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2020 Democratic Nominee

used2b

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Huckleberry
Huckleberry

No it doesn't, this is absurd selfishness on a grand scale. Nobody is getting punished. My wife and I paid off our student loans, and you know what I think about younger people or even those in our ge

henrygandorf
henrygandorf

i’ve really enjoyed the 900 posts from bt explaining how bernie people aren’t aggressive, obsessive, and very-online.  truly a learning experience. 

Bill Clinton
Bill Clinton

3rd or 4th thread but whos counting.  Name recognition and ability to collect money is most important to the Democratic Party. They aren't trying to win 2020, they are trying to rebuild and colle

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bad_teammate

bad_teammate 13132

Posted
Posted
2 minutes ago, Biff Tannen said:

So yes.  Gotcha.  So repressed, you are.

Am I claiming to be repressed? What point are you trying to make?

Bernie is a widely popular political figure. He's been the most popular Senator for year after year after year. He won a ton of delegates as a nobody insurgent in 2016. His volunteer base is not even close to being touched. His fundraising is historic in general and especially historic because of just how many people believe in him.

Proposition A: The people love Bernie Sanders.

Proposition B: The media class does not.

Do you actually disagree with either of these propositions?

8 minutes ago, Js1 said:

The Bros don’t care or like or respect the political or media establishment but they worry a lot about them. 

We don't like or respect Donald Trump, but we worry about him. I don't like or respect global warming, but I worry about it.

Why? Because they have power.

The national media establishment has tremendous power, and it can either use that power for good or bad. I want them to use it for good. That doesn't mean I think they should be overt Bernie boosters. What I expect from them is journalistic integrity and for them to operate in service of the masses and not the corporate power structures.

Again, Bernie Sanders, the most obvious energy in the fight against Donald Trump's re-election, a fundraising juggernaut with a widely diverse base of support, got 1 vote from the NYT editorial board. What do you think that says about the NYT editorial board?

The NYT editorial board gave the imprimatur of liberal acceptance to W's war on Iraq.

The NYT editorial board cheerled the attempted coup in Venezuela and the successful coup in Bolivia.

The NYT editorial board has power. Where do you think their values lie?

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washparkhorn

washparkhorn 9935

Posted
Posted
11 minutes ago, Js1 said:

The Bros don’t care or like or respect the political or media establishment but they worry a lot about them. 

Sort of . . . 

Actually some of us Sanders' supporters - regardless of gender - think the establishment fright makes Sanders' a little more dope . . .

BTW - hard link for those without twitter friendly browser or on Tapa - https://twitter.com/BluesAndNoise/status/1220393992724144129

 

 

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Biff Tannen

Biff Tannen 45492

Posted
Posted
3 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

Bernie is a widely popular political figure. He's been the most popular Senator for year after year after year. He won a ton of delegates as a nobody insurgent in 2016. His volunteer base is not even close to being touched. His fundraising is historic in general and especially historic because of just how many people believe in him.

Proposition A: The people love Bernie Sanders.

Proposition B: The media class does not.

Do you actually disagree with either of these propositions?

I think lack of media attention isn't a bad thing, as the polls bear out, and also that lack of media attention doesn't have to mean they hate him.  Not sure what would be in it for them anyway.  Just seems like the Bros whine a lot while their guy is basically in first place.

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bad_teammate

bad_teammate 13132

Posted
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2 minutes ago, Biff Tannen said:

I think lack of media attention isn't a bad thing, as the polls bear out, and also that lack of media attention doesn't have to mean they hate him. 

At large, the media's treatment of Sanders has been either negligent, dismissive, or openly hostile. If you can seriously watch the CNN debate and argue against this I don't know if we can have a rational conversation.

Warren got/gets pure and unfiltered boosterism. (Also a lot of criticism, she definitely gets a range of coverage we would recognize as "fair" in some way. (I think that concept of "fair" is kind of pointless.))

Pete only exists as a candidate because of gleeful media pushing.

Was ignoring him bad for Bernie? Absolutely. His poll numbers stagnated (but didn't fall) because he was starved of media oxygen. Now that he's getting attention, the vast majority of which is hostile, his poll numbers are soaring. They hit him with nasty, nasty accusations and a televised debate that was framed as an attack ad and his polls went up.

It's not the lack of media attention that makes me think they hate him.

Proposition A: The people love Bernie Sanders.

Proposition B: The media class does not.

Do you actually disagree with either of these propositions?

Quote

Not sure what would be in it for them anyway. 

Careers. Airtime. Column space.

The people who write the checks hate Bernie. Do you actually disagree with that?

The people who make the hiring decisions take their cues from the people who write the checks. Do you actually disagree with that?

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Hank Kingsley

Hank Kingsley 20680

Posted
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17 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

Again, Bernie Sanders, the most obvious energy in the fight against Donald Trump's re-election, a fundraising juggernaut with a widely diverse base of support, got 1 vote from the NYT editorial board. What do you think that says about the NYT editorial board?

The NYT editorial board gave the imprimatur of liberal acceptance to W's war on Iraq.

The NYT editorial board cheerled the attempted coup in Venezuela and the successful coup in Bolivia.

The NYT editorial board has power. Where do you think their values lie?

Who gives a shit what an op-ed writer thinks. They're not moving the needle in this election. It's the actual journalists and reporters who matter, and I'd say the majority of them are sympathetic to Bernie at worst. 

Just because Bernie got 1 vote from the NYT board doesn't mean the rest hate Bernie. They prefer other candidates first. I mean, the NYT endorsement this year was turned into a punchline by everyone. It doesn't matter at all. 

The Intercept, The Nation, Jacobin, Current Affairs, The Young Turks...these are all media outlets that are hardcore pro-Bernie, and are publishing critiques of the other candidates. There's no "establishment" publication specifically in the bag for another candidate. It's an unusual situation that is really helping Bernie this time around IMO. 

 

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bad_teammate

bad_teammate 13132

Posted
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4 minutes ago, Hank Kingsley said:

Who gives a shit what an op-ed writer thinks.

The most powerful people in America.

Barack Obama religiously read everything David Brock and Thomas Friedman ever wrote.
Donald Trump's entire presidency is controlled by the #1 cable news channel.

It matters a lot. Journalism is important.

Quote

The Intercept, The Nation, Jacobin, Current Affairs, The Young Turks...these are all media outlets that are hardcore pro-Bernie, and are publishing critiques of the other candidates. There's no "establishment" publication specifically in the bag for another candidate. It's an unusual situation that is really helping Bernie this time around IMO. 

Yes, there are fringe online-only media outlets that the vast majority of Americans have never heard of... are you seriously comparing those to NYT and CNN in terms of influence and reach and power?

That's a joke.

You and Biff and the rest can just say, "I hate you and the Bernie bros, you annoy me."

And that's fine. Just stick to that. Because whatever bullshit you two are trying here makes no sense. Stop trying to rationalize it.

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Zonahorn

Zonahorn 8079

Posted
Posted
5 minutes ago, longhornmatt said:

The lack of media attention has actually been a very good thing for Bernie.  Look what happened to Warren’s polling within days of the media focus shifting to, “Warren is now the front runner ... say, how does this healthcare plan of hers actually work?”

Well, it could have been a good thing if her plan wasn't complete garbage.

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Hank Kingsley

Hank Kingsley 20680

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Posted

Alternate theory on the "lack of media attention" for Bernie: The media this time around are generally much more sympathetic to Bernie, therefore his coverage isn't that negative and makes it seem like no one is paying attention to him when that's not the reality.  

The dude had a heart attack 3.5 months ago at the age of 78.  And in general it was treated as nothing by the media. The overall discipline to treat the situation with kid gloves was pretty remarkable, and probably a testament to Bernie's authenticity and the respect people have for him as a human being. 

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bad_teammate

bad_teammate 13132

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Posted
1 minute ago, longhornmatt said:

No, not a joke.  Of course a super fan that lives on twitter and the internet can find a million random pot shots at all of the candidates and convince themselves their guy has been the one getting bad coverage nonstop.

Did you watch the CNN debate at all?

Quote

Nobody has bothered to get into the scare tactics on the details of his proposals in a high profile, coordinated way yet because they haven’t seen him as a big enough threat yet.

Every single debate has had a 45+ minute chunk where each candidate talks about how M4A is an expensive boondoggle. They even joked about it at the CNN debate, "Oh god, here we go again" after CNN's literal question was, "How would you keep your plans from bankrupting the country?"

2 minutes ago, Hank Kingsley said:

The dude had a heart attack 3.5 months ago at the age of 78.  And in general it was treated as nothing by the media.

It was topline news for days. They didn't ignore it.

I guess you mean that the op-ed shops didn't run a ton of, "This is disqualifying" op-eds? Sure, there were some in smaller outlets but mass media didn't really go there that hard.

But should they have?

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washparkhorn

washparkhorn 9935

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I think most of us know that cardiac care has vastly decreased mortality in the past 20 years. A real breakthrough in medicine. I don't see that as an issue for those serious about his health. For low information voters? Yes, but most of them know someone with stents and most younger people don't remember the old days when heart attacks killed a lot of people in their 40's and 50's. 

But your point is well taken. The media still suffers from elite bias on the publisher/editorial level, but "the kids are alright" and just waiting for the boomer bosses to "go away." 

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Hank Kingsley

Hank Kingsley 20680

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1 minute ago, bad_teammate said:

It was topline news for days. They didn't ignore it.

I guess you mean that the op-ed shops didn't run a ton of, "This is disqualifying" op-eds? Sure, there were some in smaller outlets but mass media didn't really go there that hard.

But should they have?

They didn't concern troll over it. The final result of that news cycle was they treated him respectfully and didn't make it a big deal. It really couldn't have been a better result for Bernie media-wise.

I think a lot of the pro-Hillary/establishment media that fought against Bernie in 2016 are holding back for a few reasons. 1. Hillary ended up losing to Trump 2. They don't have the energy or desire to go after him again because 3. pro-Bernie media and his campaign are well organized and ready to fight back

 

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Hugo Stiglitz

Hugo Stiglitz 23356

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, bad_teammate said:

So he's not far left, but he's got radical, unnormalized positions.

You can't even help from contradicting yourself within the same paragraph.

You’re just an insufferable troll at this point.  Nothing wrong with being radical.  The best presidents in US history were radical.  Bernie’s weakness is he doesn’t pushback well against the perception that he’s an extremist.  Extremist, whether real or perceived are bad because they further polarize the population.  We saw the rise of the tea party because Obama mostly ignored the false perception created about him.  Bernie would let the same shit happen again because he doesn’t do empathy well with those that disagree with him and neither do most of his supporters.  He’s also not physically or mentally up to the job of addressing the challenges we’re facing after Trump that go beyond class warfare.  He’s a bad candidate for this moment, but still better than Trump. 

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Js1

Js1 85104

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Posted
24 minutes ago, Hank Kingsley said:

Alternate theory on the "lack of media attention" for Bernie: The media this time around are generally much more sympathetic to Bernie, therefore his coverage isn't that negative and makes it seem like no one is paying attention to him when that's not the reality.  

The dude had a heart attack 3.5 months ago at the age of 78.  And in general it was treated as nothing by the media. The overall discipline to treat the situation with kid gloves was pretty remarkable, and probably a testament to Bernie's authenticity and the respect people have for him as a human being. 

78 year old man has heart attack that his campaign lies about initially. “Ho hum, glad he’s ok!”

68 year old woman faints due to pneumonia and dehydration and is whisked away abruptly. “IS SHE DYING? DID SHE DIE? WHO WILL DEMOCRATS REPLACE THE CORPSE OF HILLARY CLINTON WITH?” 

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bad_teammate

bad_teammate 13132

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4 minutes ago, Hank Kingsley said:

It really couldn't have been a better result for Bernie media-wise.

That's only because he was out of the hospital right away and back hard on the trail right away. If he had spent days and days in the hospital and then was out for weeks, it would've been a different story. Bernie didn't give them the breathing room to concern troll.

Quote

I think a lot of the pro-Hillary/establishment media that fought against Bernie in 2016 are holding back for a few reasons. 1. Hillary ended up losing to Trump 2. They don't have the energy or desire to go after him again because 3. pro-Bernie media and his campaign are well organized and ready to fight back

Who, specifically, are you thinking of?

Peter Daou has been converted to the Bros, so there's one down. Neera Tanden's brain is as powerfully drugged out as ever. A bunch of other more minor bit players in Clintonworld are still on fire.

But there probably are some who have stayed on the sidelines.

But #3 is very real. The power of the Bros is tremendous in this very specific world of terminally online social media. We are a rapid-response team. The "oh my god I have PTSD!" part is overblown because the Bros aren't beating people up and burning down synagogues, but we will HOUND online pundits for unfair or BS criticism so journalists and pundits who are too lazy to do real work would probably rather just avoid the fight.

And that's GOOD for Democrats at large, not just Bernie.

For instance, the Daily Beast ran a piece about how Bernie talking about "wage slavery" is racist and....

Profoundly stupid.

You can say something profoundly stupid about Pete and you won't catch hell. Say something profoundly stupid about Bernie? That's a whole different story. We will go back through your Twitter history and drag you.

Come at Bernie without your shit together and you are are at risk of being dunked on by "Goth Ms. Frizzle" who loves bones and them getting more likes than you and everyone laughing at you for being stupid and now your day online is ruined and your kids don't respect you anymore.

It's the most idiotic mortal terror that they live in, and it's a powerful weapon in our hands. It will do a lot of good work in the general if Bernie wins fighting back the MAGA horde. The Warren Warriors will shrink in fear of the MAGA chuds, we will meet them head on in the brain poisoned Internet battlefields.

It's all very stupid, and we're very good at it. We are the Unsullied, because we can't lose and we have never, ever had sex with a woman. And we wouldn't want to, because that would sap the energy we need for posting.

(I am very sorry for posting a GoT reference.)

2 minutes ago, longhornmatt said:

1. Asking a general question like, “How will you pay for all this?!?!” and then letting him answer and nobody really challenging his answer beyond that.

They didn't ask that.

They asked, "How would you keep your plans from bankrupting the country?"

And that's just one question. The entire debate was like this. It's obvious for people who care to pay honest attention.

Senator Sanders, some people say that you are responsible for Donald Trump being elected, how does that make you feel to know that the kids in cages are your fault?

8 minutes ago, longhornmatt said:

Also, Bernie’s weakness compared to Trump is that Bernie, although he will try to make the sale, will also actually be honest and acknowledge the uncomfortable parts of his plans when they do begin to become bigger stories.   That will make them snowball more.  Trump, on the other hand, just blatantly lies and says everything will be perfect for everyone.  That works better on a very large percentage of dumbass voters than admitting a weakness.

Bernie says as often as possible who is going to suffer the "uncomfortable" part of his vision; The Rich. He doesn't hide it. He says it loud and clear every damned speech We are gonna take on the fossil fuel industry. We are gonna take on Amazon. And on and on and on. He openly says, in speeches and debates, that we are going to replace your deductibles, premiums, and co-pays with taxes to cover universal, single-payer healthcare.

He will argue that we are going to pay less to get more and it's not a "lie". It's just a confident vision of the future, which is something party loyalists are unused to having or seeing.

And it's one you can disagree with, because you're going to pretend that deficits matter for some reason when they clearly don't and that paying $5k in taxes is somehow worse than paying $8k in private health charges. That doesn't make it a "lie", though.

10 minutes ago, Js1 said:

78 year old man has heart attack that his campaign lies about initially. “Ho hum, glad he’s ok!”

68 year old woman faints due to pneumonia and dehydration and is whisked away abruptly. “IS SHE DYING? DID SHE DIE? WHO WILL DEMOCRATS REPLACE THE CORPSE OF HILLARY CLINTON WITH?” 

So are you going to try to argue that the media dislikes Hillary, because that's going to be a laughably heavy lift.

Hillary was caught on video collapsing and being dragged into a van while a shoe fell off and was left behind. If Bernie had collapsed on stage and it was shot in well-lit HD then yeah, he would have been absolutely screwed.

Luckily for Bernie, that didn't happen.

Unluckily for Hillary, it probably cost her enough votes to swing that stupid election.

It's not because the media has it out for Hillary. lol my god

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David Dennison

David Dennison 18655

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Posted
4 hours ago, bad_teammate said:

As of now, I agree.

Give us Bros 6 months of Bernie winning and us beating the libs into submission on social media? WE SHALL SEE

In the general election, I am going to vote for whoever goes into the convention with a plurality of delegates. That is a reflection of the will of the people, and that's what I will respect. And I will encourage others to do the same.

If that's Liz, I write in Liz.
If that's Joe, I write in Joe.
If that's Bernard, I write in Bernard.

A party that puts a gun to the nation's head because of pathetic internal DC swamp monster squabbles is not a party I trust to fix this nation or even run in effectively and pleas to be loyal to them will fall on deaf ears.

And here's the hopeful part: The libs are already scared of us.

If the party cares about defeating Donald Trump, they will respect the will of the primary voters. I believe that a lot of people within the party are fine with a Trump presidency, as further evidenced by Hillary's latest foray into the election process.

And that will only help Donald Trump get re-elected. You should vote for the Democratic nominee no matter who it is.

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Hank Kingsley

Hank Kingsley 20680

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11 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

That's only because he was out of the hospital right away and back hard on the trail right away. If he had spent days and days in the hospital and then was out for weeks, it would've been a different story. Bernie didn't give them the breathing room to concern troll.

JFC.  Stop hero worshipping and give credit where credit is due every once in a while. He was treated respectfully by the “establishment” media you’re ready to demonize at every turn.

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bad_teammate

bad_teammate 13132

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19 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

And that will only help Donald Trump get re-elected. You should vote for the Democratic nominee no matter who it is.

Going against the will of the voters will help Donald Trump get re-elected. I'm not going to support a party that puts their own petty grievances over the will of the people.

But you do you, bud, and our red state votes will end up being equally pointless.

If you actually give a shit, you should be donating and volunteering for a candidate.

8 minutes ago, Hank Kingsley said:

JFC.  Stop hero worshipping and give credit where credit is due every once in a while. He was treated respectfully by the “establishment” media you’re ready to demonize at every turn.

The Corporate Media defender has logged in

I'm not arguing that the mass media is viciously attacking Bernie 24/7.

There was perfectly fair coverage of his heart attack.

Do you really think my video argument is disingenuous? Because it's basic common sense. If shit is on video, it's real. If it's not, it doesn't have nearly the impact.

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bad_teammate

bad_teammate 13132

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Posted
11 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

Bernie dropping out would have been a nightmare. They need him to stick around while they kneecapped Warren and elevated Pete/Amy. It will be interesting to see what they do with Bernie now that he’s up.  

Yeah gee I wonder if a current candidates campaign will launch a vicious personal attack and a former candidate will do the same. Maybe a network will dedicate 4 straight days to a full-on assault.

I guess we'll never know!

 

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mchookem

mchookem 16206

Posted
Posted

i'd be 100% on board with a Biden/Harris ticket.

or Bernie/Klobuchar. or Warren/Castro. or Biden/Pete. or Yang/Moonbat. 

or cabbage/dishrag. 

improving on the current situation is pretty much guaranteed.

I will vote my fav in the primary, and then go all-in on whomever. i'm going to be easy to please. 😎

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bad_teammate

bad_teammate 13132

Posted
Posted

That metaphor works for making you feel like a victim, a favored emotion of the reactionary sort, but it doesn't have much explanatory value.

Votes are things you win, and Bernie wins votes that other Dems don't. It's not a "threat" or a "hostage" situation, it's just the reality that this more independent candidate is very popular among independent voters, especially young voters who don't feel any loyalty to the Democrats.

Bernie doesn't have the power to compel these young and independent voters to vote for other candidates. He can tell them to, and he will, but those other candidates actually have to win them over.

Y'all want to win, right?

Or do you just want more Trump and a smug feeling of superiority?

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bad_teammate

bad_teammate 13132

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Posted (edited)

b_t Theory of Polls 2020:

If Joe Biden is winning, it's fake news, crooked media, lock her up.
If someone else is winning, it's real.

It's very simple, you guys.

Also, Bernie has promoted his #s versus Trump from the beginning. He even talks about those polls at rallies.

[edit]

One of the many things I've gotten for donating is a "BERNIE BEATS TRUMP" bumper sticker that specifically refers to head-to-head polls.

Edited by bad_teammate
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