2020 Democratic Nominee

[henrygandorf 29,189]

9 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

completely uncritical

 

11 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

healthy debate

so are we talking about having a healthy, critical debate, or are we posting tweets with trimmed 15 second videos that show an old man stuttering?

[JimmyJames 12,271]

3 hours ago, bad_teammate said:

Oh no, a group of center-right guys on the Internet don't like me.

You’re still here? Why?

[bad_teammate 13,192]

8 minutes ago, henrygandorf said:

so are we talking about having a healthy, critical debate, or are we posting tweets with trimmed 15 second videos that show an old man stuttering?

I think the former is more useful than the latter, though the latter actually is relevant and means something when it's not just a one-off and is actually part of an obvious pattern. We have, after all, spent the last 4 years talking about how important mental health and strength are to the office.

As I've said a few times, if someone starts a "Biden 2020 - Booster-talk Only" thread I promise to never say anything critical in it.

2 minutes ago, JimmyJames said:

You’re still here? Why?

You're still talking to me? Why?

[JimmyJames 12,271]

1 minute ago, bad_teammate said:

I think the former is more useful than the latter, though the latter actually is relevant and means something when it's not just a one-off and is actually part of an obvious pattern. We have, after all, spent the last 4 years talking about how important mental health and strength are to the office.

As I've said a few times, if someone starts a "Biden 2020 - Booster-talk Only" thread I promise to never say anything critical in it.

You're still talking to me? Why?

I guess that’s a good question.

[BradInATX 9,208]

38 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

If we had compulsory voting in America, this might be logical. But we don't, so it's not.

It's exceedingly easy for Joe Biden to earn my vote. It's impossible for Trump to earn my vote. You know this, but you've got to find reasons to argue with me, so even if I promised to vote for Joe no matter what, you'd find a new thing.

Abstaining as a "progressive" is giving Trump half of a vote. Math out front shoulda told you.

[bad_teammate 13,192]

1 minute ago, BradInATX said:

Abstaining as a "progressive" is giving Trump half of a vote. Math out front shoulda told you.

Who gets the other half?

lol stop trying to do logic, Republican, it's not your forte

[BradInATX 9,208]

1 minute ago, bad_teammate said:

Who gets the other half?

My guess would be your wife.

[Bama Chick 28,596]

Anyone who wants Trump out of office and believes in progressive policies needs to do two things -

 

Until Election Day - support Joe Biden. That means everything from being full blown Biden Stan to just shutting the fuck up until the first Tuesday in November and casting your vote.

 

After Election Day - become a huge pain in the ass for the Biden Administration and use your voice to keep pushing him left.

 

That’s it.

[Chuckie Finster 22,694]

We’ve lost control of the car. Turn the wheel, and we will run off the road and probably total the car, but odds are the injuries will be minimal. Do nothing, and we plow into a group of people. Meanwhile, b_t thinks he is being helpful by yelling “CAR CRASHES ARE BAD!!!” from the backseat.

[bad_teammate 13,192]

And the rest of you are also in the backseat with me yelling equally irrelevant shit. None of us are at the wheel at all and the two options in the front of the car are both completely wasted drunks. That's the actual situation.

Why would anyone wait until AFTER election day to push Biden left? It makes no fucking sense at all. This is the time you actually have worth to his campaign as a voter. This is when outside coalitions might actually attract his campaign's attention.

He has zero reason to listen to anyone who says, "I'll do whatever you want whenever you want!"

[JustBecause 112]

On 4/10/2020 at 3:49 PM, bad_teammate said:

Hell no to Whitmer or any other stooge of private health speculation.
 

I thought ACA was going to bend the “cost curve”

[Incredulity 11,657]

14 minutes ago, JustBecause said:

I thought ACA was going to bend the “cost curve”

The ACA was never close to implemented.  And no, not because of Republicans.  It wasn’t implemented by the actions of Barack’s own administration.

[David Dennison 18,851]

1 hour ago, bad_teammate said:

And the rest of you are also in the backseat with me yelling equally irrelevant shit. None of us are at the wheel at all and the two options in the front of the car are both completely wasted drunks. That's the actual situation.

Why would anyone wait until AFTER election day to push Biden left? It makes no fucking sense at all. This is the time you actually have worth to his campaign as a voter. This is when outside coalitions might actually attract his campaign's attention.

He has zero reason to listen to anyone who says, "I'll do whatever you want whenever you want!"

Voters are at the wheel. Not enough people voted the way you and I did. Because they didn't, Joe Biden is the nominee.

It's really no more complicated than that.

[henrygandorf 29,189]

2 hours ago, bad_teammate said:

Why would anyone wait until AFTER election day to push Biden left? It makes no fucking sense at all. This is the time you actually have worth to his campaign as a voter. This is when outside coalitions might actually attract his campaign's attention.

the real question is - what type of conversation or action "pushes biden left"?

do the repeated reminders and arguments about the sexual assault do this?

does reposting shortened videos showing him stumbling and stuttering through speaking do this?

if you were actually arguing and engaging on policy, i don't think many would question you.  but you're not.  and i understand why you're not.  because we're not.  there's nobody else on the other side of those conversations.  you've made several mentions of "praising biden", but nobody is doing that either.  right now there's "attack biden" posts and there's "shush" posts.  that's where we are.

it's ugly.

Edited April 12, 2020 by henrygandorf

[bad_teammate 13,192]

 

44 minutes ago, henrygandorf said:

the real question is - what type of conversation or action "pushes biden left"?

Individuals within larger groups can influence groups to endorse/support or not endorse/support and can also influence politicians to endorse/support or not endorse/support. Then, if Biden needs those voting groups or politicians, he has to play ball.

You'll notice that neither Warren nor Sanders have endorsed Joe. Why is that?

Also, we need to build progressive candidates and groups to actually apply pressure to Joe once he wins. We cannot just fucking do Obama again where we all stare at him with doe eyes, let all progressive movements die, and then lose 1000+ seats because we have no enthusiasm, beliefs, values, or fire.

The whole "support Joe unreservedly and without criticism during the election and then become a critic of Joe once he is elected" is childish logic. The plan is to troll and bully and shame the left for 7 months and then, as Joe is being inaugurated, go to those same people and say, "Hey no hard feelings, you were right the whole time I just know better than you and had to pretend and lie for the greater good"?

No, those people will just continue being uncritical because they've surrounded themselves with people who are also uncritical.

Just advocate for what your actual beliefs are.

Quote

do the repeated reminders and arguments about the sexual assault do this?

I think the idea that our posts integrate into a strategy is... odd. I don't post because I think it's going to influence Joe Biden. I don't even post because I think it's going to change you guys. I post here to see what people are talking about, what their arguments are, share my own thoughts and things I've seen. Prod, joke, etc...

I have zero illusions that, by logging on, I'm actually doing something impactful in the world.

Quote

if you were actually arguing and engaging on policy, i don't think many would question you. 

This is just a lie. I am the only person here who even bothers to talk about substantive issues with regard to Joe Biden. His drug policy, immigration policy, healthcare policy, environmental policy and on and on and on.

You guys ignore it because you've got nothing to say, but don't put that on me.

[henrygandorf 29,189]

5 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

This is just a lie. I am the only person here who even bothers to talk about substantive issues with regard to Joe Biden. His drug policy, immigration policy, healthcare policy, environmental policy and on and on and on.

You guys ignore it because you've got nothing to say, but don't put that on me.

i meant "question your motives".  right now, people are questioning your motives because they see your posts as right-wing troll-type attacks and insults towards biden, and they also see comments from you about biden being "possibly marginally better than trump" or whatever you said.  you're getting pushback on this because of the content.

if you just attacked (or questioned) his policies, you'd possibly engage some people in actual discussion, which is what you've said you want.  but again, there aren't a ton of people advocating for biden's policies here (or praising biden) so that is definitely challenging.

i could give a shit if you post rape stories or stutter vids.  and i don't think that specifically affects anyone's vote (as i laid out yesterday).  i'm just explaining why you're getting the reaction you're getting.  trump trolls don't talk policy, they take cheap shots.  when you take cheap shots, people will associate you with trump trolls (or at least proclaim you're no different or better than). 

you know exactly what you're doing, and you know the reactions you'll get, and everyone knows this.  which is why you're getting characterized as the troll in all of this.  people who do this stuff without knowing what reactions they'll elicit are dummies.  people who do it knowing exactly what reactions they'll elicit are trolls.  this isn't quantum physics here.

when 1/10 posts are about policy and 9/10 posts calls him a rapist, then that is the lie.  don't piss on our legs and tell us it's raining.

[bad_teammate 13,192]

4 minutes ago, henrygandorf said:

i meant "question your motives".  right now, people are questioning your motives because they see your posts as right-wing troll-type attacks and insults towards biden, and they also see comments from you about biden being "possibly marginally better than trump" or whatever you said.  you're getting pushback on this because of the content.

I can't reason people out of positions they didn't reason themselves into. The idea that I'm a right-wing troll, or anything close to it, is too absurd to even address. It's an indictment of the simple-minded tribalism of the person who thinks that way, not me.

Quote

people who do this stuff without knowing what reactions they'll elicit are dummies.  people who do it knowing exactly what reactions they'll elicit are trolls.  this isn't quantum physics here.

This applies to literally everyone here. You, me, and whoever is reading this.

[henrygandorf 29,189]

18 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

I can't reason people out of positions they didn't reason themselves into. The idea that I'm a right-wing troll, or anything close to it, is too absurd to even address. It's an indictment of the simple-minded tribalism of the person who thinks that way, not me.

i think the fact that they can't tell the difference is, in itself, the problem.

18 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

This applies to literally everyone here. You, me, and whoever is reading this.

right.  except when you make your 9 posts referring to biden as a rapist (or whatever), then act shocked when people don't take your 1 policy post seriously, it comes off as disingenuous.  people will always have trouble separating the post from the poster.  for better or worse.

[bad_teammate 13,192]

8 minutes ago, henrygandorf said:

i think the fact that they can't tell the difference is, in itself, the problem.

I agree completely, and it's one entirely outside of my control.

If someone looks at my posts and sincerely thinks, "That guy likes Trump!" then they are too stupid to be helped.

But that's not what's happening. We both know that.

Quote

right.  except when you make your 9 posts referring to biden as a rapist (or whatever), then act shocked when people don't take your 1 policy post seriously, it comes off as disingenuous.  people will always have trouble separating the post from the poster.  for better or worse.

You were so close. So close to self-reflecting.

Regarding Biden's history of sexual harassment and assault, why are those right-wing/Trump things? Why was that relevant when there were other candidates against him in the primary but irrelevant now that he's won? I don't think that's immaterial to either this election or, far more importantly, how we judge our leaders in general.

If you and others DO think it's immaterial then, yet again, that's a problem with you and not me. It's on you to examine why you think the only proper course of action is uncritical support of a man credibly accused of rape. I'm being 100% consistent both from primary to general election and across party lines. Why aren't you and so many others?

Neither Joe's mental acuity nor his treatment of women are immaterial. They are both 100% valid grounds of discussion, regardless of you feeling otherwise.

[Chuckie Finster 22,694]

[bad_teammate 13,192]

Yes, because they don't actually like Biden. They just hate everyone else more and hate that they are forced into being trolls for a guy they don't like. It's a bad place for a human to be.

[Biff Tannen 45,667]

You’re a fucking crazy person. 

[Hank Kingsley 20,908]

5 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

Yes, because they don't actually like Biden. They just hate everyone else more and hate that they are forced into being trolls for a guy they don't like. It's a bad place for a human to be.

Where exactly is this happening? 

[bad_teammate 13,192]

1 minute ago, Biff Tannen said:

You’re a fucking crazy person. 

Case in point.

[Message Board User 12,395]

Former GOP strategist pulls the trigger and puts Arizona in the blue:

 

[JimmyJames 12,271]

On 4/12/2020 at 4:16 PM, bad_teammate said:

I agree completely, and it's one entirely outside of my control.

If someone looks at my posts and sincerely thinks, "That guy likes Trump!" then they are too stupid to be helped.

But that's not what's happening. We both know that.

You were so close. So close to self-reflecting.

Regarding Biden's history of sexual harassment and assault, why are those right-wing/Trump things? Why was that relevant when there were other candidates against him in the primary but irrelevant now that he's won? I don't think that's immaterial to either this election or, far more importantly, how we judge our leaders in general.

If you and others DO think it's immaterial then, yet again, that's a problem with you and not me. It's on you to examine why you think the only proper course of action is uncritical support of a man credibly accused of rape. I'm being 100% consistent both from primary to general election and across party lines. Why aren't you and so many others?

Neither Joe's mental acuity nor his treatment of women are immaterial. They are both 100% valid grounds of discussion, regardless of you feeling otherwise.

You are a trump supporter at this point. Just admit it and move on. 

[JimmyJames 12,271]

8 hours ago, bad_teammate said:

Yes, because they don't actually like Biden. They just hate everyone else more and hate that they are forced into being trolls for a guy they don't like. It's a bad place for a human to be.

How much do you plan to give the trump campaign this fall? Or are you just gonna post on this board instead? 

[JimmyJames 12,271]

8 hours ago, bad_teammate said:

Yes, because they don't actually like Biden. They just hate everyone else more and hate that they are forced into being trolls for a guy they don't like. It's a bad place for a human to be.

Sorry bud. This board isn’t stupid enough to not recognize exactly what you are doing. Go troll somewhere else. 

Edited April 14, 2020 by JimmyJames

[Bama Chick 28,596]

Glad to see Bernie putting his money where his mouth was.

[BradInATX 9,208]

Glad to see Bernie putting his money where his mouth was.

If only his most ardent supporters were ad morally consistent as he.

[bad_teammate 13,192]

"Yes, because they don't actually like Biden. They just hate everyone else more and hate that they are forced into being trolls for a guy they don't like. It's a bad place for a human to be."

Followed by fury, negs, and trolling.

Seems like this correct observation hit a nerve.

-----------

2 hours ago, BradInATX said:

9 hours ago, Bama Chick said:

Glad to see Bernie putting his money where his mouth was.

If only his most ardent supporters were ad morally consistent as he.

To be fair, his first words are "People in the Democratic Party...", which doesn't really apply to non-Democrats. Bernie brought in non-Dems. Hopefully Joe can do the same.

[Hiphopopotamos 20,869]

 

[bad_teammate 13,192]

After Bernie? Damn, I wonder what Barack was holding out for.

[BradInATX 9,208]

18 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

After Bernie? Damn, I wonder what Barack was holding out for.

 

What would you have done if he had endorsed Joe while the primary was still competitive?

Rhetorical question - I already know.

[bad_teammate 13,192]

Instead of just working for Joe behind the scenes to convince candidates to drop out and endorse Joe?

I would've respected an open endorsement more because it would've been a risk.

[kevwun 15,770]

Obama is getting ready to formally endorse Biden in the least surprising news ever category.

[Storm the Field 5,294]

36 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

After Bernie? Damn, I wonder what Barack was holding out for.

Jesus Christ you're a fucking beating.

[bad_teammate 13,192]

Just now, Storm the Field said:

Jesus Christ you're a fucking beating.

Sorry that you're so mad that you can't see an obvious joke.

Maybe take a break.

[Hank Kingsley 20,908]

 

I know people understandably just want to get Trump out and don't care if Joe barely wins the EC, but let's aim a bit higher here. There's a real opportunity to rally everyone behind Joe (and down ballot Dems). 

Biden can win Arizona. And Wisconsin. And Michigan and Pennsylvania. And Florida. And Nevada. And North Carolina. 

The goal should be to blow Trump out of the fucking water in November. 

[Hiphopopotamos 20,869]

 

[Bama Chick 28,596]

 
The goal should be to blow Trump out of the fucking water in November. 

Make it fucking HURT.

[henrygandorf 29,189]

he will fight it no matter what.  he will raise hell and file lawsuits.  but one would hope that if it's a wipeout, only the trumpiest of supporters will take it halfway seriously.

if it's close, it will drag on for weeks and months.  it needs to not be close.

[Hank Kingsley 20,908]

Something close to this is possible: 

[FondrenRoad 4,378]

13 minutes ago, Hank Kingsley said:

Something close to this is possible: 

That's pretty optimistic, but I guess there is reason to be optimistic.  I think Florida votes red, and maybe Georgia flips blue in this one.  Still not the year for Texas?  Polls are tighter than they have been in decades in Texas.  I could see a one time flip which reverts to red for the next 2 or 3 cycles.  

Covid is also disproportionately affecting black communities in MI and PA.  I'm not sure yet about how I think that will affect turnout.

Amash needs to stay out of it.  He may steal more Biden voters than Trump voters. 

[Hank Kingsley 20,908]

1 minute ago, FondrenRoad said:

That's pretty optimistic, but I guess there is reason to be optimistic.  I think Florida votes red, and maybe Georgia flips blue in this one.  Still not the year for Texas?  Polls are tighter than they have been in decades in Texas.  I could see a one time flip which reverts to red for the next 2 or 3 cycles.  

Covid is also disproportionately affecting black communities in MI and PA.  I'm not sure yet about how I think that will affect turnout.

Amash needs to stay out of it.  He may steal more Biden voters than Trump voters. 

Yeah, it's arguably a best case scenario.  But I don't think it's unrealistic. 

I think Texas could get very interesting. 

 

[gmr548 16,576]

 
I know people understandably just want to get Trump out and don't care if Joe barely wins the EC, but let's aim a bit higher here. There's a real opportunity to rally everyone behind Joe (and down ballot Dems). 
Biden can win Arizona. And Wisconsin. And Michigan and Pennsylvania. And Florida. And Nevada. And North Carolina. 
The goal should be to blow Trump out of the fucking water in November. 

If Biden wins AZ by 9 it will be a blowout. Hell, if he wins AZ by 9, he's winning Texas.

Obviously it's just one poll and it's impossible to predict November right now, so I don't give it much weight. But I do like your overall sentiment. Winning is going to require legitimately competing in all of those places. I still think FL is the Democratic white whale but you have to make an effort to expand the map. People talk about how critical the Midwest is, and it's important, but getting one of AZ or NC really narrows Trump's path to victory. And you have to work for FL. Trump's almost certainly fucked without it.

[Hank Kingsley 20,908]

1 minute ago, gmr548 said:

If Biden wins AZ by 9 it will be a blowout. Hell, if he wins AZ by 9, he's winning Texas.

Obviously it's just one poll and it's impossible to predict November right now, so I don't give it much weight. But I do like your overall sentiment. Winning is going to require legitimately competing in all of those places. I still think FL is the Democratic white whale but you have to make an effort to expand the map. People talk about how critical the Midwest is, and it's important, but getting one of AZ or NC really narrows Trump's path to victory. And you have to work for FL. Trump's almost certainly fucked without it.

 

 

Yeah, the Democrats can't just say to themselves "let's just win Michigan and Wisconsin", edge out Trump in the EC, and think that is a good enough victory. The goal should be a blowout victory and complete repudiation of Trumpism. 

Obviously the pandemic is hurting both campaigns right now. Trump can't do the big rallies, which you know is killing him. Biden can't have all of these other candidates spread out all over the country stumping for him and down ballot candidates. 

What makes me nervous post-quarantine (meaning when people can just go back to work) is that Americans are the most forgiving and forgetful people in the world. Do they give Trump credit for things eventually returning to some sort of normal? Do they forgive all the mistakes he and his administration have made? It will be vital for Biden and Dems to not allow that to happen. 

 

 

[4th&Five 41,519]

from the obama statement.  nailed it.

[4th&Five 41,519]

Just now, Hank Kingsley said:

Yeah, the Democrats can't just say to themselves "let's just win Michigan and Wisconsin", edge out Trump in the EC, and think that is a good enough victory. The goal should be a blowout victory and complete repudiation of Trumpism. 

Obviously the pandemic is hurting both campaigns right now. Trump can't do the big rallies, which you know is killing him. Biden can't have all of these other candidates spread out all over the country stumping for him and down ballot candidates. 

What makes me nervous post-quarantine (meaning when people can just go back to work) is that Americans are the most forgiving and forgetful people in the world. Do they give Trump credit for things eventually returning to some sort of normal? Do they forgive all the mistakes he and his administration have made? It will be vital for Biden and Dems to not allow that to happen. 

 

 

i don't think we return to any sort of normal before november and most of that has to do with him and the people he put in charge of this.

[gmr548 16,576]

Yeah, the Democrats can't just say to themselves "let's just win Michigan and Wisconsin", edge out Trump in the EC, and think that is a good enough victory. The goal should be a blowout victory and complete repudiation of Trumpism. 
Obviously the pandemic is hurting both campaigns right now. Trump can't do the big rallies, which you know is killing him. Biden can't have all of these other candidates spread out all over the country stumping for him and down ballot candidates. 
What makes me nervous post-quarantine (meaning when people can just go back to work) is that Americans are the most forgiving and forgetful people in the world. Do they give Trump credit for things eventually returning to some sort of normal? Do they forgive all the mistakes he and his administration have made? It will be vital for Biden and Dems to not allow that to happen. 
 
 

I do worry about this with his approval up slightly, though it's trending back down. When he tries to scapegoat China, Americans eat that shit up. That's why, gun to my head, I'd pick Trump to win right now.

If we go through with trying to loosen restrictions next month, there will absolutely beb portions of the country that will have a second wave in late summer or early fall, because the Trump administration will either be incompetent in implementing the measures required, or will actively try to sweep everything under the rug. The Democrats have just been letting Trump say dumb shit and hurt himself so far. Have to hope they're saving their powder, because if they're this quiet in the fall, your concerns are spot on.