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2020 Democratic Nominee

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Bozo_Casanova

Bozo_Casanova 26773

Posted
Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

Ergo, Joe Biden is the best candidate.

That's true. He's the best the Democrats could do. Hopefully he chooses Kamala Harris as his VP nominee. I'm less excited about Whitmer but she would be OK too. 

Edited by Bozo_Casanova
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Huckleberry
Huckleberry

No it doesn't, this is absurd selfishness on a grand scale. Nobody is getting punished. My wife and I paid off our student loans, and you know what I think about younger people or even those in our ge

henrygandorf
henrygandorf

i’ve really enjoyed the 900 posts from bt explaining how bernie people aren’t aggressive, obsessive, and very-online.  truly a learning experience. 

Bill Clinton
Bill Clinton

3rd or 4th thread but whos counting.  Name recognition and ability to collect money is most important to the Democratic Party. They aren't trying to win 2020, they are trying to rebuild and colle

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Chooky

Chooky 13337

Posted
Posted

Even with a gravy-brained Joe Biden, the choice has never been more clear. Uh ... WISCONSIN.

But, nah, get as self righteous as a Midland First Baptist preacher and hold out for that truly transcendent candidate who checks all of your finger-wagging boxes and watch a low rent, red state minority rule from underneath a rock for two more generations. 

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UpperWestside

UpperWestside 6262

Posted
Posted
2 minutes ago, Chooky said:

But, nah, get as self righteous as a Midland First Baptist preacher and hold out for that truly transcendent candidate who checks all of your finger-wagging boxes and watch a low rent, red state minority rule from underneath a rock for two more generations. 

If there are adults at this point who aren't going to cast a vote for Biden because their candidate isn't the nominee they don't deserve to have a rock to go live under.

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Ghost of LL

Ghost of LL 15664

Posted
Posted
30 minutes ago, UDontKnow said:

Just spitballin' here, but maybe a woman of minority descent would be helpful. Not AOC and her group because they would be too polarizing. For that matter, I think Kamala Harris would be harmful towards the effort. Maybe Stacey Abrams is the only  VP candidate that makes sense.

I called my shot on this six weeks ago.  It's going to be Michelle.

On 4/7/2020 at 8:43 AM, bad_teammate said:

 

 


Biden went on TV to tell people to wash their hands and go out today.

Sanders is making no effort to get his voters out.

#Leadershipe530518a0d9653fd4db4fecc1973fe34.jpge79a781d8bb4ff271c61ffcc9c7150b7.jpg

 

Bernie staying in until today--i.e., before the votes in Wisconsin are announced--tells me that he kept an active primary going to boost Democratic turnout in Wisconsin.  And that is hugely important for that state supreme court race.

If that was his thought process--and I can't think of an alternative explanation--then Bernie is being a lot better team player than I previously gave him credit for.  And I hope Biden and the Party remember that later on.

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bad_teammate

bad_teammate 13479

Posted
Posted
50 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

It's weird watching people argue with BT, given that his argument pretty consistently boils down to "we should offer people something that gets them excited to vote." That seems pretty obviously true.

They are overwhelmed by their class interests but sublimate that uglier motivation into wobbly notions of pragmatism and tone.

If someone is the in the center/center-left, it is personally offensive when someone makes them feel conservative. I think that explains a lot of the gut emotional reaction I get from so many guys here who see themselves as morally superior to their conservative friends and family because they're the farthest left person at the cookout.

43 minutes ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

Of course, but the problem is that Bernie and really the whole progressive maximalist agenda doesn't get a majority of Democrats excited, because the Democratic party is and always has been and will be a coalition of discrete interests, not an exclusionary ideological coalition. 

The "progressive maximalist agenda" is broadly popular. It is not the masses that are alienated by progressivism, it's the power players and traditionalists.

Biden didn't win this on policy, he won this on being Obama's friend. That is it.

46 minutes ago, UDontKnow said:

A Republic Congress under Obama's second term had no role in wealth disparity?

They absolutely did.

Here's the thing: The Democrats lost elections that made a Republican Congress a possibility.

"We need a better defense."
- "But they've got Tom Brady!"
"Yes... which is why we need a better defense."

The Republicans' power in Congress is MUCH greater than it should be based on demographics and the policy beliefs of Americans. And it's not an inevitability based on geographics. If you look at the 2008 election you can see it is imminently possible for the Democrats to get a supermajority in Congress and the White House with the right candidate and platform. And he did it with a platform that was progressive (for the time) and a message that rejected the status quo and the "normal".

And we can talk about how he had a unique personal charisma, and that's important, but we have lessons to learn from his '08 victory. Bernie Sanders has negative charisma, middling-to-poor public speaking skills, is 400,000 years old, he stoops, is not terribly attractive, and he STILL has 25-30% of the party locked down even in defeat. Put someone with even a modicum of charm and youth on that same platform and we'll get our supermajorities.

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TXSG8R

TXSG8R 3362

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31 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

Also, AOC is ineligible to be VP because of her age.

Even if she was, AOC would be a mistake.  She has taken over as the focus of the right's woman rage from Hillary.  Shes a hyper-polarized figure and would be a boat anchor on the ticket.  

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Pig Bellmont

Pig Bellmont 8867

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Posted
1 hour ago, wildcat09 said:

In retrospect, a campaign strategy that depended on getting ~30% of the vote while every other candidate stayed in to split the rest was...not very smart. Winning Nevada and then telling that 70% that they couldn't stop you was especially stupid.

Every campaign has a million different things that you can second guess. Bernie deserves a lot of credit for putting together a huge grassroots campaign that had incredible enthusiastic support, and he faced some significant structural hurdles. But goddamn did he fuck up after Nevada. He should've been working to broaden his appeal to the rest of the party at that point and instead he basically told them to get fucked.

He never ran as a front runner or coalition builder even when he was leading the polls. Dems have always been a big tent and there was no attempt by the campaign to persuade anyone. It was get on board or get fucked. 

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Storm the Field

Storm the Field 5359

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LOL, Texags is 100% convinced that now that Bernie is out of the way, Biden will either die before the convention or drop out for health reasons b/c he's too riddled with dementia to even be on stage with Trump. DNC willing to go so far as  having him offed to avoid the embarrassment. Either Cuomo or whoever the DNC picks to be his running mate is the "real" candidate.

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Biff Tannen

Biff Tannen 46060

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Just now, Storm the Field said:

LOL, Texags is 100% convinced that now that Bernie is out of the way, Biden will either die before the convention or drop out for health reasons b/c he's too riddled with dementia to even be on stage with Trump. DNC willing to go so far as  having him offed to avoid the embarrassment. Either Cuomo or whoever the DNC picks to be his running mate is the "real" candidate.

I feel like they said the same thing about Hillary.  That she was on death's doorstep the entire time.  Last I checked, she's still alive and coherent.

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Pig Bellmont

Pig Bellmont 8867

Posted
Posted
3 minutes ago, Storm the Field said:

LOL, Texags is 100% convinced that now that Bernie is out of the way, Biden will either die before the convention or drop out for health reasons b/c he's too riddled with dementia to even be on stage with Trump. DNC willing to go so far as  having him offed to avoid the embarrassment. Either Cuomo or whoever the DNC picks to be his running mate is the "real" candidate.

This narrative will bite them in the ass

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Hank Kingsley

Hank Kingsley 21598

Posted
Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, wildcat09 said:

It's weird watching people argue with BT, given that his argument pretty consistently boils down to "we should offer people something that gets them excited to vote." That seems pretty obviously true.

No one is arguing otherwise. But when the particular argument is "Bernie gets more people excited than Joe", and then Biden dominates him in the primary while getting higher turnout compared to '16, what exactly is the point?  That theoretical argument has been proven factually incorrect. 

 

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bad_teammate

bad_teammate 13479

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10 minutes ago, Hank Kingsley said:

No one is arguing otherwise.

The attitude coming from people is, "Fuck these people, it's pointless to even talk to them." Read the posts.

More importantly, look at the complete and total lack of enthusiasm and grassroots organizing on the Biden side.

Quote

But when the particular argument is "Bernie gets more people excited than Joe", and then Biden dominates him in the primary while getting higher turnout compared to '16, what exactly is the point?  That theoretical argument has been proven factually incorrect. 

Are you responding to someone making that argument here or in your head?

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Bama Chick

Bama Chick 28596

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If there are adults at this point who aren't going to cast a vote for Biden because their candidate isn't the nominee they don't deserve to have a rock to go live under.

I’m beginning to believe these Bernie folks and “true progressives” aren’t all that concerned about others; if they don’t get their way then they revert to their most cherished value - being a contrarian dickhole.
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bad_teammate

bad_teammate 13479

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When someone says "I'm beginning to think" what they mean is, "This is what I've always believed but I'm presenting it as if it's not just a reinforcement of my same-old beliefs through selective reading and reasoning."

14 minutes ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

lol no

The exit polling from states that have voted in the primary so far show resounding support for government-run single-payer healthcare and strong positivity for "socialism" as a general concept.

11 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

That attitude would change in a hurry if those folks bothered to show up en masse and vote. 

Sounds like a lazy political philosophy that's OK with constantly losing both electorally and, more significantly, in terms of enacted policy.

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Hank Kingsley

Hank Kingsley 21598

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12 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

More importantly, look at the complete and total lack of enthusiasm and grassroots organizing on the Biden side.

It's incredible to watch Biden completely dominate Bernie in the primary over the last month - with high voter turnout - and then to see your and other Berners citing far less meaningful arguments for why he's the weaker candidate.

I hated the idea of Biden as the nominee. I've been arguing against him on this board for the ENTIRE primary and thought he was fucked after NH. You and I generally agree about all the reasons why Joe sucks. We've been on the same page. The only difference over the last few weeks is I'm accepting reality. The voters have spoken. 

At some point we have to start questioning how much grassroots organizing mattered in this particular primary. Bernie world boasted about his millions of volunteers and door knockers in the 4 early states, and he didn't really see great returns in Iowa, NH, and SC. Biden was low on funds yet still dominated later primary states where his campaign barely had a footprint. 

I think grassroots organizing is awesome/important and definitely a sign of excitement, but it didn't really transfer to the polls this year.  Pete had a really strong organization in Iowa and NH which helped his results, but he faded quickly after. Warren's "grassroots" campaign completely fizzled at the polls. Bernie had the best organization and most excitement, and it deflated after Super Tuesday.  The candidate with arguably the shittiest organization cruised to victory over the last month.

I think (hope?) that the grassroots failure at the polls was an anomaly in 2020 because people just want to dump Trump, and not the future of primaries moving forward.

 

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bad_teammate

bad_teammate 13479

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Posted
2 minutes ago, Hank Kingsley said:

It's incredible to watch Biden completely dominate Bernie in the primary over the last month - with high voter turnout - and then to see your and other Berners citing far less meaningful arguments for why he's the weaker candidate.

Why are you still hung up on arguments from a month ago?

Go to a therapy session. Go do an ayahausca journey with a shaman. Exorcise the demons of Bernie Sanders and his bros haunting your dreams.

Quote

I hated the idea of Biden as the nominee. I've been arguing against him on this board for the ENTIRE primary and thought he was fucked after NH. You and I generally agree about all the reasons why Joe sucks. We've been on the same page. The only difference over the last few weeks is I'm accepting reality. The voters have spoken. 

What reality have I not accepted? Be specific.

I called this race functionally over on the evening of Super Tuesday.

Quote

I think grassroots organizing is awesome/important and definitely a sign of excitement, but it didn't really transfer to the polls this year.  Pete had a really strong organization in Iowa and NH which helped his results, but he faded quickly after.

These two sentences are in direct conflict with each other. Pete did really well in states where he had massive organizing but disappeared in states where he didn't. That should demonstrate to you the importance of organizing.

Biden won because he had universal name recognition and is riding Obama's very popular coattails and is running in a primary where the voterbase all wishes they could have Obama back. He didn't win because of anything special about him as a personality or because of an attractive policy platform.

In the general, he will need to win independent voters who don't necessary yearn for the days of Obama. He might even have to win over people who went from Obama to Trump. Not only that, but he will need actual voter turnout. Is he going to do that by telling immigration activists to vote for Trump and telling young people their concerns are a joke and not worth taking seriously? Is their campaign going to do that by generating zero enthusiasm among people below 50?

I know you're completely obsessed with Bernie Sanders and his bros and you think I'm sneaking in some pro-Bernie argument, but that's your problem, not mine. You need to let it go.

You and I agree that Joe needs to win. I'm thinking about how to do that. You're just whining and boxing shadows.

1 minute ago, David Dennison said:

In this country, it absolutely is. You can't accomplish anything if you don't have power.

Do you somehow get power if you vote for someone? If so, how does that manifest?

Joe Biden has spent this campaign mocking the concerns of young people and telling immigration activists to vote for Donald Trump. What power are they going to get in a Biden presidency?

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Hank Kingsley

Hank Kingsley 21598

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2 hours ago, bad_teammate said:

It is not the masses that are alienated by progressivism, it's the power players and traditionalists.

100% agree with this point. The masses were alienated by the rhetoric and the way Bernie progressivism was presented (particularly in this primary), not progressivism itself. 

To me this was the downfall of Bernie as a presidential candidate, and it's frustrating. Sanders basically had 100% name recognition starting this primary. Everyone knew where he stood, what he believed in, that he's been consistent and authentic his entire professional life. And instead of using that goodwill to work on building a broad coalition, he and his campaign decided to ratchet up the "revolution" and continue fighting and demonizing the Democratic Party. It's a great way to create excitement with young people, and also a great way to lose an election. 

 

 

 

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bad_teammate

bad_teammate 13479

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Posted
1 minute ago, Hank Kingsley said:

The masses were alienated by the rhetoric and the way Bernie progressivism was presented (particularly in this primary), not progressivism itself. 

If this was true, we would've seen Bernie become unfavorable among Democratic voters. Yet he wasn't.

People liked Bernie, they just liked Obama more.

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bad_teammate

bad_teammate 13479

Posted
Posted

Or third party or not voting.

Then we can lose, and when Trump is being inaugurated for a second time we can feel very smug about how we're better people than all those dumbasses who didn't vote correctly. Because we're so comfortable and safe there are no actual consequences for this beyond self-assurance of our ego and social posturing.

HELL YEAH!

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Hank Scorpio

Hank Scorpio 17924

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Posted

I don’t recognize Bernie’s decision to drop out. I will continue to harass liberals, women, POCs, and everyone else he has commanded me to fight. I’m going to be that Japanese soldier on a deserted island shooting tourists because the war is still going for me. 

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Hank Kingsley

Hank Kingsley 21598

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10 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

Or third party or not voting.

Then we can lose, and when Trump is being inaugurated for a second time we can feel very smug about how we're better people than all those dumbasses who didn't vote correctly. Because we're so comfortable and safe there are no actual consequences for this beyond self-assurance of our ego and social posturing.

HELL YEAH!

giphy.gif

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Bozo_Casanova

Bozo_Casanova 26773

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11 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

Or third party or not voting.

Then we can lose, and when Trump is being inaugurated for a second time we can feel very smug about how we're better people than all those dumbasses who didn't vote correctly. Because we're so comfortable and safe there are no actual consequences for this beyond self-assurance of our ego and social posturing.

HELL YEAH!

Again, I like Bernie Sanders a lot and I think he's a crucial voice despite disagreeing with him about a range of issues, particularly those where he is fundamentally aligned with the president, like trade, debt, and fiscal reality.
If Bernie Sanders were a better candidate with a stronger record and positions that pulled in a broader coalition he would be the nominee. But he didn't, so he isn't.

 

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GoldAppleCorps

GoldAppleCorps 625

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Posted

At some point, we all lost sight of the fact that elections are (supposed to) be won by convincing voters to vote for your issue. They aren't sports events where we can talk crap to anyone not wearing out team colors since it won't affect the outcome.

From the Dem perspective, Bernie Sanders never had enough support to be the nominee. It was largely unfortunate that a few early state contests were stacked with his favored demographic. It left the impression that he was poised to shock the nation with surprise wins as he did in 2016. That was never the case. The Democrat voters simply did not see things his way nationally to any great degree.

HOWEVER...

I mentioned that elections are won through votes. While Sanders only ever commanded about 35% of Democrat voting base, no one is foolish enough to believe that Joe Biden can win the general election with only 65% of Democrat support voting for him. That means voters who preferred Sanders are critical to Democratic hopes in the fall. Making fun, insulting, or demeaning their zeal is stupid, counterproductive, and ultimately fatal. They and their ideals are the future of the Democratic Party.

This is politics. You just never get everything you want. Change never goes as fast as you want. You cut deals and accept compromise. Joe Biden has been in the game long enough to understand this. His platform will include Sanders ideals that he thinks are realistically attainable (not everything is - once again, it's politics, and nobody gets everything).

 

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AeroHorn

AeroHorn 793

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Posted
2 minutes ago, Pancho said:

Hey poli sci nerds, could Biden pick Obama as VP?

is there some shady language in the constitution about this?  Love to hear your thots.

And then Biden fakes cramps, a la LSU style, and watch Trumpets explode? 

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Biff Tannen

Biff Tannen 46060

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Posted
1 hour ago, Chuckie Finster said:

I just went down a rabbit hole of Bernie fans on Twitter who are saying they won't vote for Biden because the DNC closed Wisconsin polling stations and forced the election to be held yesterday.  We might be fucked.

They think the DNC did it?  That's bizarro world man.  Sweet christ.

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