2020 Democratic Nominee

[henrygandorf 29,179]

5 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

But there are a ton of Obama-Trump people who put corruption very high up on the list. They hate DC and they hate the swamp. They don't care about plowing your dead brother's wife, but they DO care about abuse of power and privilege and taxpayer money. Can they be hypocritical and blind in how they apply that? Sure, but it matters to them.

if someone cares about corruption and abuse of power and is still willing to vote for trump, then they were going to do that anyway.

we've all seen trump neck deep in both of those for several years (not counting his private business life).  and as much as trump will try to spin this to make biden look dirty, it's his son that will take the brunt of it, and joe will still be joe.

like pretty much everything going on currently, this will be hyper-partisan.  trump will trash biden all day every day.  anyone 'swayed' by this is just looking for a reason to vote trump.  anyone who was an "obama-trump voter" who still feels some allegiance to obama/biden, will still vote biden.  this whole conversation is about the narrative that will be pushed concerning a few men who are 75-80 years old.  hilarious that some "new" stuff will come out and push people to vote in some direction.

if joe was gonna fall off because of gaffes, old-man speech, molesting/creepiness, or hunter, it would've started to happen already.

[JimmyJames 12,271]

Remember when Jeff Edwards got booted from the race because of an affair and Howard dean got booted for screaming like a maniac at a campaign rally?

Yeah remember them well because those days are long gone. Trump could put a toilet on the middle of the stage, take a shit in it, and the Trumpkins would go wild and cheer. 

Nothing will happen to Joe because of something his son did. That’s thinking in the past. 

[6th Street 6,357]

Joe is also benefiting from a lack of moderates in the field - I mean if you reject Trump and ultra left platform of Bernie/Warren, you have no other choice. 

[mchookem 16,226]

Amy says hi.

[Hank Scorpio 17,723]

7 minutes ago, mchookem said:

Amy says hi.

Amy says this is clearly 2% milk in her coffee, not skim, and that you had better go get her a new one before she pours this one all over your stupid fucking head too late she already did it and spit on you. 

[Foosters 17,734]

4 hours ago, Pancho said:

This is good 

 

Ok, so its better, but I'd say that's not "good."

Only 57% of people who identify as "strong dems" are more motivated now to vote than they were prior to this fucking shit show?

[mchookem 16,226]

b_t, not that Pete has a chance in hell, but Joe most certainly does...i'm curious which would upset/disappoint you more if they won the nom?

not being snarky, seriously interested in your opinion, as you seem to be the most vociferous critic of both of them on this site. if it came down to those two, who would you choose? 🤔

[BradInATX 9,208]

Ok, so its better, but I'd say that's not "good."
Only 57% of people who identify as "strong dems" are more motivated now to vote than they were prior to this fucking shit show?

Hopefully the 43% that are less motivated is kanye west

[FondrenRoad 4,378]

53 minutes ago, JimmyJames said:

Remember when Jeff Edwards got booted from the race because of an affair and Howard dean got booted for screaming like a maniac at a campaign rally?

Yeah remember them well because those days are long gone. Trump could put a toilet on the middle of the stage, take a shit in it, and the Trumpkins would go wild and cheer. 

Nothing will happen to Joe because of something his son did. That’s thinking in the past. 

Edwards and Dean were Dems.  Biden is a Dem.  Dems still have to show decorum and lead rather uneventful lives with perfectly behaved offspring.  Only the GOP get a free pass for everything.  It wasn't so long ago that Franken resigned in disgrace for some inappropriate touching while taking selfies at county fairs while GOPer Collins managed to win re-election while under indictment for insider trading.

[Bozo_Casanova 26,287]

Ok, so its better, but I'd say that's not "good."
Only 57% of people who identify as "strong dems" are more motivated now to vote than they were prior to this fucking shit show?

You’re misreading the results. That 57% are more motivated doesn’t mean 43% are less. Most of the rest are as motivated as they were in 2016.
That’s a good result for Dems, because black voters were not highly motivated to support Hillary Clinton.

The other interesting result is that 57% overall were more motivated, but 62% of Black men were. That’s very significant. It’s too early to tell and voter suppression efforts like the one that made Brian Kemp governor are really ramping up to hold it down, but there are early signs that black turnout could meet or exceed 2008 levels.

[bad_teammate 13,132]

2 hours ago, henrygandorf said:

if someone cares about corruption and abuse of power and is still willing to vote for trump, then they were going to do that anyway.

There are Obama-Trump Rust Belt voters we could get back with a candidate who isn't very easy to paint as a swamp monster. And those are the voters Biden is making his electability case on.

For all his popularity with older black voters, he isn't going to win South Carolina and Georgia in the general. His general election meal ticket is the white working class in the Rust Belt.

Quote

if joe was gonna fall off because of gaffes, old-man speech, molesting/creepiness, or hunter, it would've started to happen already.

His best day was his first, by far.

1 hour ago, JimmyJames said:

Remember when Jeff Edwards got booted from the race because of an affair and Howard dean got booted for screaming like a maniac at a campaign rally?

Yeah remember them well because those days are long gone. Trump could put a toilet on the middle of the stage, take a shit in it, and the Trumpkins would go wild and cheer. 

Nothing will happen to Joe because of something his son did. That’s thinking in the past. 

Really bad take.

Trump in Grand Rapids, Michigan. December 12, 2015

Watch this shit, it's so obvious.

Which Democratic candidate has anything NEAR this level of love from his/her base?

There is one, and it's obvious.

We need to stop denying obvious things.

1 hour ago, mchookem said:

b_t, not that Pete has a chance in hell, but Joe most certainly does...i'm curious which would upset/disappoint you more if they won the nom?

not being snarky, seriously interested in your opinion, as you seem to be the most vociferous critic of both of them on this site. if it came down to those two, who would you choose? 🤔

Pete's politics aren't noticeably better than Joe's, but at least Joe (like Bernie), will die soon.

You know how the right poisons our judicial system by appointing 40-year-old fascists to lifetime spots? That's kind of like what happens with Pete as the leader of the Democratic party. He would leave office in his late 40s and have another 30-40 years of being the TED talk conservadem endlessly trying to crush every progressive insurgency that threatened his legacy. Tag teaming with Obama to make sure we get basically nothing but scraps and pity as they both chafe eternally at not having Mt Rushmore put to dynamite to make room for their images.

Better than Trump? Absolutely. A TON better than Donald.

...

<full B_T jihad loyalty, using meth to stay up 24 hours a day to incoherently phonebank and knock on doors and shitpost and get arrested both for the candidate and the down-ballots who are loyal>
Bernie

<same as above, but no meth>
Warren

<I guess, here's a few hours/bucks, main focus will be down-ballot>
Yang
Castro
Booker/Klobuchar/Gabbard

<I'll give you my vote, but I'll be actively funding and volunteering for more progressive down-ballot candidates who dislike you>
Biden
Buttigieg
Steyer

<Will likely write Bernie in>
Bloomberg
Any candidate who came into the convention with fewer earned delegates than Bernie but gets the nomination over him

[henrygandorf 29,179]

i worry more about the bros that will sit out (or secretly vote trump) as a fuck-you if biden is the nomination.  then if trump wins, they'll spend the next 4 years shouting on twitter about how bernie would've won.

[henrygandorf 29,179]

10 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

His best day was his first, by far.

he's exactly where he was a year ago, and has led wire to wire.

i didn't say he was at his high-water mark, but he certainly hasn't "fallen off".

[bad_teammate 13,132]

13 minutes ago, henrygandorf said:

i worry more about the bros that will sit out (or secretly vote trump) as a fuck-you if biden is the nomination.  then if trump wins, they'll spend the next 4 years shouting on twitter about how bernie would've won.

Concern troll is concerned.

[henrygandorf 29,179]

Just now, bad_teammate said:

Concern troll is concerned.

are you saying these people don't exist?

naive poster is naive.

[bad_teammate 13,132]

Given the historical stats (Hillary-McCain voters vs Bernie-Trump voters), it is more likely that the people closer to the right on the spectrum will move right in the general. 

This has been shown to you multiple times. 17-25% of Hillary primary voters went to McCain. 8-12% of Bernie primary voters went to Trump.

[henrygandorf 29,179]

so in your analogy, hillary is bernie, and mccain is trump?  this is a comp you're comfortable using to prove a point?

i think it's fairly obvious by my post that the sit-out/vote-swap wouldn't be about position on the ideological spectrum.

[bad_teammate 13,132]

18 minutes ago, henrygandorf said:

so in your analogy, hillary is bernie, and mccain is trump?  this is a comp you're comfortable using to prove a point?

It's not an analogy, it's the percentage of primary voters who defected in the general. Jesus.

17-25% of the people who voted for Hillary in the '08 primaries went to McCain in the '08 general
8-12% of the people who voted for Bernie in the '16 primaries went to Trump in the '08 general

Bernie's left-wing wacko voters were twice as loyal to the Democratic nominee as Hillary's reasonable moderate serious people voters.

Quote

i think it's fairly obvious by my post that the sit-out/vote-swap wouldn't be about position on the ideological spectrum.

Yes, it's based on your hurt feelings and not reason or facts. I know, henry.

[henrygandorf 29,179]

3 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

It's not an analogy, it's the percentage of primary voters who defected in the general. Jesus.

17-25% of the people who voted for Hillary in the '08 primaries went to McCain in the '08 general
8-12% of the people who voted for Bernie in the '16 primaries went to Trump in the '08 general

Bernie's left-wing wacko voters were twice as loyal to the Democratic nominee as Hillary's reasonable moderate serious people voters.

good lord, do you hear yourself?

3 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

Yes, it's based on your hurt feelings and not reason or facts. I know, henry.

what would i have hurt feelings about?  i'm asking about the bros that will sit out or vote trump as a "fuck-you" about not getting the nomination.  again.  and bitch about conspiracies and explain to anyone who will listen about how bernie would've won the general.  again.  i'm not talking about people slipping down the spectrum.  reading is fundamental and shit.

i know a girl, and she's probably the female version of you, politics-wise, and she is the absolute worst.  she wears the "bernie didn't win so i didn't vote at all" like a badge of honor.  i figured the people i described would mostly abstain, but the 8-12% seems alarmingly high.

[bad_teammate 13,132]

1 minute ago, henrygandorf said:

what would i have hurt feelings about? 

Your special boy being under attack. You've been insanely defensive of Pete for this entire cycle.

Quote

i'm asking about the bros that will sit out or vote trump as a "fuck-you" about not getting the nomination.

Yes, and I'm providing statistics that show that, if you actually were concerned about defections, you wouldn't be "concerned" about the left, because the left is more loyal.

But you're not actually concerned about defections, you're concerned about taking swipes at the people who are being mean to your special boy and various other libs you hate and want to own, like...

Quote

i know a girl, and she's probably the female version of you, politics-wise, and she is the absolute worst.  she wears the "bernie didn't win so i didn't vote at all" like a badge of honor.  i figured the people i described would mostly abstain, but the 8-12% seems alarmingly high.

I guess it seems that way, huh?

Do you have any thoughts at all about the fact that 17-25% of Hillary's primary supporters went to McCain? Likely not, because this is actually just a culture war for you against the left.

 

[henrygandorf 29,179]

2 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

Your special boy being under attack. You've been insanely defensive of Pete for this entire cycle.

if i'm being insanely defensive, then what words would describe your behavior?  my comment was about biden and bernie, but of course you'd insert pete into the conversation.

4 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

Yes, and I'm providing statistics that show that, if you actually were concerned about defections, you wouldn't be "concerned" about the left, because the left is more loyal.

But you're not actually concerned about defections, you're concerned about taking swipes at the people who are being mean to your special boy and various other libs you hate and want to own, like...

i'm concerned with any defections or any sitting out from anyone.  someone asked you specifically about your personal stance, and i pivoted to other bros and wondered about their behavior.  i don't hate any libs, and don't really care who's mean on twitter or on surly, even when they embarrass themselves.  you serious, clark?

and since when do i take swipes?  are you that sensitive?  when do i say mean things about posters or candidates (other than trump)?

7 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

I guess it seems that way, huh?

no, she really is the worst, and it has nothing to do with her political opinions.  she used to work with the wife so i don't really have to deal with her anymore, but i hear fun stories.

8 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

Do you have any thoughts at all about the fact that 17-25% of Hillary's primary supporters went to McCain?

first off, i'm not here to defend hillary people, and you'll never see me doing so.  second, i'm not as concerned with any dem voters going to trump like they did to mccain, because obama isn't biden/bernie, and trump isn't mccain.  if biden lost the nomination to bernie, i would be absolutely shocked if ~20% of biden supporters voted for trump.

12 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

because this is actually just a culture war for you against the left.

dude, get over yourself with this.  not everyone is in a war against the left, but i'd love to see some actual evidence of it.  your special little war here is a solo project.

[bad_teammate 13,132]

13 minutes ago, henrygandorf said:

if i'm being insanely defensive, then what words would describe your behavior? 

I have critical views from an ideological perspective. I have beliefs and values that I will advocate for and defend.

I'm an asshole, but at least I have discernible values and goals that I'm an asshole about.

Quote

first off, i'm not here to defend hillary people, and you'll never see me doing so.  second, i'm not as concerned with any dem voters going to trump like they did to mccain, because obama isn't biden/bernie, and trump isn't mccain.  if biden lost the nomination to bernie, i would be absolutely shocked if ~20% of biden supporters voted for trump.

Then why concern troll about the Bernie Bros voting for Donald?

[Hugo Stiglitz 23,359]

Like the beginning of December, I expect to see some drop outs by the end of the week. 

[henrygandorf 29,179]

17 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

Then why concern troll about the Bernie Bros voting for Donald?

the most dedicated supporters (bernie) would seem to be the most pissed about their guy not winning.  if it was warren, that would be one thing, since they're the most closely aligned.  but if someone moderate was to win (biden), then i could envision some sitting out as a "fuck-you, you had your chance to get it right, but you chose to go with joe, so sleep in the bed you made" kinda statement.  

i've also stated that i would worry more about sitting-out than full switch to trump.  of course i'll never understand anyone who makes that switch, so that's certainly not bernie bro-specific.

[henrygandorf 29,179]

22 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

I have critical views from an ideological perspective.

you shit-post and name-call worse than just about anyone, and most of it is directed at one target.

tomato, potato.

[atomheartbevo 89,452]

2 hours ago, bad_teammate said:

Which Democratic candidate has anything NEAR this level of love from his/her base?

Those rallies aren't a very good indicator though.  Too many repeat attendees.  Possibly paid attendees as well.

[Js1 85,115]

Boooooooooooooo

 

[bad_teammate 13,132]

1 hour ago, henrygandorf said:

the most dedicated supporters (bernie) would seem to be the most pissed about their guy not winning.  if it was warren, that would be one thing, since they're the most closely aligned.  but if someone moderate was to win (biden), then i could envision some sitting out as a "fuck-you, you had your chance to get it right, but you chose to go with joe, so sleep in the bed you made" kinda statement. 

You can  have your imagination which is colored by your irrational view of Bernie Bros, but I've given you actual statistics that show your biased supposition is wrong.

Enjoy your continued concern trolling, though.

1 hour ago, henrygandorf said:

you shit-post and name-call worse than just about anyone, and most of it is directed at one target.

Who is that one target, henry?

[Dropout 355]

On 12/27/2019 at 9:59 AM, ChiTownDoc said:

She went out of her way to antagonize billionaires and it blew up badly.  She had staked out a good position w M4A then waffles too early - win the damn nomination then move towards the center.  
 

When are D’s gonna realize the avg voter is not BT?  You’re gonna have to play politics to win at...wait for it - politics!

I don’t think antagonizing billionaires had anything to do w it. Warren backtracked on M4A. That is the only thing that really changed.

The Democrats have never considered BT the average voter. They still don’t.

On 12/27/2019 at 11:47 AM, BradInATX said:

I agree.

You and I, and hell, even b_t are all on the same page when it comes to wealth inequality and eating the rich. That's a winning topic for everyone of either party. 

But the very loud on Twitter want to talk about the green new deal and reparations and identity politics, while Joe the farmer from Wisconsin could easily be won over by a candidate that makes a compelling case as to why Trump and the billionaire class are hurting him and his family.

It should be the only thing the Democrats talk about ever. But instead they take the bait and drive that wedge you mention further. The poor whites should be on our side, it's in their own self interest.

The candidate that makes a compelling case is Bernie. For a long time too. It shouldn’t be the only thing they talk about though. Why would you ignore what you could do for everyone with all the money that is being funneled to the top?

Maybe the poor whites will be on our side when you give them someone who they feel is actually on their side. You know like not someone taking money from the same billionaires we are talking about here.

[Dropout 355]

2 hours ago, henrygandorf said:

the most dedicated supporters (bernie) would seem to be the most pissed about their guy not winning.  if it was warren, that would be one thing, since they're the most closely aligned.  but if someone moderate was to win (biden), then i could envision some sitting out as a "fuck-you, you had your chance to get it right, but you chose to go with joe, so sleep in the bed you made" kinda statement.  

That’s my kind of statement. Let me help you out. Joe is closer to Donald than he is to Bernie policy wise. Money in politics? Check. War? Check. M4A? Check. GND? Check. Immigration? Check. There probably won’t be kids in cages for the world to see but I have zero confidence Joe gives a fuck. So yes you can sleep in the bed you and others made. There is a clear choice and you wanna get cute.

Edited December 31, 2019 by Dropout
And the fault for what America is is on every American. Yea you too over there pointing the finger. We are who we are. We will get the president we deserve.

[henrygandorf 29,179]

49 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

You can  have your imagination which is colored by your irrational view of Bernie Bros, but I've given you actual statistics that show your biased supposition is wrong.

are bernie people not the most loyal and dedicated?  what did i say that was off-base?  your stats were fun, but i don't see them being relevant 12 years later with the candidates we're looking at here.  i also have said (3x now) that i can see it more of a sitting-out than a vote-for-trump move.  not sure if there are stats that show this. 

i don't see anyone emotionally attached to biden, so his supporters don't strike me as the type to sit out under protest if someone else wins the nomination.

is there polling on this?  candidate most and least likely to see their supporters rally around whomever wins the nomination?

 

[henrygandorf 29,179]

5 minutes ago, Dropout said:

That’s my kind of statement. Let me help you out. Joe is closer to Donald than he is to Bernie policy wise. Money in politics? Check. War? Check. M4A? Check. GND? Check. Immigration? Check. There probably won’t be kids in cages for the world to see but I have zero confidence Joe gives a fuck. So yes you can sleep in the bed you and others made. There is a clear choice and you wanna get cute.

pos-rep for your honesty.  i guess there's only one person in the world with my proposed worldview, and he just happens to post here on surly.  imagine the luck.

[BradInATX 9,208]

That’s my kind of statement. Let me help you out. Joe is closer to Donald than he is to Bernie policy wise. Money in politics? Check. War? Check. M4A? Check. GND? Check. Immigration? Check. There probably won’t be kids in cages for the world to see but I have zero confidence Joe gives a fuck. So yes you can sleep in the bed you and others made. There is a clear choice and you wanna get cute.

It's your belief that a public option for healthcare (which will probably start the ball rolling towards universal) is closer to "let the poors die" than it is to what Bernie wants?
Huh.

[Dropout 355]

14 minutes ago, BradInATX said:

It's your belief that a public option for healthcare (which will probably start the ball rolling towards universal) is closer to "let the poors die" than it is to what Bernie wants?
Huh.

It is my belief Joe is an old school democratic politician. It is my belief Joe will say one thing and do another because it is politically expedient. It is my belief Joe has no interest in ending the profiteering that runs rampant in the healthcare industry. It is my belief that Joe's proposed public option probably doesn’t get any ball rolling towards universal. It is my belief that Joe doesn’t care if poor people die.

[BradInATX 9,208]

It is my belief Joe is an old school democratic politician. It is my belief Joe will say one thing and do another because it is politically expedient. It is my belief Joe has no interest in ending the profiteering that runs rampant in the healthcare industry. It is my belief that Joe's proposed public option probably doesn’t get any ball rolling towards universal. It is my belief that Joe doesn’t care if poor people die.

You didn't answer my question though

[Dropout 355]

Sure I did. Sorry you didn’t like the answer. I’ll be more succinct. Yes it is closer. Especially with Joe Biden as your torchbearer. What will the public option tell the poor people who can’t afford the public option Brad? What the public option will tell them will be closer to “let the poors die” than a guaranteed universal program.

[softlynow 1,784]

1 hour ago, Dropout said:

It is my belief Joe is an old school democratic politician. It is my belief Joe will say one thing and do another because it is politically expedient. It is my belief Joe has no interest in ending the profiteering that runs rampant in the healthcare industry. It is my belief that Joe's proposed public option probably doesn’t get any ball rolling towards universal. It is my belief that Joe doesn’t care if poor people die.

Then that's who the nominee needs to be, because that old school isn't dying yet. Soon. But not yet.

This is an important fucking election. Not just because the system won't likely last under the strain of 4 more years of Trumpism. It's a decennial election. The Dems need the guy who will lead the ticket to the highest totals in every race on the ballot. They need more statehouses and legislatures. District lines for the next 10 years are at stake.

You want a progressive agenda to actually have a non-zero chance of being implemented? Win big this time. Sure the young-ins are cozzying up to socialism or social democracy. That's great. They don't yet vote at the rate of and are outnumbered by the folks scared to death (and coincidentally killing themselves in Florida too) of simple tax increases, let alone significant expansions of the safety net or access to health care and education.

I do think a significant left-ward shift is coming. Just not yet. If the Dems somehow convince folks in the middle to stay home, they jeopardize their long-term goals. I don't expect zealots to understand. They lack of foresight is why they're so bad at politics.

[bad_teammate 13,132]

2 hours ago, henrygandorf said:

are bernie people not the most loyal and dedicated?

Man, if only there were direct statistical evidence of what Bernie and his loyal followers would do in the case of him losing a primary!

lol Jesus Christ

[henrygandorf 29,179]

how many sat out in 2016?  i missed it. 

[Dropout 355]

10 minutes ago, softlynow said:

Then that's who the nominee needs to be, because that old school isn't dying yet. Soon. But not yet.

This is an important fucking election. Not just because the system won't likely last under the strain of 4 more years of Trumpism. It's a decennial election. The Dems need the guy who will lead the ticket to the highest totals in every race on the ballot. They need more statehouses and legislatures. District lines for the next 10 years are at stake.

Not yet? I disagree. The old school is dying right before our very eyes. Good thing we are about to have a vote to see if it’s now. Why are you so sure the highest totals in every race will be accomplished bc of Joe Biden? Again I simply disagree.

13 minutes ago, softlynow said:

You want a progressive agenda to actually have a non-zero chance of being implemented? Win big this time. Sure the young-ins are cozzying up to socialism or social democracy. That's great. They don't yet vote at the rate of and are outnumbered by the folks scared to death (and coincidentally killing themselves in Florida too) of simple tax increases, let alone significant expansions of the safety net or access to health care and education.

I do think a significant left-ward shift is coming. Just not yet. If the Dems somehow convince folks in the middle to stay home, they jeopardize their long-term goals. I don't expect zealots to understand. They lack of foresight is why they're so bad at politics.

I want a president who represents my interests. I’m not naive and believe Bernie will pass everything. Quite the contrary. 

Why cant we win big with Bernie? I believe we can. So seems we have to agree to disagree again. The numbers are yet to be tallied on who will have the higher turnout. We all know the trend lines so let’s just let it play out.

You know the inevitable left shift is coming but you’re actively fighting it. How about you join the wave and actively try and convince some folks to not stay home if that’s what you’re worried about. So call me a zealot and state as fact we lack the foresight. That’s only been proven to be true for the moderate establishment wing of the Democratic Party when they sent Hilary to her death. Surely there were Hilary zealots and they lacked the foresight to beat an orange orangutan. It works both ways you see. Bad at politics? I’m not trying to be good at politics and neither is Bernie Sanders. It’s the principle of it. It’s not a game we are playing.

 

[Jhawk 1,075]

The problem you are having is two-fold... 

1. According to NPR, the bernie bros who voted for trump voted that way because they felt the election was "stolen".  They show that if even those voters would have stayed home in MI and PA then HRC wins the election. https://www.npr.org/2017/08/24/545812242/1-in-10-sanders-primary-voters-ended-up-supporting-trump-survey-finds

2. You aren't including bros that stayed home in non-MI and non-PA states.  Plenty of other states could have swung if they would have just showed up and voted the party.

The big question will be if the bernie bros will see the election as rigged or not if biden gets the nom.

[softlynow 1,784]

5 minutes ago, Dropout said:

Not yet? I disagree. The old school is dying right before our very eyes. Good thing we are about to have a vote to see if it’s now. Why are you so sure the highest totals in every race will be accomplished bc of Joe Biden? Again I simply disagree.

Millennials and Zers are your change generations. See B_T's socialism poll link above. They'll respresent ~38% of the electorate. That should jump up a few points each of the next few cycles. If capitalism isn't moderated by 2032, you could see a real push for a Social Democratic takeover of the Democratic Party, not just a couple of 'em vying for ~30-35% of the Dem primary vote.

Quote

Why cant we win big with Bernie? I believe we can. 

He started this cycle with 100% name recognition, and hasn't broken through a 20% national polling average. Lots of folks are turned off by him (not me, btw). Lots of folks hear his ideas, and think (wrongly) that they're in the class of people he wants to take from to give to someone else. He's unlikely to be a landslide-winning standard-bearer.

Quote

You know the inevitable left shift is coming but you’re actively fighting it.

How is that, exactly? I hardly post here anymore. I live amongst upper middle class Republicans who've gone from completely embarrassed that Trump was the nominee to secretly fist-pumping his brilliance even when I'm around. I couldn't convince these people of jack shit politically. And there is the fact that they WOULD be taken from a bit more in a progressive revolution. So would I, probably.

Unless Bernie or Warren drops out by the time Texas gets to vote for the nominee, I don't see a progressive breakthrough. If I'm wrong, and either one is cooking with gas, they might get my vote.

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That’s only been proven to be true for the moderate establishment wing of the Democratic Party when they sent Hilary to her death. Surely there were Hilary zealots and they lacked the foresight to beat an orange orangutan. It works both ways you see.

Bad at politics? I’m not trying to be good at politics and neither is Bernie Sanders. It’s the principle of it. It’s not a game we are playing.

Liberalism has been in retreat among voters since the Reagan Revolution began. The moderate wing has been the only thing standing between us and Pubs totally ramming their idiotic wet dreams down our throats.

The bolded ... smh. Jesus.

 

[bad_teammate 13,132]

i worry more about the bros that will sit out (or secretly vote trump) as a fuck-you if biden is the nomination.

sEcReT tRuMp VoTeRs

[Message Board User 12,389]

36 minutes ago, Dropout said:

Why cant we win big with Bernie? I believe we can.

Username checks out.

[Brisketexan 104,631]

Man, if only there were direct statistical evidence of what Bernie and his loyal followers would do in the case of him losing a primary!
lol Jesus Christ

You mean the significant enough percentage that either a) voted for Trump out of rage and protest, or b) votes for Jill Stein, or c) didn’t show up on Election Day to support the dem at all? When any one of those three groups was enough to turn the election in the crucial swing states?

This is our concern, dude. We the people have only two choices: nominate Bernie, and re-elect Trump because we won’t get any swing voters/moderates, or don’t nominate Bernie and re-elect Trump because enough Bernie bro’s will repeat their 2016 actions. Hell, I kinda like the guy, and appreciate what he adds to the conversation, but Bernie bros have made Bernie a poison pill that will kill the chances of a Dem president no matter what happens. That sucks. And yeah, BT will scream about how that’s not what happened or what will happen, when both are true.

[bad_teammate 13,132]

Is it screaming to provide direct statistical data?

Bernie->Trump voters were not leftists, but swing conservatives that Bernie attracted.

Also of note: the Bernie-Trump voter also proved much more likely to consider himself or herself “somewhat conservative” or “very conservative” than the average Democrat.

The voters who stayed home were black and Hispanic, not the white bros you conservatives are so CONCERNED about.

[Dropout 355]

37 minutes ago, softlynow said:

Millennials and Zers are your change generations. See B_T's socialism poll link above. They'll respresent ~38% of the electorate. That should jump up a few points each of the next few cycles. If capitalism isn't moderated by 2032, you could see a real push for a Social Democratic takeover of the Democratic Party, not just a couple of 'em vying for ~30-35% of the Dem primary vote.

He started this cycle with 100% name recognition, and hasn't broken through a 20% national polling average. Lots of folks are turned off by him (not me, btw). Lots of folks hear his ideas, and think (wrongly) that they're in the class of people he wants to take from to give to someone else. He's unlikely to be a landslide-winning standard-bearer.

How is that, exactly? I hardly post here anymore. I live amongst upper middle class Republicans who've gone from completely embarrassed that Trump was the nominee to secretly fist-pumping his brilliance even when I'm around. I couldn't convince these people of jack shit politically. And there is the fact that they WOULD be taken from a bit more in a progressive revolution. So would I, probably.

Unless Bernie or Warren drops out by the time Texas gets to vote for the nominee, I don't see a progressive breakthrough. If I'm wrong, and either one is cooking with gas, they might get my vote.

Liberalism has been in retreat among voters since the Reagan Revolution began. The moderate wing has been the only thing standing between us and Pubs totally ramming their idiotic wet dreams down our throats.

The bolded ... smh. Jesus.

 

And the olds are ~38% leaving gen x to decide. Judging by this thread fuck me.

If the polls are underestimating anyone it’s Bernie. He is capable of winning 3/4 early states and picking up delegates in SC. He will win California. He is the only one in this race capable of being any sort of standard bearer for good. 

You come in here defending the honor of Joe Biden. One can only assume. Another thing I assumed you ask? You wouldn’t mention the name Bernie Sanders in front of your friends. So how could you convince them? You can barely convince yourself. It’s obvious from your post we come from two different worlds.

The moderate wing has been an accomplice to the decay of this country. The people stand between anyone ramming anything down our throats. I mean this is still America amirite?

Edited December 31, 2019 by Dropout

[softlynow 1,784]

12 minutes ago, Dropout said:

He is the only one in this race capable of being any sort of standard bearer for good. 

Only a Sith deals in absolutes.

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You come in here defending the honor of Joe Biden.

Have I?

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One can only assume.

Oh . . .

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Another thing I assumed you ask?

What the. . ?

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You wouldn’t mention the name Bernie Sanders in front of your friends. So how could you convince them? You can barely convince yourself. It’s obvious from your post we come from two different worlds.

His name isn't Beetlejuice or Voldemort. Of course it's come up. And we're not so much talking about friends as colleagues and neighbors. My friends are smart enough to be as well read as me, and have strong, at least somewhat left-leaning opinions as well. They just mostly live elsewhere.

I can barely convince myself? Of what? What weird and un-typed assumption have you made now?

[Dropout 355]

11 minutes ago, softlynow said:

His name isn't Beetlejuice or Voldemort. Of course it's come up. And we're not so much talking about friends as colleagues and neighbors. My friends are smart enough to be as well read as me, and have strong, at least somewhat left-leaning opinions as well. They just mostly live elsewhere.

I can barely convince myself? Of what? What weird and un-typed assumption have you made now?

We are talking about the people you can perhaps influence on a daily basis but choose not to. Not because you necessarily disagree with Bernie Sanders but because you are concerned with how it will be received.

You can barely convince yourself to vote for Bernie even if he was rolling. That one wasn’t assumed.

1 hour ago, softlynow said:

If I'm wrong, and either one is cooking with gas, they might get my vote.

 

[softlynow 1,784]

10 minutes ago, Dropout said:

We are talking about the people you can perhaps influence on a daily basis but choose not to. Not because you necessarily disagree with Bernie Sanders but because you are concerned with how it will be received.

Ideas/policies talked about by the folks to whom I'm referring: how smart Trump is, that Russian help in an election is just fine, that we should arm kindergarten teachers, that climate change is a hoax, tax cuts will reduce the deficit, and the solution to the detention centers at the border is to deny media access so the TV cannot cover it effectively. I think I know my audience pretty well. M4A, free college and breaking up ICE are non-starters. How would those ideas be received? About as well as a proposal to ban the internal combustion engine at an Exxon-Mobil board meeting.

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You can barely convince yourself to vote for Bernie even if he was rolling. That one wasn’t assumed.

So certain are you. Read you nothing I type? I'll need to see evidence that he won't just barely capture the nomination, but also be the strongest ticket-topper.

If Bernie is indeed not trying to be good at the game of politics, he will never have my vote. I want a Dem majority that can push through change and stem the GOP tide in the judiciary (going to really need this if you want campaign finance reform). That doesn't happen backing candidates who stick to their principles. That happens when you back winners.

I'm not a cynic. I'm and idealist with experience. Power doesn't really come from ideas, it comes from the barrel of a gun, which in a democracy requires winning elections.