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2020 Democratic Nominee

used2b

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Huckleberry
Huckleberry

No it doesn't, this is absurd selfishness on a grand scale. Nobody is getting punished. My wife and I paid off our student loans, and you know what I think about younger people or even those in our ge

henrygandorf
henrygandorf

i’ve really enjoyed the 900 posts from bt explaining how bernie people aren’t aggressive, obsessive, and very-online.  truly a learning experience. 

Bill Clinton
Bill Clinton

3rd or 4th thread but whos counting.  Name recognition and ability to collect money is most important to the Democratic Party. They aren't trying to win 2020, they are trying to rebuild and colle

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EMAWesome

EMAWesome 101

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Two things about those polls.

 

1.  Trump supporters have a tendency to not be enthusiastic about being polled.

2.  The popular vote doesn't determine the election.  He may trail in the popular vote but if a lot of that deficit is in a few states (cough California and New York, cough cough) he could still win more electoral college votes which are the ones that matter. 

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henrygandorf

henrygandorf 29194

Posted
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3 hours ago, Jhawk said:

You sound like Beto haha.

I haven't followed her that much other than knowing that her entire political career is based on attacking wall street.  Which isn't a bad cause for getting elected.  But between the Native American thing and the having a beer with her husband thing I just can't see her being anything but awkward when dealing with adversity on the trail.  She couldn't even look natural announcing her candidacy.

i like warren a lot, but she's still going to have to overcome the dumb stigma that women are facing for high political office.  polls show that too many women still aren't comfortable voting for a woman.  not only that, but women (and men too i think) seem to gain confidence in men as they grow older, but the reverse is true when voting for women.

simply put, women like biden (76), who can hardly put a coherent sentence together, but don't like warren (69) who can run intellectual circles around most anyone.

i know, polling accuracy blah blah, but whatever.    

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henrygandorf

henrygandorf 29194

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4 hours ago, tantric superman said:

Warren is going to catch Bernie, and when that happens, Bernie is going to keep dropping.  

 

That being said, anybody have a link to a poll that identifies who has higher negative ratings from Dems and Republs, Bernie or Lizzy? 

not sure if this is exactly what you're looking for, but someone posted it a week or two ago.

https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/sanders-de-blasio-gabbard-most-disliked-833544/

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F250

F250 28806

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On 5/16/2019 at 8:01 AM, Hugo Stiglitz said:

Hey look, another brilliant plan by Elizabeth Warren that would improve our system of self government instead of being a defense contractor meal ticket. 

 

This is awesome. We need more candidates to bring this subject up.

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Jhawk

Jhawk 1075

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3 hours ago, henrygandorf said:

i like warren a lot, but she's still going to have to overcome the dumb stigma that women are facing for high political office.  polls show that too many women still aren't comfortable voting for a woman.  not only that, but women (and men too i think) seem to gain confidence in men as they grow older, but the reverse is true when voting for women.

simply put, women like biden (76), who can hardly put a coherent sentence together, but don't like warren (69) who can run intellectual circles around most anyone.

i know, polling accuracy blah blah, but whatever.    

It’s definitely a hurdle. I think that hurdle is compounded with being a 1 issue candidate. She hates banks. We get it. But the fact of the matter is that ALL of her colleagues love the money the banks bring in and the president doesn’t write policy or walk it through the legislature. I won’t give her credit for hating trump as an issue because anyone who is voting in the democratic primary falls into that category. She really is a good example of a candidate that would be a better senator or house member than a president. 

So you’re awkward, you have the stigma of being a female, and you only talk about one thing all the time. Husbands all over the country deal with that every single day when they come home from a long day at work and they ask their wife to stop nagging before they eventually ask for a divorce. Warren’s numbers don’t look great in the primary and subconsciously this has to be at least one of the reasons. 

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Thetexashammer

Thetexashammer 1062

Posted
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5 hours ago, henrygandorf said:

i like warren a lot, but she's still going to have to overcome the dumb stigma that women are facing for high political office.  polls show that too many women still aren't comfortable voting for a woman.  not only that, but women (and men too i think) seem to gain confidence in men as they grow older, but the reverse is true when voting for women.

simply put, women like biden (76), who can hardly put a coherent sentence together, but don't like warren (69) who can run intellectual circles around most anyone.

i know, polling accuracy blah blah, but whatever.    

So, women.

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TexArcher

TexArcher 37997

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7 hours ago, EMAWesome said:

1.  Trump supporters have a tendency to not be enthusiastic about being polled.

Yeah, most racists are quiet about it.

I'm not saying that all Trump voters are racists.  Some are just stupid, and stupid people probably also turn down a lot of polls in general.  

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BradInATX

BradInATX 9208

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Two things about those polls.
 
1.  Trump supporters have a tendency to not be enthusiastic about being polled.
2.  The popular vote doesn't determine the election.  He may trail in the popular vote but if a lot of that deficit is in a few states (cough California and New York, cough cough) he could still win more electoral college votes which are the ones that matter. 
This will only sustain you for so long. Voter suppression and old people are your dam that will soon burst. Ultimately you will be on the wrong side of everything and you'll be watching the world pass you by. Hopefully you're old and won't have too many years as a relic of a time that most of us can't wait to forget.
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bad_teammate

bad_teammate 13221

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As the old die, new olds are made.

Being on the wrong side of history doesn't really hurt people much, they either remain bitter or they convince themselves they always supported the new way. People go very far to ignore uncomfortable truths about themselves.

We need to appeal to their material interests in order to win them.

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Patrick Bateman

Patrick Bateman 3918

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51 minutes ago, Hank Kingsley said:

Beware of polling, please. 

 

A real setback for climate change proponents, although Australia's elections are a little different than ours.

Moving on....

I like the aspiration but how do you propose to pay for it?

Quote
The 2020 hopeful's policy proposal adds to the already robust debate in the Democratic primary regarding education, but like many Sanders proposals, comes with many promises but few specifics as to how it will be paid for.

 

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Patrick Bateman

Patrick Bateman 3918

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Posted
Just now, Hugo Stiglitz said:

It’s almost as if no country on earth has ever figured out a way to pay for public education without going bankrupt. 

Cool.... then detail it.  If not, then it's just an aspiration.  The.... but, but, but other countries do it is as empty as but Hillary.  It's nice other countries do it, gives a candidate a broad outline, but if you're going to propose it, then do it right.

 

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Hugo Stiglitz

Hugo Stiglitz 23367

Posted
Posted (edited)
27 minutes ago, Patrick Bateman said:

Cool.... then detail it.  If not, then it's just an aspiration.  The.... but, but, but other countries do it is as empty as but Hillary.  It's nice other countries do it, gives a candidate a broad outline, but if you're going to propose it, then do it right.

 

Tax the rich, wealth tax, block grants, cut defense spending, don’t go to war in Iraq or Afghanistan, don’t build a $40B border wall, don’t bail out farmers because of a stupid trade war, don’t bail out the banks when they rob the American people.  

Public education shouldn’t be viewed as an expense with no payoff.  It should be seen as an investment that makes your population/economy stronger and more productive.  The same can be said about healthcare.

Edited by Hugo Stiglitz
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Hank Kingsley

Hank Kingsley 20995

Posted
Posted
35 minutes ago, Patrick Bateman said:

A real setback for climate change proponents, although Australia's elections are a little different than ours.

Yeah, but this sounds a bit too familiar. 

Morrison thanked who he called the “quiet Australians” for the victory.

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Patrick Bateman

Patrick Bateman 3918

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37 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

Tax the rich, wealth tax, block grants, cut defense spending, don’t go to war in Iraq or Afghanistan, don’t build a $40B border wall, don’t bail out farmers because of a stupid trade war, don’t bail out the banks when they rob the American people.  

Public education shouldn’t be viewed as an expense with no payoff.  It should be seen as an investment that makes your population/economy stronger and more productive.  The same can be said about healthcare.

Tax the rich?  How?  How much, what percentage?  What's the structure?  Wealth tax?  How, estate tax?  Straight income tax?  Asset tax?  Liquid?  Real Estate count?  How much, because I assure you the accuracy of tax assessment varies greatly from state to state.  Don't go to war in Iraq?  That's a sunk cost.  Would it even be enough for the sustainability of this plan?  Again, you've named some alternatives and some talking points, but you've given no plan.  This isn't specific to Bernie (although considering his candidacy brand, he probably needs to be a leader on this situation), it's inherent in most candidates.  Most have ambitions, but don't have plans.  I'm shopping for a candidate, I prefer at least a sound outline of a plan if one doesn't have exact specifics.  Don't give empty rhetoric, like "other countries do it".  That's weak.  We're not arguing about if educational reform is needed (it is), we're wondering what exactly is Bernie's proposal rather than aspiration. Again, other candidates are just as guilty

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bad_teammate

bad_teammate 13221

Posted
Posted

These two posts right next to each other...

1 hour ago, Js1 said:

Biden-mentum! Like 1,000 people showed up. Watch out Don!!

 

 

59 minutes ago, Hank Kingsley said:

Yeah, but this sounds a bit too familiar. 

Morrison thanked who he called the “quiet Australians” for the victory.

Trump is going to get another 4 years.

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Hugo Stiglitz

Hugo Stiglitz 23367

Posted
Posted (edited)
18 minutes ago, Patrick Bateman said:

Tax the rich?  How?  How much, what percentage?  What's the structure?  Wealth tax?  How, estate tax?  Straight income tax?  Asset tax?  Liquid?  Real Estate count?  How much, because I assure you the accuracy of tax assessment varies greatly from state to state.  Don't go to war in Iraq?  That's a sunk cost.  Would it even be enough for the sustainability of this plan?  Again, you've named some alternatives and some talking points, but you've given no plan.  This isn't specific to Bernie (although considering his candidacy brand, he probably needs to be a leader on this situation), it's inherent in most candidates.  Most have ambitions, but don't have plans.  I'm shopping for a candidate, I prefer at least a sound outline of a plan if one doesn't have exact specifics.  Don't give empty rhetoric, like "other countries do it".  That's weak.  We're not arguing about if educational reform is needed (it is), we're wondering what exactly is Bernie's proposal rather than aspiration. Again, other candidates are just as guilty

I actually agree with you.  If you’re rolling out an aggressive plan, the funding part should be well explained. A point I was making is it’s not hard to come up with some bullshit ways to pay for anything.  I’ve read aspirational Obama budget plans that could fund healthcare, cut carbon emissions, and reduce the debt by half over four years.   You just have to get creative with the math.

 My other point was the reflexive “How are you going to pay for it?” is almost irrelevant, especially when it comes to education.  Like a politician is going to say “we’re raising everyone’s taxes by 20% to pay for these kids to learn stuff.”  Either you trust the candidate to figure out the most equitable way to fund things or you don’t trust them.  Having a plan with the funding detailed is really more of a trust building exercise unless you already trust them. 

Edited by Hugo Stiglitz
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BradInATX

BradInATX 9208

Posted
Posted

 

 

 

 

 

 

As the old die, new olds are made. Being on the wrong side of history doesn't really hurt people much, they either remain bitter or they convince themselves they always supported the new way. People go very far to ignore uncomfortable truths about themselves. We need to appeal to their material interests in order to win them. 

 

 

 That's not true. They grow more and more miserable in their isolated cave of Fox News, anger, and paranoia. The Trump voters I know are more angry now than they were two years ago, and they're "winning" currently. The world isn't going to stop, despite the best efforts of olds and scared ignorant people.  

Their candidate may be winning but they still have to go to work and report to their female CEO or sell their product to a black CIO or go to their daughter's gay wedding. Their politicians may be winning but their ideas are losing and that isn't going to slow down. They know it so they cling to pyrrhic victories and pretend all is well. They know it isn't.

 

They'll soon be obsolete in a world that they can't relate to, and that has no interest in relating to them.

 

Also lol at you talking about reaching across the aisle

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Zonahorn

Zonahorn 8079

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15 hours ago, Patrick Bateman said:

Tax the rich?  How?  How much, what percentage?  What's the structure?  Wealth tax?  How, estate tax?  Straight income tax?  Asset tax?  Liquid?  Real Estate count?  How much, because I assure you the accuracy of tax assessment varies greatly from state to state.  Don't go to war in Iraq?  That's a sunk cost.  Would it even be enough for the sustainability of this plan?  Again, you've named some alternatives and some talking points, but you've given no plan.  This isn't specific to Bernie (although considering his candidacy brand, he probably needs to be a leader on this situation), it's inherent in most candidates.  Most have ambitions, but don't have plans.  I'm shopping for a candidate, I prefer at least a sound outline of a plan if one doesn't have exact specifics.  Don't give empty rhetoric, like "other countries do it".  That's weak.  We're not arguing about if educational reform is needed (it is), we're wondering what exactly is Bernie's proposal rather than aspiration. Again, other candidates are just as guilty

Weird how only Bernie gets asked how he pays for anything

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bad_teammate

bad_teammate 13221

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Posted



That's not true. They grow more and more miserable in their isolated cave of Fox News, anger, and paranoia. The Trump voters I know are more angry now than they were two years ago, and they're "winning" currently. The world isn't going to stop, despite the best efforts of olds and scared ignorant people.  Their candidate may be winning but they still have to go to work and report to their female CEO or sell their product to a black CIO or go to their daughter's gay wedding. Their politicians may be winning but their ideas are losing and that isn't going to slow down. They know it so they cling to pyrrhic victories and pretend all is well. They know it isn't.
 
They'll soon be obsolete in a world that they can't relate to, and that has no interest in relating to them.


I don't know how this disagrees with anything I said.

But go off, king.

Also lol at you talking about reaching across the aisle


Voter outreach isn't about aisles.

26% of Americans identify as Republican with another 13% as right-leaning independents. (31/17 for Dem/left-leaning)

A materially-attractive platform will get some voters who are socially conservative.
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BradInATX

BradInATX 9208

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Voter outreach isn't about aisles.

26% of Americans identify as Republican with another 13% as right-leaning independents. (31/17 for Dem/left-leaning)

A materially-attractive platform will get some voters who are socially conservative.
Because you're trying to say "it's all cyclical youngs become old and vote Republican". But those youngs who become old are going to be okay with a lot of liberal ideas. A lot of progressive ideas today will become accepted norms that nobody cares about anymore (see gay marriage).

So despite whoever is in the seats of power, society is changing and people like emawesome and that t tom guy are going to watch the world pass them by. That's my point.
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bad_teammate

bad_teammate 13221

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1 hour ago, BradInATX said:

Because you're trying to say "it's all cyclical youngs become old and vote Republican". But those youngs who become old are going to be okay with a lot of liberal ideas. A lot of progressive ideas today will become accepted norms that nobody cares about anymore (see gay marriage).

Socially liberal and fiscally liberal are entirely different things. "Socially liberal but fiscally conservative" is the mantra of Gen X and that entire group of now-adults who grew up on South Park (center-right) and the Daily Show (center-left).

Yes, the new-olds who are the new Republicans will be more open-minded about gays and blacks, but they're going to be just as protective of exploitative capital as ever, if not moreso. That's the actual Republican mission and purpose; social conservatism can come or go. Wealth and income disparity and imprisonment has skyrocketed at the same time social acceptance of marginalized group has improved.

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