What's happening in the Methodist Church?

[jdhorn92 1549]

Mods can delete  if there is already a thread or move to CR.

Methodist Churches are disaffiliating in large numbers due to actions at the General Conference level over human sexuality and same sex marriage.  As a Methodist (convert from Catholic), I hate to see this division.  The main issue appears to be the move toward allowing openly Gay ordained clergy and the acknowledgement of same sex marriage.

As a Christian, I am big tent guy and don't have a problem with it (I voted as such in our recent Board of Stewards meeting), though I am a bit agnostic on the whole matter in total. Our BOS voted to not disaffiliate by the Dec deadline and wait and see how the General Conference goes next year.  I love our Church and will stay either way honestly, but I hate seeing social issues bleed over in to the congregation, though I suppose this is the world we live in now.

https://www.christianitytoday.com/news/2023/january/umc-churches-leave-global-methodist-denomination-schism.html

 

[Brisketexan 105144]

3 minutes ago, jdhorn92 said:

Mods can delete  if there is already a thread or move to CR.

Methodist Churches are disaffiliating in large numbers due to actions at the General Conference level over human sexuality and same sex marriage.  As a Methodist (convert from Catholic), I hate to see this division.  The main issue appears to be the move toward allowing openly Gay ordained clergy and the acknowledgement of same sex marriage.

As a Christian, I am big tent guy and don't have a problem with it (I voted as such in our recent Board of Stewards meeting), though I am a bit agnostic on the whole matter in total. Our BOS voted to not disaffiliate by the Dec deadline and wait and see how the General Conference goes next year.  I love our Church and will stay either way honestly, but I hate seeing social issues bleed over in to the congregation, though I suppose this is the world we live in now.

https://www.christianitytoday.com/news/2023/january/umc-churches-leave-global-methodist-denomination-schism.html

 

American Christian denominations in the past split over schisms as to:

Slavery (how we ended up with northern and southern versions of the same denomination)

The ordination of women (liberal vs. conservative congregations)

And now thuh gayz (liberal vs. conservative congregations)

 

Same as it ever was.  Crappy side of history is consistent.

[atomheartbevo 89674]

18 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Same as it ever was.  Crappy side of history is consistent.

Southern Baptists shed half-a-million last year.  Maybe they can swap with the Methodists that are splitting.  Or maybe they'll do what a bunch of our friends did and move to the Presbyterians.

[Brisketexan 105144]

2 minutes ago, atomheartbevo said:

Southern Baptists shed half-a-million last year.  Maybe they can swap with the Methodists that are splitting.  Or maybe they'll do what a bunch of our friends did and move to the Presbyterians.

Note that the Presbyterians had their own split over the slavery and women issues back in the day....and have likewise experienced a split over thuh gayz in recent years (First Pres in San Antonio is no longer affiliated with the PCUSA; it's affiliated with "ECO - a Covenant Order of Evangelical Presbyterians" (they chose that name over "we think gayz are icky").  That's the conservative offshoot -- the Presbyterians aren't immune).  That said, the PCUSA has definitely staked out the progressive position.  But I don't think it does anyone much good.  "Christianity" in America has become a brand that is totally tied to everything bad about modern conservative thought, and the idea of "progressive Christians" just can't fit into people's heads.

[Samson's Wig 3192]

I don't know how anyone can keep this straight.

[Fondren & Main 6718]

Only Catholics and Orthodox can claim apostolic succession.  None of the other denominations have a solid foundation and crumble in the end.

[F250 28777]

5 minutes ago, Fondren & Main said:

Only Catholics and Orthodox can claim apostolic succession.  None of the other denominations have a solid foundation and crumble in the end.

[atomheartbevo 89674]

24 minutes ago, Samson's Wig said:

I don't know how anyone can keep this straight.

[Blotto 23517]

Why is god suddenly so wishy  washy on his LBGQT stance these days. I mean presumably all these Christians worship the same god, but why is his word different from sect to sect? Is he just bored and fucking with some of these dorks? I havent spent a lot of time in church since I was 12 when I told my mom I was done with the bullshit, but I dont remember God changing his mind so much. I can't recall which flavor of Presbyterianism I was subjected to, but they weren't particularly fond of the gays. In fact, our youth minister getting caught in a car with another man by the cops in our city park caused quite the kerfuffle in the congregation. He got booted, people got all pissy. Fine with me, the stupidity of it all was what allowed me to tell my mom the entire thing was bullshit, and she kind of agreed. She switched to a different church, and I just stopped going. 

Edited May 12, 2023 by Blotto

[Patricio Swayze 17058]

Christianity: we are gonna tell everyone it’s about love, but it’s really about hate.

Let’s get deacon dickhead in here to tell us about how he loves the gays but he is happy his church is making sure they know their place.

[Nicole44 22060]

I mentioned this in the CR but it’s also a lot of the 70-90 year olds. They are the ones that still write checks and so on and they hate change. They also fear anything that resembles change. They were brought into church on a lot of fire and brimstone type shit. I have been to several places trying to find one and you have these dying churches or these mega church type of deals and they don’t appeal to me. Posters were kind enough to PM with suggestions. So that was cool. I especially want to feel connected right now after losing my uncle Sunday night suddenly—a surrogate father to my brother and I for 18 years. Everything just feels blah right now. But back to the discussion…I hate to see the division as well. The church my mom attends is dealing with that but they aren’t doing anything or taking a vote until stuff gets decided. As a result, people on both sides are leaving (bc they are all like pick a side—don’t wait to pick one) so I imagine in a year they will be in one of those mostly vacant strip mall type of deals in two years that for some reason keep getting built. Or they will take over a Tuesday Morning or BB&B or Kohls when that one finally falls apart. I struggle with organized religion but I also remember when I did attend a church that made me feel good about life and helping people and was a great way to start my week. Those are hard to find. 

[Patricio Swayze 17058]

https://www.instagram.com/p/CqN7ozpjWzh/

[Fondren & Main 6718]

12 minutes ago, Nicole44 said:

I mentioned this in the CR but it’s also a lot of the 70-90 year olds. They are the ones that still write checks and so on and they hate change. They also fear anything that resembles change. They were brought into church on a lot of fire and brimstone type shit. I have been to several places trying to find one and you have these dying churches or these mega church type of deals and they don’t appeal to me. Posters were kind enough to PM with suggestions. So that was cool. I especially want to feel connected right now after losing my uncle Sunday night suddenly—a surrogate father to my brother and I for 18 years. Everything just feels blah right now. But back to the discussion…I hate to see the division as well. The church my mom attends is dealing with that but they aren’t doing anything or taking a vote until stuff gets decided. As a result, people on both sides are leaving (bc they are all like pick a side—don’t wait to pick one) so I imagine in a year they will be in one of those mostly vacant strip mall type of deals in two years that for some reason keep getting built. Or they will take over a Tuesday Morning or BB&B or Kohls when that one finally falls apart. I struggle with organized religion but I also remember when I did attend a church that made me feel good about life and helping people and was a great way to start my week. Those are hard to find. 

Have you thought about looking at getting involved with a charity that has ties to particular denomination?  I find that helps.

[Nicole44 22060]

Just now, Fondren & Main said:

Have you thought about looking at getting involved with a charity that has ties to particular denomination?  I find that helps.

Thanks! I am looking into that! That’s a great idea. It’s rough finding a place. The mega churches freak me out and the smaller ones (even if they have a great mission/charity) look like the are about to go defunct. My mom’s church will fall apart bc they won’t pick a side until the main national leaders pick. So they have lost people on both sides for being on the fence. It’s gotta be a precarious thing bc the main donors and money givers are olds. And olds don’t want change. When I was little I remember the collection plate going around and everybody me out something in (little kids had a dollar from the parents.) last couple of times I went it went around three rows and nothing. My mom writes checks but she is old. I don’t know how some of these places even keep the lights on to tell the truth. 

[HOOKEM4 5037]

[TwiceHorn 31480]

51 minutes ago, Fondren & Main said:

Only Catholics and Orthodox can claim apostolic succession.  None of the other denominations have a solid foundation and crumble in the end.

I hope this is some kind of joke.  Otherwise, the Church of England, Anglican, Episcopal, Lutheran and every other protestant denomination would like a word.

And then there's that whole schism 1000 years ago that created the Orthodox church.  And then the subsequent schisms that created all the _______ Orthodox churches.

 

[troph 24806]

1 hour ago, Samson's Wig said:

I don't know how anyone can keep this straight.

I see what you did there.

[South Austin 52510]

[Fondren & Main 6718]

36 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

I hope this is some kind of joke.  Otherwise, the Church of England, Anglican, Episcopal, Lutheran and every other protestant denomination would like a word.

And then there's that whole schism 1000 years ago that created the Orthodox church.  And then the subsequent schisms that created all the _______ Orthodox churches.

 

The Church of England and Anglicanism are the same thing.  King Henry murdered St. Thomas More and decided to make himself the head of the church which he had no authority to do.  Episcopalians are just American Anglicans.  Apostates due to King Henry’s foolishness.

Martin Luther was originally Catholic, then became an apostate and vehement anti-semite.

The Orthodox Church were once in communion with the papacy and the papacy allows for Catholics to receive the Eucharist in the Orthodox Church as it is recognized as valid.  Eastern churches had some beef over papal authority.  Others say things like the filioque and the doctrine of purgatory were also factors.  But, they call purgatory “toll houses”.

I am not joking, but I am correct.

[Deej 76796]

1 hour ago, Leeroy Jenkins said:

The MAGA members are going one way and the rest are going the other way.

 

[F250 28777]

1 hour ago, Fondren & Main said:

The Church of England and Anglicanism are the same thing.  King Henry murdered St. Thomas More and decided to make himself the head of the church which he had no authority to do.  Episcopalians are just American Anglicans.  Apostates due to King Henry’s foolishness.

Martin Luther was originally Catholic, then became an apostate and vehement anti-semite.

The Orthodox Church were once in communion with the papacy and the papacy allows for Catholics to receive the Eucharist in the Orthodox Church as it is recognized as valid.  Eastern churches had some beef over papal authority.  Others say things like the filioque and the doctrine of purgatory were also factors.  But, they call purgatory “toll houses”.

I am not joking, but I am correct.

Just throw around the word apostate and then declare yourself correct. lol

You do realize this is how crazy people talk?

 

 

[Patricio Swayze 17058]

Just throw around the word apostate and then declare yourself correct. lol
You do realize this is how crazy people talk?
 
 

Christians are crazy. Have you read the Bible? It’s completely fucking insane. If you take it literally, completely fucking insane. If you take it as allegory, completely fucking insane. It’s a cult. Always has been.

[Gatorubet 30239]

4 hours ago, Fondren & Main said:

Only Catholics and Orthodox can claim apostolic succession.  None of the other denominations have a solid foundation and crumble in the end.

The guys in the tall white hats are full of it with this “on this rock” scam. See the Reformation. It was in all the Gutenberg papers. 

The Reformation got it wrong too. Only the Church of the Holy Beach Ball in Gatorubet’s backyard lawn chair can bring you salvation. It just so happens I have an “in” with His Beach Balliness, and for a small donation I will guarantee that your prayers will be eventually answered.*
 

*The church of the holy beach ball Theology does not guarantee that the object of your prayers will be answered in time.frames that are shorter than a human lifespan, or in this dimension, but trust in the Beachball and his promise of eventuality..

  

[Neonmoon 38129]

25 minutes ago, Patricio Swayze said:

Christians are crazy. Have you read the Bible? It’s completely fucking insane. If you take it literally, completely fucking insane. If you take it as allegory, completely fucking insane. It’s a cult. Always has been.

This pretty much sums it up

[NotActuallyALonghorn 4976]

5 hours ago, Fondren & Main said:

Only Catholics and Orthodox can claim apostolic succession.  None of the other denominations have a solid foundation and crumble in the end.

Apostolic succession had a legitimate purpose two thousand years ago. It was supposed to ensure that the leaders of new churches had received proper instruction from a chain of leaders that ultimately led back to Christ. But there have been a few things that happened in the mean time which significantly diminish its importance. The first was Constantine's conversion to Christianity. Christianity became mainstream and a state sponsored religion. This opened the door to the corruption that ultimately led to the reformation. There was good money to be made being a church leader. Next, we have the invention of the printing press. It is no secret that the rise of protestant denominations correlates with the availability of a local printing press. Church leaders could suddenly communicate directly with constituents instead of with other church leaders who would hopefully convey the same message, etc.

And then we get to the reformation itself. Martin Luther had no intention of starting a new church. He merely wished to reform a corrupted church from within that instead kicked him out, spent years making war on his followers, and then ultimately decided that he was right and they needed to reform themselves. If that's not a ringing endorsement of the current legitimacy of apostolic succession I don't know what is!

[Nicole44 22060]

2 hours ago, Patricio Swayze said:

Christians are crazy. Have you read the Bible? It’s completely fucking insane. If you take it literally, completely fucking insane. If you take it as allegory, completely fucking insane. It’s a cult. Always has been.

Aht lo leh vahd. 

[Anastasis 23471]

This thread so far is like watching a monkey try to fuck a football. I mean all around. 

[TwiceHorn 31480]

5 hours ago, Fondren & Main said:

The Church of England and Anglicanism are the same thing

Ackshually, they're not, though.  Well, Anglicanism describes their tenets, which are similar or identical, but there are multiple Anglican churches outside of England and the Church of England.

The point being that the Church of England was mostly a political separation from the Pope and Catholic Church, but one that took on its own life.

And your post was ridiculous overall. The Catholic Church never crumbles.  Bwahaha.

Papist.

[Rimbo 25936]

8 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

Note that the Presbyterians had their own split over the slavery and women issues back in the day....and have likewise experienced a split over thuh gayz in recent years (First Pres in San Antonio is no longer affiliated with the PCUSA; it's affiliated with "ECO - a Covenant Order of Evangelical Presbyterians" (they chose that name over "we think gayz are icky"). 

My childhood church in Amarillo did the same. Dad switched to Episcopalian; I moved to UCC.

[Rimbo 25936]

6 hours ago, Blotto said:

Why is god suddenly so wishy  washy on his LBGQT stance these days.

Not sure God changed His mind about anything. But people wrote the Bible, not God.

[TwiceHorn 31480]

Just now, Rimbo said:

Not sure God changed His mind about anything. But people wrote the Bible, not God.

And people write things like the General Discipline of the United Methodist Church and retrograde people are free to separate themselves from it and teh icky gayz.

[Rimbo 25936]

5 hours ago, Fondren & Main said:

I am not joking, but I am correct.

You are not joking, which just makes what you're typing funnier. 

[atomheartbevo 89674]

3 minutes ago, Rimbo said:

But people wrote the Bible, not God.

Next you're going to tell us that people write the dinosaur erotica on Amazon.

[956 Worldwide 34715]

8 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

I hope this is some kind of joke.  Otherwise, the Church of England, Anglican, Episcopal, Lutheran and every other protestant denomination would like a word.

And then there's that whole schism 1000 years ago that created the Orthodox church.  And then the subsequent schisms that created all the _______ Orthodox churches.

 

I think you mean the schism that created the Roman Catholic Church 😉.

In seriousness, I’m not sure what you’re referring to with the second paragraph. The only schism you’ve likely heard of is the Moscow-Constantinople one over Ukraine, unless you’re talking about Arsenists, Russian Old Believers, or Greek Old Calendrists (I don’t think you are). Prior to the Moscow-Constantinople dustup in 2018, none of the ____ churches were in schism with each other. 

[SL Xpress 7515]

A friend of mine is the pastor for a pretty large church on the west side of the city. They left the Methodist Church a couple of years ago over this issue. But he also has a gay house guest (brother in law) living under his roof with he and his wife right now. They flat out don't believe marriage in the church should be anything but between a man and a woman, and they believe the bible is explicit about that. They also do not believe openly gay people should be ordained as ministers in the faith. 

But they have a lot of beliefs I don't subscribe to, and vice versa. I still have a tremendous respect for him as a person and a pastor. 

There is a traditionalist theme that people are trying to paint as the culpability of religion, but I don't think that's necessarily the case. There's almost this belief I see that people think the human race is destined to become more and more tolerant, and that the future of humanity is one of more openness, with anyone opposing it on the wrong side of history. I hope that's true - and that there's no unintentional consequences - but I don't believe it. I believe the history of the human race is one of tribalism, and if the fear mongering and division become intense enough, one side will try to wipe out or otherwise permanently repress the other one. That's repeated over and over again. So the challenge is to not demonize the other side as we naturally fall into our tribes, and to ensure we're strong enough militarily to both defend ourselves and other aligned tribes when those forces seeking violent solutions gather up around the world, as much as possible. 

I would like to see people be able to practice their faith, while somehow not encouraging overly intense reactions on one side or the other, regardless of how unrealistic that may be. There's a portion of the Methodist Church that feels the Bible can be interpreted to be supportive of gay pastoral leaders, and then there are a lot of people within the Methodist Church who don't agree, and are choosing to leave. 

[Nicole44 22060]

The Christian religion should be the most open to LGBTQ 🏳️‍🌈 bc Jesus was. If you believe in that hippie Jesus that died for us he would do it again for anyone. That’s why the people should accept him. 

[South Austin 52510]

12 hours ago, Fondren & Main said:

Only Catholics and Orthodox can claim apostolic succession.  None of the other denominations have a solid foundation and crumble in the end.

“Who is this fucking guy?” Mark 4:20.

[DigglerontheHoof 21200]

5 hours ago, Anastasis said:

This thread so far is like watching a monkey try to fuck a football. I mean all around. 

As is Christianity 

[conVINCEd 21469]

Those leaving should call themselves the Methodist Anti-Gay American church.  

[Murfdogg21 4412]

14 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

American Christian denominations in the past split over schisms as to:

Slavery (how we ended up with northern and southern versions of the same denomination)

The ordination of women (liberal vs. conservative congregations)

And now thuh gayz (liberal vs. conservative congregations)

 

Same as it ever was.  Crappy side of history is consistent.

A difference of those though is being black or a woman was not defined as sinful behavior in the Old Testament (right next to how not to cut your hair or plant your crops) or New Testament. You are the lawyer and I haven’t brushed up on biblical texts in a couple decades, but I think the strict interpretation of sin was man-on-man sex (assuming anal but maybe bj’s and handies are part of “laying with another man”). Some thoughtful scholar should insist that lesbians and trans were not called out by Paul and should be welcomed if not encouraged. I think David and Solomon were both having orgies on the reg. 

[Fondren & Main 6718]

10 hours ago, F250 said:

Just throw around the word apostate and then declare yourself correct. lol

You do realize this is how crazy people talk?

 

 

Well, let’s define apostate then.  A person who renounces a political or religious belief or principle.  Is that the incorrect term?  What would be a more correct term?

Crazy would describe the current mental illness that is prevalent throughout society.  No, I don’t think I am, but you say so.  That’s fine.

 

[Schulz2.0 28954]

28 minutes ago, Murfdogg21 said:

I think David and Solomon were both having orgies on the reg. 

[Aqua Buddha 14597]

From a branding standpoint, if Methodists became anti-gay, they’d basically be Baptist Lite and slowly disintegrate over the years.

[Hermanator 7050]

[Brisketexan 105144]

A difference of those though is being black or a woman was not defined as sinful behavior in the Old Testament (right next to how not to cut your hair or plant your crops) or New Testament. You are the lawyer and I haven’t brushed up on biblical texts in a couple decades, but I think the strict interpretation of sin was man-on-man sex (assuming anal but maybe bj’s and handies are part of “laying with another man”). Some thoughtful scholar should insist that lesbians and trans were not called out by Paul and should be welcomed if not encouraged. I think David and Solomon were both having orgies on the reg. 

Might want to brush up on your history of biblical interpretation and how it was supposedly “different” on those two issues (slavery of Africans and women being ordained). There’s a stack a mile high of treatises full of “biblical authority” on how slavery is god-ordained, the inferiority of black people is the divine order, women are inferior per god’s design, all that shit.
We’re really, really good at interpreting the Bible to discover that god hates all the same people they we already hated. Man. What a coincidence.
And as for the “people are tribal, let’s give ‘em the space to be that way,” fuck that shit. Yeah, through history, we’re murderous assholes. Much of our progress and achievements as a species has been when we’ve worked through/past such impulses. Maybe we shouldn’t cement them in religious orthodoxy. We certainly shouldn’t celebrate it when we do.

[closetohumping 17442]

15 hours ago, Samson's Wig said:

I don't know how anyone can keep this straight.

Not with all these gays we can’t 

[tx ind 7013]

8 hours ago, Anastasis said:

This thread so far is like watching a monkey try to fuck a football. I mean all around. 

[Beau Vine 54230]

17 hours ago, Leeroy Jenkins said:

The MAGA members are going one way and the rest are going the other way.

One of my best friends is a bishop in the UMC, so I've been following this pretty closely for several years.  This schism basically started with the African churches under the UMC umbrella, and there were enough of them voting together that they were basically controlling the policy of the American UMC churches.

So the offshoot UMC organization now is basically Africans and MAGAs.  That should be entertaining.

[HRSchenker 2268]

6 hours ago, Nicole44 said:

The Christian religion should be the most open to LGBTQ 🏳️‍🌈 bc Jesus was. If you believe in that hippie Jesus that died for us he would do it again for anyone. That’s why the people should accept him. 

This is how my pastor friend explains it to me (not saying I agree with it, just that this is how he feels): Yes Christians should be open to the gay community but they should be relentless in their attempts to convert them away from their sinful ways. Jesus was all about "come as you are" but never about "leave as you came".

[F250 28777]

41 minutes ago, Beau Vine said:

One of my best friends is a bishop in the UMC, so I've been following this pretty closely for several years.  This schism basically started with the African churches under the UMC umbrella, and there were enough of them voting together that they were basically controlling the policy of the American UMC churches.

So the offshoot UMC organization now is basically Africans and MAGAs.  That should be entertaining.

I believe a similar situation has been occurring within the Anglican community with conservative Episcopal churches aligning with African bishops. From what I recall there was an attempt to restructure American Episcopal churches under African bishops.