2020 Democratic Nominee

[Dbeasy 14966]

Could you expand or clarify your opinion on Healthcare.  Some form of universal healthcare seems to poll well with many conservatives as well.  
 

My thoughts are very poorly formed at this point. I’m not well read on the issue. I was very familiar with Obamacare. I actually read the policy cover to cover because my tech company was providing healthcare products for it.

I found that the coverage models of Obamacare produced much higher total rates (unsubsidized) than business negotiated rates. I was never able to reconcile why.

It led me to be wary of a more government managed system, especially after seeing the tremendous waste we have in the military, and also seeing some degradation in health services from my Canadian and UK employees as compared to what we can do in the US (timeliness of accessing specialists, wait lists, etc).

However, being involved with Obamacare helped me realize how complicated the issue is, and I’ve always felt that some sort of practical, non-agenda based approach could result in a much better system. I did not mind the universal requirement for insurance, for example. Anyway, would be nice to see a candidate proposing a common sense approach.

[gmr548 16503]

The common sense approach to healthcare isn't really an approach to healthcare at all. Common sense says you can throw as much money at healthcare as you want, but you'll never outspend the factors that are currently degrading our national health.

Common sense says the way to fix the problem would be to fundamentally change the things about our society that make us so goddamn unhealthy. Treat the disease, not just the symptoms, to use a medical parallel.

To be clear, I'm a supporter of single-payer healthcare. It is far more cost effective and humane than what we're doing now. And the supposed price tag, which is kind of a bullshit argument anyway given the existing costs, shouldn't be a deterrent in a country as staggeringly wealthy as this one.

But as long as we eat a shitty diet, live in ever-expanding low-density sprawl, pollute the fuck out of the environment, and maintain a toxic and draconian workplace culture, we're going to be an unhealthy nation that spends way too much on healthcare because all of those things are fundamentally unhealthy. And the poor will continue to have it worse, because being poor in this country is to live in a state of constant stress, which is one of the biggest drivers of negative health outcomes.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

[RDCanecutter 26250]

3 hours ago, tantric superman said:

Good reason for people to move from the more populated states to the less populated. 

North Dakota needs every advantage it can get.

I wonder if California bitched this much about having 2 senators back when they had a whole 92,000 people.

[NowThis 931]

is this true? 

[Message Board User 12389]

 

[bad_teammate 13132]

it's been a week and a half. I'm not going to start crying yet, but if this trend continues I'm going to have to abandon hope (again) and just be a jolly court jester as the nation continues to sink

 

[Guest Lobo]

But, Beto O'Dork did parkour in a Starbucks!  Isn't that good for a bounce?  

/warrenSNL 

[Dbeasy 14966]

It’s early. Too early to worry.

[Hugo Stiglitz 23356]

Was really cool of Biden to launch his campaign during the same time the public was looking at the Mueller Report.  “Way to go Joe!  Way to give the worst news of Trump’s presidency the perfect distraction.  Your old dumbass.”

[mchookem 16206]

sooo... things going well for Joe Biden? 🤨

[Bozo_Casanova 26279]

I'm curious why Hickenlooper doesn't make y'alls' lists of candidates, especially since moderates are in short supply.

Because his fucking name is Hickenlooper.

[bad_teammate 13132]

 

 

 

[alincoln 2364]

Blacks generally aren't inclined to vote for atheist Jews (Bernie), old white women (Warren), gays (Mayor Pete) or whatever the fuck Beto is.  Biden's support among blacks will only increase when Harris and Booker inevitably drop out.  

Moderate whites want a moderate white who they perceive has the best chance to beat Trump.  That's Biden.

It's a tough spot for the candidates other than Bernie.  They aren't going to "out-progressive" the OG progressive in Bernie or make many inroads with blacks (assuming that Harris is not considered a viable candidate).  Good luck clamoring back to the right to pick up the moderates who just want to depose Trump.

[troph 24562]

I think Beto does better than Bernie and Warren with the African American communities - though arguably warrens policies are exactly what minority groups that have been subjected to systemic racism should want.

 

But I do see Biden in a position where he can walk away with the nomination. He’s already campaigning as the presumptive nominee and with his lead that can just build more momentum that can be hard to overcome.

 

The wildcard is joe himself - he will step all in it several times is my expectation and the question is will that be enough for Bernie?

 

As long as Bernie is running a solid second I don’t see much room for anyone else.

 

Sucks.

[troph 24562]

I’ll add one more wildcard - the race isn’t national until after Super Tuesday. The ground game in Iowa, New Hampshire and South Carolina will impact the headlines and the nomination for sure. Bernie can capitalize and the only other candidate I see that could come out of nowhere is Beto. Warren could but she’s in the shadow of Bernie. Beto would posture as a more progressive centrist which could appeal if he can glob onto the Biden is too old and too beholden to Wall Street - both of which are true.

[bad_teammate 13132]

Joe "I hate Millennials" Biden at the head of the pack

Democratic Party withholding support from primary challengers

I am shocked, SHOCKED, that young Democrats are pissed.

Quote

Sixty-eight chapters of the College Democrats are urging voters not to donate to the party’s congressional-campaign arm after it instituted a new policy to protect incumbents from primary challenges. The protesting students say that the change will deter young candidates and people from historically marginalized communities from running for office. Their outrage isn’t just noteworthy because they represent younger voters in the electorate—these young people are also some of the party’s key organizers and activists.

...

Another potential problem the students have expressed is keeping young people engaged. “The next generation of grassroots activists and organizers are really not happy with the way the Democratic Party is conducting itself,” Pearce says. If the party makes it harder to challenge incumbents, they’ll also make it harder for young people looking for change to feel excited about a candidate. “When we have younger voices and voices that better represent young people, they’re more likely to vote,” says Georgie Swan, who will serve as president of the Mississippi State College Democrats in the fall.

 

[alincoln 2364]

Beto has to dramatically improve his numbers in IA and NH because he is going to get pummeled in SC.  Beto's numbers in NH have been weak (3%) since the Butt boost and he has hovered around 5% in Iowa for months.    

[troph 24562]

Beto has to dramatically improve his numbers in IA and NH because he is going to get pummeled in SC.  Beto's numbers in NH have been weak (3%) since the Butt boost and he has hovered around 5% in Iowa for months.    

Oh I think it’s Biden Sanders and no one else at this point. I was just saying the routes to someone else are through retail politics early and Biden suffering a massive gaff. Both of which are possible. Still unlikely to change it much.

[alincoln 2364]

Biden senility is also a possible opening.  I have no idea who would be best positioned to move into the breach.

[Bama Chick 28596]

Because his fucking name is Hickenlooper.

And he admitted to watching porn with his MOM.

[Hank Kingsley 20680]

Look, there is a significant portion of liberals that will not fall in line with Biden as the nominee. People can bitch about it all they want, but going from a "totally shitty" POTUS to a "kinda shitty" alternative will not inspire people to go to the polls, especially the younger generation. 

At some point there will be a serious push back to Biden. It just pisses me off that we're basing all Joe's momentum on questionable polling numbers this far out when I literally haven't met one person that seriously supports him. 

 

 

[BradInATX 9208]

Can't wait to choose between a quixotic geriatric that's further left than like 90% of the population and the most status quo, beltway cynic person possible, who is also a geriatric and further right than the majority of people born after 1970.

 

Great work Dems. Either will probably beat Trump but still terrible.

 

 

[Hugo Stiglitz 23356]

9 minutes ago, BradInATX said:

Can't wait to choose between a quixotic geriatric that's further left than like 90% of the population and the most status quo, beltway cynic person possible, who is also a geriatric and further right than the majority of people born after 1970.

 

Great work Dems. Either will probably beat Trump but still terrible.

All because Hillary was such a shitty candidate...amirite? 

[bad_teammate 13132]

Bernie is not left of 90% of the country. He's a New Deal Democrat.

The government is much further right than the voters.

[troph 24562]

Bernie is not left of 90% of the country. He's a New Deal Democrat.
The government is much further right than the voters.

That’s just not true. Public sentiment and voter sentiment are not the same. Not sure your age but there are millions of older voters even democrats that don’t support Bernie’s and Warren’s positions - and the proof of that is Bernie not winning the Dem primary last time and HRC losing as well.

[BradInATX 9208]

4 minutes ago, troph said:

That’s just not true. Public sentiment and voter sentiment are not the same. Not sure your age but there are millions of older voters even democrats that don’t support Bernie’s and Warren’s positions - and the proof of that is Bernie not winning the Dem primary last time and HRC losing as well.

The last democratic poll crosstabs showed that 70+ percent of Democratic primary voters want either Obama-era left-right alignment, or more right. It was 17% (I think) that wanted left of Obama.

So 17% of Democrats = somewhere between 6 and 10 percent of the population. And that's assuming "left of Obama" means "Bernie", which I'd guess there are some that fall in between those two. Me, for example.

So yeah, it's about 90% that he's left of. We often forget that Surly and the internet communities are not even remotely representative of the general population of voters.

Edited May 7, 2019 by BradInATX

[Hank Kingsley 20680]

Hillary lost because people didn't like her. Had nothing to do with policy IMO. 

 

 

 

[Hugo Stiglitz 23356]

Hillary lost because Trump was an awesome candidate that lied and cheated his way to victory. 

[BradInATX 9208]

2 minutes ago, Hank Kingsley said:

Hillary lost because people didn't like her. Had nothing to do with policy IMO. 

 

 

 

Correct. I didn't even respond to it because he already knows that.

Doubling down on a mistake by putting up the guy who lost to her, or basically the male version of her, is, well, exactly what you'd expect Democrats to do, because it's the worst thing possible.

Edited May 7, 2019 by BradInATX

[bad_teammate 13132]

2 minutes ago, troph said:

That’s just not true. Public sentiment and voter sentiment are not the same. Not sure your age but there are millions of older voters even democrats that don’t support Bernie’s and Warren’s positions -

He said "further left than like 90% of the population", which is absurd.

Medicare for All and Free College are broadly popular positions.

Quote

...and the proof of that is Bernie not winning the Dem primary last time and HRC losing as well.

Bernie was an absolute nobody whose "I'm running" press conference was attended by 4 reporters and some squirrels in a nearby tree. He ended up getting 43% of the Democratic primary voters and 13.2M votes. He polled higher against Trump than Clinton all the way up to the convention (when they stopped polling him v Trump).

He didn't win those with his youth, magnetic personality, charm, good looks, parkour skills, or talent show trophies. He was/is a hectoring old white man waggling his finger and repeating basically the same speeches and ideas he's been rambling on about for 800 years.

Sanders won votes ENTIRELY because of his positions. Positions that every single candidate running against him, with perhaps the exception of Klobuchar and Biden, copy/pasted for their 2020 platforms.

If he was left of 90% of the population, none of this would have happened.

It's a flat-out idiotic thing to say.

[Bozo_Casanova 26279]

5 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

Sanders won votes ENTIRELY because of his positions.

That's bullshit. 

1) He was seen as the most viable not-Clinton candidate

2) He's likeable and amusing

3) He provided strong thematic appeal to people's anger/issues

...

 

 

 

 

1000) Specific Positions

Edited May 7, 2019 by Bozo_Casanova

[bad_teammate 13132]

1 minute ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

That's bullshit. 
1) He was seen as the most viable not-Clinton candidate

Late into 2015, sure, but why did that come about? Accident?

Quote

2) He's likeable and amusing

lol no

Quote

3) He provided strong thematic appeal to people's anger/issues

So his... positions.

lol

[Hugo Stiglitz 23356]

Bernie was appealing because he was an outsider.  It’s still his most competitive advantage.

[Bozo_Casanova 26279]

No. Themes are not positions. Helping the working class is a theme. Punishing wall street is a theme.  Positions are detailed specifics. People in general care a great deal about the former and not much about the latter.

If you polled 100 Sanders supporters and asked them his policy proposal on prescription drug pricing, how many could tell you beyond a general idea of his desire to make them more affordable? 

Also - you don't think he's likable and amusing? That seems like a core part of his appeal.

Edited May 7, 2019 by Bozo_Casanova

[bad_teammate 13132]

3 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

Bernie was appealing because he was an outsider.  It’s still his most competitive advantage.

And he's an outsider because of ...

wait for it...

his positions.

Just now, Bozo_Casanova said:

No. Themes are not positions. Helping the working class is a theme. Punishing wall street is a theme.  Positions are detailed specifics. People in general care a great deal about the former and not much about the latter.

Medicare for All, free college, and$15/hr minimum wage are broadly popular positions that Bernie spoke/speaks about incessantly.

Absolute garbage punditry.

Quote

If you polled 100 Sanders supporters and asked them his policy proposal on prescription drug pricing, how many could tell you beyond a general idea of his desire to make them more affordable? 

Basically all of them, given that Medicare for All is the #1 issue for Sanders people.

[bad_teammate 13132]

Check out Bernie's campaign merchandise.

We need a pundit genocide.

[BradInATX 9208]

bozo is right in that I doubt many of his supporters could articulate details of his plan. For example what percentage of them know that his M4A plan includes a multi-trillion dollar handout to corporate America (Relax b_t, I'm messing with you).

But that's probably true of every candidate, Except for Liz Warren and her 3% of smart, informed voters. I think Bernie voters just generally see him as sticking up for the everyman, and to some lesser extent, giving them stuff. I don't think it's fair to say that his supporters are charisma-driven. I'd say he's less so than most others (Beto, for example).

[bad_teammate 13132]

Just now, BradInATX said:

I think Bernie voters just generally see him as sticking up for the everyman...

Why do they see him that way?

 

[Hugo Stiglitz 23356]

1 minute ago, bad_teammate said:

And he's an outsider because of ...

wait for it...

his positions.

I hate the Trump/Bernie comparisons but as far as the “outsider/disruptor” appeal, it fits.  Trump had policy positions too that weren’t really popular or well articulated but they appealed to the anger of the electorate with our broken system.  You have to concede Bernie has an “I alone can fix it” schtick.  The details aren’t exactly fleshed out for most people to easily understand.

Some people call this demagoguery 

[BradInATX 9208]

Just now, bad_teammate said:

Why do they see him that way?

 

You and bozo aren't arguing the same thing, though. He's saying that most Bernie voters can't articulate the finer details of his policy (more than likely true), and you're saying that his voters grasp the general spirit and direction of his policies  (also true).

[BradInATX 9208]

Just now, Hugo Stiglitz said:

I hate the Trump/Bernie comparisons but as far as the “outsider/disruptor” appeal, it fits.  Trump had policy positions too that weren’t really popular or well articulated but they appealed to the anger of the electorate with our broken system.  You have to concede Bernie has an “I alone can fix it” schtick.  The details aren’t exactly fleshed out for most people to easily understand.

Some people call this demagoguery 

The details are there, if you really want to know them.

But it's almost like "it's all right there on my web site!" isn't a strong way to get your message across.

Edited May 7, 2019 by BradInATX

[406W30th 1111]

Biden's numbers w/ black voters is crazy to me. Then again Hillary, who employed mostly black slave labor while in the Arkansas' governor mansion, cruised to victory due to minority support throughout the south.

 

[bad_teammate 13132]

3 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

I hate the Trump/Bernie comparisons but as far as the “outsider/disruptor” appeal, it fits.  Trump had policy positions too that weren’t really popular or well articulated but they appealed to the anger of the electorate with our broken system.  You have to concede Bernie has an “I alone can fix it” schtick.  

Absolutely not.

His entire schtick is the need for a larger political revolution. When his campaign stopped in 2016 he started Our Revolution specifically to promote the policies he believes in and find younger candidates to promote those policies.

The "Trump = Bernie" crap is just exhaustingly stupid.

Quote

The details aren’t exactly fleshed out for most people to easily understand.

Again, you don't know what you're talking about.

Sanders has filed legislation for this stuff already with co-sponsors and committee hearings.

You do not know what you are talking about.

3 minutes ago, BradInATX said:

He's saying that most Bernie voters can't articulate the finer details of his policy (more than likely true)

What does "finer details" even mean? Or matter? What voting base anywhere in the history of humankind has consisted of policy wonks who read all the legislation? I would wager that Bernie's voting base is far more conversant in policy than basically any voting base in the 2020 Dem primary.

[jdhorn92 1538]

Dem nominee for 2020 is a tough call, its a little touch and Joe at this point.

Edited May 7, 2019 by jdhorn92

[Hugo Stiglitz 23356]

9 minutes ago, BradInATX said:

The details are there, if you really want to know them.

But it's almost like "it's all right there on my web site!" isn't a strong way to get your message across.

If the details are good, he would sell those.  If his plans and ideas are awesome he would flaunt them and let them speak for themself.  Maybe he’s waiting to do that, I don’t know but running around promising free college and healthcare for all comes off as shit someone says to get elected.  

[Guest Lobo]

 The Democrats got in line to back carry in 2004 just like they got in line to support Hillary Clinton despite Bernie Sanders in 2016.    Just like so many campaigns before  

The only time the Democrats veered off script was to support Obama over Hillary in  2008 .     And they only did that because Hillary who was actually born and raised in Chicago   Forgot to address the Democratic machine in Chicago that controls national democratic politics    Something Obama paid very careful attention to despite having only lived there for a few years. 

 

 So I have no doubt you will all put aside your bullshit and back Joe Biden like you are fucking told .   You want independent thought? the GOP in the Democratic Party are not for you

[Bozo_Casanova 26279]

25 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

Basically all of them, given that Medicare for All is the #1 issue for Sanders people.

But that's NOT his position on prescription drug pricing. His major proposal on pricing is the prescription drub price relief act, a peg to the average of five other western countries. Thanks for making my point, though. Bring your shinebox along next time and you can work while we chat. 

Edited May 7, 2019 by Bozo_Casanova

[F250 28681]

On 5/6/2019 at 10:05 AM, Pancho Negro said:

I really like Harris, and she's at or near the top of my list.  But her lack of Black endorsements is concerning. 

How much of this is due to her being a former prosecutor? Just curious if the fact that she thrived off of an unjust justice system turns off the black vote.

I can't speak for the black community but personally I don't like cops and I fucking hate prosecutors. So I really dislike Harris. Curious if others feel the same way.

[Hugo Stiglitz 23356]

12 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

Absolutely not.

His entire schtick is the need for a larger political revolution. When his campaign stopped in 2016 he started Our Revolution specifically to promote the policies he believes in and find younger candidates to promote those policies.

The "Trump = Bernie" crap is just exhaustingly stupid.

Again, you don't know what you're talking about.

Sanders has filed legislation for this stuff already with co-sponsors and committee hearings.

You do not know what you are talking about.

What does "finer details" even mean? Or matter? What voting base anywhere in the history of humankind has consisted of policy wonks who read all the legislation? I would wager that Bernie's voting base is far more conversant in policy than basically any voting base in the 2020 Dem primary.

You’re right that I’m not super informed on the finer points of Bernie’s ideology or strategy.  My perception of his movement is only what he is showing me. It’s not me reading all his books and legislation.  

I’m giving an opinion from the position of what I think most other voters are seeing.  Bernie wants to be president and the way he’s trying to do it is through an emotionally charged/appeal to the people that are fed up with the system.  He might have very altruistic reasons for running that kind of campaign but he’s not selling those reasons as well as he probably could/should.

Edited May 7, 2019 by Hugo Stiglitz

[Bozo_Casanova 26279]

29 minutes ago, BradInATX said:

He's saying that most Bernie voters can't articulate the finer details of his policy (more than likely true), and you're saying that his voters grasp the general spirit and direction of his policies  (also true).

I'm saying that about most voters, across all candidates and parties, but I'm not sure that they do grasp the direction of the policies. I think they are more likely to project that onto candidates based on their perception of the major thematic elements of the campaign. 

Edited May 7, 2019 by Bozo_Casanova