, who don't want the White House to be run as a criminal enterprise, who want a moderated tax policy (fuck the tax cuts for the rich, but also fuck significantly higher taxes) -- we could go on for fucking hours, you know what these issues are.  There's a country mile of green space between Trump and Bernie -- go to just the left of center, and we're talking about what those folks believe in.

I'm aware that you think they aren't sufficiently progressive/ambitious to "move this country forward."  I'm not asking THEM to persuade YOU to think their way -- I'm asking -- fucking AGAIN -- how Bernie will appeal to them.

The lack of any answer (seriously, ANY ANSWER) speaks volumes.

Free stuff?

[Brisketexan 105479]

1 minute ago, bad_teammate said:

Scroll up.

See it.  Thanks for the answer.  And it's a decent one.

[bad_teammate 13226]

nm - THIS IS MOVING SO FAST

Edited March 2, 2020 by bad_teammate

[ChiTownDoc 21183]

38 minutes ago, Dbeasy said:

Biden will get chewed up by Trump in the debates, but it won’t matter. The swing voters who’ve decided they’ve had enough of Trump will still vote Biden even if he craps his pants on-stage.

If he craps his pants he may pick up some of the staunch trump supporters.  "Hey, I shit my pants too!"

[Hank Kingsley 21062]

Just now, bad_teammate said:

And this is fair, but does this recent turn of events not give you some insight into WHY they were doing that?

No, it doesn't. Pete endorsing Biden is not an endorsement of Biden's policies or the establishment. IMO it's a rejection of the divisiveness of Bernie's movement at a critical juncture in our country's history. 

 

[Chuckie Finster 22759]

10 minutes ago, washparkhorn said:

What are their issues?  What do they stand for? We all want Trump gone. What do they want to move the country forward? Specific issues - not the horserace. 

I know this is hard to believe, but there are a shit ton of people who don't spend all day on college football message boards arguing about politics.  Their lives are going okay and they don't want a giant revolution, but they're getting pretty tired of Trump and would prefer if he was gone.  Assuming that every single person has "issues" that they obsess over as much as we do is fallacy #1. 

I'm not saying they are correct nor am I even saying you need to respect their point of view, but there's A LOT of them and their single vote counts just as much as the guy who attends political rallies every weekend.  Purposefully alienating them is a poor strategy.

Edited March 2, 2020 by Chuckie Finster

[6th Street 6509]

Just now, ChiTownDoc said:

If he craps his pants he may pick up some of the staunch trump supporters.  "Hey, I shit my pants too!"

He shits his pants just like us!

[ChiTownDoc 21183]

3 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

Scroll up.

Shit, I missed it too.  Shit is moving at the speed of light.  And I do mean shit. 

['stache 21895]

3 minutes ago, 6th Street said:

He shits his pants just like us!

Wafflestomp 2020!

[bad_teammate 13226]

If your primary concern is beating Trump then you should vote for Bernie because his brain isn't melting out of his head, he can speak coherently, he generates massive enthusiasm that isn't forced through the media or ancient establishment goons, and he polls just as well (if not better) in head-to-heads against Trump as Biden does.

[washparkhorn 9939]

9 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Oh for fuck's sake stop playing stupid.  Seriously, just fucking stop.  You goddamned well know that millions of voters would really like a candidate who appoints sane, qualified judges to the bench, who want to restore institutions like the State Department to functionality, who don't want the White House to be run as a criminal enterprise, who want a moderated tax policy (fuck the tax cuts for the rich, but also fuck significantly higher taxes) -- we could go on for fucking hours, you know what these issues are.  There's a country mile of green space between Trump and Bernie -- go to just the left of center, and we're talking about what those folks believe in.

I'm aware that you think they aren't sufficiently progressive/ambitious to "move this country forward."  I'm not asking THEM to persuade YOU to think their way -- I'm asking -- fucking AGAIN -- how Bernie will appeal to them.

The lack of any answer (seriously, ANY ANSWER) speaks volumes.

It is not playing around. You need to define your question. It is vague beyond belief. You know that.

Judges - Bernie will appoint magnificent judges. He can change the 5th Circuit the way Trump reengineered the 9th Circuit. 

Institutions - Sanders policies rely on robust institutions and trust in these institutions. 

State Department - State Department is the key to his foreign policy. We cannot do that without dedicated officials who know the President has their backs. 

Criminal Enterprise - Sanders does not rely on corruption. Check his record. He is a reformer. Hence, the opposition.

Tax Policy - A return to pre-late 70's -80's tax policy is the hallmark of his argument against neoliberal (libertarian) economic policies. They will be progressive, but aimed more at the widening wealth inequality (which resulted from neoliberal tax policy).

 

Edited March 2, 2020 by washparkhorn

[mchookem 16435]

5 minutes ago, Chuckie Finster said:

I know this is hard to believe, but there are a shit ton of people who don't spend all day on college football message boards arguing about politics.  Their lives are going okay and they don't want a giant revolution, but they're getting pretty tired of Trump and would prefer if he was gone.  Assuming that every single person has "issues" that they obsess over as much as we do is fallacy #1. 

I'm not saying they are correct nor am I even saying you need to respect their point of view, but there's A LOT of them and their single vote counts just as much as the guy who attends political rallies every weekend.  

excellent point

i would guess there are millions of these people that don't know anything about any of the behind the scenes drama and infighting and social media crap to this point and are basically waiting for the nominee to be crowned. 

and a huge portion of those folks are probably going to say 'Biden? cool. those Joe/Obama memes were so funny. sigh...i miss Obama'... and vote based on that. 

[bad_teammate 13226]

Bernie's plan to reform the filibuster is simple and effective.

Instead of doing away with it entirely, which would be a very big deal, he proposes to simply return to the old speaking filibuster where someone with a bug up their ass can speak until they pass out, Mr. Smith Goes to Washington style, and then a simple majority gets to vote and pass after the grandstanding.

The minority opposition gets its moment in the sun and the majority gets to vote.

[ChiTownDoc 21183]

1 minute ago, mchookem said:

excellent point

i would guess there are millions of these people that don't know anything about any of the behind the scenes drama and infighting and social media crap to this point and are basically waiting for the nominee to be crowned. 

and a huge portion of those folks are probably going to say 'Biden? cool. those Joe/Obama memes were so funny. sigh...i miss Obama'... and vote based on that. 

And an even larger number that would be like, ‘trump sucks but no need to overreact and elect a socialist’.  Not saying those people are right but there’s a LOT of them out there.  

[David Dennison 18993]

1 minute ago, bad_teammate said:

Bernie's plan to reform the filibuster is simple and effective.

Instead of doing away with it entirely, which would be a very big deal, he proposes to simply return to the old speaking filibuster where someone with a bug up their ass can speak until they pass out, Mr. Smith Goes to Washington style, and then a simple majority gets to vote and pass after the grandstanding.

The minority opposition gets its moment in the sun and the majority gets to vote.

Thank you, Mr. President. We'll take it under advisement.

[Brisketexan 105479]

4 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

If your primary concern is beating Trump then you should vote for Bernie because his brain isn't melting out of his head, he can speak coherently, he generates massive enthusiasm that isn't forced through the media or ancient establishment goons, and he polls just as well (if not better) in head-to-heads against Trump as Biden does.

Don't mistake enthusiasm for numbers.  Reminds me of the old Jerry Garcia statement about the Dead:

“We're like licorice. Not everybody likes licorice, but the people who like licorice really like licorice.”

It all comes down to the head-to-head polling v. Trump, and as you note, he has performed well in the polling.  But lots of voters are nervous about whether that will really translate to support come election day (Hillary polled well - we the people have been burned on this stove before).

Just now, ChiTownDoc said:

And an even larger number that would be like, ‘trump sucks but no need to overreact and elect a socialist’.  Not saying those people are right but there’s a LOT of them out there.  

There are.  Getting those people comfortable with supporting Bernie is going to be a big, and important, job.  And Bernie himself is going to have to do the heavy lifting.