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2020 Democratic Nominee

used2b

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Huckleberry
Huckleberry

No it doesn't, this is absurd selfishness on a grand scale. Nobody is getting punished. My wife and I paid off our student loans, and you know what I think about younger people or even those in our ge

henrygandorf
henrygandorf

i’ve really enjoyed the 900 posts from bt explaining how bernie people aren’t aggressive, obsessive, and very-online.  truly a learning experience. 

Bill Clinton
Bill Clinton

3rd or 4th thread but whos counting.  Name recognition and ability to collect money is most important to the Democratic Party. They aren't trying to win 2020, they are trying to rebuild and colle

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DixonHur

DixonHur 11,960

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36 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

This has been the Dem move for decades and it has accomplished less than nothing.

Well if it has, they haven't been very vocal about it, because all I hear about is expanded background checks and closing gun show/private sales loop holes...but either way now the public opinion is in their favor. 

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tantric superman

tantric superman 4,668

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54 minutes ago, DixonHur said:

I hope you're right, but as I've said, I think it was a mistake.

I agree with the sentiment, i.e. gun control, but words matter

I think the treating guns like cars angle... insurance, licenses, registration...is the way to sell it, not threats of confiscation.

The Right's been fear-mongering that line for decades about the Left's goal and now they have a tweet and a soundbite to rally the troops.

Again, I hope I'm wrong, but the Dems have a history of giving up big leads and squandering opportunities.

Agreed.  I still think Beto lost to Cruz by not being more law and order on immigration.  And I think people will have too visceral a response to the confiscation argument. 

I've got an AR-15 owning son in law who is very down on Trump.  With many former NRA types willing to accept some limitations, I'm not sure why you go for broke.

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SquishMitten

SquishMitten 10,497

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Don’t know how anybody could say Biden did a good job. I thought it was a clear indication his time has passed. Admittedly, he is by far the most “presidential looking.” From his demeanor, to his message, he is what a president was always supposed to be. But that has changed. Presidential looking just isn’t a relevant standard anymore.

I think he only had one actual winning argument, but he failed to communicate it well. When everyone was talking about EOs, he made a Constitutional argument. I think he was correct on some of that, but they tee’d him up to say something like “what Trump is doing is unconstitutional. We shouldn’t be advocating doing the same stuff. We have to return to strict adherence to the law rather than turning this slippery slope into a water slide.” It was clear to me that’s where he stands on the issue, but he did such a poor job with it that I think 95% of the people watching didn’t catch it.

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DixonHur

DixonHur 11,960

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Biden exemplifies the problem with the Democratic party establishment.  Being so out of touch with the common man is why we have Trump. 

Everybody not part of the Dem leadership or pundit class could see he's not fit for the job.  Better than Trump, yes, but so was Hillary and we all know how that ended.

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David Dennison

David Dennison 19,543

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Posted (edited)
31 minutes ago, DixonHur said:

Biden exemplifies the problem with the Democratic party establishment.  Being so out of touch with the common man is why we have Trump. 

Everybody not part of the Dem leadership or pundit class could see he's not fit for the job.  Better than Trump, yes, but so was Hillary and we all know how that ended.

It's not just the establishment. It's an unfortunately large numbers of Democratic voters. The common man supports Joe Biden.

The left wing of the Democratic Party is not the common man.

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RollLeft

RollLeft 5,091

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3 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

No sure about that.  I think the right would be more comfortable knowing who their opponent would be well in advance.  Kinda like in 2016

My point is the right is least concerned about facing Joe hence the smiles at the left continuing to back and trot out this old nag.  

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Bozo_Casanova

Bozo_Casanova 26,851

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1 hour ago, David Dennison said:

Wow. That's awful.

Is it? I mean, the legacy of redlining and banking discrimination destroyed the foundations of minority capitalism in America. That's a much more present problem than things that are harder to quantify. And while it may hurt your delicate sensibilities to hear it, the fact is that Title One schools are badly underfunded and understaffed, and the teachers at those schools are very much supplementing  all kinds of deficiencies that are brought into the school from the home. Somehow I guess that evaded your attention.

Poor kids come to school not just hungry but lonely and deprived of companionship and interaction. They DO hear millions fewer words, because their parents are working to survive and they can't enrich their kids schooling the way that your parents did and you evidently took for granted.  Teachers are making up for all that.

My wife taught at a title one school. My daughter attended one. You've got kids coming to school with roaches crawling out of their backpacks because their parents have to raise them in substandard housing where they are literally competing for space with bugs because you don't make it a priority to raise hell with your city council to force their landlords into code compliance. You have teachers literally buying RID shampoo and de-lousing their students. When my daughter would come in tardy at times she was always offered a breakfast bar paid for out of staff's pocket because the presumption is that the kids don't eat breakfast or lunch except at school.  

Do you and @Hugo Stiglitz even know what poverty is? It's comprehensive. It's not just economic. It's cultural. It's emotional. It's hunger, not just for food but conversation and community and time and fresh air and cleanliness and emotional support. it's real and present and not just code for "black" like you and the too-much-mouse-progressive seem to assume, which is quite telling. You know who I don't see whining about this today? Long term career teachers who work in Title One schools at the primary level. 

Joe Biden is too old to be up there and I'm probably team Liz at this point, but this whole pearl-clutching episode is prissy Twitterverse bullshit and you need to get over yourselves. With Democrats like you, we don't need Republicans. 

Edited by Bozo_Casanova
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Bozo_Casanova

Bozo_Casanova 26,851

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58 minutes ago, DixonHur said:

Biden exemplifies the problem with the Democratic party establishment.  Being so out of touch with the common man is why we have Trump. 

Affluent post grads whose experience with scarcity is limited to competing for parking at Whole Foods aren't in the ideal position to asses who is out of touch. 

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Hugo Stiglitz

Hugo Stiglitz 23,367

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10 minutes ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

Is it? I mean, the legacy of redlining and banking discrimination destroyed the foundations of minority capitalism in America. That's a much more present problem than things that are harder to quantify. And while it may hurt your delicate sensibilities to hear it, the fact is that Title One schools are badly underfunded and understaffed, and the teachers at those schools are very much supplementing  all kinds of deficiencies that are brought into the school from the home. Somehow I guess that evaded your attention.

Poor kids come to school not just hungry but lonely and deprived of companionship and interaction. They DO hear millions fewer words, because their parents are working to survive and they can't enrich their kids schooling the way that your parents did and you evidently took for granted.  Teachers are making up for all that.

My wife taught at a title one school. My daughter attended one. You've got kids coming to school with roaches crawling out of their backpacks because their parents have to raise them in substandard housing where they are literally competing for space with bugs because you don't make it a priority to raise hell with your city council to force their landlords into code compliance. You have teachers literally buying RID shampoo and de-lousing their students. When my daughter would come in tardy at times she was always offered a breakfast bar paid for out of staff's pocket because the presumption is that the kids don't eat breakfast or lunch except at school.  

Do you and @Hugo Stiglitz even know what poverty is? It's comprehensive. It's not just economic. It's cultural. It's emotional. It's hunger, not just for food but conversation and community and time and fresh air and cleanliness and emotional support. it's real and present and not just code for "black" like you and the too-much-mouse-progressive seem to assume, which is quite telling. You know who I don't see whining about this today? Long term career teachers who work in Title One schools at the primary level. 

Joe Biden is too old to be up there and I'm probably team Liz at this point, but this whole pearl-clutching episode is prissy Twitterverse bullshit and you need to get over yourselves. With Democrats like you, we don't need Republicans. 

The question Biden was asked was about overcoming America’s original sin of slavery.  

His response was incoherent and all over the place.  It ended with shit that barely made sense.  

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DixonHur

DixonHur 11,960

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43 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

It's not just the establishment. It's an unfortunately large numbers of Democratic voters. The common man supports Joe Biden.

The left wing of the Democratic Party is not the common man.

Perhaps that's the view from inside the Beltway, but out here in Draffenville, the reality is different...people are looking for radical changes, not tweaks to the current situation. 

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DixonHur

DixonHur 11,960

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30 minutes ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

Affluent post grads whose experience with scarcity is limited to competing for parking at Whole Foods aren't in the ideal position to asses who is out of touch. 

Bro, I live in 5 miles outside Draffenville, KY.  The nearest grocery store is 30 miles away.  I'd have to go about 170 miles to Nashville to find a Whole Foods...and I'm currently living in a mobile home, so I think I can relate.

Granted it's temporary until I get my golden ticket (aka long-term visa for Europe) out of this hell hole.

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bad_teammate

bad_teammate 13,527

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I don't know what it means to be in touch with the "common man" because I don't know what people mean by things like "common man" or "middle class". It all seems coded language for "white people with houses in the suburbs".

The problem is that the Democratic establishment either doesn't understand or doesn't care about the effects of class stratification. This is not about what whites need to do to help blacks, as if blacks need white saviors, this is about the illnesses that result from a dramatically unfair distribution of wealth.

 

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Bozo_Casanova

Bozo_Casanova 26,851

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The question Biden was asked was about overcoming America’s original sin of slavery.  

His response was incoherent and all over the place.  It ended with shit that barely made sense.  

His response was accurate, and if it didn’t make sense to you that demonstrates a very bourgeoisie inclination to avoid dealing with the discrimination and violence inherent in power and economic structures as they actually exist. Is that because they benefit you and talking about them challenges your privilege?

Redlining, banking and educational discrimination may themselves be a legacy of slavery but in and of themselves are more relevant to the reality of inequality and the remedies need to be responsive to those things, rather than symbolic moral licensing gestures and mouth noises.

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Bozo_Casanova

Bozo_Casanova 26,851

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I don't know what it means to be in touch with the "common man" because I don't know what people mean by things like "common man" or "middle class". It all seems coded language for "white people with houses in the suburbs".
The problem is that the Democratic establishment either doesn't understand or doesn't care about the effects of class stratification. This is not about what whites need to do to help blacks, as if blacks need white saviors, this is about the illnesses that result from a dramatically unfair distribution of wealth.
 

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Nice Guy Eddie

Nice Guy Eddie 13,733

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As for Biden's occasional usage of older terms, like record player, so what. Yes, it's a bit of out touch and some younger people may not understand every saying from a 70 year old but its better than the opposite when a 70 year old tries to use slang that a 18 year old says. It's embarrassing when that occurs. I'm also fairly certain that Biden understands that few people have record players today. I would be slightly impressed if he still uses a record player.

And for the idea that Beto touched the 3rd rail with saying that he would take guns away, I don't see a problem with the concept. The GOP recently and quietly made ownership of bump stocks to be illegal, effectively taking them away from people.  If reasonable people can agree that certain non-cosmetic characteristics of weapons have no purpose other than mass killings, why not take them away. And yes, that can make some people criminals overnight but that is the definition when you decide to break the law. You don't always get a grandfather clause with every new law.

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triplehorn

triplehorn 2,664

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2 hours ago, tantric superman said:

Agreed.  I still think Beto lost to Cruz by not being more law and order on immigration.  And I think people will have too visceral a response to the confiscation argument. 

I've got an AR-15 owning son in law who is very down on Trump.  With many former NRA types willing to accept some limitations, I'm not sure why you go for broke.

For one, it can shift the eventual compromise closer to a place you'd have accepted in the first place.

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bad_teammate

bad_teammate 13,527

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3 minutes ago, triplehorn said:

For one, it can shift the eventual compromise closer to a place you'd have accepted in the first place.

Democrats don't know how negotiation works. They think that if you negotiate against yourself before getting to the table that the Republicans will see how good and reasonable you are that they will have to agree to your pre-determined compromise.

What actually happens is that the Dems end up having to compromise down from their already-compromised starting point. But they would rather feel morally superior than actually win, because they suck.

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Bozo_Casanova

Bozo_Casanova 26,851

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, DixonHur said:

Bro, I live in 5 miles outside Draffenville, KY.  The nearest grocery store is 30 miles away.  I'd have to go about 170 miles to Nashville to find a Whole Foods...and I'm currently living in a mobile home, so I think I can relate.

Granted it's temporary until I get my golden ticket (aka long-term visa for Europe) out of this hell hole.

Touché,  I don't blame you.

1 hour ago, DixonHur said:

Perhaps that's the view from inside the Beltway, but out here in Draffenville, the reality is different...people are looking for radical changes, not tweaks to the current situation. 

I agree with you, but reforming the built in structural inequalities in our system is the most radical (and also most pro-market) thing anybody could propose. 

 

BY the way - I recently learned that throughout the 17th and 18th Century Coal miners in Scotland were held in serfdom to the mine, starting at their baptism when their parents would bind them to lifelong toil in the pits, in exchange for a small monetary gift from the Laird, a practice called "arles". 
Although they were formally emancipated in 1799, when I hear the descendants of these people in places like Tennessee and Kentucky (and I am presumably one based on family history and ethnicity) who still mine coal talk about their relationship with the industry and the work that commits them to uncertainty even as it robs them of youth, health,  and eventually life, I consider whether they have ever freed themselves. 

Edited by Bozo_Casanova
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DixonHur

DixonHur 11,960

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5 minutes ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

I agree with you, but reforming the built in structural inequalities in our system is the most radical (and also most pro-market) thing anybody could propose. 

Totally agree, that's why I'm not a Biden fan.  I'm Elizabeth Warren all the way.

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bad_teammate

bad_teammate 13,527

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11 minutes ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

BY the way - I recently learned that throughout the 17th and 18th Century Coal miners in Scotland were held in serfdom to the mine, starting at their baptism when their parents would bind them to lifelong toil in the pits, in exchange for a small monetary gift from the Laird, a practice called "arles". 

Although they were formally emancipated in 1799, when I hear the descendants of these people in places like Tennessee and Kentucky (and I am presumably one based on family history and ethnicity) who still mine coal talk about their relationship with the industry and the work that commits them to uncertainty even as it robs them of youth, health,  and eventually life, I consider whether they have ever freed themselves. 

how is this garbage forum just filling up with awesome posts like this?

What is happening?

This is so good.

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Brisketexan

Brisketexan 106,907

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5 hours ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

Is it? I mean, the legacy of redlining and banking discrimination destroyed the foundations of minority capitalism in America. That's a much more present problem than things that are harder to quantify. And while it may hurt your delicate sensibilities to hear it, the fact is that Title One schools are badly underfunded and understaffed, and the teachers at those schools are very much supplementing  all kinds of deficiencies that are brought into the school from the home. Somehow I guess that evaded your attention.

Poor kids come to school not just hungry but lonely and deprived of companionship and interaction. They DO hear millions fewer words, because their parents are working to survive and they can't enrich their kids schooling the way that your parents did and you evidently took for granted.  Teachers are making up for all that.

My wife taught at a title one school. My daughter attended one. You've got kids coming to school with roaches crawling out of their backpacks because their parents have to raise them in substandard housing where they are literally competing for space with bugs because you don't make it a priority to raise hell with your city council to force their landlords into code compliance. You have teachers literally buying RID shampoo and de-lousing their students. When my daughter would come in tardy at times she was always offered a breakfast bar paid for out of staff's pocket because the presumption is that the kids don't eat breakfast or lunch except at school.  

Do you and @Hugo Stiglitz even know what poverty is? It's comprehensive. It's not just economic. It's cultural. It's emotional. It's hunger, not just for food but conversation and community and time and fresh air and cleanliness and emotional support. it's real and present and not just code for "black" like you and the too-much-mouse-progressive seem to assume, which is quite telling. You know who I don't see whining about this today? Long term career teachers who work in Title One schools at the primary level. 

Joe Biden is too old to be up there and I'm probably team Liz at this point, but this whole pearl-clutching episode is prissy Twitterverse bullshit and you need to get over yourselves. With Democrats like you, we don't need Republicans. 

I repped you for this.  But I gotta repeat it by quoting it, too.  This is some strong truth.

The blessing and curse of our current society is that so many of us have ZERO concept of what poverty really is.  And, I mean, on one level....that's good.  It means we don't have the knowledge that experience brings.  But when we confuse our ignorance for knowledge/fact, that's a fucking problem.

We have a huge segment of our population that defines poverty as 1) just not having enough money, so 2) solve it by "working harder."  When the problem is so misunderstood, it's no surprise that meaningful mitigation/solutions are not in the offing.

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David Dennison

David Dennison 19,543

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2 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

I repped you for this.  But I gotta repeat it by quoting it, too.  This is some strong truth.

The blessing and curse of our current society is that so many of us have ZERO concept of what poverty really is.  And, I mean, on one level....that's good.  It means we don't have the knowledge that experience brings.  But when we confuse our ignorance for knowledge/fact, that's a fucking problem.

We have a huge segment of our population that defines poverty as 1) just not having enough money, so 2) solve it by "working harder."  When the problem is so misunderstood, it's no surprise that meaningful mitigation/solutions are not in the offing.

Every time I hear a white person whose parents or grandparents ponied up the down payment for their house say that the poor should work harder I want to punch them in the face.

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