The latest get your ass back in the office story: AT&T

[Zepol87 9174]

I only have to go in once or twice a month and my office is next to the ATT building, biggest issue I have now is the damn restaurants are packed as shit but I am not mad at more eye candy

[Macanudo 12946]

32 minutes ago, Neonmoon said:

This has nothing to do with "productivity" and all to do with Commercial Real Estate leases. 

Bingo.   There are two main reasons all of this has happened and real estate is one of them.   The other is good old fashioned "we've always done it this way (worked in the office)" bullshit.   C suite people don't trust worker bees to do their jobs unless they know where the physically sit.  Even though I physically sit in my home office, someone in the ivory tower can't stroll through our office building and see me. 

And the really fucking funny/sad thing about that is I can count on one hand the number of times I saw anyone from the C suite on my floor in the 9 years I worked in the office.  I never saw the CEO (who sat 9 floors above me) on my floor in those 9 years.   Being in the office the majority or all of the time is an antiquated mindset.   I still can't wrap my head around why more companies don't see remote work as a net boon.  It drastically increases the talent pool you can draw from.    Yes, reneogiating or terminating leases/owned buildings is a pain in the ass but it's not like they have to eliminate all of their floor space.  And how much of that space was sitting open/available pre-Covid anyway.  NYC and SF might have been full up but was Houston?   Dallas?   Seattle?   What about Kansas City, Salt Lake City or Charlotte?   

Companies that are adjusting to this and thinking big picture are going to win in the long run.  

[Biff Tannen 45578]

1 hour ago, Neonmoon said:

This has nothing to do with "productivity" and all to do with Commercial Real Estate leases. 

This this this this.  My former company had just leased a HUGE building right before Covid.  Literally no one needs to be at that office to do their job, but they forced us back to hybrid in 2022 and rumors are they are going to force full time at office next year.  Bold strategy Cotton.

[BabaYaga 15238]

1 minute ago, Biff Tannen said:

This this this this.  My former company had just leased a HUGE building right before Covid.  Literally no one needs to be at that office to do their job, but they forced us back to hybrid in 2022 and rumors are they are going to force full time at office next year.  Bold strategy Cotton.

Yep.  Same happened to me - told them to kick rocks, went back into consulting and working with start-ups.  

[Homercles 10205]

1 hour ago, MonkeyDoughnut said:

It's true but it would result in ...

less airplane travel

less vehicles

less restaurants

less clothing retailer/producers

less oil/gas demands

less service industries

less construction

less employees

less money

So give more of my money to big corporations…got it.  
 

The money I save goes into more pleasure travel, clothes, eating out / better food / delivery, turn that office real estate into housing to ease pricing = there’s your construction, and fuck oil/gas, they can either evolve like everyone else does or slowly die out like the buggy industry…

(I have a special hatred for industries that cry to the government and fuck over employees in rough times, but milk the public for every cent they can during booms while handing it to execs and shareholders)

Again I feel like all my pissy posts lately are directed at organizations/people who fail to recognize that things change (gender views, technology, climate, etc).  And I’m not saying everyone should WFH…but blanket statements and policies are reflective of the same shit that has people losing rights in general:  “fuck you, my way is the right and only way”

Edited August 8, 2023 by Homercles

[gyroprotagonist 2591]

yeah, we had record sales/profits when we were 100% working from home due to covid.  our business benefitted greatly from people getting covid bux from Uncle Sam.  

we had been working 2 home/3 office for a while and got the  notice last week we are going to 1 home/4 office starting Q4ish and the 'excuse' was that profits are down so we need more 'collaboration'.  

[Fudge Nuggets 19166]

1 hour ago, MonkeyDoughnut said:

It's true but it would result in ...

less airplane travel

less vehicles

less restaurants

less clothing retailer/producers

less oil/gas demands

less service industries

less construction

less employees

less money

 

All we would have is some incredibly productive people doing all the work from their houses to support everyone else who isn't. For the highly educated/experienced WFH can be great, but what about all the people who don't have that education/experience, everything you are targeting is where they tend to work or get experience.

What on earth makes you think "they" want any of that shit?

[Sandman 3403]

28 minutes ago, Homercles said:

The money I save goes into more pleasure travel, clothes, eating out / b

I started rotating in May 2020. My annual and sick leave started stacking up like a mofo, as I didn't need to take off as much. I now take a nice vacation every 12-18 months. I had so much extra money that my wife and I can eat out more or buy new clothes more often. I'm a sneakerhead/shoe collector and I've bought more shit than I care to admit. 

I bought a brand new car in April last year, still haven't hit 10K miles yet. My fuel costs are way down too. So yeah, those big corps are gonna get their money if they just shut up. 

[Deej 76643]

Just now, Sandman said:

My fuel costs are way down too

Maybe they should cut your pay then? 

[Sandman 3403]

26 minutes ago, Deej said:

Maybe they should cut your pay then? 

Well, I shit more when I'm working from home. Should they pay me more for my increased TP and water usage? I also use my own electricity to power my work PC, and use my personal cell phone. Should I get reimbursed for that?

[AUS-97HORN 11733]

In May, my company strongly "suggested" that we return to the office 3 days a week if we live less than 60 mins away.

so far I have gotten a medical exemption to not have to come in due to a fucked up knee. 

But Ive got a teammate lives near me that goes in 3 days a week. Hes already complained mightily about how much extra hes paying in expenses per month. He said its getting close to $450/ mo.  At first I was like BS, but he broke it out.

Its about a 30 miles roundtrip from the office to his house.  He's paying $7/ day in tolls, about $18-25 per day for coffee and lunch, putting 90 miles a week extra mileage on his car.  He figures hes using extra 4 gallons of gas a week and he had to increase his insurance yearly miles driving by 4,500 - which came out to like $25 more per month in insurance coverage.

add that up,  say $22/day for lunch/coffee and add around $4 worth of gas used, and hes spending $33/day x 3 x4.  +25mo for extra insurance, and  that comes out to ~$420ish in a 4 week month.    plus vehicle wear/tear

They are literally costing him $5k (after tax dollars) a year to come into the office to do the same job that he did perfectly fine for 3 years straight 100% remote.

Oh yeah and none of us got a COLA adjustment this year.

He's already implied that hes been interviewing.  And I cant blame him, combined with the lack of COLA, hes probably close to $10k less buying power this year vs last.

 

[Deej 76643]

1 minute ago, Sandman said:

Well, I shit more when I'm working from home. Should they pay me more for my increased TP and water usage? I also use my own electricity to power my work PC, and use my personal cell phone. Should I get reimbursed for that?

Stop eating so much. Shit less. Surfing Surly during work hours on you home PC and personal phone is probably a wash since you aren't doing it at the office. 

[Sandman 3403]

4 minutes ago, AUS-97HORN said:

about $18-25 per day for coffee and lunch, putting 90 miles a week extra mileage on his car.  He figures hes using extra 4 gallons of gas a week and he had to increase his insurance yearly miles driving by 4,500 - which came out to like $25 more per month in insurance coverage.

Your teammate sounds dumb for calling his insurance company to rat himself out. Does he go by the police station to admit to speeding and cut them a check?

Also, he could bring a lunch to work and drink water, if he's that hard up.

[CHIEF 5072]

2 hours ago, MonkeyDoughnut said:

It's true but it would result in ...

less airplane travel

less vehicles

less restaurants

less clothing retailer/producers

less oil/gas demands

less service industries

less construction

less employees

less money

 

All we would have is some incredibly productive people doing all the work from their houses to support everyone else who isn't. For the highly educated/experienced WFH can be great, but what about all the people who don't have that education/experience, everything you are targeting is where they tend to work or get experience.

That's what I meant by no on-site production (manufacturing, industrial, civil and residential services, food services, doctors, dentists, etc.) It would only work for those that can do their job from home (programmers, help desk, inside sales, paralegal, professional assistants, etc.)

We are already in a no population growth situation, here, in the US, with declining populations in many other parts of the World (China, Russia, Japan, and many Western European countries). Its time to bring some of those manufacturing jobs back home, and to the Western Hemisphere. High end manufacturing, like microchips, components for the military industrial complex and the like, here, in the US. All the cheap China shit can be manufactured in Mexico, and Central America.

[BabaYaga 15238]

6 minutes ago, Sandman said:

drink water,

[Zepol87 9174]

1 hour ago, Biff Tannen said:

This this this this.  My former company had just leased a HUGE building right before Covid.  Literally no one needs to be at that office to do their job, but they forced us back to hybrid in 2022 and rumors are they are going to force full time at office next year.  Bold strategy Cotton.

Yea my company is spending stupid god damn money demoing and building 2 floors in a building in Addison for some stupid god damn reason. Early numbers are around 15 million but it’s gonna go way up, no way they are spending that to let everyone work from home next year. It’s bullshit

[Samson's Wig 3182]

Having operated with an entirely remote work force for well over a decade now, I've seen the good and the bad.   Everyone on our staff has a minimum of a bachelor's, most with a terminal degree (the point being these are educated individuals).  Over the years slightly fewer than half the hires have been able to handle working from home successfully.  For some, it goes well for a year or two before excess liberties are taken and their work suffers.  We've figured out how to pinpoint the traits that are more likely to lead to a positive outcome, so the numbers have improved over the years, but on the whole I'd say that WFH is great for about half of people, but a slight majority do not actually handle it well.  The one thing I know for sure is that almost everyone thinks they're more efficient working from home than at the office, even when evidence points to the contrary.  E.g., show me a parent of children under 15 who claims to be more efficient at home and I'll show you a liar (or at least someone lacking self-awareness).

Generally speaking, management tends to be willfully obtuse and employees tend to be whiny bitches.  Everyone on all sides is so fucking entitled that we're headed down a path that will lead to misery and degradation for all, no matter where you park your ass to "work". 

[Biff Tannen 45578]

8 minutes ago, Samson's Wig said:

Having operated with an entirely remote work force for well over a decade now, I've seen the good and the bad.   Everyone on our staff has a minimum of a bachelor's, most with a terminal degree (the point being these are educated individuals).  Over the years slightly fewer than half the hires have been able to handle working from home successfully.  For some, it goes well for a year or two before excess liberties are taken and their work suffers.  We've figured out how to pinpoint the traits that are more likely to lead to a positive outcome, so the numbers have improved over the years, but on the whole I'd say that WFH is great for about half of people, but a slight majority do not actually handle it well.  The one thing I know for sure is that almost everyone thinks they're more efficient working from home than at the office, even when evidence points to the contrary.  E.g., show me a parent of children under 15 who claims to be more efficient at home and I'll show you a liar (or at least someone lacking self-awareness).

Generally speaking, management tends to be willfully obtuse and employees tend to be whiny bitches.  Everyone on all sides is so fucking entitled that we're headed down a path that will lead to misery and degradation for all, no matter where you park your ass to "work". 

Everyone I know that has kids LOVED going back to the office. Us childless people revel working from home. To me, it’s just about being a professional. Figure out what works best for you and perform and there should be no issues. 

[Brisketexan 104792]

7 minutes ago, Samson's Wig said:

Having operated with an entirely remote work force for well over a decade now, I've seen the good and the bad.   Everyone on our staff has a minimum of a bachelor's, most with a terminal degree (the point being these are educated individuals).  Over the years slightly fewer than half the hires have been able to handle working from home successfully.  For some, it goes well for a year or two before excess liberties are taken and their work suffers.  We've figured out how to pinpoint the traits that are more likely to lead to a positive outcome, so the numbers have improved over the years, but on the whole I'd say that WFH is great for about half of people, but a slight majority do not actually handle it well.  The one thing I know for sure is that almost everyone thinks they're more efficient working from home than at the office, even when evidence points to the contrary.  E.g., show me a parent of children under 15 who claims to be more efficient at home and I'll show you a liar (or at least someone lacking self-awareness).

Generally speaking, management tends to be willfully obtuse and employees tend to be whiny bitches.  Everyone on all sides is so fucking entitled that we're headed down a path that will lead to misery and degradation for all, no matter where you park your ass to "work". 

A whole lot of this - great post.

Everyone says they are super-duper productive and reliable working from home.  Some folks are absolutely right about that.  Others are absolutely wrong about it.  I've seen it first hand (and I've even had to litigate about the results).  Many people made do during the pandemic, and did fine, because they HAD to (their jobs truly depended on them showing that they could continue operating and producing remotely).  Now, not so much - the desperation and drive isn't there, so there's a lot more slacking off.  And, even in the pandemic, there was lost attention to detail, checking each other's work directly, bouncing ideas off of each other in real-time, etc. 

These rules aren't the same across every industry.  There are some jobs that can on an almost 100% basis easily be done WFH, just like there are others that 100% need to be done on site.  And then there's a whole lot in between, with much variation.  As a litigator, I can comfortably say that we function much better in person than remotely.  We all do work remotely from time to time, but as a rule, we work together in the office.  And my staff shares this assessment (as in, when we are interviewing a new professional, they urge me to emphasize that we are an in-person group).  Again, it's not one-size-fits-all, but that cuts both ways.  I see the massive pushback of "anyone who insists on an office environment is full of bullshit" as wrongheaded, as wrongheaded as anyone who argues that every person in every job should work in an office.

[sidis 9778]

3 hours ago, MonkeyDoughnut said:

It's true but it would result in ...

less airplane travel (correct!)

less fewer vehicles

less fewer restaurants

less fewer clothing retailer/producers

less oil/gas demands

less fewer service industries

less construction (correct!)

less fewer employees

less money (correct!)

[MissingInAction 24870]

I've got a new guy that is incapable of working unsupervised.  A total POS lazy cunt. Can't wait to drop the axe.

[Brisketexan 104792]

Just now, MissingInAction said:

I've got a new guy that is incapable of working unsupervised.  A total POS lazy cunt. Can't wait to drop the axe.

There's some of this.  Every person says "I can totally be trusted with X.  I actually work BETTER with X!"  Just like every kid said "mom, dad, you can totally leave town this weekend and trust me not to do anything stupid."  Sometimes, it's true.  Sometimes, it's not.  Some people end up doing good work....in at least a somewhat supervised environment where they are accountable in real-time for their work.

And beyond that, some work just benefits from in-person interaction, bouncing ideas off each other in real-time, etc.  It's not about the people and their self-discipline, it's about the job.

[MonkeyDoughnut 10186]

Just now, sidis said:

3 hours ago, MonkeyDoughnut said:

It's true but it would result in ...

less airplane travel (correct!)

less fewer vehicles

less fewer restaurants

less fewer clothing retailer/producers

less oil/gas demands

less fewer service industries

less construction (correct!)

less fewer employees

less money (correct!)

Damn 33%

[Biff Tannen 45578]

18 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

A whole lot of this - great post.

Everyone says they are super-duper productive and reliable working from home.  Some folks are absolutely right about that.  Others are absolutely wrong about it.  I've seen it first hand (and I've even had to litigate about the results).  Many people made do during the pandemic, and did fine, because they HAD to (their jobs truly depended on them showing that they could continue operating and producing remotely).  Now, not so much - the desperation and drive isn't there, so there's a lot more slacking off.  And, even in the pandemic, there was lost attention to detail, checking each other's work directly, bouncing ideas off of each other in real-time, etc. 

These rules aren't the same across every industry.  There are some jobs that can on an almost 100% basis easily be done WFH, just like there are others that 100% need to be done on site.  And then there's a whole lot in between, with much variation.  As a litigator, I can comfortably say that we function much better in person than remotely.  We all do work remotely from time to time, but as a rule, we work together in the office.  And my staff shares this assessment (as in, when we are interviewing a new professional, they urge me to emphasize that we are an in-person group).  Again, it's not one-size-fits-all, but that cuts both ways.  I see the massive pushback of "anyone who insists on an office environment is full of bullshit" as wrongheaded, as wrongheaded as anyone who argues that every person in every job should work in an office.

If the job literally only needs a computer/phone (one and the same now), there is no need for an office. Once a week for team meetings?  Ok. If the rest of the time I literally don’t need to talk to anyone in my office?  I do not need to be there. 

[Brisketexan 104792]

10 minutes ago, Biff Tannen said:

If the job literally only needs a computer/phone (one and the same now), there is no need for an office. Once a week for team meetings?  Ok. If the rest of the time I literally don’t need to talk to anyone in my office?  I do not need to be there. 

Sure.

I think that a lot of people who think their job is that are not entirely correct.  Again, it's a spectrum.  There's a lot of variation between "we have to be face-to-face 8 hours a day" and "one conference call a week for 5 minutes gets it done."

Our job, for example, absolutely allows for periodic WFH, even for days at a time.  But as a general practice, it functions BETTER, at lower risk, if you are largely in-person with your colleagues with whom you work in regular collaboration.  Not all jobs are the same.

[Biff Tannen 45578]

2 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Sure.

I think that a lot of people who think their job is that are not entirely correct.  Again, it's a spectrum.  There's a lot of variation between "we have to be face-to-face 8 hours a day" and "one conference call a week for 5 minutes gets it done."

Our job, for example, absolutely allows for periodic WFH, even for days at a time.  But as a general practice, it functions BETTER, at lower risk, if you are largely in-person with your colleagues with whom you work in regular collaboration.  Not all jobs are the same.

For sure. Mine required ZERO collaboration. Literally no one had influence on me getting my work done. Yet they are going to force full time back to office next year. That’s pure corporate peasant crushing. 

[Grade of D as in David 13253]

For those getting pushed back into the office for "productivity" reasons, you should all start booking shit tons of travel to meet with clients, partners, etc. So much so that you are never in the office.

 

If face to face is needed for better interoffice productivity, then face to face with clients is even more important. 

[Biff Tannen 45578]

Meanwhile, these guys are working their asses off in this brutal heat. Just for some perspective. 
 

 

[hobbes2702 12985]

3 hours ago, Neonmoon said:

This has nothing to do with "productivity" and all to do with Commercial Real Estate leases. 

[Patricio Swayze 17058]

Meanwhile, these guys are working their asses off in this brutal heat. Just for some perspective. 
 
 

Looks like a surly 4runner photo bomb.

[Snake Diggity 4614]

1 hour ago, Samson's Wig said:

Having operated with an entirely remote work force for well over a decade now, I've seen the good and the bad.   Everyone on our staff has a minimum of a bachelor's, most with a terminal degree (the point being these are educated individuals).  Over the years slightly fewer than half the hires have been able to handle working from home successfully.  For some, it goes well for a year or two before excess liberties are taken and their work suffers.  We've figured out how to pinpoint the traits that are more likely to lead to a positive outcome, so the numbers have improved over the years, but on the whole I'd say that WFH is great for about half of people, but a slight majority do not actually handle it well.  The one thing I know for sure is that almost everyone thinks they're more efficient working from home than at the office, even when evidence points to the contrary.  E.g., show me a parent of children under 15 who claims to be more efficient at home and I'll show you a liar (or at least someone lacking self-awareness).

Generally speaking, management tends to be willfully obtuse and employees tend to be whiny bitches.  Everyone on all sides is so fucking entitled that we're headed down a path that will lead to misery and degradation for all, no matter where you park your ass to "work". 

Fucking bullshit.  I have 2 kids under 10.  Would you rather have an employee that is constantly taking half days or full days PTO to run kids to doctor appts or summer camp or whatever other bullshit that would require someone to leave the office and run across town (or stay home for half/entire day), or someone who is able to work a full day AND get all that shit done?

Perfect example this week: both my kids are home because there were no camps available and school hasn’t started yet.  Instead of me having to take a half day (or full day) off to watch them, I’ve gotten a full work day in (9 client calls) while checking in on the kids when I can.  During the schoolyear, I’m able to leave the house, pick my kids up from school, and be back online within 20 minutes.  Throw in a commute to downtown and that’s easily over an hour.

You can call me a liar but fuck you then because not only are you an asshole, you’re dead-ass wrong.

[CHIEF 5072]

At my wife's company, WFH is a privilege that you must earn. If you can show that you can get as much accomplished at home, as you did in a supervised setting, then you earn that privilege. If your productivity goes down, it's back to the office. She has one guy that will never be able to work from home. Luckily his Dad doesn't have the room in his apartment for an office, so he goes in every day and keeps him productive. They are able to operate their whole Fortune 500 company out of an office space with only four offices at the executive level. They will rotate new hires in for training and put them in one of their small regional offices, if they work out, they are offered the opportunity to WFH, and their productivity is monitored.

CHIEF 

[Snake Diggity 4614]

10 years from now, the few dumbfuck managers/execs who pushed back against WFH who still have jobs are gonna look around their offices and wonder “why do we only have shitty employees who can’t work independently and don’t have any other options but to work for our failing company?”

[Homercles 10205]

13 minutes ago, CHIEF said:

At my wife's company, WFH is a privilege that you must earn. If you can show that you can get as much accomplished at home, as you did in a supervised setting, then you earn that privilege. If your productivity goes down, it's back to the office. She has one guy that will never be able to work from home. Luckily his Dad doesn't have the room in his apartment for an office, so he goes in every day and keeps him productive. They are able to operate their whole Fortune 500 company out of an office space with only four offices at the executive level. They will rotate new hires in for training and put them in one of their small regional offices, if they work out, they are offered the opportunity to WFH, and their productivity is monitored.

CHIEF 

I am absolutely all for this kind of WFH architecture.  It should be role, tenure, maturity and character dependent…not unilaterally handed down   

I’ve been at the same company for 20 years, in the same role for 5, and my chain of command lives in either Boston or Ireland.  Have gone in to meet interns, or whiteboard big projects, or wherever else needed.  

Making me, in my personal circumstances, come into the office to find a hotel cube nowhere near my peers and an office with minimal services…is stupid. 

Edited August 8, 2023 by Homercles

[DaysOff 7919]

31 minutes ago, Patricio Swayze said:

Looks like a surly 4runner photo bomb.

 

Blackout package. Gross.

[Updawg 2262]

Looks like a surly 4runner photo bomb.

Getting a crown burger?

[Brisketexan 104792]

1 hour ago, Grade of D as in David said:

For those getting pushed back into the office for "productivity" reasons, you should all start booking shit tons of travel to meet with clients, partners, etc. So much so that you are never in the office.

 

If face to face is needed for better interoffice productivity, then face to face with clients is even more important. 

While I think posted as snark, it's also correct.  I found that deliberately re-connecting with clients face-to-face has been incredibly important.  If there's a "personal services" element to your business, it's actually important.  Humans are hardwired to be more connectional in person -- screens are not a substitute for that.  Connection builds familiarity and trust, which are essential in a lot of businesses (not all, but plenty of them).  If personal connection with clients will help your business, it's absolutely something that your people should be doing.

It all comes back to balance.  I find a lot of the intensely focused worship at the altar of "WFH is the shit, and fuck you if you even think otherwise" just as foolish as the brainless "we paid to lease all this space back in 2015, so order people back in here to fill it, even though they're just as productive if not more so when they WFH" position.  Take the position that makes the best sense for your business and employees.  Which may be anywhere on the spectrum of 100% WFH to 100% work on-site, to any number of hybrid approaches in between.

Edited August 8, 2023 by Brisketexan

[Steel Shank 9417]

I can lay pipe just as easily in an office as I can from home.

[Samson's Wig 3182]

1 hour ago, Snake Diggity said:

Fucking bullshit.  I have 2 kids under 10.  Would you rather have an employee that is constantly taking half days or full days PTO to run kids to doctor appts or summer camp or whatever other bullshit that would require someone to leave the office and run across town (or stay home for half/entire day), or someone who is able to work a full day AND get all that shit done?

Perfect example this week: both my kids are home because there were no camps available and school hasn’t started yet.  Instead of me having to take a half day (or full day) off to watch them, I’ve gotten a full work day in (9 client calls) while checking in on the kids when I can.  During the schoolyear, I’m able to leave the house, pick my kids up from school, and be back online within 20 minutes.  Throw in a commute to downtown and that’s easily over an hour.

You can call me a liar but fuck you then because not only are you an asshole, you’re dead-ass wrong.

lol - see my comment regarding whiny bitches.  Holy shit.

* I too work from home with kids, and you need a fucking vacation. 

[Sandman 3403]

3 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

Humans are hardwired to be more connectional in person

That's why I'm kinda glad I have a hybrid schedule, every other week in the office. It's good to see coworkers and get some of that esprit de corps. 

 

[Js1 85162]

10 minutes ago, Sandman said:

That's why I'm kinda glad I have a hybrid schedule, every other week in the office. It's good to see coworkers and get some of that esprit de corps. 

 

I fill my quota of humanity’s dregs at the gym in the morning. Then I go about my day not interacting with humans in person

[choripan 790]

My opinion -- based on managing a few hundred people over my career, in in-person, hybrid, and WFH settings, plus a bunch of relevant education -- is that the overwhelming majority of people who will be productive in-person will be productive WFH, and the overwhelming majority of people that would be relatively unproductive WFH would be similarly unproductive in-person (calling useless meetings, long chats in offices, long chats around the breakroom/coffee machine, half-hour long shits, etc.).

Of course, some people will behave quite differently, but I think it's more about underlying character, personality, and discipline in the overwhelming majority of cases.

[NotActuallyALonghorn 4968]

Yeah, but you can take work calls on the shifter if you WFH. You can do it at the office too, it's just a bit awkward when the stall next to you flushes.

[Neonmoon 38127]

2 hours ago, choripan said:

is that the overwhelming majority of people who will be productive in-person will be productive WFH, and the overwhelming majority of people that would be relatively unproductive WFH would be similarly unproductive in-person

This is the correct answer. 

[Patricio Swayze 17058]

This is the correct answer. 

This is the correct answer.

I switched jobs a few weeks ago and went from a 9/80 schedule with two days in the office to a 4/10 schedule all on-site. I’ll take it because I enjoy having every Friday off, but really wish I had at least one day at home.

Again, this isn’t about productivity at all. This is about real estate and energy costs. I mentioned it before, but case in point:

The firm I am at now uses resources in India, but the core team and management is in Houston. How is that any different than hybrid or work from home? In fact, I think it is LESS productive for a couple of reasons:

The time difference between India and Texas is prohibitive to collaboration, even via Teams.

Second, for a variety of reasons, this lends itself to more rework.

Even more comical is I might not even see my manager on any given day and I rarely see the client (they are in our office as well, but I rarely talk to them face to face).

It’s horseshit that we can’t do this on a hybrid schedule.

[Captainant 27521]

13 minutes ago, Patricio Swayze said:

The firm I am at now uses resources in India, but the core team and management is in Houston. How is that any different than hybrid or work from home? In fact, I think it is LESS productive for a couple of reasons:

The time difference between India and Texas is prohibitive to collaboration, even via Teams.

Second, for a variety of reasons, this lends itself to more rework.

Not to mention the constant retraining of those overseas resources as their 6mo contract ends and a new person is there now, not reading your run books or applying any critical thinking to the task at hand. I swear to God, just taking the first response from CoPilot or CodeWhisperer gives a much better and more reusable result than most code I see from offshore contract teams. And then heaven forbid when something should break if the don't have instructions for that specific scenario for how to address it, then it's just gonna sit busted until they escalate up the chain to troubleshoot a fucking OOM error

 

Uhg. Shit drives me nuts. Save money by buying shitty overseas contract labor, and then waste it on a big unnecessary office that you force your workers back into for zero marginal utility benefit to actually producing what you sell. Just masturbatory management following the steps of what jack welch did without understanding where that management style leads longterm

[Guest]

21 hours ago, Neonmoon said:

This has nothing to do with "productivity" and all to do with Commercial Real Estate leases. 

Yep, and additionally the adjoining customer service industry.  Son works in downtown NYC.  Restaurants, coffee shops, and basically everyone are crying bigtime about their lost business since Covid.  :We need people back so we can stay in business..."

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/09/16/new-york-city-is-nearing-the-tipping-point-in-return-to-office-work.html

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/20/business/return-to-office-remote-work.html

[Macanudo 12946]

44 minutes ago, Patricio Swayze said:

This is the correct answer.

I switched jobs a few weeks ago and went from a 9/80 schedule with two days in the office to a 4/10 schedule all on-site. I’ll take it because I enjoy having every Friday off, but really wish I had at least one day at home.

Again, this isn’t about productivity at all. This is about real estate and energy costs. I mentioned it before, but case in point:

The firm I am at now uses resources in India, but the core team and management is in Houston. How is that any different than hybrid or work from home? In fact, I think it is LESS productive for a couple of reasons:

The time difference between India and Texas is prohibitive to collaboration, even via Teams.

Second, for a variety of reasons, this lends itself to more rework.

Even more comical is I might not even see my manager on any given day and I rarely see the client (they are in our office as well, but I rarely talk to them face to face).

It’s horseshit that we can’t do this on a hybrid schedule.

I interviewed for a job with a large brokerage firm a few months ago.   The position would be on-site at their Houston regional office.  1 day at home, 4 days in the office with 25-50% of the time traveling.   The person I would have reported to is in Chicago and all the direct reports are spread across 10 or so regional offices.   Those people support individual offices sprinkled throughout their region and all of them have the same 1/4 mix with routine travel (about 50% of their time) to the other offices.

Even though everyone on is in different cities with their business partners being all over the place, butts in seats is needed.   Bwahahahaha.

[Captainant 27521]

20 minutes ago, slorch said:

Yep, and additionally the adjoining customer service industry.  Son works in downtown NYC.  Restaurants, coffee shops, and basically everyone are crying bigtime about their lost business since Covid.  :We need people back so we can stay in business..."

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/09/16/new-york-city-is-nearing-the-tipping-point-in-return-to-office-work.html

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/20/business/return-to-office-remote-work.html

What a unique mindset: the market should adjust to your business's needs, not the other way around

[MonkeyDoughnut 10186]

3 minutes ago, Captainant said:

What a unique mindset: the market should adjust to your business's needs, not the other way around

Isn't that mindset the same one employees are using against companies asking them to return to offices.