Niece received ticket (passing stopped school bus) from 6 years ago

[Steel Shank 9432]

Question for our fine, fine group of lawyers - my niece received a traffic violation notice from AISD PD for passing a stopped school bus. The date of the violation is from December of 2017. Seems like 6 years to notify my niece is a bit much. Is this legit? If so, I'll tell her to pay the fine ($300) and stopping passing school buses. Young female drivers. SMH. 

[MissingInAction 25183]

Pics

[Dahobbs 17681]

11 minutes ago, Steel Shank said:

Question for our fine, fine group of lawyers - my niece received a traffic violation notice from AISD PD for passing a stopped school bus. The date of the violation is from December of 2017. Seems like 6 years to notify my niece is a bit much. Is this legit? If so, I'll tell her to pay the fine ($300) and stopping passing school buses. Young female drivers. SMH. 

How did she receive it? I think this is very questionable. My first instinct is that it is a scam, but it is possible that it is legit. That said, even if it is legit, I'm sure anyone can do anything about it anymore. 

Edited May 15, 2023 by Dahobbs

[Steel Shank 9432]

4 minutes ago, MissingInAction said:

Pics

 

[Steel Shank 9432]

4 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

How did she receive it? I think this is very questionable. My first instinct is that it is a scam, but it is possible that it is legit. That said, even if it is legit, I'm sure anyone can do anything about it anymore. 

Got a notice in the mail. Notice says make checks Payable to AISD. They have pics of her car passing the bus, so it looks legit. The 6 year delay seems odd.

[UnivTex34 1763]

@TXSooner518

Seemed like our resident expert a few years back.

[tx 3 putt 77421]

Pay some lawyer $50 to get rid of it 

[UTPhil2006 3812]

[Francisco 2.0 32428]

34 minutes ago, Steel Shank said:

Got a notice in the mail. Notice says make checks Payable to AISD. They have pics of her car passing the bus, so it looks legit. The 6 year delay seems odd.

 

Can a school district issue a traffic citation?  I would have assumed the school would have to pass this off to the police for them to handle.

 

[Steel Shank 9432]

2 minutes ago, Francisco 2.0 said:

 

Can a school district issue a traffic citation?  I would have assumed the school would have to pass this off to the police for them to handle.

 

It's actually from "AISD Police Department/School Bus Stop Arm Safety Department" with an address in Tempe, AZ. Payments go to Seattle, WA.

[Francisco 2.0 32428]

6 minutes ago, Steel Shank said:

It's actually from "AISD Police Department/School Bus Stop Arm Safety Department" with an address in Tempe, AZ. Payments go to Seattle, WA.

Hmmm.

https://www.ncsl.org/transportation/state-school-bus-stop-arm-camera-laws

Maybe I'm missing something here, but Texas is not listed as one of the 24 states where there is a statute against this sort of thing.

 

Also, this:

 

https://www.austinisd.org/transportation/faqs

 

Quote

Failure to pay the civil fine, or to timely request an Administrative Adjudication Hearing, is considered an admission of liability for the school bus stop arm violation and is a waiver of your right to appeal the imposition of the civil fine which will result in the assessment of appropriate civil fines, penalties, and costs. A late payment penalty will incur if you fail to pay the civil fine or request an Administrative Review within 30 days of the issue date of your Notice of Violation.

An arrest warrant may not be issued for failure to timely pay the civil fines, penalties, and costs and that the imposition of the civil penalty may not be recorded on the vehicle owner’s driving record.

 

 

Edited May 15, 2023 by Francisco 2.0

[Dahobbs 17681]

1 hour ago, Steel Shank said:

Got a notice in the mail. Notice says make checks Payable to AISD. They have pics of her car passing the bus, so it looks legit. The 6 year delay seems odd.

Got it. Does it say anything else about a hearing date or anything? I believe the SOL on this sort of offense is like 2 years. They may just be trying to get her to pay voluntarily. If they didn't issue a citation by 2019, I'm not sure there is much they can do to her other than send her a letter (But, I'm not a criminal defense attorney and this isn't legal advice).  

[Steel Shank 9432]

4 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

Got it. Does it say anything else about a hearing date or anything? I believe the SOL on this sort of offense is like 2 years. They may just be trying to get her to pay voluntarily. If they didn't issue a citation by 2019, I'm not sure there is much they can do to her other than send her a letter (But, I'm not a criminal defense attorney and this isn't legal advice).  

Nothing about a hearing date. The document looks to be from the collection folks contracted with AISD Police. Nothing in regards to failure to pay.

[Dahobbs 17681]

2 minutes ago, Steel Shank said:

Nothing about a hearing date. The document looks to be from the collection folks contracted with AISD Police. Nothing in regards to failure to pay.

So long as she doesn't affirm that he owes the pay and volunteers to repay it, I don't think there is anything they can do. Hell, I don't even know that she owes the money if she was never actually cited for it. Sending a letter like that may be a violation of the Fair Debt Collection Practices Act. 

[Doc Daneeka 6769]

Has she checked her credit report? If this has gone to collections, I wonder if they’ve reported it to any credit bureau. 

[Steel Shank 9432]

5 minutes ago, Doc Daneeka said:

Has she checked her credit report? If this has gone to collections, I wonder if they’ve reported it to any credit bureau. 

Not sure about her credit report, but this is from the website listed on the document:

Question 1. Why did I receive a Notice of Violation?

The registered owner of this motor vehicle was photographed passing a stopped school bus, in violation of Chapter 12-1, Article 7 of the Austin City Code: The owner of a motor vehicle that is operated in violation of Section 545.066 of the Texas Transportation Code, as amended, by passing a stopped camera enforced school bus displaying the visual signals required by Section 547.701(c) of the Texas Transportation Code, as amended, commits a civil offense and is liable for a civil fine under this regulation (www.austintexas.gov/resident/city-code).

 

Question 2. Will this be reported to my insurance or go against my driving record?

No, this is a civil penalty. Failure to pay the civil fine, or to timely request an Administrative Adjudication Hearing, is considered an admission of liability for the school bus stop arm violation and is a waiver of your right to appeal the imposition of the civil fine which will result in the assessment of appropriate civil fines, penalties, and costs.

 

www.violationinfo.com

[High Plains Drifter 11052]

2 hours ago, Steel Shank said:

 

 

would

 

 

[tx 3 putt 77421]

2 hours ago, MissingInAction said:

Pics

 

your place would be perfect to hide out until all this blows over 

[Post Oak 20271]

Tell em to get fucked

[blacklab 11951]

do what I do with all legal looking/from the government/toll tag type mail and throw it in the trash.

[gernblansten 3197]

1 hour ago, Steel Shank said:

Not sure about her credit report, but this is from the website listed on the document:

Question 1. Why did I receive a Notice of Violation?

The registered owner of this motor vehicle was photographed passing a stopped school bus, in violation of Chapter 12-1, Article 7 of the Austin City Code: The owner of a motor vehicle that is operated in violation of Section 545.066 of the Texas Transportation Code, as amended, by passing a stopped camera enforced school bus displaying the visual signals required by Section 547.701(c) of the Texas Transportation Code, as amended, commits a civil offense and is liable for a civil fine under this regulation (www.austintexas.gov/resident/city-code).

 

Question 2. Will this be reported to my insurance or go against my driving record?

No, this is a civil penalty. Failure to pay the civil fine, or to timely request an Administrative Adjudication Hearing, is considered an admission of liability for the school bus stop arm violation and is a waiver of your right to appeal the imposition of the civil fine which will result in the assessment of appropriate civil fines, penalties, and costs.

 

www.violationinfo.com

She needs to send a letter stating: "Failure to timely issue me a citation is considered an admission that you cannot prove I was driving that vehicle on that day, at that time, at that location as set forth in Chapter I've Slept Since Then, Article I've Drank to Excess Since Then, Too of the Niece's Piss Off You School Bus Folks Code."

[conVINCEd 21469]

I seem to remember reading about these school bus cameras somewhere, and the company running them took a page out of the red light camera people’s book and started changing the timing to increase revenue.

[DalTxHornFan 3117]

60/40 split on ticket collections between the camera company and the school district.

More than half who fight $300 school bus stop-arm tickets are winning

https://www.kxan.com/investigations/more-than-half-who-fight-300-school-bus-stop-arm-tickets-are-winning/

[MissingInAction 25183]

1 hour ago, tx 3 putt said:

 

your place would be perfect to hide out until all this blows over 

Yes. I would be happy to provide some "comfort" during these tough times.

[Gil Bang 26019]

3 hours ago, UnivTex34 said:

@TXSooner518

Seemed like our resident expert a few years back.

You mean Dillo Pad?  He's the traffic ticket expert.

[Steel Shank 9432]

I think I'm going to tell her to send them a letter saying she wants to contest the tickets, but since it's been 6 years, critical evidence to her case is no longer available, and therefore, she is not being afforded a fair opportunity to contest. And, oh, they can go fuck themselves.

 

Then maybe I can get her to round up some of her former sorority sisters to show up at the next Surly happy hour.

Edited May 15, 2023 by Steel Shank

[MonkeyDoughnut 10356]

1 minute ago, Steel Shank said:

I think I'm going to tell her to send them a letter saying she wants to contest the tickets, but since it's been 6 years, critical evidence to her case is no longer available, and therefore, she is not being afforded a fair opportunity to contest. And, oh, they can go fuck themselves.

Good choice. Its a very gray area other than they can't affect driving record and can't be sent to collections... so after 6 years my guess is someone decided to resend all non-payments to see if any would bite and just pay it

[UnivTex34 1763]

3 minutes ago, Gil Bang said:

You mean Dillo Pad?  He's the traffic ticket expert.

No, I think @TXSooner518 is the lawyer that has worked with municipal Texas traffic courts, and provided good insight/advice in years past. But I may be getting my worthless Sooners/Lawyers mixed up.

[Gil Bang 26019]

It was a goof.

Dillo Pad was a cunt that posted on the old site.

He got a speeding ticket, and argued with every lawyer on the board about how it was certain to be dismissed because of a typo. They all told him he was full of shit, but he was certain that he would prevail.

He went to court, lost, and paid the fine. 

[Bevo 13601]

7 minutes ago, Gil Bang said:

It was a goof.

Dillo Pad was a cunt that posted on the old site.

He got a speeding ticket, and argued with every lawyer on the board about how it was certain to be dismissed because of a typo. They all told him he was full of shit, but he was certain that he would prevail.

He went to court, lost, and paid the fine. 

Did he strenuously and vigorously object?

[Bevo 13601]

I had an attorney here in Austin from the old Shag but I can't remember his username. I should have emails from him though.

[Kennythetiger 9460]

1 hour ago, blacklab said:

do what I do with all legal looking/from the government/toll tag type mail and throw it in the trash.

Isn’t that how we lost Shaggy?  

[Prepuce of Doom 21103]

It's unclear whether they mailed you those pictures or if you logged into their website to view them, but for whatever it's worth, if you have logged on and viewed the camera footage, you have also provided them with indisputable proof of service. 

Edited May 15, 2023 by Prepuce of Doom

[DalTxHornFan 3117]

53 minutes ago, MonkeyDoughnut said:

Good choice. Its a very gray area other than they can't affect driving record and can't be sent to collections... so after 6 years my guess is someone decided to resend all non-payments to see if any would bite and just pay it

Yep.  I'd bet that this is a money grab like the debt collectors that buy old debt that is no longer enforceable, then send scary collection notices out to folks, and then in the fine print say that any payments that you make to them would be totally voluntary.

[Doc Daneeka 6769]

13 minutes ago, Prepuce of Doom said:

It's unclear whether they mailed you those pictures or if you logged into their website to view them, but for whatever it's worth, if you have logged on and viewed the camera footage, you have also provided them with indisputable proof of service. 

Six years later, perhaps.

It’s not clear, to me, at least, whether this is an attempt at collections for an entered judgment or this is supposed to be notice from AISD.

[Steel Shank 9432]

The notice was just received by her. I think it's a money grab like stated above. If it's not and they end up throwing her in the slammer, I'll make a mental note for any future situations I may incur. Plus I'll send her some cigarettes and nylons. Maybe she'll show up on the "Date An Inmate" thread.

[Brisketexan 105334]

1 hour ago, Steel Shank said:

I think I'm going to tell her to send them a letter saying she wants to contest the tickets, but since it's been 6 years, critical evidence to her case is no longer available, and therefore, she is not being afforded a fair opportunity to contest. And, oh, they can go fuck themselves.

 

Then maybe I can get her to round up some of her former sorority sisters to show up at the next Surly happy hour.

This is the right answer.

My wife actually got one of these notices (it was timely, within a few months), but we contested it because it was fucking bullshit -- bus was parked along the side of a road, obscured by vegetation, right next to an intersection.  So, she couldn't see it until after she turned left onto that street at an intersection, and once she completed the left turn, she was next to the bus.  Contested it.  They dropped it.

Fuck em.

Also, I'd appreciate it if you'd also send a "fuck you" to the Harris County Toll Authority, which periodically sends me notices that my car went through a toll booth, and I need to pay by mail because they traced the license plate to me.  Except the dude they're going after has a name that is only loosely similar to mine.  But hey, one messican name is the same as any other, let's see if he'll pay it.  I just send 'em back their envelope with a "fuck off, this isn't me, try to collect again and I'll skullfuck you" message.  It's worked so far.

[DalTxHornFan 3117]

16 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

This is the right answer.

My wife actually got one of these notices (it was timely, within a few months), but we contested it because it was fucking bullshit -- bus was parked along the side of a road, obscured by vegetation, right next to an intersection.  So, she couldn't see it until after she turned left onto that street at an intersection, and once she completed the left turn, she was next to the bus.  Contested it.  They dropped it.

Fuck em.

Also, I'd appreciate it if you'd also send a "fuck you" to the Harris County Toll Authority, which periodically sends me notices that my car went through a toll booth, and I need to pay by mail because they traced the license plate to me.  Except the dude they're going after has a name that is only loosely similar to mine.  But hey, one messican name is the same as any other, let's see if he'll pay it.  I just send 'em back their envelope with a "fuck off, this isn't me, try to collect again and I'll skullfuck you" message.  It's worked so far.

I moved from TxTag to a TollTag a couple of years ago and have been beyond pleased.  Very convenient at DFW and Love parking, as well.  Such a difference in competence.

Somehow TxTag ended up hooking up my email address with my daughter-in-law's license plate (same last name, maybe?) and sending me rando collection notices about how they had to do the "pay by mail" because they couldn't read her TxTag.

Guess who has a new TollTag?  Screw the TxDot TxTags!

 

[Gil Bang 26019]

1 hour ago, Brisketexan said:

This is the right answer.

My wife actually got one of these notices (it was timely, within a few months), but we contested it because it was fucking bullshit -- bus was parked along the side of a road, obscured by vegetation, right next to an intersection.  So, she couldn't see it until after she turned left onto that street at an intersection, and once she completed the left turn, she was next to the bus.  Contested it.  They dropped it.

Fuck em.

Also, I'd appreciate it if you'd also send a "fuck you" to the Harris County Toll Authority, which periodically sends me notices that my car went through a toll booth, and I need to pay by mail because they traced the license plate to me.  Except the dude they're going after has a name that is only loosely similar to mine.  But hey, one messican name is the same as any other, let's see if he'll pay it.  I just send 'em back their envelope with a "fuck off, this isn't me, try to collect again and I'll skullfuck you" message.  It's worked so far.

It's Texas.  Tell them "I'd pay you but you bussed me to Manhattan".

[CooterBrown 18028]

My wife got one in the mail last week. It occurred on the 1st. The video showed that the bus stopped on Lamar across from Pease Park where there are no homes. My wife was about 20 feet from passing the bus in the opposite direction when the arm went down. No way to stop without slamming on the brakes and getting rear ended. She’s gonna contest because she can do no wrong.

[Sam Lin 3561]

3 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

Also, I'd appreciate it if you'd also send a "fuck you" to the Harris County Toll Authority, which periodically sends me notices that my car went through a toll booth, and I need to pay by mail because they traced the license plate to me.  

You didn't let Roflbox borrow your car for years, did you?

[Sam Lin 3561]

5 hours ago, Steel Shank said:

I think I'm going to tell her to send them a letter saying she wants to contest the tickets,

Don't reply at all, just toss it. I thought I read somewhere that if you get in contact it may reset some sort of collection timer in their system so they keep trying instead of abandoning the collection sooner. (This is based on random shit I read on Google, so it is worth less than you paid for it and may have come out of my ass after coming out of someone else's ass first.)

[TXSooner518 2438]

16 hours ago, UnivTex34 said:

No, I think @TXSooner518 is the lawyer that has worked with municipal Texas traffic courts, and provided good insight/advice in years past. But I may be getting my worthless Sooners/Lawyers mixed up.

Close, JP courts, but thanks for the shout, good recall! As others have mentioned, a sworn complaint must be filed within 2 years of the offense for a misdemeanor criminal offense to not be outside the statute of limitations. But they aren't trying to pursue criminal charges, this is a civil debt (as it states, she can't go to jail or have it go on her driving record, etc.). There are statutes of limitations for civil causes of action as well. I don't know how a court would classify this cause of action, but the general statute of limitations for debt is 4 years in Texas. 

11 hours ago, Sam Lin said:

Don't reply at all, just toss it. I thought I read somewhere that if you get in contact it may reset some sort of collection timer in their system so they keep trying instead of abandoning the collection sooner. (This is based on random shit I read on Google, so it is worth less than you paid for it and may have come out of my ass after coming out of someone else's ass first.)

"Dealings between the parties" can reset the statute of limitations in debt collection cases. There is argument over whether simple communications count (most courts say no). Definitely any payment counts, which is why debt collectors love the "Pay $20 just to show you're serious about your obligations" tactic since it resets the clock. 

 

The options are: Ignore it, which they will take as an admission of liability, and will create a civil debt which they will potentially attempt to collect, creating hassle, but also potentially will just go away.  Or request the hearing as they offer and state that facts and evidence are lost due to the pursuit of this 6 years after the fact, more than triple the misdemeanor statute of limitations for the same conduct, and more than 2 years after a debt can legally be sued for.  I have no familiarity with this company or these hearings, so have no idea which path is better. 

[Your Mom 4852]

20 hours ago, Steel Shank said:

 

I knew AISD was getting fucked with Robin Hood but I didn’t realize we were bussing kids in VW Buses now. 

[Dahobbs 17681]

23 hours ago, TXSooner518 said:

Close, JP courts, but thanks for the shout, good recall! As others have mentioned, a sworn complaint must be filed within 2 years of the offense for a misdemeanor criminal offense to not be outside the statute of limitations. But they aren't trying to pursue criminal charges, this is a civil debt (as it states, she can't go to jail or have it go on her driving record, etc.). There are statutes of limitations for civil causes of action as well. I don't know how a court would classify this cause of action, but the general statute of limitations for debt is 4 years in Texas. 

"Dealings between the parties" can reset the statute of limitations in debt collection cases. There is argument over whether simple communications count (most courts say no). Definitely any payment counts, which is why debt collectors love the "Pay $20 just to show you're serious about your obligations" tactic since it resets the clock. 

 

The options are: Ignore it, which they will take as an admission of liability, and will create a civil debt which they will potentially attempt to collect, creating hassle, but also potentially will just go away.  Or request the hearing as they offer and state that facts and evidence are lost due to the pursuit of this 6 years after the fact, more than triple the misdemeanor statute of limitations for the same conduct, and more than 2 years after a debt can legally be sued for.  I have no familiarity with this company or these hearings, so have no idea which path is better. 

So, what is the legal basis for a civil debt if there was never a ticket or conviction for the misdemeanor? Isn't the civil penalty connected to the underlying criminal offense? Below is the only statutory basis I'm aware of. I just don't see anything with a civil penalty that doesn't have a criminal conviction as a predicate.

https://statutes.capitol.texas.gov/Docs/TN/htm/TN.545.htm

Quote

 

Sec. 545.066. PASSING A SCHOOL BUS; OFFENSE.

(a) An operator on a highway, when approaching from either direction a school bus stopped on the highway to receive or discharge a student:

(1) shall stop before reaching the school bus when the bus is operating a visual signal as required by Section 547.701; and

(2) may not proceed until:

(A) the school bus resumes motion;

(B) the operator is signaled by the bus driver to proceed; or

(C) the visual signal is no longer actuated.

(b) An operator on a highway having separate roadways is not required to stop:

(1) for a school bus that is on a different roadway; or

(2) if on a controlled-access highway, for a school bus that is stopped:

(A) in a loading zone that is a part of or adjacent to the highway; and

(B) where pedestrians are not permitted to cross the roadway.

(c) An offense under this section is a misdemeanor punishable by a fine of not less than $500 or more than $1,250, except that the offense is:

(1) a misdemeanor punishable by a fine of not less than $1,000 or more than $2,000 if the person is convicted of a second or subsequent offense under this section committed within five years of the date on which the most recent preceding offense was committed;

(2) a Class A misdemeanor if the person causes serious bodily injury to another; or

(3) a state jail felony if the person has been previously convicted under Subdivision (2).

(d) The court may order that the driver's license of a person convicted of a second or subsequent offense under this section be suspended for not longer than six months beginning on the date of conviction. In this subsection, "driver's license" has the meaning assigned by Chapter 521.

(e) If a person does not pay the previously assessed fine or costs on a conviction under this section, or is determined by the court to have insufficient resources or income to pay a fine or costs on a conviction under this section, the court may order the person to perform community service. The court shall set the number of hours of service under this subsection.

(f) For the purposes of this section:

(1) a highway is considered to have separate roadways only if the highway has roadways separated by an intervening space on which operation of vehicles is not permitted, a physical barrier, or a clearly indicated dividing section constructed to impede vehicular traffic; and

(2) a highway is not considered to have separate roadways if the highway has roadways separated only by a left turn lane.

 

My initial take is tell them to pound sand. 

Edited May 17, 2023 by Dahobbs

[TXSooner518 2438]

It’s the same thing as the red light cameras. They can’t actually prove beyond a reasonable doubt the criminal offense since they can’t show who is driving the car. So anything going back to “well the car registered to you did this” would have to be civil.

Similar to this, they take your lack of challenging it in requesting a hearing as liability. Definitely very tenuous but also possible to end up a huge pain in the ass.

[C-Man 27262]

On 5/15/2023 at 2:57 PM, blacklab said:

do what I do with all legal looking/from the government/toll tag type mail and throw it in the trash.

Hey, that's what I do with jury summons!

[George 493]

So if you don’t pay, are there any consequences beyond a sternly worded letter?

if yes, what gives them right to a claim civilly?

weird shit. Would have thought there’d be something official on the books somewhere. 
 

[Prepuce of Doom 21103]

Pay the fine, but also firebomb the mailing address. 

[CooterBrown 18028]

It’s the same thing as the red light cameras. They can’t actually prove beyond a reasonable doubt the criminal offense since they can’t show who is driving the car. So anything going back to “well the car registered to you did this” would have to be civil.

Similar to this, they take your lack of challenging it in requesting a hearing as liability. Definitely very tenuous but also possible to end up a huge pain in the ass.

My wife’s fine was sent to me. I assume because I’m listed first on the registration. My argument will be I wasn’t driving and you can’t give a ticket to a car.