2020 Democratic Nominee

[GSU&UT 1798]

1 minute ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

Whatever dude.  Everything Bernie does is to serve Bernie’s interest, including that.  Admitting a mistake is saying, “I was wrong to do X, I apologize for the harm I caused because of my mistake.”  Bernie has never been humble enough to do that. 

Yes, the guy who specifically notes that if he becomes President that he will still need everyone's help to get a progressive agenda passed, who's campaign is "Not me, US" (100% the opposite of Trump's "I, I, I" campaign), who wanted Warren to run against Hillary, is only worried about his interest. This is in spite of us being able to clearly look at damn near every other developed nation in the world and see that our standard of living, healthcare, and inequality are absolute dog shit despite being the richest country in the world.

Just admit you're mad Warren has dipped in the polls after leading him, it would be more honest.

[Hugo Stiglitz 23356]

2 minutes ago, henrygandorf said:

all that said, warren's camp has handled this with absolute incompetence, and it reeks of desperation over recent stagnant polls.

I mean, we will just have to see how it goes.  I have no idea if this is even going to matter but if Warren ends up winning, this take will be laughable.  

[Hank Kingsley 20704]

15 minutes ago, hayden_horn said:

why both sides are so goddamn inflexible about it is the maddening part. again, this fits the democratic oeuvre perfectly, though, and again, that's the bananas part. you'll never beat trump with shit like this. 

IMO beating Trump and the GOP in the general election is all about discipline. They are going to throw the kitchen sink and deploy psychological warfare that will offend many peoples' sensibilities. 

The presidential candidate and their campaign has to be focused, and that focus needs to be on the American people/voters. 

The fact that less than 3 weeks from the Iowa caucus, the Bernie and Warren campaigns both bungled this stupid, worthless manufactured drama is concerning. I think it's a much bigger problem for Warren in the end, but Bernie blew an easy layup to help this die down.  How can they let a tiny amount of personal drama blow up like this? So fucking annoying. 

 

[Hugo Stiglitz 23356]

I think the best thing to do is acknowledge there is a lot of information about this we don’t know and we’re only seeing what the candidates are showing us.  Any pointing fingers or blame at this point is an incomplete assessment.  We’ll have to see how it plays out before writing obituaries. 

[hayden_horn 11360]

11 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

What was the better play, in your mind?

not to speak for @henrygandorf, but if i may interject my own worthless opinion: instead of denial, you come out and say that you remember that dinner fondly and that you are sorry she came away with that sort of misunderstanding from what i said. what i remember saying is xyz, and i'm sorry she took it the way she did.  i've long been a supporter of female candidates, as my record shows, and i'll support liz if she gets the nomination. the goal is to defeat the actual misogynist currently inhabiting the white house, as he is the biggest enemy of women we've ever elected.

i think liz was pissed at the flat out denial. you have to validate her feelings as well.

[Pig Bellmont 8691]

I don’t give a shit about any of this. The dem world outside of Twitter doesn’t either. Anecdotally, all my friends are going to vote for whoever the nominee is. 

[Hank Kingsley 20704]

2 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

I think the best thing to do is acknowledge there is a lot of information about this we don’t know and we’re only seeing what the candidates are showing us.  Any pointing fingers or blame at this point is an incomplete assessment.  We’ll have to see how it plays out before writing obituaries. 

Of course we don't actually know yet how this affects polling in Iowa and afterwards.

But the most important part of this stupid controversy has played out. The gloves are off between Bernie and Warren supporters. There's no putting the genie back in the bottle. Berners feel betrayed and the friendliness is over.

Strategically, this seemed like a play for Warren to rally more female voters to her side. Maybe it works.  

 

 

[F250 28688]

3 minutes ago, GSU&UT said:

Yes, he took responsibility for it the fuck is wrong with your brain?

In case you haven't been paying attention, Hugo has a strong need to engage in hero worship and once he has latched onto a messiah he will dedicate every moment of his life to the fighting for his messiah through active measures.

Seriously, he reminds me of Jared from Silicon Valley but unstable.

[henrygandorf 29177]

5 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

What was the better play, in your mind?

"cnn reports, that in 2018, you said blah blah.  why did you say that?"

bernie said, "well, as a matter of fact, i didn't say it."  long pause, giving cnn the moment they wanted - the split screen where you could see warren's "oh really?" face.

the better play, in my mind, is:

"why did you say that?"

bernie listens, smiles, then does a mini-head shake at the nonsense of politics, and says "look, liz and i go back 25 years, we've had hundreds of conversations.  but the idea that i think a woman cannot become president is ridiculous.  you can go on youtube blah blah, through my career blah blah blah, my record speaks for itself blah blah, and although i think it's going to be a rough battle for anyone on this stage in 2020, i believe in what we can accomplish together, whether we're all supporting a woman or a man.  and i apologize if that was liz's takeaway from that dinner, it's obviously not my opinion on the subject."

(he really doesn't even need the last sentence apology, that part was optional)

the problem with bernie's answer, is that it better set up abby phillip's follow up to both bernie and warren.  the whole thing was designed to trap bernie.

[bad_teammate 13132]

When I look at your statement, most of that is already in there in what Bernie said. The only difference is that what you're wanting here is for one of her competitors to "validate her feelings".

What feelings has Warren expressed that need validation?

Say Bernie goes out there and says what you think he should and then she says, "This isn't about my feelings, it's about what you said."?

This isn't his daughter or his wife, it's his primary opponent. If he comes out talking to her like he's soothing a hysterical woman, that's sexist and infantilizing. She's a grown-ass woman making a grown-ass accusation.

[bad_teammate 13132]

1 minute ago, henrygandorf said:

bernie listens, smiles, then does a mini-head shake at the nonsense of politics, and says "look, liz and i go back 25 years, we've had hundreds of conversations.  but the idea that i think a woman cannot become president is ridiculous.  you can go on youtube blah blah, through my career blah blah blah, my record speaks for itself blah blah, and although i think it's going to be a rough battle for anyone on this stage in 2020, i believe in what we can accomplish together, whether we're all supporting a woman or a man.  and i apologize if that was liz's takeaway from that dinner, it's obviously not my opinion on the subject."

(he really doesn't even need the last sentence apology, that part was optional)

the problem with bernie's answer, is that it better set up abby phillip's follow up to both bernie and warren.  the whole thing was designed to trap bernie.

The apology is the only thing that's actually materially different from his response.

You don't apologize for something you didn't do.

And apologizing for something you didn't do because you think the little woman opponent needs her feelings managed is sexist.

[henrygandorf 29177]

1 minute ago, bad_teammate said:

When I look at your statement, most of that is already in there in what Bernie said. The only difference is that what you're wanting here is for one of her competitors to "validate her feelings".

What feelings has Warren expressed that need validation?

Say Bernie goes out there and says what you think he should and then she says, "This isn't about my feelings, it's about what you said."?

This isn't his daughter or his wife, it's his primary opponent. If he comes out talking to her like he's soothing a hysterical woman, that's sexist and infantilizing. She's a grown-ass woman making a grown-ass accusation.

this is where the gap lies.  it's not in message, it's in optics.

we know liz came out and made a statement.  for bernie to straight-up deny it, is setting up to have a bunch of people say "bernie is calling liz a liar omgmgmgmg!!!1"  what hayden said is good, and fits well with what i said.

in the end it's a really stupid thing that is absolutely meaningless.  when that happens, you diffuse it quickly and quietly.  denying it gives it oxygen.

[henrygandorf 29177]

Just now, bad_teammate said:

The apology is the only thing that's actually materially different from his response.

You don't apologize for something you didn't do.

And apologizing for something you didn't do because you think the little woman opponent needs her feelings managed is sexist.

forget the apology.  i said that part was optional anyway (though i disagree with your assessment.  if a friend misunderstood something and took it as insulting, you apologize)

the big difference is the phrase, "as a matter of fact, i didn't say it."

that's where he fucked it up.  there's a way to move past it without denying it (or accepting it).

[Hank Kingsley 20704]

11 minutes ago, Pig Bellmont said:

I don’t give a shit about any of this. The dem world outside of Twitter doesn’t either. Anecdotally, all my friends are going to vote for whoever the nominee is. 

I've embarrassingly used the "Twitter isn't real life" mantra many times. But I've come to realize it's a lot more influential than I previously thought. It's great to hear you and your friends will all vote for the nominee, but who actually becomes the nominee will be affected by Twitter.

The reality is most of the political media/journalists/pundits/thought leaders/campaign staffs LIVE AND BREATH on Twitter. And what they read/believe bleeds into their work on TV, newspapers, magazines, political rallies, etc. 

I was telling HG the other day that one of the huge positives for Biden is his base is filled with olds and people that aren't politically engaged. Which means his presence on Twitter is a bit muted. He doesn't have a ton of Biden supporters talking shit on Twitter. One result of that is there's less animosity towards him because there's not a lot of engagement with other candidates' supporters. 

 

Edited January 15, 2020 by Hank Kingsley

[GSU&UT 1798]

I 100% agree with you who say this only hurts both their sides. I do think Bernie should have just dismissed it as a private matter, seems like Warren (according to the wonk analysis) did better in the debate last night anyways. Less than 3 weeks away until Iowa and I have a bad feeling that Bernie may get hurt because CNN was determined to frame this as bad as possible for him, not just this dumb drama, but for all the healthcare questions.

[Chuckie Finster 22600]

5 minutes ago, Hank Kingsley said:

I've embarrassingly used the "Twitter isn't real life" mantra many times. But I've come to realize it's a lot more influential than I previously thought. It's great to hear you and your friends will all vote for the nominee, but who actually becomes the nominee will be affected by Twitter.

Do the bots/trolls in the replies matter? Not really. But the reality is most of the political media/journalists/pundits/thought leaders/campaign staffs LIVE AND BREATH on Twitter. And what they read/believe bleeds into their work on TV, newspapers, magazines, political rallies, etc. 

I was telling HG the other day that one of the huge positives for Biden is his base is filled with olds and people that aren't politically engaged. Which means his presence on Twitter is a bit muted. He doesn't have a ton of Biden supporters talking shit on Twitter. One result of that is there's less animosity towards him because there's not a lot of engagement with other candidates' supporters. 

 

At this point, Twitter is probably a net negative for any campaign (and society in general) unless you weaponize the trolls like Trump's team.  

Edited January 15, 2020 by Chuckie Finster

[wildcat09 29256]

12 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

I think the best thing to do is acknowledge there is a lot of information about this we don’t know and we’re only seeing what the candidates are showing us.  Any pointing fingers or blame at this point is an incomplete assessment.  We’ll have to see how it plays out before writing obituaries. 

Saying we can't tell how this will shake out is like saying "Maybe Jeb's 'please clap' moment will actually help him!" This makes both candidates look bad, even if you're in one camp and you think it makes the other camp look worse than it makes yours look. Bernie and Warren didn't need to take votes from each other, they needed to take more votes from the centrists. Today the entire story is about an incredibly stupid spat between Warren and Liz. Not anything good about either of their campaigns and not anything bad about Biden or Buttigieg. That's bad if you care about either Bernie or Warren winning. 

This here is what's important:

Quote

But neither candidate is dropping out before Iowa. And the lower Joe Biden places in that state, the better both Warren and Sanders’s chances of catching him will be. It is therefore in each candidate’s immediate interest to see the other gain ground on the Democratic front-runner in the coming weeks. And it is in the long-term interests of both candidates — and the progressive movement more broadly — to maintain a modicum of goodwill and fellow feeling among the small minority of humans who care deeply about pulling American politics to the left.

There are some “normie” suburban Democrats who are receptive to a social democratic message when it comes from Warren and her allies, but not when it comes from Bernie or his. And the reverse is true of some disaffected, non-college-educated voters who’ve given up on both parties. A movement that cultivates a comradely attitude between Bernie and Warren activists will be one that is better able to cohere the candidates’ disparate bases into a faction large enough to compete for hegemony within the Democratic Party. A movement that cultivates internecine conflict for its own sake — which is to say, for cathartic, expressive, or media brand-building purposes — will allow meek centrists to inherit the (increasingly uninhabitable) Earth.

If Warren wins the nomination but alienates a significant portion of Bernie's voters in the process, we're fucked. If Bernie wins the nomination but alienates a significant portion of Warren's voters in the process, we're fucked. And, just as importantly, if either of them win and go on to beat Trump they're going to have a very hard getting anything done because the media, centrists, and the right will unite against even the tiniest efforts to make this a more equitable society. That means that they need to maximize the votes they can get if they hope to actually effect any change, which first and foremost means not acting like assholes to your closest political allies.

[bad_teammate 13132]

1 minute ago, henrygandorf said:

that's where he fucked it up.  there's a way to move past it without denying it (or accepting it).

He literally doesn't have the power to diffuse the situation and move past it. It was her move, not his. He cannot go withdraw her accusation for her no matter how obsequious he is.

She could have killed this at ANY moment since Monday. Appear on CNN and say, "Obviously there's been a misunderstanding between Bernie and I and it's not a big deal, we're moving on."

Done.

Bernie cannot do anything like that. You and Hank are talking about Sanders managing her feelings about it, which is just you guys acknowledging that the power is ultimately hers.

1 minute ago, GSU&UT said:

I do think Bernie should have just dismissed it as a private matter...

So he responds, "It's a private matter I won't comment on"

They go to Liz and ask, "What did you think when Bernie said a woman couldn't win?"

Liz says, "I disagreed."

OK... how is that different?

I know there is an overwhelming urge to both sides things and pretend everyone is equally guilty let's just stop fighting and keep eating this delicious Thanksgiving turkey, but that's not what is going on here.

[GSU&UT 1798]

I love Bernie, but I think him saying it's a private matter and it's not appropriate to discuss it makes him look better as it shows CNN is just 100% trying to manufacture more drama. That's my opinion though

[henrygandorf 29177]

2 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

He literally doesn't have the power to diffuse the situation and move past it. It was her move, not his. He cannot go withdraw her accusation for her no matter how obsequious he is.

She could have killed this at ANY moment since Monday. Appear on CNN and say, "Obviously there's been a misunderstanding between Bernie and I and it's not a big deal, we're moving on."

Done.

Bernie cannot do anything like that. You and Hank are talking about Sanders managing her feelings about it, which is just you guys acknowledging that the power is ultimately hers.

first of all, i think the entire thing has been poorly handled by warren (48-72 hours).  the one single debate question was handled poorly by bernie.  the blame for 99% of this is on warren.  make no mistake - that's what i'm saying.

i'm not saying shit about managing her feelings on it.  i said he fucked it up, you asked my opinion on how it could've been handled better, and i told you.  specifically.  the one sentence.  his first sentence.  that was the part that could've been handled better.  if he skipped that sentence and just said the rest of it, it would've been better and a smaller story today.

i'm gonna add that i'm done talking about this, because it's ridiculously stupid.  if this is the hill you're going to die on today, good luck with that.

[wildcat09 29256]

4 minutes ago, GSU&UT said:

I love Bernie, but I think him saying it's a private matter and it's not appropriate to discuss it makes him look better as it shows CNN is just 100% trying to manufacture more drama. That's my opinion though

Both of them should have taken huge dumps on CNN over it. They both gave it more life than it deserved. The best response would have been for both of them to say that they're not going to respond to CNN's attempts to manufacture drama to tear down the only candidates who actually have records of giving a shit about ordinary people. 

[Hank Kingsley 20704]

People familiar with the exchange said Ms. Warren walked over and told Mr. Sanders that she was concerned that, during the debate, he had mischaracterized a conversation they had in 2018 about whether a woman could win the presidency. She has accused him of saying that a woman could not; he has denied that remark.

Appearing frustrated, Mr. Sanders asked to discuss the matter at a different time, said the people, who insisted on anonymity to discuss a sensitive, private conversation. He pointed his finger toward her, then back at himself, before turning and walking away.

[Hugo Stiglitz 23356]

30 minutes ago, F250 said:

In case you haven't been paying attention, Hugo has a strong need to engage in hero worship and once he has latched onto a messiah he will dedicate every moment of his life to the fighting for his messiah through active measures.

Seriously, he reminds me of Jared from Silicon Valley but unstable.

I’m only a pawn in the game of life but my college football team had the best season in history, which is nice. 

Edited January 15, 2020 by Hugo Stiglitz

[henrygandorf 29177]

3 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

Both of them should have taken huge dumps on CNN over it. They both gave it more life than it deserved. The best response would have been for both of them to say that they're not going to respond to CNN's attempts to manufacture drama to tear down the only candidates who actually have records of giving a shit about ordinary people. 

except the whole thing likely started (with or without liz's knowledge) by someone from the warren campaign slipping this nugget to mj lee or whomever from cnn is on the warren beat.

this happened over a year ago.  you think the timing of the leak is a coincidence with the last debate about to air on cnn?

[wildcat09 29256]

Just now, henrygandorf said:

except the whole thing likely started (with or without liz's knowledge) by someone from the warren campaign slipping this nugget to mj lee or whomever from cnn is on the warren beat.

this happened over a year ago.  you think the timing of the leak is a coincidence with the last debate about to air on cnn?

I made it pretty clear upthread that I don't.

[Hugo Stiglitz 23356]

So when are we moving on from this?  Pete can still win. 

[FondrenRoad 4378]

1 hour ago, bad_teammate said:

She just tried to humiliate their boy live on TV, calm down.

If Bernie had snubbed Warren like that do you really think her Twitter army would be all understanding and chill?

I'm surprised by the handshake snub. Don't know what her intent was by it.  It did appear intentional though.  I expect they will both be cordial in the future. 

Also Warren doesn't have a Twitter army. Her supporters support ideals and policy positions, not an individual cult of personality. I can see why a Bernie Bro wouldn't understand that though. Kind of like left wing versions of Trumpers.  At least Bernie has good policy positions.  But that cult of personality will make it hard for him to govern if he wins. Warren will get M4A passed with some small compromises to the center. Bernie will just have gridlock and we will be stuck with our current situation.   You really can't operate like it's a mandate when you would have less than half of Democratic reps completely on board, and even a smaller amount of Senators. Whether or not you, or I, want the Dems to be a big tent, they are. 

[Hugo Stiglitz 23356]

 

[Hank Scorpio 17723]

15 minutes ago, FondrenRoad said:

I'm surprised by the handshake snub. Don't know what her intent was by it.  It did appear intentional though.  I expect they will both be cordial in the future. 

Also Warren doesn't have a Twitter army. Her supporters support ideals and policy positions, not an individual cult of personality. I can see why a Bernie Bro wouldn't understand that though. Kind of like left wing versions of Trumpers.  At least Bernie has good policy positions.  But that cult of personality will make it hard for him to govern if he wins. Warren will get M4A passed with some small compromises to the center. Bernie will just have gridlock and we will be stuck with our current situation.   You really can't operate like it's a mandate when you would have less than half of Democratic reps completely on board, and even a smaller amount of Senators. Whether or not you, or I, want the Dems to be a big tent, they are. 

This is the stupidest thing posted on this thread, and Hugo posts here constantly. 
 

 

[bad_teammate 13132]

1 hour ago, Hank Kingsley said:

People familiar with the exchange said Ms. Warren walked over and told Mr. Sanders that she was concerned that, during the debate, he had mischaracterized a conversation they had in 2018 about whether a woman could win the presidency. She has accused him of saying that a woman could not; he has denied that remark.

Appearing frustrated, Mr. Sanders asked to discuss the matter at a different time, said the people, who insisted on anonymity to discuss a sensitive, private conversation. He pointed his finger toward her, then back at himself, before turning and walking away.

"WHEN WILL BERNIE LET THIS GO!?!?!" - CR Braintrust

[Hugo Stiglitz 23356]

She’s kinda obligated to make an effort to reconcile and give Bernie an opportunity set it straight.  He apparently wanted to move on.  

[bad_teammate 13132]

Bernie and his people are 100% on point.

 

[Js1 85110]

56 minutes ago, Hank Scorpio said:

This is the stupidest thing posted on this thread, and Hugo posts here constantly. 
 

 

Hahahaha. Out of rep but I laughed out loud 

[bad_teammate 13132]

8 minutes ago, longhornmatt said:

Lol.  Nobody had called Elizabeth Warren a snake to my knowledge.  Nice “he stopped beating his wife a long time ago” tweet, Omar.

For a few hours after the debate, Twitter was flooded with snake emojis.

Edited January 15, 2020 by bad_teammate

[Chuckie Finster 22600]

1 minute ago, bad_teammate said:

For a few hours after the debate, Twitter was flooded with snake emojis.

Oh no, not emojis!

[bad_teammate 13132]

 

[Hugo Stiglitz 23356]

9 minutes ago, longhornmatt said:

Nobody had called Elizabeth Warren a snake to my knowledge.

Yeah, you’re going to need to read the replies to this tweet or any other Warren tweet in the past 24 hours.

  

[Hugo Stiglitz 23356]

The thing you want to do when your candidate is winning is post endless snake emojis and memes at their opponent.  

[Chuckie Finster 22600]

By the way, fuck each and every person who insists on making THIS dumbass conflict the story of the day rather than the Hyde/Parnas stuff.

[bad_teammate 13132]

lol Bernie! Bernie! Bernie!

[Hugo Stiglitz 23356]

You love to see it

[washparkhorn 9935]

Progressive circular firing squad underway. 

Dumb as fuck. 

[bad_teammate 13132]

Team Bernie is fucking trying, man. 

But it has to be reciprocal.

[washparkhorn 9935]

The longer it continues, the more it cleaves apart progressives at a time when all are needed. Absolutely stupid. The 15% rule in Iowa is to blame. It won't work, but it will hurt both of them if there is not a reconciliation - soon.

[bad_teammate 13132]

It's funny to know that people who are getting PTSD from Twitter aren't actually suffering from Bernie Bros breaking their brains, it is them screaming at each other about Bernie Bros that is breaking their brains.

The biggest #NeverWarren posts are not Bernie people at all. It's full-on Streisand Effect.

1 kid pokes the hive, 500 bees swarm out and end up killing each other

 

[Hank Kingsley 20704]

 

[washparkhorn 9935]

Just now, bad_teammate said:

It's funny to know that people who are getting PTSD from Twitter aren't actually suffering from Bernie Bros breaking their brains, it is them screaming at each other about Bernie Bros that is breaking their brains.

The biggest #NeverWarren posts are not Bernie people at all. It's full-on Streisand Effect.

1 kid pokes the hive, 500 bees swarm out and end up killing each other

 

Therein lies the problem. It's like a virus. Unleash the genie and you cannot get it back in the bottle again. Social media is a cancer on society. In Real Life is so much more effective. One on one conversations are so much more nourishing to the soul. The algos are idiotic - by design. 

[washparkhorn 9935]

5 minutes ago, Hank Kingsley said:

 

Congrats to Pete. Anne is one hell of a rugby player and astronaut. 

Edited January 15, 2020 by washparkhorn

[bad_teammate 13132]

1 minute ago, washparkhorn said:

Therein lies the problem. It's like a virus. Unleash the genie and you cannot get it back in the bottle again. Social media is a cancer on society. In Real Life is so much more effective. One on one conversations are so much more nourishing to the soul. The algos are idiotic - by design. 

Yep, they want clicks.

BernieBonglord420 posts a snake emoji, and BigStructuralBailey RTs it to say, "THIS IS HORRIBLE!"

I follow BSB and agree it's horrible, so I like and RT. That chain reaction begins.

Bonglord is getting a reaction, so he screencaps a reply he can mock and posts a response to it, he starts getting RTs and likes. His chain reaction begins.

In the scrum in the comments to those Tweets, new and fresh outrages arise.

Dialogue and thought is poisoned, and Jack Dorsey gets a nice dividend.

[Hugo Stiglitz 23356]

So we’re supposed to believe the lady with all the plans, the only candidate to overtake Biden in the polls over the past year, and the one that has never lost an election has terrible political instincts?  Yeah we’re going to need to see how this plays out.  

I hope the bullshit ends for the sake of the movement but someone is going to have to lose eventually.