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2020 Democratic Nominee

used2b

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Huckleberry
Huckleberry

No it doesn't, this is absurd selfishness on a grand scale. Nobody is getting punished. My wife and I paid off our student loans, and you know what I think about younger people or even those in our ge

henrygandorf
henrygandorf

i’ve really enjoyed the 900 posts from bt explaining how bernie people aren’t aggressive, obsessive, and very-online.  truly a learning experience. 

Bill Clinton
Bill Clinton

3rd or 4th thread but whos counting.  Name recognition and ability to collect money is most important to the Democratic Party. They aren't trying to win 2020, they are trying to rebuild and colle

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FondrenRoad

FondrenRoad 4378

Posted
Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, BradInATX said:

Some day my children are going to ask me how a terrible, stupid person like Donald Trump became president for 8 years and I'm going to link them to this thread.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk
 

No, they'll understand because they'll be watching Kid Rock give the state of the union address followed by a special presentation of Ow My Balls.  There is nothing to suggest that anything is going to break the Fox News stranglehold over conservatives, and a dumb grifter B list celebrity running a fake Christian, fake patriotic, xenophobic campaign is a proven winner.

The idea that hotly contested Democratic primaries are responsible for Trump is as stupid as Trump is. 

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BradInATX

BradInATX 9208

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No, they'll understand because they'll be watching Kid Rock give the state of the union address followed by a special presentation of Ow My Balls.  There is nothing to suggest that anything is going to break the Fox News stranglehold over conservatives, and a dumb grifter B list celebrity running a fake Christian, fake patriotic, xenophobic campaign is a proven winner.
The idea that hotly contested Democratic primaries are responsible for Trump is as stupid as Trump is. 
You're right it's inexcusable to think that with a little less intra-party division that Trump might have lost an election that he won by less than 80,000 votes..

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

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FondrenRoad

FondrenRoad 4378

Posted
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1 minute ago, BradInATX said:

You're right it's inexcusable to think that with a little less intra-party division that Trump might have lost an election that he won by less than 80,000 votes..

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk
 

We lost the election because Hillary failed to campaign in swing states and took Trump for granted.  And also because the GOP knelt before Trump en masse.

The Democratic party is a large tent. There is no solidarity behind a single candidate because we all want different things in addition to getting rid of Trump.  Primaries have never been completely civil affairs.  Vote for your favorite candidate in the primary. Vote for the winner in the general. None of them is as bad as Trump. 

The big difference for the general election this time is that nobody will be indifferent.  Exactly zero people are excited about a President Biden. He is "electable" entirely because anti Trump voters will pull the lever for a generic D.  I just don't see that many of them jumping ship because Warren or Bernie are the candidate, so there is no requirement that the D has to be generic to win.

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BradInATX

BradInATX 9208

Posted
Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, FondrenRoad said:

We lost the election because Hillary failed to campaign in swing states and took Trump for granted.  And also because the GOP knelt before Trump en masse.

The Democratic party is a large tent. There is no solidarity behind a single candidate because we all want different things in addition to getting rid of Trump.  Primaries have never been completely civil affairs.  Vote for your favorite candidate in the primary. Vote for the winner in the general. None of them is as bad as Trump. 

The big difference for the general election this time is that nobody will be indifferent.  Exactly zero people are excited about a President Biden. He is "electable" entirely because anti Trump voters will pull the lever for a generic D.  I just don't see that many of them jumping ship because Warren or Bernie are the candidate, so there is no requirement that the D has to be generic to win.

This is not your standard Democratic primary bickering. This is people's entire ego and id wrapped up in their candidates to the point where just about every single person who is extremely invested in a candidate is playing dirty pool. Feigning outrage about things that nobody in their right mind should be outraged about. Constant disingenuity and double standards and intellectual dishonesty.

It's awful. As if Trump and his supporters constantly creating straw men and ad hominems for us to deal with isn't enough, now we're creating them for each other. It's stupid and self-defeating. There are billionaires in the race trying to buy themselves the presidency and we have morons just OUTRAGED that Bernie didn't burn an effigy of Joe freaking Rogan fast enough when Rogan said he would vote for him. The Buttigieg thread is an entire thread devoted to Bernie supporters throwing shade at him about things that don't matter whatsoever. The Warren/Bernie spat is another perfect example of things that shouldn't and don't matter that people are making relevant, because they're stupid and self-defeating. 

It's awful.

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bad_teammate

bad_teammate 13195

Posted
Posted
1 minute ago, BradInATX said:

This is not your standard Democratic primary bickering. This is people's entire ego and id wrapped up in their candidates to the point where just about every single person who is extremely invested in a candidate is playing dirty pool. Feigning outrage about things that nobody in their right mind should be outraged about. Constant disingenuity and double standards and intellectual dishonesty.

Have you ever participated in a contested Democratic primary?

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atomheartbevo

atomheartbevo 89666

Posted
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40 minutes ago, longhornmatt said:

So true.  As a (probably unwelcome) ex-Republican interloper into Democratic politics, I must say ... holy fucking shit you people eat your own for the tiniest and stupidest of reasons.  

There’s a shitload of us ex-Republicans in here.   Helps that Trump is aggy personified.  

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tantric superman

tantric superman 4667

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3 hours ago, FondrenRoad said:

I just don't see that many of them jumping ship because Warren or Bernie are the candidate, so there is no requirement that the D has to be generic to win.

The jumping ship argument is the wrong argument.    The question is who will be the most likely to motivate or demotivate people to come and vote who were milktoasty last time.  Who will get minorities fired up?  Who will guarantee girls are all going to vote Dem? 

Biden is going to demotivate me, but I live in Texas, so why waste time on me?  He might motivate some dork from Ohio or Wisconsin, however. 

I think Bernie motivates the most people, and that includes a huge swath of folks who are going to come to vote against him.

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tantric superman

tantric superman 4667

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Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, cmontexas said:

Id rather go down in flames with Bernie standing for what we believe in than barely lose with Biden or Bloomberg futilely trying to pander to Trump voters

Bernie doesn't stand for what I believe in.  He stands for a lot of what I believe in, maybe even most, but he differs from me on some fundamental stuff.  

So your idea that he's going to be standing for what "we" believe I think belies the fact that there are lots of folks wanting to vote Dem who align a bit more with the moderates.

Similarly, I don't see Biden or Bloomberg embracing racism or denial of science to pander to Trump voters -- in fact I don't see any Dem doing anything other than, at worst, patronizing Trump true believers.

Now trying to convince the folks who sort of regret their Trump votes, however few there are?  I see all the Dems trying to convince them that they are correct in regretting their votes.

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Skyline

Skyline 325

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43 minutes ago, tantric superman said:

I think Bernie motivates the most people, and that includes a huge swath of folks who are going to come to vote against him.

I'll vote for the Dem candidate regardless, but Bernie seems to hold that excitement factor that nobody else has grasped. As for the people voting strictly against Bernie, it's safe to say the vast majority of them would've done that for any Dem candidate. Or better yet, they would find some reason to vote for DJT anyway. 

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tantric superman

tantric superman 4667

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2 minutes ago, Skyline said:

I'll vote for the Dem candidate regardless, but Bernie seems to hold that excitement factor that nobody else has grasped. As for the people voting strictly against Bernie, it's safe to say the vast majority of them would've done that for any Dem candidate. Or better yet, they would find some reason to vote for DJT anyway. 

Again, yes, if they walk into the voting booth, they will vote against any Dem.  The question is, do you get voters in the key states to tell themselves they don't give a damn who wins, so why bother?

Totally agree that Bern brings the ruckus more than any other candidate.  I think we will see over the next few weeks if any of the other candidates (Klob, Butt, horrid voice lady) has a possible high upside if they get rolling.

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FondrenRoad

FondrenRoad 4378

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2 hours ago, tantric superman said:

The jumping ship argument is the wrong argument.    The question is who will be the most likely to motivate or demotivate people to come and vote who were milktoasty last time.  Who will get minorities fired up?  Who will guarantee girls are all going to vote Dem? 

Biden is going to demotivate me, but I live in Texas, so why waste time on me?  He might motivate some dork from Ohio or Wisconsin, however. 

I think Bernie motivates the most people, and that includes a huge swath of folks who are going to come to vote against him.

The actual answer to all those questions is Trump. People will be motivated to vote against Trump. He is the President this time, you know.  There is no "Hillary is going to win anyway so I don't need to vote" argument.  And that was really the nail in her coffin. The idea that Trump was so shitty that there was no way he could possibly win so you didn't need to even vote.  Much is made of her being a bad candidate, and she was, but a lot of the indifference came from the fact that Trump was such a terrible candidate that it made her win a foregone conclusion.  This time around, all the folks that believed that are going to show up.

There is also no "Both Hillary and Trump suck so I don't care" argument either, which was always a lie and a Trump vote anyway so it was never relevant. The GOP is certainly trying to lay that groundwork again for Biden now, but it won't sway anyone in a new way. 

Anyone that was hardcore Bernie and didn't vote in the general fell into that "foregone conclusion" trap in 2016.  That won't happen again. Pretty much everyone who votes in the Dem primary will pull the lever for whoever wins the Dem nomination.

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washparkhorn

washparkhorn 9939

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2 hours ago, tantric superman said:

Again, yes, if they walk into the voting booth, they will vote against any Dem.  The question is, do you get voters in the key states to tell themselves they don't give a damn who wins, so why bother?

Totally agree that Bern brings the ruckus more than any other candidate.  I think we will see over the next few weeks if any of the other candidates (Klob, Butt, horrid voice lady) has a possible high upside if they get rolling.

The nomination race in 2008 was preordained, but somehow the progressive outworked her. There was as much or more animosity between Hillary voters and the progressive candidate back then, but the Party did coalesce around the Progressive and - other than the PUMAs (who drive much of the reactionary anti-progressive rhetoric today) - the Progressive won the General..

And as much as I believe Sanders will push legislation to enact significant change, he will be met by the Establishment Congress and Trumpers who will push back. We will see change - but not radical. It may be incremental. But you will never get change by only asking for small tweaks. That is poor negotiating. It's negotiating against one's interests. And for some, that is an acceptable outcome. For most, that do-nothing attitude by Congress doesn't fly anymore. It's lip service and people see through the crocodile tears, as Representatives and Senators just serve to enrich themselves.

Change is needed. Reform is needed. We are killing the capitalist engine in this country by devastating the working class and hollowing out the middle class. When the cycle is broken completely - when we lose the working and middle classes - it may be difficult to restart it. If it can't be restarted, the privileged managerial class will feel immediate hurt. 

Sanders and progressive merely think socialism for the rich and austerity for everyone else is the wrong policy prescription. We should try watering the roots rather than the leaves - as we have done since the 70's.

As the economy is stalling again, we need to learn the lessons of the GFC of 2008 and do the right thing this time. This should not be a radical idea to anyone. 

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Aqua Buddha

Aqua Buddha 14596

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15 hours ago, longhornmatt said:

So true.  As a (probably unwelcome) ex-Republican interloper into Democratic politics, I must say ... holy fucking shit you people eat your own for the tiniest and stupidest of reasons.  

It’s actually amazing how nearly universally the Democratic candidates and voting base right now have accepted some really radical ideas for policy changes on a whole number of topics.  If anything, there should be a whole lot more disagreement on substantive policy than there actually is if everyone were voting their self interest.  But there’s not, at least among the rank and file.  And yet somehow, despite this,  people still find a thousand different reasons to be at each other’s throats.  

It’s like an entire party full of Larry David’s Curb character turning their own idiosyncratic social annoyances into reasons to go nuclear and start blood feuds with each other.  Donald Trump is basically proclaiming himself God Emperor before our eyes, and y’all are giving each other purity tests and opening spite stores because you didn’t like how someone made a scone.

The Democratic candidate for president could adopt 100% of the Green New Deal and Green Party people would still vote for Jill Stein or some shit.

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Bruh Man

Bruh Man 3160

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Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

The fight between the establishment and the left wing of this party gets turned up to 11 after tonight.

It's going to be brutal.

Strap in.

The thing is there is a candidate of the left wing that doesn't jump off the deep end in Elizabeth Warren - a team player, a DEMOCRAT, a uniter, a doer....but these idiots in the establishment don't even want her. Well, now they'll be faced with dealing with Bernie. Good luck. I expect Trump to have 2 billion dollars to spend if Bernie is the nominee. 

Edited by Bruh Man
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washparkhorn

washparkhorn 9939

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5 minutes ago, longhornmatt said:

On the other hand, with Bernie they can point to him doing actual crazy communist things for decades.  If they can swift boat Kerry, they can, and will, do 1,000 times worse to Bernie with his past.  

Sanders is not a communist. Sanders is not a Marxist. 

Sanders, like FDR, JFK, and LBJ, is a social democrat. 

Social Democrat is a term with meaning. Social Democrats believe democracy can create condition where capitalism work will better for all, rather than just a few. 

FDR and Sanders are not communists. Words have meaning. The conflation of social democrat with socialism, marxism and communism is a dog whistle. 

 

 

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troph

troph 24798

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Posted
The thing is there is a candidate of the left wing that doesn't jump off the deep end in Elizabeth Warren - a team player, a DEMOCRAT, a uniter, a doer....but these idiots in the establishment don't even want her. Well, now they'll be faced with dealing with Bernie. Good luck. I expect Trump to have 2 billion dollars to spend if Bernie is the nominee. 


A lot of us are angry, but most voters are simply exhausted from Trump. They will stay with Trump if they fear socialism. I’m happy to campaign for and vote for Bernie. I just think the exhausted normies would rather be exhausted than afraid and Bernie will scare them because the drum beat about socialism will not be muted, ever in a race against Trump. Trump will flippantly banter about socialism, Bernie will respond as he does which will seem like an angry old man and Trump will point at him and say “see, socialism. He hates America.” And he will win.

I think that’s horse crap but I think it’s what will happen.
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David Dennison

David Dennison 18860

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1 minute ago, washparkhorn said:

Sanders is not a communist. Sanders is not a Marxist. 

Sanders, like FDR, JFK, and LBJ, is a social democrat. 

Social Democrat is a term with meaning. Social Democrats believe democracy can create condition where capitalism work will better for all, rather than just a few. 

FDR and Sanders are not communists. Words have meaning. The conflation of social democrat with socialism, marxism and communism is a dog whistle. 

It doesn't really matter. Bernie Sanders has been labeled by both parties as a socialist. That's not going to change this campaign season.

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troph

troph 24798

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Posted
Sanders is not a communist. Sanders is not a Marxist. 

Sanders, like FDR, JFK, and LBJ, is a social democrat. 

Social Democrat is a term with meaning. Social Democrats believe democracy can create condition where capitalism work will better for all, rather than just a few. 

FDR and Sanders are not communists. Words have meaning. The conflation of social democrat with socialism, marxism and communism is a dog whistle. 

 

 

 

But he’s not a social democrat. He’s an independent and has not embraced the party in a way that can help him defeat those claims of socialism. He can’t claim FDR and LBJ when he’s not even a part of the party they belonged to.

 

You can argue all you want. I know you and bt are always right about this stuff, but millions of us - a lot of us Warren supporters - see it, we say it, and we are told by guys like you we are just simply wrong.

 

I’m afraid Trump will wipe the floor with Sanders and the way he will attack Trump.

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Zonahorn

Zonahorn 8079

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1 minute ago, longhornmatt said:

Bernie Sanders is not like JFK or LBJ, or even like FDR.  And, yes, he actually was a supporter of Marxist parties in the 80s.  He’s just smart enough to rebrand himself with better sounding words now.

Then again, maybe we don’t understand.  A majority of people, when asked if they would like Medicare for All (without defining what M4A specifically means or mentioning any of the tradeoffs that come with it), said they were for it.  Ergo, there is no downside risk to nominating a guy who honeymooned in the Soviet Union during the Cold War and wants to fundamentally transform the American economy.  He’s just like JFK.

This is in no way influenced by bias.

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washparkhorn

washparkhorn 9939

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10 minutes ago, Aqua Buddha said:

We have Democrats wanting to take a flyer on this election. 

Taking a flyer is pretending a Hilary-type nominee can beat Tump. Didn't work in 2016. Why would it work today?

Seriously - tell me why a Third Way Democrat in 2020 will beat Trump when a Third Way Democrat lost to him in 2016?

That appears to be the definition of insanity, especially as Third Way candidates have become more and despised since 2009.

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washparkhorn

washparkhorn 9939

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7 minutes ago, longhornmatt said:

Bernie Sanders is not like JFK or LBJ, or even like FDR.  And, yes, he actually was a supporter of Marxist parties in the 80s.  He’s just smart enough to rebrand himself with better sounding words now.

Then again, maybe we don’t understand.  A majority of people, when asked if they would like Medicare for All (without defining what M4A specifically means or mentioning any of the tradeoffs that come with it), said they were for it.  Ergo, there is no downside risk to nominating a guy who honeymooned in the Soviet Union during the Cold War and wants to fundamentally transform the American economy.  He’s just like JFK.

Well - in FACT - Sanders is like FDR. Sanders is campaigning on FDR's Second Bill of Rights. 

Under your logic, anyone supporting the alliance with the Soviet Union in WWII is a communist. Facts. 

The 1950's are over. The Red Scare was morally bankrupt then - and certainly is now. 

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