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2020 Democratic Nominee

used2b

By used2b
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Huckleberry
Huckleberry

No it doesn't, this is absurd selfishness on a grand scale. Nobody is getting punished. My wife and I paid off our student loans, and you know what I think about younger people or even those in our ge

henrygandorf
henrygandorf

i’ve really enjoyed the 900 posts from bt explaining how bernie people aren’t aggressive, obsessive, and very-online.  truly a learning experience. 

Bill Clinton
Bill Clinton

3rd or 4th thread but whos counting.  Name recognition and ability to collect money is most important to the Democratic Party. They aren't trying to win 2020, they are trying to rebuild and colle

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troph

troph 24796

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Posted

I’m not doing your homework. Google is super easy and you can find dozens of Rogan racist, homophobic and transphobic statements. He’s a complete piece of shit on social issues. He provides an echo chamber for fragile white men and toxic masculinity that fosters ideas that I’m really not interested in repeating here.

I’m not a Bernie supporter but the fact that Rogan will vote for him doesn’t matter to me. The fact that other fragile white men will vote for him doesn’t matter to me.

Calling out my people and spreading lies and hate on mass listened to pod casts matters to me.

Calling out the most visible leader of the gay and trans rights movement and calling him essentially a corporate shill matters to me.

Rogan needs to be put in his place at every turn and Alphonso Davis and HRC are doing the lord’s work.

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bad_teammate

bad_teammate 13195

Posted
Posted
9 hours ago, BradInATX said:

In the interest of not commenting on things out of my depth here - can you provide some examples of what you mean?

Here's a compilation people put together.

From my perspective? The strong majority of this outrage is people characterizing him instead of actually quoting him. He's said plenty of dumb shit, but I've seen surprisingly little given that he lives with a microphone attached to him and has literally thousands of hours of completely unscripted material to go through.

The N-word:

Were any of those him calling someone the n-word or otherwise using it as a slur? It's a bunch of quick splicing without any context.

I don't think he should say it at all, but there's a mile difference between calling someone the n-word and referencing it in another way.

Transphobia:

The Fallon Fox thing, which is where most (all?) of the transphobia accusations come from, he's right on the merits (but his wording and tone are often disparaging). A woman who is transitioning after 30 years of living and growing and developing as a biological man should not fight ciswomen in a combat sport without disclosing that beforehand so that ciswoman knows what's up. Sexual dimorphism is real. He's not even saying they shouldn't fight.

For those interested, here's Rogan talking about it.

The way he talks about it is callous. His use of words is imprecise. But who actually disagrees on the substance?

(That 19 minute clip is about 2.5 minutes of substance. My GOD he repeats himself so much. I guess that's why his shows are 3 hours long.)

1 minute ago, Hank Kingsley said:

Warren's campaign released a list of her "Interfaith Council" yesterday which consisted of something like 13 pastors, 1 rabbi, and 1 sensei. She got a lot of shit for it and her team deleted the tweet. Yikes. 

I am not making this up. This is the sensei.

Sensei Bonnie Treace

95b0be29e1c01cfda954f90b821ef9e5.jpg

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BradInATX

BradInATX 9208

Posted
Posted (edited)
56 minutes ago, troph said:

I’m not doing your homework. Google is super easy and you can find dozens of Rogan racist, homophobic and transphobic statements. He’s a complete piece of shit on social issues. He provides an echo chamber for fragile white men and toxic masculinity that fosters ideas that I’m really not interested in repeating here.

I’m not a Bernie supporter but the fact that Rogan will vote for him doesn’t matter to me. The fact that other fragile white men will vote for him doesn’t matter to me.

Calling out my people and spreading lies and hate on mass listened to pod casts matters to me.

Calling out the most visible leader of the gay and trans rights movement and calling him essentially a corporate shill matters to me.

Rogan needs to be put in his place at every turn and Alphonso Davis and HRC are doing the lord’s work.

That's all fine and good and nobody here is trying to defend Joe Rogan. You're creating a straw man that nobody gives a shit about. Please, rage against Rogan all you want. The issue at hand is whether or not it's an issue for Bernie that Rogan endorsed him.

I haven't seen you in here at all in the past when other candidates were endorsed by people with mixed pasts.

Did you know the New York Times has published multiple homophobic cartoons in the past couple of years? Are you outraged at their endorsement of Liz Warren? Since you've established that candidates must rebuke everyone who has ever said anything offensive to the community, then why hasn't she rebuked said endorsement?

Your gender identification doesn't give you a pass to be a hypocrite.

But please, you guys and girls continue to eat your own tail until we get four more years of Trump. Real productive.

Edited by BradInATX
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6th Street

6th Street 6399

Posted
Posted (edited)
14 minutes ago, Hank Kingsley said:

I don't agree. I think a lot of minorities will peel  away from Biden if he isn't considered the clear front runner. 

 

We'll see. Clearly Sanders does well in all white states like IA and NH, but Biden has unwavering support in South Carolina. 

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Js1

Js1 85335

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Posted
Just now, 6th Street said:

We'll see. Clearly Sanders does well in all white states like IA and NH, but Biden was unwavering support in South Carolina. 

Sanders barely lost Iowa and then destroyed HRC in New Hampshire. Didn’t peel away minorities to his side 4 years ago. 

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bad_teammate

bad_teammate 13195

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If the older black vote is on Biden's side because they want to pick a winner, then he's vulnerable to anyone who beats him in earlier states.

Let's say Liz wins Iowa (Biden 3rd or 4th), 2nd in NH (Biden 3rd or 4th), and 2nd in Nevada (Biden 3rd or 4th). Biden will lose some of that support to Liz by the time SC rolls around. (Or Bernie. Or Pete. Or whoever is beating Biden.) (Ok maybe not Pete even if he's winning.)

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6th Street

6th Street 6399

Posted
Posted
2 hours ago, Hank Kingsley said:

A lot has changed in 4 years. 

I'd also argue Biden's lack of support from young people is a much bigger problem than Bernie's current minority support. 

 

Young people can't be counted on to vote. Old white people live for this shit which is why Florida and Ohio have turned R. 

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troph

troph 24796

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Posted
Rogan needs to be put in his place at every turn and Alphonso Davis and HRC are doing the lord’s work.
Sanders did not endorse Rogan's views. 
And neither do I. 

Agreed.

I came at you because of your bullshit drive by slam of a gay black man who is advocating for gay rights in one of the few parts of the economy that seems to give a shit.
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washparkhorn

washparkhorn 9939

Posted
Posted (edited)
9 minutes ago, troph said:

Sanders did not endorse Rogan's views. 
And neither do I. 

Agreed.

I came at you because of your bullshit drive by slam of a gay black man who is advocating for gay rights in one of the few parts of the economy that seems to give a shit.

Thank you. That was not the intent. Endorsements are not reciprocal. 

 

Edited by washparkhorn
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workswithseed

workswithseed 2104

Posted
Posted
4 hours ago, troph said:

I’m not doing your homework. Google is super easy and you can find dozens of Rogan racist, homophobic and transphobic statements. He’s a complete piece of shit on social issues. He provides an echo chamber for fragile white men and toxic masculinity that fosters ideas that I’m really not interested in repeating here.

I’m not a Bernie supporter but the fact that Rogan will vote for him doesn’t matter to me. The fact that other fragile white men will vote for him doesn’t matter to me.

Calling out my people and spreading lies and hate on mass listened to pod casts matters to me.

Calling out the most visible leader of the gay and trans rights movement and calling him essentially a corporate shill matters to me.

Rogan needs to be put in his place at every turn and Alphonso Davis and HRC are doing the lord’s work.

So you have no evidence, okay.

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bad_teammate

bad_teammate 13195

Posted
Posted
2 minutes ago, workswithseed said:

So you have no evidence, okay.

I linked to some problematic stuff upthread.

A trans person is going to experience those kinds of comments and views differently and we should respect that. Something Rogan says that doesn't strike me as a problem can hit a different person's ear differently if they hear danger in it. I respect that completely.

It doesn't cost us anything.

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workswithseed

workswithseed 2104

Posted
Posted
5 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

I linked to some problematic stuff upthread.

A trans person is going to experience those kinds of comments and views differently and we should respect that. Something Rogan says that doesn't strike me as a problem can hit a different person's ear differently if they hear danger in it. I respect that completely.

It doesn't cost us anything.

I can agree with that.

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troph

troph 24796

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Posted
That's all fine and good and nobody here is trying to defend Joe Rogan. You're creating a straw man that nobody gives a shit about. Please, rage against Rogan all you want. The issue at hand is whether or not it's an issue for Bernie that Rogan endorsed him.
I haven't seen you in here at all in the past when other candidates were endorsed by people with mixed pasts.
Did you know the New York Times has published multiple homophobic cartoons in the past couple of years? Are you outraged at their endorsement of Liz Warren? Since you've established that candidates must rebuke everyone who has ever said anything offensive to the community, then why hasn't she rebuked said endorsement?
Your gender identification doesn't give you a pass to be a hypocrite.
But please, you guys and girls continue to eat your own tail until we get four more years of Trump. Real productive.


Talk about strawmen....
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troph

troph 24796

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No. Bernie Bros embrace victim hood like Trumpkins, but Bernie doesn’t lead them in whining the way th e president does.


I agree with this completely.

And on my end I’ll vote for whomever lines up against trump, I’ll campaign for them and donate money to. Not sure we can say the same thing about the Bernie bros though.
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Hank Scorpio

Hank Scorpio 17729

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I’ve been working on a little theory, that Trump and Bernie and their supporters are just 2 sides of the same coin. They’re really just the same, you see. I’ve been an astute political observer for many years which is why I appear to be the only one who has made this connection. I’m not quite ready to publish my findings, but when I do, it will be a shock to the political world. Stay tuned. 

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washparkhorn

washparkhorn 9939

Posted
Posted
8 minutes ago, Bozo_Casanova said:


No. Bernie Bros embrace victim hood like Trumpkins, but Bernie doesn’t lead them in whining the way th e president does.

Interesting take. Most people don't valorize victimhood, yet some do - for good reason.

I try to treat people as agents of their own future, not objects. People with dignity.

But interesting take nevertheless. Thanks.

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Bama Chick

Bama Chick 28596

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Posted

No. Bernie Bros embrace victim hood like Trumpkins, but Bernie doesn’t lead them in whining the way th e president does.


It’s a certain type of very online white dude.

Despite their politics, they can’t quite overcome their regular white dudeness and the way the world is changing. One side is clawing and grasping to try and force change to stop, hoping that keeps them at the top of the food chain for a little bit longer. The other side has decided to focus on the economics (at the expense of other factors lots of times) and the goal of making a “level playing field” so that while they may not be at the top, they’re hoping to guarantee a shared space at the top so as not to be bypassed.

The beliefs are polar opposite and I feel a thousand times safer with the Bernie side in power but there’s no denying the most vocal supporters of both share a lot of the same insecurities and emotional motivations.

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washparkhorn

washparkhorn 9939

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Posted (edited)

Interesting take. Thanks. There should be a thread on profiling. 

Here is a little paper on the subject. If anyone reads it, let me know. 

http://neweconomicperspectives.org/2020/01/21st-century-machiavellians-1-2-elites-view-the-democratic-party-as-a-containment-vessel-for-popular-discontent.html

Quote

 

The basic structure of concentric circles of the discourse and ideological “space” of a political party or partisan organization, described in the foregoing could apply to almost any political party or for that matter any group with a relatively passionately held set of beliefs against which they believe others are opposed.  Using this schematic diagram of a group, the specific role of “containment vessel for popular discontent” is more likely to be, in the now almost 50 year old neoliberal era, to be slated for a party like the Democratic Party or one of the Parties of the Socialist International, like the British Labour Party, the German SPD, the Australian Labour Party, etc.  

On the other hand, when such center-left parties fail to attract popular discontent and they in agitating outside governing roles or acting in governing roles generate more popular discontent, other political actors, including center-right and far right political actors and movements, can capture popular discontent for their own purposes. Such was the case in 2016 in the United States, in Great Britain through the Brexit process with the emergence of UKIP and then the “Brexit Party”, the Northern League in Italy, the Alternative für Deutschland in Germany, the National Front in France, the BJP in India, etc.  Less successfully or durably, other newer left of center parties like Syriza in Greece, Podemos in Spain, La France Insoumise, or various Green Parties have attempted to represent discontents at one point or another which the traditional parties of the Left have failed to address.  

As a party cannot build physical “containment” walls around itself, it first must establish its core zone of attraction and, in discourse and activity, array around itself, again in discourse, its zones of repulsion and critique if not taboo.  Members, adherents and voters must be drawn to it and repelled from other alternative or opposed organizations and ideologies.  

The specifically “left” or “left-of-center” appeal of an organization like the Democratic Party, even though in reality currently its leadership is center-right, is premised on the idea that it will help “the people”, middle, working class and poor people, gain a better standard of living and better life via the application of reason, empathy with others, and better, more modern government policy.  In the further left wings of these mass parties, the emphasis is more on justice and egalitarianism, with increasingly the oncoming climate catastrophe playing an ever-larger role in at least discourse if not policy proposals and action.  The Democratic Party, as other nominally “left” parties in other countries, is more the party of the Enlightenment than its right-wing opposition, at least in relative terms.  We see this demonstrated for instance, in the rabidly anti-science posture of the current Republican Party versus the relatively pro-science and pro-Enlightenment stance of Democrats.  Being “left” or “left of center” means one, in theory, is applying rationality to improving government policy and institutions, using logical entailment united with ethical commitments to go from “bad” to “good” or “good” to “better”.   This application of rationality can sometimes seem politically bloodless and dispassionate as compared to the irrationalism embraced by the right-wing: it might be argued that only where the left holds a passionate view of social justice and a compelling vision of a better society, often in some version of socialism, can the dispassionate application of rationality be made politically vital.  

As capitalism creates, outside of a few exceptional geographical places and historical times, alienation and impoverishment of a majority of the people, a variety of deepening ecological crises, as well as the oppression of racially or ethnically marginalized groups, a lot of discontent is created or disparities between content and discontent, which can affect the politics of most nations and can be mobilized by ambitious political actors.  Tapping into that discontent or disparities for political reasons can be achieved by a range of techniques by a variety of political actors, but it is certainly the left-of-center’s “game to lose” to try to appeal to those who have economic or systematically-based discontents, including those related to racism and sexism.  

Over the past couple decades, during the height of the neoliberal era, the Parties of the (nominal) Left in the US and elsewhere have attempted to signal sympathy with discontent often via two main techniques: proposing technocratic incrementalist reforms based on “market” principles that court support of parties to the right of them, and playing the left version of identity politics (there are also right-wing versions as well), while abandoning class conflict-based and anti-corporate stances.  The parties of the nominal Left have offered voters and constituents a somewhat Faustian bargain: give up some economic rights in the favor of a feelgood tolerant, nominally anti-racist, anti-misogynistic, anti-homophobic cultural identity that has come recently to be called “woke”.  Some left-of-center versions of identity politics dovetail seamlessly with the neoliberal vision of a meritocratic market-based society, where people no matter their ethnicity or gender can fully draw on their individual resources to succeed or not succeed via the instruments of the market.  

While challenging corporations and the widening gap of wealth and income inequality have become largely taboo to Parties such as the Democratic Party, the British Labour Party, etc., the Establishment “left” has signaled indirectly to the discontented that they are “their” party by standing behind successful individuals from systematically marginalized or oppressed groups, such as Barack Obama or Hillary Clinton, and using their identities as a symbol (mostly in reality a distant echo) of empathy and understanding for the downtrodden and persecuted.  These individuals such as Obama or Clinton that make it to the top levels of the Democratic Party, unlike for instance the more dissident, Bernie Sanders-supporting Keith Ellison or Nina Turner, have politics and policy views that are sympathetic to those of the corporate and donor classes that fund the Party Establishment.  In Great Britain, Chuka Ummunna had a similar function within the British Labour Party to such a degree that he has now abandoned left-tending Corbyn-led Labour for the centrist Liberal Democrats.

As there are principled progressives and leftists who are from marginalized identity groups (in the US, Rashida Tlaib, Ilhan Omar, Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, aforementioned Keith Ellison and Nina Turner), the deployment of identity as wedge against universalistic progressive, anti-corporate ideas is not a necessary feature of recognizing and defending identity-based rights or political advocacy more generally.

Still the neoliberal “Left” playbook is not only identity but also very cautious reforms that do not challenge the fundamental economic and social status quo that also attract some of the discontented to the Democratic and like parties in other countries.  The Affordable Care Act and Clean Power Plan were two such cautious though, by Republicans, vociferously opposed policy initiatives that politically were attempts to establish the credibility of the Democratic Party (under Obama and thereafter) as the party of the economically distressed and environmentally aware.  Each of these plans were compromises from the start and constituted efforts to woo a mostly non-existent moderate Republican over to the Democratic side, rather than solve in the best way possible social problems and win over the broad electorate and the disaffected to the Democratic Party.  That these were opposed by the now utterly reactionary GOP were also used as signs for reinforcement of the sense of righteousness and “left”-ness of the Democratic Party, even as it occupied and occupies a center-right position on policy.

 

 

Edited by washparkhorn
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troph

troph 24796

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Posted
57 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

Class matters.

And race, and gender expression, or at least expression that looks like a straight man, and on and on...

the only person that has ever called me a tranny to my face - and he actually called me a “stupid fucking tranny” was a cisgender, white, straight acting gay man on the day I fired him.  Imagine that. 

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bad_teammate

bad_teammate 13195

Posted
Posted
2 hours ago, troph said:

And race, and gender expression, or at least expression that looks like a straight man, and on and on...

the only person that has ever called me a tranny to my face - and he actually called me a “stupid fucking tranny” was a cisgender, white, straight acting gay man on the day I fired him.  Imagine that. 

Damn, you fired Pete Buttigieg? I bet that's a hell of a story.

But yeah, intersectionality is absolutely a thing.

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Js1

Js1 85335

Posted
Posted (edited)

Thanks for reminding me, DMR, that Bernie doesn’t want to be a Democrat and Warren was a Republican 20ish years ago.  
 

There are actual lifelong Democrats running for the Dem nomination 

Edited by Js1
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GSU&UT

GSU&UT 1798

Posted
Posted
10 minutes ago, Js1 said:

Thanks for reminding me, DMR, that Bernie doesn’t want to be a Democrat and Warren was a Republican 20ish years ago.  
 

There are actual lifelong Democrats running for the Dem nomination 

Lol, very odd back-handed compliment. 

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