2020 Democratic Nominee

[Paul Wesley 3289]

On 8/5/2019 at 8:52 PM, Larry T. Spider said:

I have shifted my position on joe biden in the days after the debate and mass shootings.

old position: anybody but joe

new position: fuck joe biden 

You know, I was anybody-but-Joe.  For a number of reasons.  He's a human gaffe machine, he's pretty hands-y with women, he's fucking old (and I'm ready for some new voices in both parties).  Really, there's almost nothing about him that I find especially insightful or inspiring. 

But for at least the short term, presidential elections are going to swing largely on Wisconsin, Michigan, Pennsylvania, etc.  And those working white people fucking love him.   

So if it turns out to be Biden vs Trump in 15 months.... at least there's that.

[BradInATX 9208]

If the democrats nominate Joe Biden, I will vote for him and strongly consider immigrating overseas anyway.   No way that doofus is capable of handling the catastrophe Trump will be leaving behind and I know this because he’s already acting like he can retire once he wins the election.   
Biden’s 2020 campaign so far looks worse than 2016 Hillary and that’s saying a lot.  No imagination, nonexistent digital strategy, and way too much entitled out of touch messaging.

Biden winning and getting Trump the hell out then playing golf every day while his advisors and cabinet (hopefully made up of a bunch of the primary candidates) do the work is pretty close to a best case scenario, presuming he wins the primary.

[zork 629]

3 hours ago, bad_teammate said:

Yes, and I'm happy to be there.

If Joe wins the presidency I'm just going to laugh quietly to myself all day and shout, "IT SURE IS NICE THAT NEITHER DONALD TRUMP NOR JOE BIDEN ARE PRESIDENT!" every 10 minutes and my children will have me committed and I will eat chocolate pudding and be content in my quiet room with nurses looking in through the window on the door.

 

[henrygandorf 29197]

24 minutes ago, BradInATX said:

1 hour ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

If the democrats nominate Joe Biden, I will vote for him and strongly consider immigrating overseas anyway.   No way that doofus is capable of handling the catastrophe Trump will be leaving behind and I know this because he’s already acting like he can retire once he wins the election.   
Biden’s 2020 campaign so far looks worse than 2016 Hillary and that’s saying a lot.  No imagination, nonexistent digital strategy, and way too much entitled out of touch messaging.

Read more  

Biden winning and getting Trump the hell out then playing golf every day while his advisors and cabinet (hopefully made up of a bunch of the primary candidates) do the work is pretty close to a best case scenario, presuming he wins the primary.

and his vp will be the presumptive nominee in 24. 

[Anastasis 23490]

His vp will be president by the time of the election in 2024. 

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

7 hours ago, henrygandorf said:

and his vp will be the presumptive nominee in 24. 

And the Republican will be a Trump2.0 (Josh Hawley type) and he will win because like Obama, Biden will do jack shit to stop some crypto fascist demagogue.  

Biden is going to leave those Midwest folks behind just as much as Trump is now.  He has zero vision for America except to keep the corporate overlords happy as they squeeze the last few nickels out of an already poor and overworked middle class.  

But hey, at least he beat Trump in 2020 so woo-hoo! 

/rant

Edited August 7, 2019 by Hugo Stiglitz

[Zonahorn 8079]

6 hours ago, 6th Street said:

Man his stuttering and foolishness will endear himself to the very states that will decide this election - WI, MI, and PA. "Look, he talks just like us!"

These are simple folks. Sons of the soil, if you will. They just want to hear about jobs and want to feel like they're not being forgotten. 

You know, morons.

[Loch Ness Monster 3533]

Bernie was really good on the Joe Rogan podcast.

Hour+ long conversations is crucial.

Still on team Warren for now though.

[horncyclist 1391]

He's going to follow it up with a water has contributed to wetness speech. Such bold leadership. 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/biden-in-iowa-speech-plans-to-say-trump-has-fanned-the-flames-of-white-supremacy/2019/08/07/dce7c17c-b903-11e9-b3b4-2bb69e8c4e39_story.html

 

[Fozzz 152]

This is why I support Mayor Pete bc private health insurance is fucking awesome.

 

[RomaVicta 30033]

That's horrible.

[Js1 85612]

#Murica

[BradInATX 9208]

7 hours ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

And the Republican will be a Trump2.0 (Josh Hawley type) and he will win because like Obama, Biden will do jack shit to stop some crypto fascist demagogue.  

Biden is going to leave those Midwest folks behind just as much as Trump is now.  He has zero vision for America except to keep the corporate overlords happy as they squeeze the last few nickels out of an already poor and overworked middle class.  

But hey, at least he beat Trump in 2020 so woo-hoo! 

/rant

Hopefully your ability to see the future here is on par with your ability to see the future during the Mueller investigation. I'm confident it is. This whole "omg there will be a backlash" thing is more than likely overblown. If the Democrats had nominated anyone that wasn't the worst possible candidate last time, they would have won a 3rd term in a row, which would be the first time it happened for either party in my lifetime and probably yours. You've fallen prey to the echo chamber.

Edited August 7, 2019 by BradInATX

[Js1 85612]

4 minutes ago, BradInATX said:

Hopefully your ability to see the future here is on par with your ability to see the future during the Mueller investigation. I'm confident it is. This whole "omg there will be a backlash" thing is more than likely overblown. If the Democrats had nominated anyone that wasn't the worst possible candidate last time, they would have won a 3rd term in a row, which would be the first time it happened for either party in my lifetime and probably yours. You've fallen prey to the echo chamber.

Unless there's a bunch of sub-30 year olds surfing Surly, it happened in 1988 (Reagan, Reagan, Bush 41). 

[troph 24914]

You know, I was anybody-but-Joe.  For a number of reasons.  He's a human gaffe machine, he's pretty hands-y with women, he's fucking old (and I'm ready for some new voices in both parties).  Really, there's almost nothing about him that I find especially insightful or inspiring. 
But for at least the short term, presidential elections are going to swing largely on Wisconsin, Michigan, Pennsylvania, etc.  And those working white people fucking love him.   
So if it turns out to be Biden vs Trump in 15 months.... at least there's that.

Put the hellraiser version of Beto on the ticket and watch Texas flip early. The pants shitting on the R side will be epic. Game set match.

[BradInATX 9208]

Just now, Js1 said:

Unless there's a bunch of sub-30 year olds surfing Surly, it happened in 1988 (Reagan, Reagan, Bush 41). 

Well, fair enough. But I was like 10 years old.

[Mojo Hand 4580]

10 minutes ago, BradInATX said:

Hopefully your ability to see the future here is on par with your ability to see the future during the Mueller investigation. I'm confident it is. This whole "omg there will be a backlash" thing is more than likely overblown. If the Democrats had nominated anyone that wasn't the worst possible candidate last time, they would have won a 3rd term in a row, which would be the first time it happened for either party in my lifetime and probably yours. You've fallen prey to the echo chamber.

It's not about a backlash in the future; it's about continuing the same patterns that have dominated over the last 30-40 years.  Trump squeaking by is just a repeat of W squeaking by over Gore.  Before that, yes, the GOP had 3 straight terms under Reagan/Bush. 

What are the top 3 successes of moderate Dems over the last 30 years?  I keep asking and nobody ever answers.  I really want to know, what are the achievements that even make it worth fighting for? 

The real answer to that question, I think, is "we denied Republicans a few years in the White House."  And nominating Biden will just continue that approach, buying a few years until the next, even worse Republican.   It's a loser strategy. 

[BradInATX 9208]

26 minutes ago, Mojo Hand said:

It's not about a backlash in the future; it's about continuing the same patterns that have dominated over the last 30-40 years.  Trump squeaking by is just a repeat of W squeaking by over Gore.  Before that, yes, the GOP had 3 straight terms under Reagan/Bush. 

What are the top 3 successes of moderate Dems over the last 30 years?  I keep asking and nobody ever answers.  I really want to know, what are the achievements that even make it worth fighting for? 

The real answer to that question, I think, is "we denied Republicans a few years in the White House."  And nominating Biden will just continue that approach, buying a few years until the next, even worse Republican.   It's a loser strategy. 

1. FMLA

2. Saving the US auto industry and bailing us out of a terrible recession - bonus, both Clinton and Obama presiding over the two best economies in modern times. I realize these aren't even things they campaigned on but it seems that moderate Dems have been the only adults in the room re:the economy in my lifetime (Republicans certainly aren't), and I like adults in the room when it comes to our economy.

3a. Huge investment into green energy and the environment. The US has consistently led the world in reduction of greenhouse gases. We've reduced more than the entire EU.
3b. Tremendous improvements in LGBTQ rights. Marriage, repeal of don't ask don't tell, etc.

There's plenty more. Clinton did a ton for education. The problem with Dems in the rust belt isn't a lack of achievements,  it's that they've forgotten their union/blue collar roots lately. Hillary didn't even set foot in Wisconsin, FFS.

Edited August 7, 2019 by BradInATX

[Mojo Hand 4580]

29 minutes ago, BradInATX said:

1. FMLA

2. Saving the US auto industry and bailing us out of a terrible recession - bonus, both Clinton and Obama presiding over the two best economies in modern times. I realize these aren't even things they campaigned on but it seems that moderate Dems have been the only adults in the room re:the economy in my lifetime (Republicans certainly aren't), and I like adults in the room when it comes to our economy.

3a. Huge investment into green energy and the environment. The US has consistently led the world in reduction of greenhouse gases. We've reduced more than the entire EU.
3b. Tremendous improvements in LGBTQ rights. Marriage, repeal of don't ask don't tell, etc.

There's plenty more. The problem with Dems in the rust belt isn't a lack of achievements,  it's that they've forgotten their union/blue collar roots lately. Hillary didn't even set foot in Wisconsin, FFS.

I'm not saying those are awful things, but damn that is just treading water at best. The FMLA is woefully inadequate.   The moderation of the stimulus — reducing the spending that economists said we needed and substituting tax cuts for some of the spending — is what choked the recovery and denied Obama the credit for his (muted) success, leading to years of Republican gains in Congress and then Trump (including in Michigan, where Dems saved the auto industry!).   After 16 years of Dem leadership over good/improving economies, we have ever-higher income inequality, and both Dems were replaced by Republicans.   Green energy investment is abysmal and being rolled back under Trump at a time when the climate crisis is worse than ever.  And I don't see how LGBTQ rights is even remotely attributable to moderate Dems.  It happened in spite of them, and they were the last Dems to jump aboard the train after "evolving." 

Meanwhile Republicans have gotten massive tax cuts enacted over and over again over the last 40 years.   Massive military spending and disastrous wars.  Abortion rights greatly restricted across the country to the point where many places have no access.   Extensive gerrymandering to increase their power while holding only a minority of voters.   Massive deregulation across every federal agency.    Decades of Supreme Court rulings. 

Republicans have achieved major structural change in every facet of government while we got... unpaid maternity leave.   It's no wonder we keep losing.   We need to return to the Democratic Party of the New Deal, the Civil Rights Act, Social Security, Medicare, and liberal Supreme Court rulings.    That Democratic Party dominated American politics until the 1980s. 

Edited August 7, 2019 by Mojo Hand

[BradInATX 9208]

11 minutes ago, Mojo Hand said:

I'm not saying those are awful things, but damn that is just treading water at best. The FMLA is woefully inadequate.   The moderation of the stimulus — reducing the spending that economists said we needed and substituting tax cuts for some of the spending — is what choked the recovery and denied Obama the credit for his (muted) success, leading to years of Republican gains in Congress and then Trump (including in Michigan, where Dems saved the auto industry!).   After 16 years of Dem leadership over good/improving économies, we have ever-higher income inequality, and both were Dems were replaced by Republicans.   Green energy investment is abysmal and being rolled back under Trump at a time when the climate crisis .  And I don't see how LGBTQ rights is even remotely attributable to moderate Dems.  It happened in spite of them, and they were the last Dems to jump aboard the train after "evolving." 

Meanwhile Republicans have gotten massive tax cuts enacted over and over again over the last 40 years.   Massive military spending and disastrous wars.  Abortion rights greatly restricted across the country to the point where many places have no access.   Extensive gerrymandering to increase their power while holding only a minority of voters.   Massive deregulation across every federal agency.    Decades of Supreme Court rulings. 

Republicans have achieved major structural change in every facet of government while we got... unpaid maternity leave.   It's no wonder we keep losing.   We need to return to the Democratic Party of the New Deal, the Civil Rights Act, Social Security, Medicare, and liberal Supreme Court rulings.    That Democratic Party dominated American politics until the 1980s. 

I mean, this is why nobody engaged your question, because it's obvious you'd nitpick at everything. 

FMLA might seem inadequate compared to Europe now, but when Clinton did it, it was a huge sea change and he spent a ton of political capital on it. It's hard to imagine a world without FMLA now, but it didn't used to be. We have it because of Bill Clinton. Would you prefer we didn't?

Your nitpicking of Obama's stimulus is weird. He brought us out of an absolutely terrible recession and it brought us an unbelievable 10 year run. Are you saying he didn't do a good job? You have your opinion that he didn't do it right but facts > opinions and the fact is that the results were fantastic. Results are all that matter.

The rest of it is you saying that Republicans are rolling Dems' accomplishments back, so it doesn't count. But you can make that argument about anything. You don't think the next Democratic president is going to roll back every single thing Trump does by executive order? That's how it works. It doesn't mean Trump didn't change the trajectory of our country.

If your point is that Dems don't play the political game correctly and thus end up losing more then they should, then I agree. But that doesn't change the fact that both Clinton and Obama have significant achievements. And I can pretty well guarantee you that if you replaced the awful combo of Al Gore and Hillary Clinton with phenoms like Bill/Obama, the country would be far, far more left than it is today. But Republicans play the game better and thus our country is represented to be more right than it really is. That much you and I completely agree on.

FWIW - I'm with you about  Obama/ACA. He screwed that up. He should have jammed what he really wanted down their throats instead of that "compromise" bullshit.

Edited August 7, 2019 by BradInATX

[Mojo Hand 4580]

2 minutes ago, BradInATX said:

I mean, this is why nobody engaged your question, because it's obvious you'd nitpick at everything. 

FMLA might seem inadequate compared to Europe now, but when Clinton did it, it was a huge sea change and he spent a ton of political capital on it. It's hard to imagine a world without FMLA now, but it didn't used to be. We have it because of Bill Clinton. Would you prefer we didn't?

Your nitpicking of Obama's stimulus is weird. He brought us out of an absolutely terrible recession and it brought us an unbelievable 10 year run. Are you saying he didn't do a good job? You have your opinion that he didn't do it right but facts > opinions and the fact is that the results were fantastic. Results are all that matter.

The rest of it is you saying that Republicans are rolling Dems' accomplishments back, so it doesn't count. But you can make that argument about anything. You don't think the next Democratic president is going to roll back every single thing Trump does by executive order? That's how it works. It doesn't mean Trump didn't change the trajectory of our country.

If your point is that Dems don't play the political game correctly and thus end up losing more then they should, then I agree. But that doesn't change the fact that both Clinton and Obama have significant achievements. And I can pretty well guarantee you that if you replaced the awful combo of Al Gore and Hillary Clinton with phenoms like Bill/Obama, the country would be far, far more left than it is today. But Republicans play the game better and thus our country is represented to be more right than it really is. That much you and I completely agree on.

FWIW - I'm with you about  Obama/ACA. He screwed that up. He should have jammed what he really wanted down their throats instead of that "compromise" bullshit.

Well, you wouldn't have to worry about nitpicking if there were actual major progressive successes to point to.   Nobody can nitpick the Republican dominance over the last 40 years because it's been a massive success (for their ideology, not the country).   I mean, massive tax cuts, deregulation, Supreme Court dominance — that's immune from nitpicking. 

Clinton and Obama have a few significant achievements, but they're not particularly progressive achievements.   Saving the economy is a good thing, but ideologically neutral.   Obamacare was a Republican way of addressing a Democratic concern and caused more harm that good (taking into account how it led to another Republican takeover).    Much of what Clinton did was actually right of center. 

It's not about playing the political game correctly and losing more than they should.  That you and other moderates think that is exactly why Dems lose more than they should.   You are playing a game at the margins while the GOP makes sea changes in an ideological war.   Dem achievements get rolled back while the GOP's structural changes endure and grow.   You think something is a success even when it only lasts 2 years before getting rolled back, because it was a "win" at the time and hopefully influences someone down the road.   Republicans count wins by the decades that their policies last.    Dems used to do that too, with things like social security and Medicare. 

You need to start questioning your assumption that political gamesmanship is the reason Dems couldn't build off of Clinton and Obama. The reason they couldn't build on it was that the public writ large didn't give Dems credit for the things they did.  The reason they didn't give Dems credit for those things is that the Dems had no ideological principles to ground those policies in, and because they didn't do nearly enough good among the people who needed help the most.  That's all thanks to moderation.   

[BradInATX 9208]

23 minutes ago, Mojo Hand said:

 

You need to start questioning your assumption that political gamesmanship is the reason Dems couldn't build off of Clinton and Obama. The reason they couldn't build on it was that the public writ large didn't give Dems credit for the things they did.  The reason they didn't give Dems credit for those things is that the Dems had no ideological principles to ground those policies in, and because they didn't do nearly enough good among the people who needed help the most.  That's all thanks to moderation.   

Source?

[Mojo Hand 4580]

5 minutes ago, BradInATX said:

Source?

Source

[BradInATX 9208]

19 minutes ago, Mojo Hand said:

Source

You're sourcing yourself? So you're admitting that you're stating your own opinion as fact?

Anyway, can you name three major accomplishments in the same time period from the Republicans? The three you named are far more flimsy than you say the Democrats' achievements are. Trump's tax cuts are going to be rolled back, so by your measure of "if they don't last forever, they don't count", that one is bunk. Deregulation was largely rolled back by Obama and will be rolled back by the next Democratic president. So nope there. And the Supreme Court, I suppose it's the moderates' fault that the judges happened to die when Republicans were in office? Our bad, I guess.

This notion that the Republicans are winning is simple impatience by people with far-left beliefs. In my adult life we've seen:
- Gay rights improve
- Huge steps in our climate change efforts
- Progress in the wage gap for both minorities and females (slow, but it's there)
- Reduced American imperialism (hell we haven't started a war in what, 17 years?)
- An inevitable movement towards weed legalization, and reductions on putting minor drug offenders in prison
- Movement towards a single-payer healthcare system. This is 100% inevitable, even if it's not overnight like you'd like

Gun rights have mostly stayed the same. Abortion is mostly the same. 

Hell, even what Trump is doing with cancelling NAFTA, increasing tariffs, etc. are populist ideas that were far more commonly found in the far-left crevices of our country than in conservative hearts and minds. The far-left hated when Clinton passed the old shitlib moderate NAFTA. 

The only thing that's really continued the path to the right is the corporatism of our country and the wealth gap. Which I'm pretty much on your side on. We need to change that. The problem is that the right has weaponized poor white idiots in numbers to continue the status quo. Eating leaves to own the libs and whatnot. But the thing that you and the far left need to realize is that the "middle" of that group of people that we need to win might be in the range of "centrists", but they're not corporatists. There might be some venn diagram overlap beween "corporatist" and "centrist", but they're two separate circles. There's a difference, despite the bad faith efforts of some on the far-left to group the two together (and cut off their nose to spite their face). We should be putting out populist and anti-corporate messages to win those people, not instant socialism. Those are two different things. And Elizabeth Warren seems to be the one in this race that understands that right now.

But anyway, the teeth-gnashing about the country taking a hard right turn isn't accurate. We are moving left. It's just not as fast as you'd like. We're not Europe yet.
 

Edited August 7, 2019 by BradInATX

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

1 hour ago, BradInATX said:

But anyway, the teeth-gnashing about the country taking a hard right turn isn't accurate. We are moving left. It's just not as fast as you'd like. We're not Europe yet.

This country has been taking a right turn my entire life.  9/11 moved the entire country hard right almost instantaneously.  We are still suffering from that paradigm shift.  Obama stopped some of the bleeding then Trumpism stabbed this country in the heart.  Biden will be like a putting a bandaid on a gunshot wound just before the right comes back to throw our dead corpse overboard.  

I have yet to see any significant meaningful change for the better coming from the left because their agenda has been almost exclusively containing a right that is hellbent on destruction.  

Coming from our elected leaders, this country doesn’t even have a purpose anymore.  That’s what needs to change. 

Edited August 7, 2019 by Hugo Stiglitz

[David Dennison 18951]

3 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

This country has been taking a right turn my entire life.  9/11 moved the entire country hard right almost instantaneously.  We are still suffering from that paradigm shift.  Obama stopped some of the bleeding then Trumpism stabbed this country in the heart.  Biden will be like a putting a bandaid on a gunshot wound just before the right comes back to throw our dead corpse overboard.  

I have yet to see any meaningful change for the better coming from the left because their agenda has been almost exclusively containing a right that is hellbent on destruction.  

Coming from our elected leaders, this country doesn’t even have a purpose anymore.  That’s what needs to change. 

I was born during the Nixon administration. This country is much further left than it was then. 

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

1 minute ago, David Dennison said:

I was born during the Nixon administration. This country is much further left than it was then. 

Carter was President when I was born and I have no memory of him.  Reagan was my first President. 

[David Dennison 18951]

Just now, Hugo Stiglitz said:

Carter was President when I was born and I have no memory of him.  Reagan was my first President. 

This country is further left than it was during the Reagan administration. 

 

 

[F250 28826]

1 hour ago, BradInATX said:

Hell, even what Trump is doing with cancelling NAFTA, increasing tariffs, etc. are populist ideas that were far more commonly found in the far-left crevices of our country than in conservative hearts and minds. The far-left hated when Clinton passed the old shitlib moderate NAFTA. 

Do you think the GOP embraced mercantilism because they are shifting left or because they went further Right with Nationalism?

 

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

6 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

This country is further left than it was during the Reagan administration. 

The population might be more left but our political power is not.  We didn’t have concentration camps and state sponsored kidnapping in the 1980s.  We didn’t have a corporate surveillance state either.  We used to value international human rights or at least say we did.  We used to be an example to the world, at least rhetorically.  Now we are a global embarrassment exporting terrorism from the White House. 

Our democracy has been corrupted, possibly past the point of no return since Citizens United.

Things have not moved left. 

[BradInATX 9208]

This country has been taking a right turn my entire life.  9/11 moved the entire country hard right almost instantaneously.  We are still suffering from that paradigm shift.  Obama stopped some of the bleeding then Trumpism stabbed this country in the heart.  Biden will be like a putting a bandaid on a gunshot wound just before the right comes back to throw our dead corpse overboard.  
I have yet to see any significant meaningful change for the better coming from the left because their agenda has been almost exclusively containing a right that is hellbent on destruction.  
Coming from our elected leaders, this country doesn’t even have a purpose anymore.  That’s what needs to change. 

Outside of your last sentence which is true, this is the far-left version of old people swearing up and down that crime is way worse than it used to be and kids get abducted from their yards constantly, despite hard data showing otherwise. They, and you, are overexposed and caught up in a vicious case of confirmation bias driven by emotional over-investment.

[BradInATX 9208]

Do you think the GOP embraced mercantilism because they are shifting left or because they went further Right with Nationalism?
 

Obvious. Never implied otherwise.

[Mojo Hand 4580]

43 minutes ago, BradInATX said:

You're sourcing yourself? So you're admitting that you're stating your own opinion as fact?

Anyway, can you name three major accomplishments in the same time period from the Republicans? The three you named are far more flimsy than you say the Democrats' achievements are. Trump's tax cuts are going to be rolled back, so by your measure of "if they don't last forever, they don't count", that one is bunk. Deregulation was largely rolled back by Obama and will be rolled back by the next Democratic president. So nope there. And the Supreme Court, I suppose it's the moderates' fault that the judges happened to die when Republicans were in office? Our bad, I guess.

This notion that the Republicans are winning is simple impatience by people with far-left beliefs. In my adult life we've seen:
- Gay rights improve
- Huge steps in our climate change efforts
- Progress in the wage gap for both minorities and females (slow, but it's there)
- Reduced American imperialism (hell we haven't started a war in what, 17 years?)
- An inevitable movement towards weed legalization, and reductions on putting minor drug offenders in prison
- Movement towards a single-payer healthcare system. This is 100% inevitable, even if it's not overnight like you'd like

Gun rights have mostly stayed the same. Abortion is mostly the same. 

Hell, even what Trump is doing with cancelling NAFTA, increasing tariffs, etc. are populist ideas that were far more commonly found in the far-left crevices of our country than in conservative hearts and minds. The far-left hated when Clinton passed the old shitlib moderate NAFTA. 

The only thing that's really continued the path to the right is the corporatism of our country and the wealth gap. Which I'm pretty much on your side on. We need to change that. The problem is that the right has weaponized poor white idiots in numbers to continue the status quo. Eating leaves to own the libs and whatnot. But the thing that you and the far left need to realize is that the "middle" of that group of people that we need to win might be in the range of "centrists", but they're not corporatists. There might be some venn diagram overlap beween "corporatist" and "centrist", but they're two separate circles. There's a difference, despite the bad faith efforts of some on the far-left to group the two together (and cut off their nose to spite their face).

But anyway, the teeth-gnashing about the country taking a hard right turn isn't accurate. We are moving left. It's just not as fast as you'd like. We're not Europe yet.
 

No, I'm stating my opinion as opinion.   Do you need fact and opinion to be explicitly labeled to tell the difference?  

I've already named major, long-term Republican "accomplishments."   Are you really unaware of those long-term trends?   None of these things have been "rolled back" by past moderate Dems, and none of them will be. 

We all know what happened starting around 1980:

And how has that extreme departure from moderation impacted Republicans' electoral success since 1980?  Do you really need a chart to know how successful they've been eschewing moderation? 

And that electoral success, in turn, has impacted the Supreme Court, which is my point there. 

As to your list:

Gay rights — not from moderates, who were the last to "evolve."  Activism from the far left pushed society on this. 

Climate change — worse than ever before.   How is that a success?  Our emissions since 1990, yay? 

Race wage gap — huh? 

Gender wage gap — ok, it's narrowed a tiny bit

War — huh?  We're still fighting in Afghanistan and Obama's drone program is bigger than ever.   Moderate Dems were all for the Iraq War.  

Weed legalization — how is this because of moderate Dems?  It's been from the far left and libertarian right, and that it's happening isn't really about ideology. 

Single-payer —   this is from the far left, not moderates.   And it hasn't happened yet. 

Abortion and gun control — you have to be joking. 

 

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

33 minutes ago, BradInATX said:

1 hour ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

This country has been taking a right turn my entire life.  9/11 moved the entire country hard right almost instantaneously.  We are still suffering from that paradigm shift.  Obama stopped some of the bleeding then Trumpism stabbed this country in the heart.  Biden will be like a putting a bandaid on a gunshot wound just before the right comes back to throw our dead corpse overboard.  
I have yet to see any significant meaningful change for the better coming from the left because their agenda has been almost exclusively containing a right that is hellbent on destruction.  
Coming from our elected leaders, this country doesn’t even have a purpose anymore.  That’s what needs to change. 

Read more  

Outside of your last sentence which is true, this is the far-left version of old people swearing up and down that crime is way worse than it used to be and kids get abducted from their yards constantly, despite hard data showing otherwise. They, and you, are overexposed and caught up in a vicious case of confirmation bias driven by emotional over-investment.

Whatever dude, a middle class kid coming out of high school today is facing a lifetime of crippling debt, astronomically expensive medical bills, and insurance premiums.  He’s more likely to live a life just trying to get by and never looking forward to a retirement.  And this is with an above average paying job.  He’ll be paying thousands of dollars a year just for a phone/internet bill.  God forbid this guy want to start a family without declaring bankruptcy.   It wasn’t that way when I was coming out of high school.   But bootstraps because free market and every other bullshit talking point coming from our political leaders.  

Isn’t freedom awesome! 

[Guest Lobo]

 remind me who had the idea for employer-based health insurance ?   

[BradInATX 9208]

No, I'm stating my opinion as opinion.   Do you need fact and opinion to be explicitly labeled to tell the difference?  
I've already named major, long-term Republican "accomplishments."   Are you really unaware of those long-term trends?   None of these things have been "rolled back" by past moderate Dems, and none of them will be. 








We all know what happened starting around 1980:


And how has that extreme departure from moderation impacted Republicans' electoral success since 1980?  Do you really need a chart to know how successful they've been eschewing moderation? 


And that electoral success, in turn, has impacted the Supreme Court, which is my point there. 
As to your list:
Gay rights — not from moderates, who were the last to "evolve."  Activism from the far left pushed society on this. 
Climate change — worse than ever before.   How is that a success?  Our emissions since 1990, yay? 

Race wage gap — huh? 

Gender wage gap — ok, it's narrowed a tiny bit

War — huh?  We're still fighting in Afghanistan and Obama's drone program is bigger than ever.   Moderate Dems were all for the Iraq War.  
Weed legalization — how is this because of moderate Dems?  It's been from the far left and libertarian right, and that it's happening isn't really about ideology. 
Single-payer —   this is from the far left, not moderates.   And it hasn't happened yet. 
Abortion and gun control — you have to be joking. 
 

Lol. You posted a gender chart that proves my point. You showed a climate chart that proves my point. The rest is income inequality which I already said was a problem.

You argue with me when I say Republicans are better at winning, then spend 2 hours telling me that Republicans are better at winning.

You are just arguing to argue.

Ok cool, hook em.

[Mojo Hand 4580]

1 minute ago, BradInATX said:

Lol. You posted a gender chart that proves my point. You showed a climate chart that proves my point. The rest is income inequality which I already said was a problem.

You argue with me when I say Republicans are better at winning, then spend 2 hours telling me that Republicans are better at winning.

You are just arguing to argue.

Ok cool, hook em.
 

Lulz.  Yeah, no response from you is exactly what I expected. 

[BradInATX 9208]

Lulz.  Yeah, no response from you is exactly what I expected. 

There's nothing to respond to. Every point you made either:

- proved my point

- shows that you have no idea how charts work (pay gaps and the abortion chart that doesn't back anything you say up)

- is agreeing with a point of mine that you were arguing against 2 hours ago.

 

I'm not even sure you know what you're arguing about anymore.

 

I can't force you to learn how charts and visualizations and supply and demand work. I can't force you to make intelligent, good faith arguments. But I can end this discussion. Peace.

 

 

 

 

 

[Mojo Hand 4580]

Just now, BradInATX said:

There's nothing to respond to. Every point you made either:
- proved my point
- shows that you have no idea how charts work (pay gaps and the abortion chart that doesn't back anything you say up)
- is agreeing with a point of mine that you were arguing against 2 hours ago.

I can't force you to learn how charts and visualizations and supple and demand work. I can't force you to make intelligent, good faith arguments. But I can end this discussion. Peace.

Sounds like you learned a little about declaring victory from our president.   Republican policy successes in decreasing taxes on the wealthy, shutting down abortion clinics, deregulating the financial industry, partisan gerrymandering, and incarcerating criminals actually proves you were right in denying that Republicans have had major accomplishments in enacting their agenda over the last 30 years.   And a grossly inadequate response to the gender wage gap and climate change proves that moderate Dems have been massively successful in making the progressive agenda a reality. 

We should all sit back and enjoy how well policy has gone for Dems since the Reagan Revolution!  

If I were you, I'd want to end this discussion too.   Adios! 

[henrygandorf 29197]

On 8/6/2019 at 2:00 PM, Mojo Hand said:

New Q poll shows Warren continuing her steady rise as Harris falls back to the pack:

 

this poll tells me what the previous polls told me - once liz gets bernie's supporters, she'll be on even ground with biden and can eventually pass him and pull away.  is there any worry among the bros that bernie will stay in too long and cost warren a shot at this?

[Js1 85612]

The bros are committed. Warren is stealing Harris’ supporters. 

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

26 minutes ago, henrygandorf said:

this poll tells me what the previous polls told me - once liz gets bernie's supporters, she'll be on even ground with biden and can eventually pass him and pull away.  is there any worry among the bros that bernie will stay in too long and cost warren a shot at this?

Bernie is going to say in until the end because he’s Bernie.  He believes in his movement and he’s never been a team player (yes I know he supported Hillary in the end but he went all the way to the end).

 

[F250 28826]

8 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

Bernie is going to say in until the end because he’s Bernie.  He believes in his movement and he’s never been a team player (yes I know he supported Hillary in the end but he went all the way to the end).

 

It kinda sounds like you are bitching about Bernie staying in this race until the very end when the race just started.

 

[bad_teammate 13225]

Imagine me posting this: "I would support Liz, but you guys are so mean about Bernie that I can't. Liz Bros are so ridiculous that they hurt her support."

 

LOL JK I'm not a bitch

[henrygandorf 29197]

4 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

Imagine me posting this: "I would support Liz, but you guys are so mean about Bernie that I can't. Liz Bros are so ridiculous that they hurt her support."

 

LOL JK I'm not a bitch

what are you talking about?

[henrygandorf 29197]

21 minutes ago, Js1 said:

The bros are committed. Warren is stealing Harris’ supporters. 

how do you figure?

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

6 minutes ago, F250 said:

It kinda sounds like you are bitching about Bernie staying in this race until the very end when the race just started.

Not bitching.  Just stating the truth about Bernie.  For Liz to get the nomination she is going to have to overcome Biden and Bernie.  She is going to have to earn it.  If she doesn’t get it because Bernie hung around too long, I won’t blame him but many will if we get stuck with Biden as a consequence. 

[Born to Run 6569]

The bros are committed. Warren is stealing Harris’ supporters. 

That's a bummer man!/ GIF

[bad_teammate 13225]

The guy who is #2 in the polls and has the most donors and volunteers by far should drop out already.

[Mojo Hand 4580]

Yeah, Warren is going to have to win the nomination without Bernie supporters while fending off Bernie among the support she's building.  But, winning a presidential nomination is tough (when the party doesn't hand it to you).  It'll make her a stronger candidate if she wins.