2020 Democratic Nominee

[bad_teammate 13485]

Just now, Brisketexan said:

Yep.  I can't POSSIBLY see why millions of voters would be ripshit pissed at being given a choice between which political terrorist movement to vote for.  That's AWESOME!  We should be GRATEFUL for the chance!

Bernie's a lot like Jesus, I guess.  I like the guy....but his supporters have a sizable faction that sucks.

I knew what I was getting even wading back into this thread, and I'm utterly unsurprised.  Y'all keep on keeping on.

Brisket doesn't believe what he says or even really think about it. He likes rageposting.

Logic and reasoning are immaterial. In fact, they're a hindrance.

So glad you stopped by, Brisket, now fuck off back to the ledge where you can formulate some Epic Rage Posts in a safe environment with easier targets to try and hit.

[GSU&UT 1799]

2 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Yep.  I can't POSSIBLY see why millions of voters would be ripshit pissed at being given a choice between which political terrorist movement to vote for.  That's AWESOME!  We should be GRATEFUL for the chance!

Bernie's a lot like Jesus, I guess.  I like the guy....but his supporters have a sizable faction that sucks.

I knew what I was getting even wading back into this thread, and I'm utterly unsurprised.  Y'all keep on keeping on.

Yeah, I really want to be like you where I chastise people's voting choices while I'm outraged that someone would do so to me.

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

Brisket doing serious work today in this thread.  I’ve given up trying to rationalize with many of the Bernie people because they’re mostly cultist that ignore political realities and believe winning an election will somehow fix things. This is a long game, Bernie isn’t a bad guy, but he’s nowhere close to the answer this country needs right now as far as leadership.  If he wins great but his victory will likely make the fight more difficult for the folks that want to move the country in the right direction because we’ll be fighting backlash he’s not equipped to deal with. Keep dreaming though Berners, I respect your passion.

[David Dennison 19444]

Anyone who votes for Bernie Sanders in the primary but doesn't vote for any other Democrat in the general can go fuck themselves.

[tantric superman 4668]

Remember when Trump won because HRC was a shitty candidate?

The Dem challengers to Sanders in this primary aren't very good either. 

Just because I don't begrudge Sanders winning this thing (like Brisket, I like the guy but I frankly like all the Dems) doesn't mean I think he has a decent shot at beating Trump.

That's the way it goes.  I would feel lots more comfortable with a politician who wants to get where Bernie is going but in a much more conservative fashion, and who has some pizazz.

Not my year I guess.

[David Dennison 19444]

1 minute ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

Brisket doing serious work today in this thread.  I’ve given up trying to rationalize with many of the Bernie people because they’re mostly cultist that ignore political realities and believe winning an election will somehow fix things. This is a long game, Bernie isn’t a bad guy, but he’s nowhere close to the answer this country needs right now as far as leadership.  If he wins great but his victory will likely make the fight more difficult for the folks that want to move the country in the right direction because we’ll be fighting backlash he’s not equipped to deal with. Keep dreaming though Berners, I respect your passion.

Who is the answer this country needs right now as far as leadership is concerned?

[Hank Scorpio 17924]

6 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Yep.  I can't POSSIBLY see why millions of voters would be ripshit pissed at being given a choice between which political terrorist movement to vote for.  That's AWESOME!  We should be GRATEFUL for the chance!

Bernie's a lot like Jesus, I guess.  I like the guy....but his supporters have a sizable faction that sucks.

I knew what I was getting even wading back into this thread, and I'm utterly unsurprised.  Y'all keep on keeping on.

 

[Hank Scorpio 17924]

4 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

Brisket doing serious work today in this thread.  I’ve given up trying to rationalize with many of the Bernie people because they’re mostly cultist that ignore political realities and believe winning an election will somehow fix things. This is a long game, Bernie isn’t a bad guy, but he’s nowhere close to the answer this country needs right now as far as leadership.  If he wins great but his victory will likely make the fight more difficult for the folks that want to move the country in the right direction because we’ll be fighting backlash he’s not equipped to deal with. Keep dreaming though Berners, I respect your passion.

 

 

[bad_teammate 13485]

Climbing inside Brisket's brain...

Premise A) Trump, political terrorist: Wants to build a wall between the US and Mexico, lock babies up in cages, sell our military out as a mercenary force, let increasing numbers of Americans die for lack of healthcare, continue a terrible drug war that kills thousands and ruins millions, strip women of their right to choose, stop all efforts to combat climate change, etc...

Premise B) Bernie, political terrorist: Wants to make peace globally, end deportation completely, draw back our military, give coverage to 100% of Americans, end the drug war, guarantee abortion rights to every woman, institute the most aggressive Green New Deal plan, etc...

-- BEING EQUALLY MAD ABOUT EACH PREMISE --

Just as massive, MASSIVE political brain. Legendary shit. Like poetry.

4 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

Anyone who votes for Bernie Sanders in the primary but doesn't vote for any other Democrat in the general can go fuck themselves.

Fine. Do you acknowledge that the older and whiter a person is, the more likely it is that they will abandon the Democrat?

[JimmyJames 12271]

People who think trump is gonna win again who aren’t mouthbreathing trumpkin morons confuse me. Y’all are seriously underestimating how many people despised Hillary then and how many people despise trump now.
 

Thousands of trump voters die every day. Thousands of dem voters get newly registered every day. 
 

If it wasn’t for the electoral college the election this fall would be a rout. As it is, the dems win fairly easily unless the vote in Michigan, Wisconsin and Pennsylvania gets manipulated again. I’ll admit that’s possible. 

Edited January 20, 2020 by JimmyJames

[David Dennison 19444]

2 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

Climbing inside Brisket's brain...

Premise A) Trump, political terrorist: Wants to build a wall between the US and Mexico, lock babies up in cages, sell our military out as a mercenary force, let increasing numbers of Americans die for lack of healthcare, continue a terrible drug war that kills thousands and ruins millions, strip women of their right to choose, stop all efforts to combat climate change, etc...

Premise B) Bernie, political terrorist: Wants to make peace globally, end deportation completely, draw back our military, give coverage to 100% of Americans, end the drug war, guarantee abortion rights to every woman, institute the most aggressive Green New Deal plan, etc...

-- BEING EQUALLY MAD ABOUT EACH PREMISE --

Just as massive, MASSIVE political brain. Legendary shit. Like poetry.

Fine. Do you acknowledge that the older and whiter a person is, the more likely it is that they will abandon the Democrat?

I have no way of knowing that, but they can go fuck themselves if they do.

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

6 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

Who is the answer this country needs right now as far as leadership is concerned?

I don’t think anyone can fix this mess by themselves but one clearly gives us a better shot than the others and you who she is. 

[Brisketexan 106693]

Well, I said I LIKE Bernie. And I clearly loathe trump. So, the causes are wildly different.
But ignore the parallels between zealot supporters at your peril. Zealots are fucking dangerous, no matter their cause.

[GSU&UT 1799]

Just now, Brisketexan said:

Well, I said I LIKE Bernie. And I clearly loathe trump. So, the causes are wildly different.
But ignore the parallels between zealot supporters at your peril. Zealots are fucking dangerous, no matter their cause.

You're fucking awful. How dare we defend our preferred candidate because we identify with him and dare say that we'll still support whoever the nominee is.

[bad_teammate 13485]

Trumpkins are an all-white group of people who engage in violently racist hate speech and mass murder. They want death and pain for billions around the globe. They want suffering at home.

Please tell me about the fucking parallels you god damned simpleton.

[bad_teammate 13485]

5 minutes ago, GSU&UT said:

You're fucking awful. How dare we defend our preferred candidate because we identify with him and dare say that we'll still support whoever the nominee is.

Someone made a Photoshop of Elizabeth warren and Rachel Dolezal.

That's kind of like when someone shoots up a mosque.

#LedgeBrain

[Brisketexan 106693]

Trumpkins are an all-white group of people who engage in violently racist hate speech and mass murder. They want death and pain for billions around the globe. They want suffering at home.
Please tell me about the fucking parallels you god damned simpleton.

Sure. Someone who won’t compromise because they know what’s good for me can be just as terrifying as someone who won’t compromise because they hate me. The road to hell, paved with good intentions, all that. I’d not care if your out to “help” or not...good intentions have killed/ruined millions, too.
Oh, and GS, if you’ll support the eventual nominee, great. That’s important, and I’m glad to hear it.
How many of your fellow supporters won’t? That matters, particularly in a race that can and will be decided by a few votes in a few states.
Support your guy. Support him passionately. Plenty do, and I’m all for it. Characterize every other alternative as pure shit, to the point that we KNOW that many Bernie supporters will not support any other candidate and will even work/vote against them? Not good. This ain’t about my feelings - I don’t care, my feelings don’t matter. It’s about the outright hatred and contempt shown for other Dems who are also trying to beat Donald Trump. It’s everywhere, you and I see it and know it. And it’s poison.
Again, noting that there are some dem candidates I’m not crazy about (including the likely nominee, Biden), I don’t hate or hold any of them in utter contempt like many Bernie supporters do.
But again, they aren’t interested in anything less than true-believerism, so nothing any of us say or do matters. This is gonna play out like it was always going to.

[GSU&UT 1799]

You people have collectively forgotten about 2008 and somehow manage to blame the group of people who deserve the least amount of scorn. It's absolutely insane the lack of critical thinking skills on display.

Newsflash idiots, this happens every single year regardless of the Republican nominee. 

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

If you want to draw parallels to 2008 then nominating a glass ceiling breaking inspiring minority with an articulate vision that has never run for President before probably makes the most sense. 

[BradInATX 9208]

5 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

If you want to draw parallels to 2008 then nominating a glass ceiling breaking inspiring minority with an articulate vision that has never run for President before probably makes the most sense. 

I agree. A Liz victory would really open up doors for our Native American friends too.

Edited January 20, 2020 by BradInATX

[BradInATX 9208]

24 minutes ago, GSU&UT said:

You people have collectively forgotten about 2008 and somehow manage to blame the group of people who deserve the least amount of scorn. It's absolutely insane the lack of critical thinking skills on display.

Newsflash idiots, this happens every single year regardless of the Republican nominee. 

Nobody has forgotten. But comparing 2008 to 2016 is ridiculous.

A disenfranchised person on the left voting for Romney or Ralph Nader is quite different than Donald Trump. Romney and Obama were your standard moderate Dem and Rep candidates. Romney wasn't normalizing racism and hatred. He was just your run of the mill corporatist guy. Voting for him, while stupid, isn't massively offensive.

It's within the realm of reason to think that a Clinton primary supporter would relate more closely to Romney than Obama on the issues. Especially because at the time, Obama was considered well to the left of Hillary.

Supporting a Democratic Socialist then switching to a overtly corrupt racist fascist is completely different. It is absolutely not within the realm of reason to think that a Bernie primary supporter relates more closely to Trump than Hillary on the issues. Making that switch was done purely out of emotion, spite, and memes. It is simply not a rational or acceptable thing to do.

I'm not saying that no Hillary->Romney voters did it out of spite. I'm sure some did. But trying to compare the two years is a silly, apples to hard-boiled eggs comparison. It's dumb, and you know it. It's FAR more unreasonable and ridiculous for a Berner to go to Trump than it was a Hillary supporter to go to Romney. Night and day.

Edited January 20, 2020 by BradInATX

[Zonahorn 8079]

7 minutes ago, BradInATX said:

I agree. A Liz victory would really open up doors for our Native American friends too.

So you do have a sense of humor

[bad_teammate 13485]

21 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Someone who won’t compromise because they know what’s good for me can be just as terrifying as someone who won’t compromise because they hate me.

Notice how you continually put yourself and your feelings at the center of all of this?

No facts. No coherent reasoning. Just personal feelings of grievance. 

Quote

How many of your fellow supporters won’t?

Fewer than those of candidates with older and whiter voters.

When you're deriding Bernie's base, you're pretending it's a bunch of white guys. It's not. He's got more donations from women than any other candidate. His base is young and diverse.

Quote

Characterize every other alternative as pure shit, to the point that we KNOW that many Bernie supporters will not support any other candidate and will even work/vote against them? Not good.  ... It’s about the outright hatred and contempt shown for other Dems who are also trying to beat Donald Trump.

You're the one who came flouncing in calling the Bernie Bros a "cult" and now you're whining about decorum?

Just now, BradInATX said:

It's within the realm of reason to think that a Clinton primary supporter would relate more closely to Romney than Obama on the issues.

Mitt Romney was not the Republican nominee in 2008.

Quote

Supporting a Democratic Socialist then switching to a fascist is completely different.

Yes, which is why Bernie->Trump happened at less than half the rate than Hillary->McCain did.

[bad_teammate 13485]

How center-right concern trolls think this works...

 

[bad_teammate 13485]

The Potemkin Candidate

 

[RDCanecutter 26858]

8 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

The Potemkin Candidate

 

All that will change once Pon Farr is upon us.

[henrygandorf 29223]

42 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

Yes, which is why Bernie->Trump happened at less than half the rate than Hillary->McCain did.

i don't want to get in the middle of...whatever this whole thing is, but when i first brought this up (prompting the 2008 comp), my initial comment wasn't so much about bernie supporters switching to trump, as much as bernie supporters sitting out under protest, feeling that (rightfully so) the country had fucked up, made their bed (biden), and now would be forced to lie in it.  that and the possibility that bernie could get screwed again, like he did in 2016, which would provide even more of a reason for bernie folk to throw up their hands and say fuck it.

i mentioned it as a possibility, and in the first handful of responses, one of the bernie people on here (i can't remember who) said "yeah, that sounds about where i am" (or something similar).  i don't think it's an outrageous claim to say those people are out there.  and considering bernie supporters seem to be the most fervent, one could posit such a potential outcome.  also considering there's no love lost between berners and the current democratic party establishment, it would shock absolutely nobody to see blocs of voters refuse to vote for biden.

now if someone told me that the number of biden voters that ended up voting trump over bernie was higher than the number of bernie people voting trump over biden, that's something that's easily believable, though impossible to track (old whiteys, i get it) as is the number of people just sitting out.

today i saw biden explaining that bernie and warren would make it more difficult for down-ticket dems.  no idea how true that is, or what it's even based on, but reverting to that line of propaganda in mid-january seems like desperation at the very least.

[tantric superman 4668]

My theory -

People older than 65 - dumb shits, racist, Trump supporters.

People between 50 - 64.  Old school. Naive about the dangers of complacency.  Thjnk Bernie and Warren are big fucking mistakes. 

People under the age of 49.  Will realize in 2021 that they need both the Trumpists and the old school Moderates to die.

 

[SaucyJack 3517]

[bad_teammate 13485]

2016 Bernie Bros in likely descending order of prevalence...

Category A - Bernie Primary -> Hillary General

These are just left-of-center people, yes? Fairly banal group of predictable voters.

Category B - Bernie Primary -> Trump General

Left-of-center politically but so enraged by the DNC's collusion with Hillary that they protest voted for Trump? Or are they right-of-center people that were brought in by Bernie's populist economic message who were only ever there for Bernie? I think the second is the explanation that makes far more sense for the majority of them and is heavily supported by research.)

Category C - Bernie Primary -> Stein General

Clearly left-of-center people, yes? Definitely some people who would never vote Democratic because that's too right-wing for them, yes? Definitely some people who went to Stein to protest Clinton/DNC?

Maybe not.

Using the above data, the strong majority were weak Dem or lower. In fact, it might be the case that Bernie->Johnson is more common than Bernie->Stein. An angry centrist/center-right isn't going to vote for weirdo Jill.

Category D - Bernie Primary -> Top-Line Blank

An underdiscussed category, I think, are the people who just straight up left "President" blank and voted down-ballot. I considered this briefly. I would not be surprised if this was actually more common than voting for Stein. Exit polling suggests this number was actually pretty huge. No way to know.

Category E - Bernie Primary -> Stay Home

Again, this is probably bigger than Stein. Not voting cohort is MUCH stronger Dem than the 3rd party switchers. These are gettable votes that Clinton straight-up failed to get even with Bernie doing 40+ campaign rallies for her.

Can we quantify how much of their disdain for Hillary is Bernie related? Nope. That's tea leaves reading. Remember, Hillary had decades of negativity built up before we even knew Bernie's name.

Category F - Bernie Primary -> Johnson General

Despite the data above, which is complex and difficult to parse, this one doesn't ~*~ fEeL ~*~ right to me.

----------------------------------------------

So which categories and subsets of categories are we actually worried about, because when you break it down rationally it's fractions of percents.

[F250 29181]

2 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

And believe me, I am POSITIVE that you don't know a single thing about a proper blowjob -- on that point, I'm pretty comfortable with my certainty.

[Thetexashammer 1062]

4 minutes ago, F250 said:

I guess Brisket has lots of practice at proper blowjobs.

Edited January 20, 2020 by Thetexashammer

[JimmyJames 12271]

1 minute ago, Thetexashammer said:

I guess Brisket has lots of practice at proper blowjobs.

Stop ruining a good joke by F250.

[bonnieblue 542]

If someone needed to vindicate that NYT endorsement, this thread should serve as Exhibit A. Sheesh, men are apparently way too fucking emotional. Pull up your big boy briefs, vote for your candidate, and support the eventual nominee.

[bad_teammate 13485]

This is one of those issues where center-left Dems will be in 5 years pretending they were there the whole time.

[edit]

don't show this to Brisket because this is a real photo of me and Bernard

 

Edited January 21, 2020 by bad_teammate

[washparkhorn 9968]

4 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

First campaign I ever worked for was a Dem campaign, but okay.  If you want me, and those like me -- folks who are part of a pretty broad center to center-left coalition -- to "sit down and shut up and do what we're told"....well, fuck you.  You are damned near everything that we hate about Trumpism, too.

 

First campaign I worked on was Gary Hart's. As a kid that really hit me hard. Who knew there were so many hot Democratic supporters.

[bad_teammate 13485]

Warren and Bernie have been suitably run through the wringer by the media.

Biden is still mostly getting a pass.

Pete has gotten bruised hard.

Time for them to actually pay attention to the NYT-endorsed Klobbinator.

[henrygandorf 29223]

2 hours ago, bad_teammate said:

2016 Bernie Bros in likely descending order of prevalence...

Category A - Bernie Primary -> Hillary General

These are just left-of-center people, yes? Fairly banal group of predictable voters.

Category B - Bernie Primary -> Trump General

Left-of-center politically but so enraged by the DNC's collusion with Hillary that they protest voted for Trump? Or are they right-of-center people that were brought in by Bernie's populist economic message who were only ever there for Bernie? I think the second is the explanation that makes far more sense for the majority of them and is heavily supported by research.)

Category C - Bernie Primary -> Stein General

Clearly left-of-center people, yes? Definitely some people who would never vote Democratic because that's too right-wing for them, yes? Definitely some people who went to Stein to protest Clinton/DNC?

Maybe not.

Using the above data, the strong majority were weak Dem or lower. In fact, it might be the case that Bernie->Johnson is more common than Bernie->Stein. An angry centrist/center-right isn't going to vote for weirdo Jill.

Category D - Bernie Primary -> Top-Line Blank

An underdiscussed category, I think, are the people who just straight up left "President" blank and voted down-ballot. I considered this briefly. I would not be surprised if this was actually more common than voting for Stein. Exit polling suggests this number was actually pretty huge. No way to know.

Category E - Bernie Primary -> Stay Home

Again, this is probably bigger than Stein. Not voting cohort is MUCH stronger Dem than the 3rd party switchers. These are gettable votes that Clinton straight-up failed to get even with Bernie doing 40+ campaign rallies for her.

Can we quantify how much of their disdain for Hillary is Bernie related? Nope. That's tea leaves reading. Remember, Hillary had decades of negativity built up before we even knew Bernie's name.

Category F - Bernie Primary -> Johnson General

Despite the data above, which is complex and difficult to parse, this one doesn't ~*~ fEeL ~*~ right to me.

----------------------------------------------

So which categories and subsets of categories are we actually worried about, because when you break it down rationally it's fractions of percents.

i think you put a decent amount of time and effort into this, but the main issue is that you're basing this list on voters who have a brain and actually know what different candidates stand for, and that they're basing their decisions on this information.

i think the reality is that a ton of people in america are idiots, who vote with their gut, and are more likely to change their minds based on a candidate's personality, a soundbyte, a persuasive friend, a meme, or general bigotry, than they are on actual policy or ideology.

it's hard to make sense of these people, and their movements are entirely unpredictable.

 

***i'm referring to people who change their votes/preferences in general, not just people who go from bernie specifically to someone else.  i'm sure there were plenty of people who went from hillary -> mccain that weren't considering policy.

[bad_teammate 13485]

3 minutes ago, henrygandorf said:

it's hard to make sense of these people, and their movements are entirely unpredictable.

This doesn't square with your constant fear-mongering regarding Bernie voters.

[henrygandorf 29223]

2 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

This doesn't square with your constant fear-mongering regarding Bernie voters.

i said idiots are unpredictable.

what are you talking about?

[henrygandorf 29223]

also "constant fear-mongering"?  lulz.

[bad_teammate 13485]

10 minutes ago, henrygandorf said:

what are you talking about?

You regularly express a completely disingenuous "worry" that the Bernie people are going to go to Trump or to a 3rd party or sit out completely. I offer statistics-based breakdowns and thoughts, but since that's not really how you operate, your response is just, "Uh... well... in that case, who knows!?"

Give it 3-4 days and you'll be back to it. If it takes that long for the cycle to repeat.

[henrygandorf 29223]

5 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

You regularly express a completely disingenuous "worry" that the Bernie people are going to go to Trump or to a 3rd party or sit out completely. I offer statistics-based breakdowns and thoughts, but since that's not really how you operate, your response is just, "Uh... well... in that case, who knows!?"

Give it 3-4 days and you'll be back to it. If it takes that long for the cycle to repeat.

you must have me confused with someone who gives you a hard time on twitter.

about a month ago, someone basically accused you of being one of those bros who votes for trump when bernie isn't the nominee.  i replied and said i wasn't worried about you (because i thought his comment was inaccurate) and i said i was more worried about bros that could potentially sit out because "fuck you america, you had your chance and you blew it".  i also characterized "america blowing it" by nominating biden as accurate.

i might've posted 1-2 more times in that discussion, but nothing demonstrative.

then a month later, i posted what, 3x today on the subject?  2/3 were about how i wasn't sure that statistical comp was relevant.  the 3rd time i basically rehashed what i said a month ago.  and a grand total of zero times did i respond by saying "uh, well in that case, who knows!?"

if that's constant fear-mongering, then hey, you got me.

[Hank Scorpio 17924]

 

 

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

[washparkhorn 9968]

poor pete getting dragged again - 

 

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

[Bookman 4754]

15 hours ago, GSU&UT said:

Why in the hell would I vote for anyone who is more safe in the primary if they don't align with my values? That's the goddamned point of a primary.

The point of the primary is to choose a candidate -- preferably one with the best chance to win the general election.

[GSU&UT 1799]

41 minutes ago, Bookman said:

The point of the primary is to choose a candidate -- preferably one with the best chance to win the general election.

How does this contradict what I said? 

[Bookman 4754]

1 hour ago, GSU&UT said:

How does this contradict what I said? 

Choosing a candidate and voting for the candidate who best reflects your values are two different things.