Being a shithead in a Sonic parking lot? That's a blasting, by 12 yo with AR type rifle.

[conVINCEd 21,469]

2 minutes ago, fattyflattie said:

True?  Or hyperbole? Checks poster. It’s not true; surprised face. 
 

Oh, guns crimes are committed by one faction of society?  I wonder if the stats back that up? I’m guessing you’re not going to like which faction more commonly commits crimes with guns.  They aren’t going to be the ones complaining about blacks, anyhow. 

You know, here’s the thing:  I can pretty easily avoid the south side of Chicago.  It’s a little harder to avoid Wal Mart, grocery stores, churches, malls, and schools.

[NeverMarryAStripper 21,907]

Nvm

Edited May 17, 2023 by NeverMarryAStripper

[Basil 754]

2 hours ago, Bevo said:

A lot of people are for gun reform. However, there is always (not sometimes), always, government creep and that scares the shit out of casual gun owners and hunters and government weary individuals. I think the only way for common sense gun control is by an amendment with specific language to disallow creep: Lawyers would have to say if such a thing exists as creep proof legislation. Best intentions and all that.

How many children are you willing to sacrifice to the NRA so you don't have to be afraid of scary "government creep"?  100 more?  1000?  Or do you really just not give a fuck?

[royiv 9,317]

2 minutes ago, conVINCEd said:

You know, here’s the thing:  I can pretty easily avoid the south side of Chicago.  It’s a little harder to avoid Wal Mart, grocery stores, churches, malls, and schools.

I would rather go to the south side of Chicago than to a Wal Mart, mall or church.

[YGIFS 19,450]

5 minutes ago, conVINCEd said:

You know, here’s the thing:  I can pretty easily avoid the south side of Chicago.  It’s a little harder to avoid Wal Mart, grocery stores, churches, malls, and schools.

it's just where we are now.  We justify the wholesale slaughter of small children with military grade firepower, so grotesque their own parents can't identify their faces by telling ourselves, "Yes, but also there are firearms deaths in another part of the country so think about that before you judge this situation." 

Somebody hopped up on over-dosage of Rx drugs runs a school bus full of kids off the road in Texas and kills 19 of 'em, do we look at the car and the traffic signal and the drugs and the pharmacist/doctor and the person's background or red flags?  Nope, we look at the person in Chicago who also took the wrong dosage of drugs and ran into a guy on a bike.  And because both things happened the same week, absolutely nothing can be done.

[fattyflattie 4,639]

5 minutes ago, conVINCEd said:

You know, here’s the thing:  I can pretty easily avoid the south side of Chicago.  It’s a little harder to avoid Wal Mart, grocery stores, churches, malls, and schools.

The places where you have a lottery winning chance at being part of a mass shooting.  Got it.  And it’s the gun nuts that live in fear? 
 

 

[fattyflattie 4,639]

9 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

We are not making it any more difficult to acquire firearms; we are actively making it EASIER. 

You must have forgotten the part about gaining as much firepower as you want. I mean you said it, then left it out when I called it bullshit. I mean, it takes a year to get hearing protection. That sounds super unregulated.  

[texashorne 1,178]

1 minute ago, YGIFS said:

it's just where we are now.  We justify the wholesale slaughter of small children with military grade firepower, so grotesque their own parents can't identify their faces by telling ourselves, "Yes, but also there are firearms deaths in another part of the country so think about that before you judge this situation." 

Somebody hopped up on over-dosage of Rx drugs runs a school bus full of kids off the road in Texas and kills 19 of 'em, do we look at the car and the traffic signal and the drugs and the pharmacist/doctor and the person's background or red flags?  Nope, we look at the person in Chicago who also took the wrong dosage of drugs and ran into a guy on a bike.  And because both things happened the same week, absolutely nothing can be done.

18 year olds buying guns is terrifying to me. The modern 18 year old is a borderline retard.. tack on all their inability to cope with modern society and they are the last group that needs the right to purchase a gun. Raise it to 25. 

 

 

[YGIFS 19,450]

2 minutes ago, fattyflattie said:

The places where you have a lottery winning chance at being part of a mass shooting.  Got it.  And it’s the gun nuts that live in fear? 
 

 

Fair point.  The odds of the actual outcome don't really worry me.  But two things on this:

1.  If it's such a statistically low occurrence why all the political talk (not saying by you, but in Texas) about "Good Guy with a Gun is needed", answer is "more guns", let's make it easier to defend ourselves from mass shootings, open carry for defense in public, etc.  Why come heavy if it's a lottery winning chance in hell?

2.  I'm not overly-worried about my daughter getting shot up at school.  What I am worried about is she's already done 12 active shooter drills at school by the 2nd grade.  They've already had two live active shooter events, the "this is not a drill" type ordeal because an armed weirdo was in the woods near her school and then another time a kid brought dad's unsecured gun to the middle school next to her elementary school.  Think about what even the threat of that does to a little kid's head.  Years and years of that are either gonna fuck them up mentally or worse, desensitize them to gun violence.  Way worse than video games and rap lyrics.  Between "Welcome to the Fuck Shop" by Two Live Crew and learning how to stop the bleeding on your teacher's neck so they can call for help...I'll take Biggie and snoop.

[fattyflattie 4,639]

Just now, YGIFS said:

Fair point.  The odds of the actual outcome don't really worry me.  But two things on this:

1.  If it's such a statistically low occurrence why all the political talk (not saying by you, but in Texas) about "Good Guy with a Gun is needed", answer is "more guns", let's make it easier to defend ourselves from mass shootings, open carry for defense in public, etc.  Why come heavy if it's a lottery winning chance in hell?

2.  I'm not overly-worried about my daughter getting shot up at school.  What I am worried about is she's already done 12 active shooter drills at school by the 2nd grade.  They've already had two live active shooter events, the "this is not a drill" type ordeal because an armed weirdo was in the woods near her school and then another time a kid brought dad's unsecured gun to the middle school next to her elementary school.  Think about what even the threat of that does to a little kid's head.  Years and years of that are either gonna fuck them up mentally or worse, desensitize them to gun violence.  Way worse than video games and rap lyrics.  Between "Welcome to the Fuck Shop" by Two Live Crew and learning how to stop the bleeding on your teacher's neck so they can call for help...I'll take Biggie and snoop.

I can’t answer #1, I don’t carry. Never have, never intend to.  
 

#2 worries me 100x more than being shot in a mall or grocery store.  My oldest is a bit older than yours, and the remaining right in the mix with yours.  I still vividly remember the conversation with the oldest when they rolled it out at school.  Even more unfortunate, my kids hunt with me.  They know what a firearm is capable of, which has to add further anxiety (to be able to ACTUALLY visualize). 

[conVINCEd 21,469]

Just now, fattyflattie said:

The places where you have a lottery winning chance at being part of a mass shooting.  Got it.  And it’s the gun nuts that live in fear? 
 

 

Let’s just say that I view violent crimes that result from the drug trade a little differently than the wholesale slaughter of people who are just going about their boring little lives.  The drug/gang crowd knew what they were signing up for.  Maybe they didn’t have a lot of choice due growing up in a shitty part of town with less than ideal parents, but they made a choice to participate in an activity that is inherently dangerous.  The people who are being killed in these mass shootings made no such choice. I have an equal amount of empathy for innocent bystanders who get hurt/killed as a result the violence associated with the drug trade, but the vast majority of those killed are participants.

[YGIFS 19,450]

Why i said not you specifically, but wondering if you can shed some light on it given your other stances.  I certainly plenty of people of that conduct themselves with free carry and deep paranoia.  But asking them about it these days is like asking, "Hey, is your wife putting on weight?"   

But to #2, I've been thinking about this.  A few years ago, I kinda thought when the oldest gets to be about 10 or so, I'll take her to the range with some small rifle or some shit or at least watch me shoot just to get a sense of what these things are and they can do.  But at this point, is that helpful, harmful, does it just add to the stress of her?  Do I wait longer?  Do we watch videos about it?  I honestly don't know anymore because of how many more school shootups and how many traumatic warnings they have on a regular basis now.  All we've done so far is teach her if shes at a friend or family's house and she sees a gun out in the open (bed, table, chair, garage, whatever)...she is to back up from it with her eyes on it and find an adult, not her friend, and tell them immediately what she saw and where and then walk out of the house and wait in the front yard.  

Yeah, I know they can't live in fear...neither can we.  But those active warnings and regular drills are real things.  They actually happen.  They actually see the actual news talking about actual dead kids.  That shit fucks with little kids.  It just does.  Has nothing to do with our bullshit.  I remember tornado drills in Northern Illinois growing up and the first few were scary as shit and then we actually had a couple of real tornadoes nearby (one really deadly one in nearby Plainfield).  You get a little older and take science class and realize you can't stop a tornado with any law or guideline.  All you do is follow the safety protocols.  If only we could do something about school shootings, but alas---we are powerless as we are against tornadoes.  

[Gatorubet 30,238]

26 minutes ago, royiv said:

I would rather go to the south side of Chicago than to a Wal Mart, mall or church.

Royiv is Leroy Brown?

[YGIFS 19,450]

Meanest cat in the whole downtown?  

 

Edited May 17, 2023 by YGIFS

[fattyflattie 4,639]

16 minutes ago, conVINCEd said:

Let’s just say that I view violent crimes that result from the drug trade a little differently than the wholesale slaughter of people who are just going about their boring little lives.  The drug/gang crowd knew what they were signing up for.  Maybe they didn’t have a lot of choice due growing up in a shitty part of town with less than ideal parents, but they made a choice to participate in an activity that is inherently dangerous.  The people who are being killed in these mass shootings made no such choice. I have an equal amount of empathy for innocent bystanders who get hurt/killed as a result the violence associated with the drug trade, but the vast majority of those killed are participants.

I agree.  What is your thoughts on suicide?  Better known as >50% of US gun deaths.  Also, something that seems like a choice, and someone knowing what they signed up for?

[YGIFS 19,450]

That's the thing about gun suicides, is it's so quick and easy.  I would like to see a more in depth study done just on gun suicide.  But they are hard to come by since most of the participants are apparently unavailable to be interviewed.  

I do remember one CDC study from years ago that estimated about half did not have the typical markings of a premeditated suicide (leaving notes, giving away items, search history, not showing up for work, that kinda shit, etc.).  so in those cases, one can surmise that some of them would still find another way but there does appear to be a plurality, perhaps majority, of cases that but for the quick, easy, and painless death by gunshot...a large number, perhaps more than half would not go through with suicide but for the easy access to the gun.  I know there's the guy who plans it all out, goes and buys the gun, and sits with it for a week and confirms his decision to end it that way.  Likewise, there's the guy who has owned it responsibly for a decade...gets drunk and angry, maybe off his meds, and uses it as a rash fixer in a haze.  I'm guessing most lie somewhere in between.  

And this isn't a "but what about mental health" talking point, but if somebody is inclined to use a gun to take their own life on a whim...if they're wired like that...what else are they wired to do with that gun and why are we giving those kinds of people so many guns>?

Edited May 17, 2023 by YGIFS

[Foosters 17,856]

9 minutes ago, fattyflattie said:

What is your thoughts on suicide?

Generally against it.

[gmr548 16,580]

The religious right and gun rights people are totally different groups. The Venn Diagram wouldn't look like you are thinking. 

It’s a single circle when it comes to, you know, voting for the government doing the creeping.

[fattyflattie 4,639]

17 minutes ago, YGIFS said:

Why i said not you specifically, but wondering if you can shed some light on it given your other stances.  I certainly plenty of people of that conduct themselves with free carry and deep paranoia.  But asking them about it these days is like asking, "Hey, is your wife putting on weight?"   

But to #2, I've been thinking about this.  A few years ago, I kinda thought when the oldest gets to be about 10 or so, I'll take her to the range with some small rifle or some shit or at least watch me shoot just to get a sense of what these things are and they can do.  But at this point, is that helpful, harmful, does it just add to the stress of her?  Do I wait longer?  Do we watch videos about it?  I honestly don't know anymore because of how many more school shootups and how many traumatic warnings they have on a regular basis now.  All we've done so far is teach her if shes at a friend or family's house and she sees a gun out in the open (bed, table, chair, garage, whatever)...she is to back up from it with her eyes on it and find an adult, not her friend, and tell them immediately what she saw and where and then walk out of the house and wait in the front yard.  

Yeah, I know they can't live in fear...neither can we.  But those active warnings and regular drills are real things.  They actually happen.  They actually see the actual news talking about actual dead kids.  That shit fucks with little kids.  It just does.  Has nothing to do with our bullshit.  I remember tornado drills in Northern Illinois growing up and the first few were scary as shit and then we actually had a couple of real tornadoes nearby (one really deadly one in nearby Plainfield).  You get a little older and take science class and realize you can't stop a tornado with any law or guideline.  All you do is follow the safety protocols.  If only we could do something about school shootings, but alas---we are powerless as we are against tornadoes.  

I'm not certain even the range shows them, or would be good for them to see.  Your kids appear to be pretty bright, not sure they would need to visualize it.  And even then, holes in paper and firecracker noises aren't the same.   I don't see any issue at all with making them proficient/able around firearms once they are old enough to be responsible.  Teaching them to GTFO and tell an adult is a great thing all parents should do, we did it was well.  Mine have known they aren't allowed to touch any including ours unless I am right there with them and instruct them too, for example.

And of course it fucks with kids.  Hell, it fucks with adults.  I read or hear about some of the schools (like Nashville) that were decently "hardened", and immediately think how mine is nowhere near that (read: this is not a HaRdEn ScHoOlS!!1! post) and it ramps up the anxiety even more. 

I have said many times to Bevo's point upthread, I think things would change if the proposed legislation was clear as fuck - one liner type stuff.  If you have to pass 20 one liner laws, so be it.   There would be a round or so of R's that wouldn't pass it, and they'd pay for it in the next election.  Maybe not on controversial shit, but on the basics, they'd be toast. 

[conVINCEd 21,469]

16 minutes ago, fattyflattie said:

I agree.  What is your thoughts on suicide?  Better known as >50% of US gun deaths.  Also, something that seems like a choice, and someone knowing what they signed up for?

We need to devote a lot more resources to mental health, but if someone reaches that point,  and there was nothing anyone could do to prevent it, I suppose a small part of me would be thankful that they didn’t chose to take some people with them.

[fattyflattie 4,639]

14 minutes ago, conVINCEd said:

We need to devote a lot more resources to mental health, but if someone reaches that point,  and there was nothing anyone could do to prevent it, I suppose a small part of me would be thankful that they didn’t chose to take some people with them.

Agreed. I think a part of what we're seeing is suicidal people that have for some reason deciding to take people with them.  More so that what we had in the past. 

[B00M 6,416]

1 hour ago, texashorne said:

18 year olds buying guns is terrifying to me. The modern 18 year old is a borderline retard.. tack on all their inability to cope with modern society and they are the last group that needs the right to purchase a gun. Raise it to 25. 

 

 

So they’re citizens, adults, they can serve in the military, they can vote for politicians that vote for war, they’re more likely than any other group to be a victim of crime, but they can’t own any gun until 25? 

[Brisketexan 105,139]

1 hour ago, fattyflattie said:

You must have forgotten the part about gaining as much firepower as you want. I mean you said it, then left it out when I called it bullshit. I mean, it takes a year to get hearing protection. That sounds super unregulated.  

You're really going back to the "the Feds make it hard to buy cans!" argument?  From the perspective of the people facing the bang-y end of the rifle....WHO THE FUCK CARES?  The shooter's escapades in Allen would have been made no more or less lethal by the presence of a can on the end of the gun.  Cans are a non-issue when it comes to firepower.

If you want to buy things that go bang, can go bang a lot in a short period of time, and do tremendous damage when they do, it is EASIER TODAY to acquire that weapon than it was before Sandy Hook.  And in fact, the "thought leaders" on the pro-gun side, instead of saying "guns are a serious and dangerous tool, and one should be thoughtful before acquiring one or using one," have gone the exact opposite direction, and encouraged it and made it a badge of freedomeagleawesomepatriotflag:

 

 

[wildcat09 29,354]

1 hour ago, fattyflattie said:

You must have forgotten the part about gaining as much firepower as you want. I mean you said it, then left it out when I called it bullshit. I mean, it takes a year to get hearing protection. That sounds super unregulated.  

Buddy, it's extremely easy to get hearing protection. A ton of those options can be shipped to your home today if you have Prime.

[YGIFS 19,450]

9 minutes ago, B00M said:

So they’re citizens, adults, they can serve in the military, they can vote for politicians that vote for war, they’re more likely than any other group to be a victim of crime, but they can’t own any gun until 25? 

Can’t speak for him but I think he was just taking about restricting access to 25 for assault rifles, not all firearms.  
 

it’s a weird juxtaposition.  I meet a lot of 18-23 through volunteer work (not a youth minister!) and I think silently, “man four years in the marine corps would do you a lot of good.  Also, stay the fuck away from girls and guns ‘cause you’re a fucking mess. A walking date rape or active shooter event waiting to happen.”  

[fattyflattie 4,639]

7 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

You're really going back to the "the Feds make it hard to buy cans!" argument?  From the perspective of the people facing the bang-y end of the rifle....WHO THE FUCK CARES?  The shooter's escapades in Allen would have been made no more or less lethal by the presence of a can on the end of the gun.  Cans are a non-issue when it comes to firepower.

If you want to buy things that go bang, can go bang a lot in a short period of time, and do tremendous damage when they do, it is EASIER TODAY to acquire that weapon than it was before Sandy Hook.  And in fact, the "thought leaders" on the pro-gun side, instead of saying "guns are a serious and dangerous tool, and one should be thoughtful before acquiring one or using one," have gone the exact opposite direction, and encouraged it and made it a badge of freedomeagleawesomepatriotflag:

 

 

I'd rather you just argue in good faith.  NO ONE can "get as much firepower as they like" as you stated.  It's just more bullshit hyperbole.  If I'm incorrect, point me to the closest MP5. 

[Captainant 27,669]

14 minutes ago, B00M said:

So they’re citizens, adults, they can serve in the military, they can vote for politicians that vote for war, they’re more likely than any other group to be a victim of crime, but they can’t own any gun until 25? 

Well for one, the frontal lobe of the brain is usually finished developing by the time you're 25. That's the part of your brain that governs executive functions and is literally what helps you to think before you act. Granted, some folks will overshoot and some will undershoot that age, but at the very least I'd bet it would reduce the factors that contribute to the most risky situations

[fattyflattie 4,639]

4 minutes ago, YGIFS said:

an’t speak for him but I think he was just taking about restricting access to 25 for assault rifles, not all firearms.  

And as we know, the kid at sonic definitely wouldnt have picked up a 9mm or shotgun and done the same thing.  It's very important to the story it happened to be another AR.

 

5 minutes ago, YGIFS said:

it’s a weird juxtaposition.  I meet a lot of 18-23 through volunteer work (not a youth minister!) and I think silently, “man four years in the marine corps would do you a lot of good.  Also, stay the fuck away from girls and guns ‘cause you’re a fucking mess. A walking date rape or active shooter event waiting to happen.”

And also meet kids that can code in their teens and whatnot.   All the best unis across the world are filled with 18-22 yos. 

[Captainant 27,669]

Just now, fattyflattie said:

I'd rather you just argue in good faith.  NO ONE can "get as much firepower as they like" as you stated.  It's just more bullshit hyperbole.  If I'm incorrect, point me to the closest MP5. 

also just to make sure you are self-aware of what you're doing fatty: literally less than 48 hours after a CHILD used an AR-15 to commit a murder because of how easily accessible it was to him, you're picking nits over the fact that there's not "unlimited" firepower and only "at least one gun" available. 

Give me a fucking break. This is why you get accused of threadshitting. You're being fucking ridiculous and crass.

[YGIFS 19,450]

Y’all remember the scene in Zero Dark Thirty where cIA director played by Gandolfini asks the analyst why they recruited her out of high school as they’re having lunch?  She says she knows why but isn’t supposed to talk about it.  

[Brisketexan 105,139]

Just now, fattyflattie said:

I'd rather you just argue in good faith.  NO ONE can "get as much firepower as they like" as you stated.  It's just more bullshit hyperbole.  If I'm incorrect, point me to the closest MP5. 

You are right.  My bad.  You cannot easily obtain a fully automatic weapon.  Belt-fed .50 cals are right out.  And I do concede that if a crazed shooter showed up with one of those on top of his Buick Skylark, or out his Vegas hotel room window, he could do even more damage than a guy with an AR and a vest full of 20-30 round mags.  So, they can't get MAXIMUM firepower.

I must also confess that ordinary civilians cannot obtain an Avenger 30mm gatling gun shooting depleted uranium rounds, taken right out of a decommissioned A-10, or a Hellfire missile.

So, how about I amend my statement to "as much semi-auto firepower as they want."  Would that semantic distinction help your head?  Because when it comes to THAT....it is, for the 100th time, EASIER TO DO NOW THAN IT WAS BEFORE SANDY HOOK.  You know.  Semi-auto firepower.  The firepower used to mow down dozens in moments in El Paso, Sutherland Springs, Allen, Pittsburgh, Buffalo, etc. etc.  THAT firepower.  It's super-easy to obtain.  In fact, it is ENCOURAGED, and lionized as what REAL freedomeaglefireworksflagpatriots should do.  It is also lionized by the entire incel community.

[B00M 6,416]

2 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

You are right.  My bad.  You cannot easily obtain a fully automatic weapon. 

Legally. Glock switches were mass produced in china and sold on Amazon for something like $25 as recently as 2021. The switch replaces the cover plate on the back of the slide so it’s a trivial install. Oh hey! You can apparently 3D print them, too. 

[fattyflattie 4,639]

34 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

You are right.  My bad.  You cannot easily obtain a fully automatic weapon.  Belt-fed .50 cals are right out.  And I do concede that if a crazed shooter showed up with one of those on top of his Buick Skylark, or out his Vegas hotel room window, he could do even more damage than a guy with an AR and a vest full of 20-30 round mags.  So, they can't get MAXIMUM firepower.

I must also confess that ordinary civilians cannot obtain an Avenger 30mm gatling gun shooting depleted uranium rounds, taken right out of a decommissioned A-10, or a Hellfire missile.

So, how about I amend my statement to "as much semi-auto firepower as they want."  Would that semantic distinction help your head?  Because when it comes to THAT....it is, for the 100th time, EASIER TO DO NOW THAN IT WAS BEFORE SANDY HOOK.  You know.  Semi-auto firepower.  The firepower used to mow down dozens in moments in El Paso, Sutherland Springs, Allen, Pittsburgh, Buffalo, etc. etc.  THAT firepower.  It's super-easy to obtain.  In fact, it is ENCOURAGED, and lionized as what REAL freedomeaglefireworksflagpatriots should do.  It is also lionized by the entire incel community.

The truth will set you free.  Remember that when you repeat the same little white lies you seem so fond of on the next thread.  Like the last 50 threads. And yea, 30mm and A-10s.   How about barrels shorter than 16".  Shotguns without buttstocks.  Any other of the dozens of benign rules that don't help paint your picture of reasonable.

36 minutes ago, Captainant said:

also just to make sure you are self-aware of what you're doing fatty: literally less than 48 hours after a CHILD used an AR-15 to commit a murder because of how easily accessible it was to him, you're picking nits over the fact that there's not "unlimited" firepower and only "at least one gun" available. 

I'm nit picking hyperbole that's being expressly used to sway political opinion, from someone who ABSOLUTELY AND UNEQUIVICALLY knows the difference, and knows what they are doing.  I would think purposely LYING would be considered shitposting, but I get it, he's on your team.  Aren't you against JuSt AsKiNg QuEsTiOnS types of bullshit clouding discussions?   

Yes a child used an AR15 that was on his buddies seat.  The same child would have used whatever firearm was on that seat, full stop.   But him using an old 870 or 9mm doesn't paint the right picture of a child with a SA rifle shooting up the Sonic.  

@DigglerontheHoof love you too.  All going to be made up on the gun thread sweetheart. 

Edited May 17, 2023 by fattyflattie

[DigglerontheHoof 21,199]

6 minutes ago, fattyflattie said:

@DigglerontheHoof love you too.  All going to be made up on the gun thread sweetheart. 

 

[High Plains Drifter 11,049]

 

Interesting article in the NYT. Reporter takes a bunch of different gun safety classes in different states. (instructors knew she was a reporter).

She feels that gun safety classes actually teach people to live in fear.

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/05/16/opinion/firearms-guns-america-safety.html

 

Officially, the message is caution. A line I heard from multiple instructors was: If you are not about to die in the next three seconds, don’t pull the trigger. If you are not 100 percent sure, then don’t shoot. But relentlessly harping on the dangers that surround us changes the way students assess those risks.

I experienced it myself.

On a recent night I saw a driver who didn’t appear to realize that he was going the wrong way on a one-way street. As the other car approached, I began to slow down, roll down my window and stick my hand out in a friendly gesture. Suddenly I worried the other driver might have a gun. How might he respond to someone slowing down a car and waving at him in the middle of the night? Would he shoot? Probably not. But it’s not the odds, I remember telling myself; it’s the consequences.

That’s the great irony of firearms training: In learning how to use a gun for self-defense, something that seems like it might give you confidence and a sense of safety, people end up feeling more afraid than before. “I knew the world was dangerous,” a student told me after class one day, “but this was a real wake-up call.” “He scared the daylights out of me,” I heard from another student, who went straight from class to a gun store. Others who already owned a gun told me the classes made them feel the gun should be bigger, with a larger caliber and more capacity.

 

Spoiler

I did not grow up around guns, but 10 years ago, I started attending firearms training classes. I wasn’t there to learn how to protect myself or my family. I was there to learn what was taught in the classes themselves, which a broad coalition of groups — including many police officers, Republican and Democratic legislators and gun violence prevention organizations — have hailed as a path out of the nation’s epidemic of violence.

I found something very different. The classes I attended trained students to believe that their lives are in constant danger. They prepared us to shoot without hesitation and avoid legal consequences. They instilled the kind of fear that has a corrosive effect on all interactions — and beyond that, on the fabric of our democracy.

I took 42 classes and conducted interviews with 52 instructors and 118 students, in traditionally red states like Texas as well as blue states like Massachusetts, in urban areas like Newark as well as rural Southern Illinois. (The instructors knew I was there to conduct research; in keeping with my university’s academic protocols, I had permission to take notes in class and to record interviews but not to publish anyone’s names.) Most of all, I immersed myself in firearms schools in Texas, where I live, that cater to people who wish to learn how to use guns for self-defense. Some instructors in these schools told me they have been involved in drafting public safety protocols or running active shooter drills for public school teachers. Some of these instructors’ students have gone on to open training programs of their own.

While American gun culture has diversified in recent years, the overwhelming majority of firearms instructors — in Texas it’s 75 percent — are white men. Many have a background in the military or law enforcement. Nationwide, more than 125,000 of them have taken a certification course offered by the National Rifle Association. Many states require instructors to complete additional training.

 

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First, the good news: Every firearms instructor I encountered was extremely serious about preventing accidents. When a student inadvertently pointed his gun at me for a moment, our instructor immediately chastised him. And when the student objected, saying he didn’t have his finger on the trigger, the instructor became livid and threatened to kick him out of class.

But teaching people how to avoid shooting someone by accident is a small part of what these classes are about. The primary lessons are about if and when to shoot someone on purpose. And this is where the trouble begins.

Instructors repeatedly told me that a big part of their job was to make people feel vulnerable, to make them aware of dangers they were not conscious of before to understand that bad things can happen at any time. One instructor told me he encourages students to carry their gun at all times. If students say they plan to leave it in the car, he responds, “So what you’re telling me is the only time you are ever going to get attacked is if you are in your car?”

 

The instructors describe a world teeming with violent and deranged individuals. And not just any individuals. The scenarios cluster around the public spaces of racially diverse cities. “More often than not,” an instructor who had been a high-ranking police officer said, the place you’re likely to be attacked is “in an urban part of society.” Another instructor, also a former police officer, tells students to keep their gas tanks filled at least halfway to avoid situations in which “it’s the middle of the night and you need to get gas in downtown Houston.”

Outside a restaurant in Austin, an instructor saw a disheveled man sitting on the curb and nudged me in the other direction, directing me to pick up the pace. He said he had detected “potential predatory behavior” and wasn’t sure if this man was a panhandler or someone about to stick a gun in our faces.

 

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Instructors repeatedly told me that statistics about crime are meaningless when it comes to the need to carry a gun. It’s not the odds, I heard on numerous occasions; it’s the consequences. I have been taught strategies for avoiding interactions with strangers. I have participated in scenario training sessions in which students carrying guns loaded with plastic ammunition enact mock burglaries, home invasions, mass shootings and attacks by Islamic terrorists. Repeatedly the lesson was that I ought to shoot even when my instincts might tell me otherwise.

For example, in one scenario, an instructor pretended to punch someone I know and care about in the head. The instructor’s back was toward me, so I held my fire. Later, I told him that I hadn’t had enough information to act. Wrong answer. Being punched in the head can be fatal, the instructor told me, so there was no time to wait. I had never heard someone advocate shooting an unarmed person in the back. The instructor did it with a sense of moral, legal and tactical clarity and conviction.

Officially, the message is caution. A line I heard from multiple instructors was: If you are not about to die in the next three seconds, don’t pull the trigger. If you are not 100 percent sure, then don’t shoot. But relentlessly harping on the dangers that surround us changes the way students assess those risks.

I experienced it myself.

On a recent night I saw a driver who didn’t appear to realize that he was going the wrong way on a one-way street. As the other car approached, I began to slow down, roll down my window and stick my hand out in a friendly gesture. Suddenly I worried the other driver might have a gun. How might he respond to someone slowing down a car and waving at him in the middle of the night? Would he shoot? Probably not. But it’s not the odds, I remember telling myself; it’s the consequences.

That’s the great irony of firearms training: In learning how to use a gun for self-defense, something that seems like it might give you confidence and a sense of safety, people end up feeling more afraid than before. “I knew the world was dangerous,” a student told me after class one day, “but this was a real wake-up call.” “He scared the daylights out of me,” I heard from another student, who went straight from class to a gun store. Others who already owned a gun told me the classes made them feel the gun should be bigger, with a larger caliber and more capacity.

 

just what we don't need: More scared pussies carrying more guns.

 

 

[YGIFS 19,450]

The same firms who fund firearms manufacturers fund portable training modules and fund chains of shooting ranges and fund marketing campaigns telling you of the lawless hellscape we now live in.  It’s not the NRA fulfilling this closed loop, it’s private equity assholes like me.  I keep you scared, I keep you armed, I keep you training, I keep you ready.  Fuck you, pay me.  
 

I can’t sell you anything based on the 9th amendment.  But I can make a shitton of cash convincing you that the 2nd amendment is the coolest way to show your patriotism.  

[Handcruser 2,805]

A red flag law that maybe, oh, I dunno, made it harder for someone who was actually drummed out of the military for being a psycopath to acquire an AR, might have helped.
But we can't have that either.  There is not a single gun regulation, not a single one, that the gun crowd won't find a reason to shoot down.  They SAY that are for/agree with common-sense regulation, but whenever ANY is proposed, they 1) say "no, not that one," and 2) never, ever offer an alternative that would address whatever "concern" they claim to have with the proposed regulation.

As figured - the voice of your resident arms dealer has not been heard.

[royiv 9,317]

4 minutes ago, Handcruser said:

As figured - the voice of your resident arms dealer has not been heard.

You can say whatever you want. It's your actions that count. You crawl back into your hole anytime you're asked for specifics of what you are doing to advance the reforms you claim to support.

Edited May 17, 2023 by royiv

[Handcruser 2,805]

You can say whatever you want. It's your actions that count. You crawl back into your hoke anytime you're asked for specifics of what you are doing to advance the reforms you claim to support.

Ok roy4. Man you got me - what have you done today to curb gun violence. Let’s see if your talk is being backed up. Don’t stray too far - you got suspended last time for running your mouth.

What have you done today?

[royiv 9,317]

1 minute ago, Handcruser said:

Ok roy4. Man you got me - what have you done today to curb gun violence. Let’s see if your talk is being backed up. Don’t stray too far - you got suspended last time for running your mouth.

What have you done today?

Today I have given money to two candidates for the US Senate that support gun reform. Maybe I'll make an additional donation in your name.

Now, answer the question of what you do to advance the gun reforms you claim to support. You do an excellent job of evading the question every time it's asked of you. 

[Handcruser 2,805]

Today I have given money to two candidates for the US Senate that support gun reform. Maybe I'll make an additional donation in your name.
Now, answer the question of what you do to advance the gun reforms you claim to support. You do an excellent job of evading the question every time it's asked of you. 

Today Ive done nothing except sell them. And they’re flying out the door.

When I find someone that shares my thoughts on gun control I will donate to their campaign. I’ll even let you find them for me and I’ll share my campaign contribution with you.

That should make you happy. And we can be friends again.

[wild_turkey 3,159]

it was a 12 year old

Poor little bastard was practically born a criminal. He just needed to get his hands on an AR-15 to solidify it.

Luckily, our great state of Texas makes it very easy for young people to achieve their potential.

[Brisketexan 105,139]

50 minutes ago, YGIFS said:

I can’t sell you anything based on the 9th amendment.  But I can make a shitton of cash convincing you that the 2nd amendment is the coolest way to show your patriotism.  

It's like you looked right past my investment proposal for capitalizing on the 3rd amendment by marketing a line of bed linens and such suitable for soldiers quartered in your home (with appropriate consent of the property owner, per the Constitution).  There's money to be made, and you're just leaving it on the table.

I call it "My Soldier's Pillow."

[wild_turkey 3,159]

Today Ive done nothing except sell them. And they’re flying out the door.

As far as I’m concerned, you are complicit in the next mass shooting. You are putting more guns out in the world and putting money in the hands of firearms manufacturers and the NRA, who then put money in the hands of politicians like Ted Cruz who actively oppose any form of solution. You are actively making the problem worse.

So congrats on that. Maybe you could look at the videos from Allen before you go to sleep tonight.

[Dahobbs 17,534]

2 hours ago, B00M said:

So they’re citizens, adults, they can serve in the military, they can vote for politicians that vote for war, they’re more likely than any other group to be a victim of crime, but they can’t own any gun until 25? 

They're also not allowed to rent a car until 24. I find it odd that some think being able to be in the military and having the right to own a gun should somehow be co-extensive. People in the military get training and have supervision. Their access to their military weapons is supervised and restricted. That isn't going to be true of a random 18-year old that is allowed to purchase a firearm. I don't see any reason to assume that former implies the latter should be allowed. 

[fattyflattie 4,639]

10 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

They're also not allowed to rent a car until 24. I find it odd that some think being able to be in the military and having the right to own a gun should somehow be co-extensive. People in the military get training and have supervision. Their access to their military weapons is supervised and restricted. That isn't going to be true of a random 18-year old that is allowed to purchase a firearm. I don't see any reason to assume that former implies the latter should be allowed. 

People can be drafted there.   That’s the rub. 

[YGIFS 19,450]

Plus the military offers a sense of purpose, of brotherhood, and of mission.  Yeah, there's guns.  But that's not the main point.  

What our society is getting really good at is convincing, non-military grade young males is that they are worthless incels who have had their America stolen from them by dark people.  And all we can offer them instead of a decent education and mental wellness is a really kickass gun, a cohort to shoot with, and a gut full of hate.  And because those guys are roaming the streets, pissed off, armed, and full of virginity...I sell the next generation older than them on arming themselves for self defense from active shooters and colored people in Chicago.  And sit back and count the cash.  

I do want to go back and amend a post I made about the only amendment you can really monetize (other than legal fees) in terms of merch/schwag/retail is the 2nd.  I forgot about the 21st, meaning you can sell 'Murica on alcohol.  And apparently a few companies have made a couple bucks doing it, and I say kudos.  But I like Brisket's idea of like an all-in-one Amendment Store.  Pillows for soldiers, guns for teens, and booze for the rest of us.  I mean, it's gonna make for a weird sampling room, but I think we can pull it off.  

Edited May 17, 2023 by YGIFS

[Don Johnson 4,753]

Is the 24 year old rental car thing a law or a policy for some of the rental car companies?

[royiv 9,317]

The draft argument is a really dumb one, but it’s really shooting to the top of the charts lately. Last time I checked, there hasn’t been a soul drafted in this country in 50 years.

[YGIFS 19,450]

13 minutes ago, Don Johnson said:

Is the 24 year old rental car thing a law or a policy for some of the rental car companies?

It's been an industry standard for decades.  Insurance companies also rate under 25 at different metrics.  Because without extreme supervision and training (like an NCO), apparently males under 25 do stupid and dangerous shit.  

2 minutes ago, royiv said:

The draft argument is a really dumb one, but it’s really shooting to the top of the charts lately. Last time I checked, there hasn’t been a soul drafted in this country in 50 years.

there was one?