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Let's talk about the upcoming Mexican election

bolverk

By bolverk
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GHOSTUSER

GHOSTUSER 361

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Hopefully the Mexican people pick someone good who is not a corrupt charlatan. México should be a wealthy country like the US and Canada. It has every natural advantage you can think of. It’s been fucked by the culture of corruption.

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Brisketexan

Brisketexan 105154

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They are.  Mexico is about to elect a far left anti-Trump president.  It’s going to suck.

This.

Proving that no matter which end of the spectrum you fall on, electing a president based on a platform of “fuck you! And suck it, bitches!” is not the best idea.
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HOOK'EMHOOAH

HOOK'EMHOOAH 1610

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I'm of the opinion that an economically strong and secure Mexico is good for everyone. Instead of treating a neighbor and trade partner like shit, working together with them is in everyone's best interest. They may not be part of NATO, but having some sort of agreement that is mutually beneficial would he far superior to the subjugation that is currently taking place of any individual with a Hispanic or Latino heritage.

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TwiceHorn

TwiceHorn 31495

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3 hours ago, RPM said:

The choices are caca taco, caca tostado and caca enchilada.

Siii senor.  Que lastima.

I'd love to fix Mexico, but the problems are so deep, so wide, and so old, I'm not sure anyone can.  Much less on a decennial timeframe.  I think our drug policy has been more harmful to Mexico than any other single thing.

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RDCanecutter

RDCanecutter 26452

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I take it as a good sign that folks are thinking of whole-sale firing of the PRI, PAN, and PRD. Those politicians have morphed into a vampire class. (RD, don't we have politicians in the US who are vampires too? Yes. We have annoying vampire bats. Mexico has a hundred Count Draculas.)

If the French are always dreaming of the next Napoleon, Mexicans dream of the next Lazaro Cardenas. They are right to. Cardenas was the last full-grown man to be president in North America, with the exception of Eisenhower. Will AMLO be Cardenas III? (gotta leap-frog the son, same as with Napoleon) Who knows. Zedillo Part Two would be above average.

Could the bribe culture be done away with? I wouldn't bet on it. Maybe it could be rolled back to an earlier "I realize I should drive slower, officer, please have a drink after work on me" level, instead of this "let's pretend we are Spanish conquistadors and take every single thing" wild corruption.

Cartels controlling the outlying states. I don't see this as a drug thing. Drugs do fund it marvelously. I see it as the Mexican State extending just as far as it can (almost) control things. On the fringes, bandits always spring up. If the Mexican state had been a little stronger, they don't need gringos to settle Tejas, and maybe Central America stays in the fold. If they'd been weaker, the northern stretch of border states and Yucatan are doing something else. You do something to knock the profit out of drugs, in 2018 it weakens the anti-state forces. Probably weakens the state as well, but that's another ramble.

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FondrenRoad

FondrenRoad 4378

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11 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

I have a hard time believing it's going to make a shit.  The cartels run Mexico for all practical purposes.  Which is why you have a cavalcade of incompetents running for Presidente.

It is kind of weird that we spent over a century fucking with the internal politics of all our Latin American neighbors, and yet we'll just let shit go unchecked when it comes to cartels and gangs.  Meanwhile, we'll fly halfway across the world to fight terrorist opium farmers.

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RDCanecutter

RDCanecutter 26452

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22 minutes ago, FondrenRoad said:

It is kind of weird that we spent over a century fucking with the internal politics of all our Latin American neighbors, and yet we'll just let shit go unchecked when it comes to cartels and gangs.  Meanwhile, we'll fly halfway across the world to fight terrorist opium farmers.

In the old days, the PRI controlled the cartels, the same way they controlled who got to shine shoes or who got the contract for the big sculpture in the fountain.

Nowadays, the PRI doesn't control them, but the cartels stop their worst offenses right at our border. They have the numbers and ruthlessness to turn any US town into old Juarez, but they don't.

Hmm.

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Huckleberry

Huckleberry 32997

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26 minutes ago, OatmealRaisinCookie said:

John Oliver is a complete beating to me usually, but this one was pretty good and funny. I guess we can all get behind making fun of Mexico and finding it funny.

"I usually don't like Mr. Political Comedian whose politics I disagree with, but on this topic I agreed with him so I found him entertaining."

Hot take.

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FondrenRoad

FondrenRoad 4378

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Posted (edited)
28 minutes ago, RDCanecutter said:

In the old days, the PRI controlled the cartels, the same way they controlled who got to shine shoes or who got the contract for the big sculpture in the fountain.

Nowadays, the PRI doesn't control them, but the cartels stop their worst offenses right at our border. They have the numbers and ruthlessness to turn any US town into old Juarez, but they don't.

Hmm.

Cartels are probably responsible for more deaths on US soil than Islamic terrorists even with 911 skewing the numbers. Still, I agree. They try to keep random violence here to a minimum. 

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TwiceHorn

TwiceHorn 31495

Posted
Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, FondrenRoad said:

It is kind of weird that we spent over a century fucking with the internal politics of all our Latin American neighbors, and yet we'll just let shit go unchecked when it comes to cartels and gangs.  Meanwhile, we'll fly halfway across the world to fight terrorist opium farmers.

Commies n terrorists.  Even the paranoid have enemies!  And of course the cartels and the drug war provide their own boogeyman and a whole complex devoted to fighting it that is more destructive than the military-industrial complex ever was.

Edited by TwiceHorn
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Newdoc

Newdoc 3448

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Posted
16 hours ago, bolverk said:

Here's everything you need to know about it:

So Oliver’s banter is your primer for discussion on the politics board? Any other sources? And Fox News, MSNBC and CNN don’t count either.

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bolverk

bolverk 29684

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16 minutes ago, Newdoc said:

So Oliver’s banter is your primer for discussion on the politics board? Any other sources? And Fox News, MSNBC and CNN don’t count either.

Lighten up, Francis. You need to take your sarcasm meter into the shop if you think I was serious about:

Quote

Here's everything you need to know about it:

We can have some fun around here on occasion. Not every thread need be Thunderdome.

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Pods

Pods 7585

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2 hours ago, RDCanecutter said:

It has the feel of a trench-line truce.

The last thing they want to do is piss us off enough to actually intervene. They can hold off and bribe the Mexican authorities. It gets a lot trickier when getting the bad guys actually become a priority for the US. As long as they keep the violence internal, we're going to sit on our side of the border and ignore it. 

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sheeeit

sheeeit 129

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I have thought about the solution to the mexican drug problem a bunch.  Like all things, there are no easy answers.  But I think there are only 2 choices.

1) The easiest and least violent way is to legalize most drugs that come in from mexico.  Weed, cocaine, meth, heroin etc.  I realize that this is highly unlikely to happen, but we have made progress on weed.  I have no idea what it would look like but I envision stores similar to liquor stores that sell narcotics.  Let US companies manufacture the narcotics and let the FFA regulate the quality and then let them sell to retailers that are also well regulated.  Heck, I would even let mexico supply much of the drugs if they can compete.  have them sell to licensed dealers here in the us.  Likely a pipe dream but it would eliminate a ton of the profits for the cartels. 

2) Negotiate with mexico (tell them basically) that the us military is coming in.  The drug trade is just too lucrative and the state and local police are in a horrible spot.  Take money from the cartels or get killed and have your family killed.  That scenario is never, ever, going to eliminate the problem.  The cartels make so much money that they have arsenals of weapons, more than the local police.  So, imo, an outside group has to intervene.  It would be unbelievably brutal in the short term.  The policy would have to be scorched earth.  Assaults on cartel locations.  Total burning of fields and plants and equipment.  An eradication of the trade.  Then, help mexico to police the areas so that it never grows so big and out of hand again.  In a large scale operation, you essentially eliminate all of the known bad guys and wipe out all of their supply.  Make it very, very difficult for someone to come in and start from scratch.

Obviously, solution 1 is the best avenue.  Maybe some combination of both.  But I can not blame the local police in many of these mexican communities for not stopping the problem.

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Brisketexan

Brisketexan 105154

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5 minutes ago, sheeeit said:

But I can not blame the local police in many of these mexican communities for not stopping the problem.

Yep.  I mean, this is a shitty sales pitch:

"Hey, mexican dude working for gov't pay -- why don't you go put yourself and your whole family at risk for a gruesome death, in order to maybe, possibly, but not probably, infinitesimally reduce the ability of some douchebag to score some coke next Saturday at the club in some American city 1000 miles away.  Waddaya say, we got a deal?"

Frankly, I doubt the intelligence and sanity of any Mexican cop who DOESN'T tell us to go fuck ourselves.  It's a stupid, unwinnable "war" -- and it's over.  Drugs won.

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David Dennison

David Dennison 18922

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26 minutes ago, sheeeit said:

I have thought about the solution to the mexican drug problem a bunch.  Like all things, there are no easy answers.  But I think there are only 2 choices.

1) The easiest and least violent way is to legalize most drugs that come in from mexico.  Weed, cocaine, meth, heroin etc.  I realize that this is highly unlikely to happen, but we have made progress on weed.  I have no idea what it would look like but I envision stores similar to liquor stores that sell narcotics.  Let US companies manufacture the narcotics and let the FFA regulate the quality and then let them sell to retailers that are also well regulated.  Heck, I would even let mexico supply much of the drugs if they can compete.  have them sell to licensed dealers here in the us.  Likely a pipe dream but it would eliminate a ton of the profits for the cartels. 

2) Negotiate with mexico (tell them basically) that the us military is coming in.  The drug trade is just too lucrative and the state and local police are in a horrible spot.  Take money from the cartels or get killed and have your family killed.  That scenario is never, ever, going to eliminate the problem.  The cartels make so much money that they have arsenals of weapons, more than the local police.  So, imo, an outside group has to intervene.  It would be unbelievably brutal in the short term.  The policy would have to be scorched earth.  Assaults on cartel locations.  Total burning of fields and plants and equipment.  An eradication of the trade.  Then, help mexico to police the areas so that it never grows so big and out of hand again.  In a large scale operation, you essentially eliminate all of the known bad guys and wipe out all of their supply.  Make it very, very difficult for someone to come in and start from scratch.

Obviously, solution 1 is the best avenue.  Maybe some combination of both.  But I can not blame the local police in many of these mexican communities for not stopping the problem.

Yes. Let's invade Mexico. That is really, really, really smart.

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Js1

Js1 85407

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2 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

Yes. Let's invade Mexico. That is really, really, really smart.

Oh so this is what Mike Pence meant by "America respects Latin American sovereignty."

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RDCanecutter

RDCanecutter 26452

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29 minutes ago, sheeeit said:

2) Negotiate with mexico (tell them basically) that the us military is coming in.  The drug trade is just too lucrative and the state and local police are in a horrible spot.  Take money from the cartels or get killed and have your family killed.  That scenario is never, ever, going to eliminate the problem.  The cartels make so much money that they have arsenals of weapons, more than the local police.  So, imo, an outside group has to intervene.  It would be unbelievably brutal in the short term.  The policy would have to be scorched earth.  Assaults on cartel locations.  Total burning of fields and plants and equipment.  An eradication of the trade.  Then, help mexico to police the areas so that it never grows so big and out of hand again.  In a large scale operation, you essentially eliminate all of the known bad guys and wipe out all of their supply.  Make it very, very difficult for someone to come in and start from scratch.

Two points:

1. The religion of Mexico is Mexico, and the central tenet of that religion is that the gringo is clever, fierce, and always looking to rip away more territory. (We are clever and fierce, I think the extra territory thing passed.) They would rather have a disease than have us help cure it. They don't like cartels, but if you want to make every cartel into Robin Hood and the Merry Men, let the US help hunt them down.

2. The brute force attacks on cartel locations are Standard Operating Procedure for the Mexican military. If you can read between the lines, you can see that many of their "battles" are them jumping a cartel ranch, shoot the lookouts, the rest try to surrender, and in proper Third World form, La Marina kill the rest and pose them with weapons. There are almost never any wounded survivors.

2B. Places where they grow the pot for the cartels are loyal to them. The Mexican government can start local revolutions easier than they can bring these places back into the fold. Because who owes anything to some Mexico City politician who is just stealing? The cartel bosses pay good money, and at Christmas time they bring in trucks full of toys.

 

Whatever they do, Mexico has to be seen as solving things themselves. Too much wounded pride for it to be otherwise.

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sheeeit

sheeeit 129

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7 minutes ago, RDCanecutter said:

Two points:

1. The religion of Mexico is Mexico, and the central tenet of that religion is that the gringo is clever, fierce, and always looking to rip away more territory. (We are clever and fierce, I think the extra territory thing passed.) They would rather have a disease than have us help cure it. They don't like cartels, but if you want to make every cartel into Robin Hood and the Merry Men, let the US help hunt them down.

2. The brute force attacks on cartel locations are Standard Operating Procedure for the Mexican military. If you can read between the lines, you can see that many of their "battles" are them jumping a cartel ranch, shoot the lookouts, the rest try to surrender, and in proper Third World form, La Marina kill the rest and pose them with weapons. There are almost never any wounded survivors.

2B. Places where they grow the pot for the cartels are loyal to them. The Mexican government can start local revolutions easier than they can bring these places back into the fold. Because who owes anything to some Mexico City politician who is just stealing? The cartel bosses pay good money, and at Christmas time they bring in trucks full of toys.

 

Whatever they do, Mexico has to be seen as solving things themselves. Too much wounded pride for it to be otherwise.

I dont disagree.  It has to be to the point that the mexican citizens really want change and the elected folks realize they cant do it themselves.  Might never get to that point.

But, I also think there are some prudent folks in mexico that really care about the future of their country.  I do not think they would be afraid to swallow their pride if they thought help from the US could seriously help the problem.  It could be spun a lot of different ways.  Maybe a joint military operation with a mexican figure head at the top.  The mexicans can spin it that it is the us and their appetite for drugs that is causing the violence and, therefore, it is only right that the americans help pay for and die for the solution.  

This approach would clearly be a last option.  Legalizing would hurt the cartels the most.

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Brisketexan

Brisketexan 105154

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The problem is that the "drug war" isn't a Mexican problem.  It's an AMERICAN problem (demand, and legal prohibition of that demand) that ends up being fought on Mexican soil.

We are the fat person standing outside of KFC and demanding that it stop serving us buckets of chicken, and barricading the doors shut....all while we send our kid around back to buy some on the sly from one of the employees at 3X the menu price....and his fellow employees are fighting for the chance to profit from our hypocrisy, even stabbing each other in the kitchen for the chance to control the endless stream of Original Recipe going out the back door, and the ridiculous profits that come with it.

We're gonna eat the damned chicken.  Just open the doors, order off the menu, and be done with it.

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Pescado_Rojo

Pescado_Rojo 19423

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6 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

The problem is that the "drug war" isn't a Mexican problem.  It's an AMERICAN problem (demand, and legal prohibition of that demand) that ends up being fought on Mexican soil.

We are the fat person standing outside of KFC and demanding that it stop serving us buckets of chicken, and barricading the doors shut....all while we send our kid around back to buy some on the sly from one of the employees at 3X the menu price....and his fellow employees are fighting for the chance to profit from our hypocrisy, even stabbing each other in the kitchen for the chance to control the endless stream of Original Recipe going out the back door, and the ridiculous profits that come with it.

We're gonna eat the damned chicken.  Just open the doors, order off the menu, and be done with it.

I assume you just mistyped cripsy. 

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sheeeit

sheeeit 129

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I have not been to a kfc in years, may have to make a trip.

Also, I can not imagine the shitstorm that would rain down on the first politician that espouses legalizing meth and heroin.  That is the biggest reason why it wont happen.  Maybe an idiot like trump would do it because he just doesnt care about the fall out.

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MaybeACoordinator

MaybeACoordinator 8349

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3 hours ago, Pods said:

The last thing they want to do is piss us off enough to actually intervene. They can hold off and bribe the Mexican authorities. It gets a lot trickier when getting the bad guys actually become a priority for the US. As long as they keep the violence internal, we're going to sit on our side of the border and ignore it. 

Sort of tin foil hat territory, but I firmly believe that powerful pockets are getting lined in America, and not just Sheriff Chuy in the Hidalgo County.

 

I alway thought it strange that somehow the Taliban was able to stamp out opium poppies in Afghanistan and then we go in there, and whoa, it's just too hard for the American military to stop this shit. 

Somebody gettin' paid. 

Would it shock any of you if the likes of Erik Prince got a cut of this shit? I am not saying he has, or does, but if that came to light, it would not surprise me in the least. That dude has a tiny shard of obsidian where most of us have a soul. 

 

 

 

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Brisketexan

Brisketexan 105154

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4 minutes ago, bolverk said:

Y'all can have your ditchweed KFC. If I'm getting mine, I'm going for the primo stuff: El Pollo Rico.

I just used KFC as an example because the buckets make a good visual.

If fried yardbird becomes contraband, I'm getting my boy Popeye to hook us up GOOD.

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RDCanecutter

RDCanecutter 26452

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1 hour ago, longhorndude said:

I’m more a Los Pollos Hermanos man myself. That’s where you get the really good shit.

Talk about really good shit-- it is surprisingly hard to find fried chicken way down in Mexico. I thought I had a source, the deli in the Ley supermarket, but they let me down.

And by "let me down", I mean I spent days in a hammock blowing chunks out my ass while watching the sun go around the sky like a stop-motion art-film.

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